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What should be done if Dems screw up and lose 06 too?

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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:26 PM
Original message
Poll question: What should be done if Dems screw up and lose 06 too?
I am sincerely hoping they win, and they have made some steps toward actually standing for something including pulling out of Iraq.

Nonetheless, it's not hard to imagine them throwing away a potential easy victory through timidity, or boldness followed by an apology, or a GOP opponent correctly pointing out all the times that a Democrat now critical of Bush voted with the fascists over the last couple of years.

Kerry essentially made the election close enough for Bush to steal by not being blunter about the war and critical of Bush to his face when he had a chance during the debates and couldn't be edited to pieces by Fox News. By fall of 2004, it was not only obvious Bush lied about the reasons he invaded Iraq, but the real reasons could have easily been pointed out since he gave the oil concessions in Iraq to his cronies who were screwing us at the pump, and of course, the Abu Ghraib scandal had broken out the previous spring, and documents showed Bush and top cabinet officials approved of those uncontestable war crimes. Kerry's quick concession in the face of vote rigging and vote fraud may have been pragmatically correct, but nonetheless dispirited those who put a lot of energy into campaigning for him.

If Democrats hold back again, what should be done?

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. We should do nothing.
Edited on Thu Jun-29-06 07:34 PM by Selatius
If the Democratic leadership feels that it should "keep its powder dry" at such a critical moment, then there really isn't much alternative except to accept what the leadership says.

We live in a two-party duopoly. There is very little chance of dis-entrenching an established political party and replacing it with a new one. You're left with a choice between a Democrat and a Republican at the ballot box. Voting for a third party will simply be cutting your own throats by the very rules of the game the people chose to play by when it ratified the US Constitution in its current form.

If neither Democratic nor Republican leaders have an answer, then there is no answer the government can offer to the people. It is then up to the people to decide whether it should let that continue or formulate an answer of their own.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. spoken like a true anarchist--if there was a way to ignore them I would
but they determine whether I can afford to go to the doctor, what my tax money goes to, and whether any kids I have will be drafted to kill Iranians, Iraqis, Venezuelans, and eventually even Saudis.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
85. The amerikan duopoly has nothing to do with the The Constitution.
I hope that if I'm wrong, somebody will correct me, but there is nothing in The Constitution that restricts us to two parties, it just seems to be all that the sheeple can grasp.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #85
88. Yep--propagandist Edward Bernays said people hate too much choice
But this is largely imposed on us by pols who don't want too much competition or ideas in play beyond a very narrow range.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. Other- take to the streets to protest the election fraud
cuz that is the only way it's gonna happen.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
73. You said it. Republicans: Stealing Elections Since 2000 (at least)
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
80. "taking it to the streets" only goes so far
Most instances of it these days have been cute couple-day long, ANSWER-infested protests, after which everyone goes home, content with A Job Well Done and Their Part Played. Protests these days are as much social events and everyone's-pet-cause things as anything else these days.

If folks want to have some kinda influence, they really should start seeing if they can't keep four or five digits' worth of people someplace for days, weeks, or even months. That and have a protest be about an issue, as opposed to protesting the Iraq war or election fraud or Bush's latest decision to become President Andrew Jackson II being drowned out by every other progressive and supposedly-progressive cause out there.

You want people to believe you're serious? Take to the streets and stay there, in large numbers, for greatly extended periods of time. I don't care if you've got a midterm to study for, or if you get tired, or if it's rainy out, or whatthefuckever. People need to start deciding between their comfortable routines and the state of their country and society.

Or maybe just start ignoring the fucking "first amendment zones."

Or start thinking about what the options are if it does turn out that simply waving signs and "raising awarness" in symbolic actions is no longer effective. The sixties have passed; it's time people recognized that.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
93. MASSIVE direct action (eom)
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Chipper Chat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. Revolution the only realistic choice.
Not with guns or protests in the streets, but by banding together the progressive states and forming a new country free of religious bigotry. Leave Jesusland to the Falwell Fundies (Bush can be president for life).
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Chipper Chat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. LOL - Dumbfuckistan!
Those mountainous areas of Idaho & Wyoming will be crowded with fundie refugees when it becomes "Bush's Last Stand."
:rofl:
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badgerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
41. PLEASE tell me 'Stan' and his brother are photoshopped...
Those are some really scary looking guys...as in posssessing only three brain cells...and they have never met each other.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #41
49. those are Karl Roves gimps he keeps locked up in his basement
He tests all his propaganda ideas on them before he uses them on the public.

And then plays DELIVERANCE with them.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
48. No way that *couldn't* involve guns, though...
I suppose it's a question of what your tolerance is for "enough is enough," and how far you're willing to go to redress grievances at that point.

(D'ohyeah, that's a generalized "you," not you in particular, CC. This thought's been bouncing through my head for days for some reason.)
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
4. The Democratic caucus isn't about to screw up
They will take one or both Houses. If they don't, the elections were stolen, and that's quite different from "screwing up."

There will be some who think some candidates are too liberal, others who think some candidates are too conservative, but they have a good sense of their constituencies and understand the local nature of politics.

BushCo would have to give every American at least five grand to quell the dissatisfaction, and he ain't got that kind of dough.

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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. stolen is screwing up--they could make the margin unstealable or
in states like California, they could have much more vigorously and effectively fought the machines since we are the majority. Instead, they let the GOP crucify our secretary of state who was working on the issue, and let Arnold appoint a replacement who keeps trying to bring the machines back in thru the back door.

I'm worried that the Dems at the national level are doing the same thing. They want to win, but if someone greases their palm to look away from an issue like electronic voting, they will do so.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Economic populism works, but very few are biting
Edited on Thu Jun-29-06 07:45 PM by Selatius
A message for the working class people of America is what made FDR so damn popular, but nobody wants to emulate that. It's too dangerous to the monied interests.

Eventually, people will erupt if they are continually ignored.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. You get into bullet in the head or plane wreck territory then, or worse...
the "Dean Scream" character assassination based on nothing. That should be in some kind of PR hall of fame for smears.
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #11
47. Hey, I've been trying populism...
But, the darn threads keep scrolling down to the back page.

Maybe more nude pictures?
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #47
52. you first
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #52
65. Okay, here goes nothing...


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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #65
87. you need to cut down on the carbs or buy a burkha
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
78. Try combining economic populism with SOCIAL LIBERTARIANISM
That, I think, would be a winner. But we can't be half-assed. We need to stand up for ending the drug war, the right to physician assisted suicide, the right of consenting adults to damn well read, watch, and do what they want insofar as it involves, again, consenting adults, and the concept that a citizen's body doesn't belong to the state or the church, it belongs to him or her alone.

Tie that in with clear support for a liveable minimum wage, a SPHC system, and a manhattan-style project to develop clean, renewable sources of energy, making us the leader in that area again and CREATING NEW JOBS.

I think that has a much better chance of succeeding, as opposed to "moderate" more-of-the-same economic corporatism combined with pandering to the religious right.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
31. Well, in a lot of races, that's happening, look at Webb in VA
He's up George Felix Allen's ass, with almost NO DOUGH.

I can't speak to California, but one way of helping to ensure it doesn't go wobbly on you is to volunteer.

Do some precinct walking, phone work, and drive people to the polls. Find a candidate and work like hell for him or her. Don't sweat the "national level" .... all politics IS local. Be part of the solution.
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #31
77. I heard about Webb yesterday...
Way to gooooo!

Nice job blunting a Swift Boat type attack.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. the only way they can lose is electronic voting machine fraud n/t
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
6. Stop looking to the Dems for change and join
a third party. Work in that third party to make it a real viable alternative to the one party system we are reapidly approaching.



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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. sad, but sounds true.
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guinivere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. Yes. Time to sign on with a third party.
I think a viable third party is what this country needs. Shake things up a little.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
25. one party system indeed-- Congress is debating flag burning...
Edited on Thu Jun-29-06 07:59 PM by mike_c
...and censoring the NYT. The "opposition party" is opposing nuances within right wing philosophies for the most part. There are effectively no alternatives in American government, just different flavors of the same.
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
8. I'm personally 100% for a revolution at this point.
Every time I turn on my TV I just want to - :argh:
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. Like with guns and stuff?
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. no, like they did in Russia after coup against Gorbachev
or in the movie V for Vendetta. They put soldiers in the position of deciding whether to kill their family and neighbors, or side with them, and they chose correctly. Since we have less of a tradition of authoritarianism here, I have no doubt that American troops would respond correctly.
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
42. Soviet Citizens had a hell of a lot more...
...to complain about. I remember reading a great snippet in one of my reference books for a class that reprinted a letter written to Mikhail Gorbachev a few months in to his reforms. I'll paraphrase:

"Dear Mr. Gorbachev,

I am very excited to see your reforms being placed in to action, and have much optimism about the future of the Great Soviet Union and her people. Having said that, I feel compelled to let you know that, without success, I have spent every day for the last week searching our stores for a pair of socks. The ones I have are very worn and let the cold and moisture reach right in to my toes with icy claws.

Mr Gorbachev, I can not participate in Perestroika without socks.

Regards,

John Q. Soviet"


As long as Americans can shop at Costco, finance new Cadillacs or flat screen TVs, and pick any one of the 500 pairs of socks available at just about any department store in town, don't go looking for the tanks to be rolling on DC anytime soon.


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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #42
46. When they hit their credit limit, can't declare bankruptcy, and get those
toys repossessed, they won't have money for socks.

I teach college and I'm just about there.
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. No, I'm thinking Bolshevik style.
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OhioBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. I'm curious as to what you define as losing in '06
and what you define as an easy victory? If you think taking back the House and Senate is an easy victory in gerrymandered districts against incumbents, I disagree.

Also - I don't agree with defining the "Dems" as "them". We are the Dems and each of us has to do our part for Democratic victories in '06.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. them are the corporate owned Dems who stand for nothing but servicing
their masters and mouthing empty platitudes so the rest of us get bored and stop paying attention.

We can't beat the GOP with Hallmark card bland platitudes and simply not being as bad as republicans.

The GOP understands that campaigning is about telling a story, and a story has conflict.

Everything you say in a campaign should have two parts:



  1. Here's how the GOP fucked something up through incompetence or cronyism.

  2. Here's how I will fix it.



Democrats seem to be will to do a very vague version of the second, when they need to be much more specific and include bringing down the hammer on the intentional damage the GOP has done to our country.

To the degree that they don't attack GOP policies and often even vote with the worst like the bankruptcy bill, it's hard not to conclude that they have similar priorities.

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OhioBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. Again - WE are the Dems.
Yes - there are elected Dems that don't vote the way we want them to, don't run their campaigns like we want them to...

All that means is that we have to work harder to change things. A DLC Dem is better than a Republican - they will help give us the majority and chairs of committees, they will add numbers to our caucus. A Dem majority will also help pull the public opinion back toward the middle-left which could allow DLC Dems to reconnect with their roots.

We should not give up. We should keep working to get Dems elected and work for the Dems that we believe in in the Primaries. But don't get a defeatist attitude that the "them" lost or that the "them" had the wrong message - we have to work to change it from inside.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #32
64. In the short term you are right, but one problem is with DLCers running
the show, they could screw the pooch with their pre-compromised, GOP lite approach.
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Awsi Dooger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
34. You make a very good point
Let's say we net 3 senate seats and 10 house seats. That's very reasonable given the senate playing field and trying to evict so many incumbents in red states, plus the redistricted house seats. I'm sure DUers will scream theft given that scenario since we fall short of control in both chambers.

Many DUers would rather spend 2 or 4 more years blaming Diebold than trying to understand and correct why we don't win. It might be exponentially worse this fall if we fall just short of control. I can just picture the headers; "we would have won 50 house seats and 8 senate seats without DREs!"

I'll continue to argue we should all but ignore the Republicans, same thing I've insisted since early '04. Opinions of this adminstration and president are basically locked in place. I've yet to see any impact from our negativity toward Bush. His approval ratings are directly related to how he performs and outside influences we have no control over, like Katrina.

No one is impressed with the GOP, but until we define ourselves in simple terms so that apolotical types can spit out a simple sentence defining Democrats in positive terms, we lose or tread water. I don't care if it's, "We support potato chips." Just put something out there as a group, something the masses will remember and repeat.

I post on balanced political forums on a couple of specialized sites and the mime is always the same there, "I don't like Bush but the Democrats don't stand for anything, other than hating Bush."

Perception becomes reality and right now we're idiotic not to realize that's the widespread perception.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #34
54. agree on simple message that catches on but must be substantive
some real action or at least a value that is specific enough someone could disagree with.

Too many democrats seem to think that platitudes that are so vague no one can figure out how to hold them accountable for them are good enough, but even if the public doesn't see through those they are likely to do something worse--ignore them.

Democrats have to dare to say something that might offend someone, and then stick to it for decades to win the respect of people and have them know what the brand stands for. By agreeing with the GOP so much of the time on economic issues, the Dems only distinctives are abortion, gay marriage, and other cultural boutique issues--or at least that's the most the guy on the street could say.

Fighting for the minimum wage is a good start toward substance. Saying people who go to work everyday should be able to survive without welfare or working three jobs offends some republicans, but is morally correct, something most people could agree with, and consistent with Democrats historic values.

Fighting things like NAFTA that make outsourcing easier, or adding corporate responsibilities to corporate welfare like price controls on drugs in exchange money for drug research which apparently comes with NO strings right now.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
13. Take over the party and run it the way it should be run.
Better yet, let's do that now and avoid the chance of a loss in '06. Join your local party... become a star volunteer for one of your local campaigns... and start taking back the Dem Party!!

NGU.


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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
14. We'll never know if a different tactic would have put Kerry ahead
since it wasn't tried.

It's possible if he'd been more strident, he might have lost more voters, and that by being the way he was is what brought it close in the first place.

I'm not convinced that a more in your face candidate like Dean or someone else would have made the race close, or given the media more fodder with which to make our side look like baffoons.

At least with Kerry's demeanor, one could actually see him as presidential.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. I admired the guy's stand on Vietnam in the 70s, but in the debate
he was deferential to Bush to the point of being effeminate.

he didn't have to be "strident," just blunt, witty, and honest about what Bush is and has done.

To stupid people, who are Bush's base, being too polite looks servile not civil.

I have heard him sound like a real person on any number of talk radio appearances, but in the debates someone seems to have told him that people want a stepford wife for president.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Stupid people were never going to vote for him anyway.
Esp. not Bush's base.

And I thought he kicked all kind of butt in the debates, myself. That's about when our HQ kicked into high gear. Suddenly people could see us winning.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. That's A LOAD OF SHIT!! Kerry was complete alpha in the debates and every
Edited on Thu Jun-29-06 08:03 PM by blm
person who saw it KNEW IT. Why you are REVISING HISTORY at this point is a question.

Deferential to Bush - - HAHAHAHAHAH..... that sounds like PURE WISHFUL THINKING ON THE GOPs PART, and it's why they are still spinning against and focusing on Kerry as a target today.

And how about that....so are YOU.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #29
51. I wish you were right--Kerry was more correct on substance but
his physical demeanor was often odd, diffident, and deferential, which wouldn't communicate to someone with limited critical thinking skills that he could replace the other guy.

A good example would be how Reagan treated Jimmy Carter in the 1980 debates, or even Clinton and Papa Bush in 1992. Both were calm and polite, but not deferential.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #51
61. Pooh, pure revisionism. There wasn't a deferential bone in Kerry's body at
Edited on Fri Jun-30-06 11:54 AM by blm
the debates. Bush was hunched over like a buffoon, and Kerry stood straight and tall like a statesman.

His campaign even mocked Bush for how easily they SWEPT the debates immediately after the last debate.

I think your version is the version that ROVE WANTS PEOPLE TO BELIEVE TODAY, as if they never watched it with their own eyes.

What a crock you are trying to sell here.


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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. Kerry won on substance and said some of the things I wanted to hear
Don't make me dig up the clips of the goofy fake smile on his face when Bush was speaking, nodding when Bush was speaking, and clasping his hands together, and the tone he started many of his comments with.

He won, but he could have eviscerated Bush with more barbs like the one about Saddam having nothing to do with 9/11. After seeing Bush's reaction to that, it's not hard to imagine three or four similar blows uncorking him on national TV.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #62
67. If it happened corpmedia would've hyped it like the sighs. Here's FACTS

WASHINGTON, Oct. 14 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The following was released today by the Kerry-Edwards Campaign:

Kerry 4-0 In Snap Polls

CBS: KERRY WINS UNDECIDEDS 39-25

-- In a poll of undecided voters, Kerry won 39 percent - 25

Before the debate, 29 percent said he had clear positions on the issues, after, that number doubled to 60 percent.

ABC: KERRY WINS REPUBLICAN HEAVY POLL

-- Kerry won 42 percent-41 percent, in a poll with 8 percent more Republicans than Democrats (38-40), Kerry was still seen as the winner: 42-41. Independent voters gave the win to Kerry: 42-35 (abcnews.com)

CNN/USA TODAY/GALLUP: KERRY WINS

-- Who did a better job: Kerry 52 - Bush 39. Among independents, Kerry won even bigger: 54-34.

DEMOCRACY CORPS: KERRY WINS 41-36

-- Kerry won 41-36 among debate watchers.

Among independents, Kerry won by 6 point, and by nine in battleground states.

Undecideds broke for Kerry, saying he won by eight points. (democracycorps.com)

-- And Don't Forget The First Two Debates --

Debate Number 2: Kerry 3-0

ABC: Debate watchers say Kerry won" Kerry 44, Bush 41

CNN/USA TODAY/GALLUP: Debate watchers say Kerry wins 47 - 45

DEMOCRACY CORPS: Kerry wins 45-37, and by even more among independents, undecideds and battleground state voters.

Debate Number 1: Kerry 5-0

ABC: Kerry won 45-36, "It was a clean win for Kerry: Independents by a 20-point margin said he prevailed." (abcnews.com)

CBS: In their poll of uncommitted voters, Kerry won 44-26.

CNN/USA TODAY GALLUP: Kerry won 53-37, and 60-29 among independents.

DEMOCRACY CORPS: Kerry won 45-32.

AMERICAN RESEARCH GROUP: Kerry won 51-41.

-- FINAL WORD: KERRY WINS -- Kerry In Control And Winner --

Bob Novak: "Kerry seems to be overpowering Bush." (cnn.com, 10/13/04)

Pat Buchanan: "Kerry was, I thought, very much at the top of his game and I thought toward the end, when you saw Kerry, you saw more of the humanity of the man in some of those questions, which was very helpful to them; talking about the daughters and things. I thought he had some excellent moments." (MSNBC, 10/13/04)

Jon Meacham, Newsweek: "John Kerry took the populist war straight to the President." (MSNBC, 10/13/04)

Bill Schneider: "Well this was a decisive win for John Kerry. It was just about as decisive as his win in the first debate, which everyone agreed was a blowout. His, the first debate he won by 16 points; this debate, Kerry won by 13 points. According to the views of the viewers polled immediately after the debate so they had no chance really to be influenced by the spin." (CNN, 10/13/04)

Washington Post: "An essentially dignified and thoughtful performance by John Kerry, contrasted with an oddly giggly turn by George W. Bush, combined to give the last debate of the presidential campaign to the challenger last night, but very narrowly." (Washington Post, 10/14/04)

-- Kerry's Momentum Grew And Keeps Growing --

Carlos Watson: "As we went along, as we talked about social security, as we talked about immigration, as we talked even about the Supreme Court, I thought John Kerry ultimately found his voice. And when all is said and done I think Kerry will be proclaimed the winner, which I think will be significant because I think he will be viewed as having won all three debates." (CNN, 10/13/04)

Anthony Mason: "Dan, the uncommitted voters in our survey have given the edge in this debate, to this final debate, to John Kerry." (CBS, 10/13/04)

-- Kerry Appealed to Voters --

David Gergen: "What I thought John Kerry did very effectively tonight was reach out to women voters and they've become critical to his election Charlie, its the biggest change that's taken place since these debates started." (PBS, 10/13/04)

-- Kerry More Presidential And Stronger Than Bush --

Bill Schneider: "Well I think he did appear more presidential than the president, which is exactly why he won the first debate and why he won this debate." (CNN, 10/13/04)

Richard Wolfe: "John Kerry has looked more presidential and more personable as these debates have gone on." (CNN, 10/13/04)

Melinda Henneberger, Newsweek: "Overall in the three debates, you really have to say that Kerry came across as more commanding and that the president... did not always even seem in command of himself." (MSNBC, 10/14/04)

-- Kerry Clear On Issues --

Mark Shields: "I think Kerry is far more factual." (PBS, 10/13/04)

USA Today: "By double-digit margins, those surveyed gave Kerry higher marks than Bush for expressing himself clearly, understanding issues and caring about the needs of people like them. Kerry was more believable, they said." (USA Today, 10/14/04)

New York Times: "Kerry's answer on health-care costs may be his best yet. He lays out the case against the administration logically and clearly." (Kit Seeyle, New York Times online, 10/13/04)

New York Times: "The president refused to accept any responsibility for the lapse of the ban on assault weapons and completely dodged the question of whether he wanted to see the Supreme Court reverse Roe vs. Wade, while Mr. Kerry gave strong responses to both questions. "I believe that the right of choice is a constitutional right," he said. "So I don't intend to see it undone."" (Ed. New York Times, 10/14/04)

-- Bush Mission To Win Debate: NOT ACCOMPLISHED --

Tom Fielder: "I think tonight was tough territory for President Bush to even be playing in. And the odds were tough for him. Frankly I don't, again speculation, but I don't think that he was able to do anything that either hurt John Kerry badly enough to change the dynamic or that helped him enough to push John Kerry off of the game right now." (CNN, 10/14/04)

Associated Press: "I've become more and more disturbed about Bush," said John Barker, 73, of Tampa, Fla., who voted for Bush in 2000, sweated over this year's election for months and finally decided Wednesday night to back Kerry. "I just don't think with everything we're facing, we can have another four years. I'm talking about the economy. I'm talking about Iraq. Bush just didn't give me a good reason for the way things are," the former policeman said. (AP, 10/14/04)

New York Times: "If Mr. Bush loses the election, he will have to blame, at least in part, his own debate performance." (New York Times, 10/13/04)

-- Bush's Expressions Showed His Weakness --

Melinda Henneberger, Newsweek: "I think that tonight, Bush did himself some real harm...he just seems so perpetually surprised... it really undercut his credibility I thought." (MSNBC, 10/14/04)

USA Today: "Bush used language unusually slashing for an incumbent president - especially one whose 47 percent approval rating makes it perilous for him to do anything that might make him seem less appealing and, well, presidential." (USA Today, 10/14/04)

Washington Post: "(Bush was) maintaining a Cheshire cat grin that seemed to imply he did not take Kerry seriously as a challenger and wanted the national viewing audience to know that." (Washington Post, 10/14/04)

http://www.usnewswire.com /

-0-
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #67
75. I know what I saw. Look, I voted for Papa Bush back in 88 and when
people started dumping on Quayle, I suspended judgment until I actually saw him perform in the debate and some interviews, and decided he really was an idiot.

Kerry would have been a better president. He was better on substance in the debate. His demeanor would not have been persuasive to people who think their shouting preacher must be sincere or he wouldn't be shouting, or that the imperial swagger of Bush means he's presidential.

Got to go to work.

Will resume bulletin board death match tonight.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. So Kerry was to ACT LIKE A COCKY MONKEY to win over people who LIKE
cocky monkeys and think that looks presidential?

You CANNOT be serious. Do you take us for utter fools? WE are not to believe what WE saw because YOU say so - someone who thinks acting like a cocky monkey would work to sway the vote that LIKES cocky monkey swagger?

Ridiculous.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #76
86. Not a cocky monkey, but not defer to a cocky monkey like he's the fucking
pope either.

I would have been happy with a Kerry equivalent of Reagan saying of Jimmy Carter, "There he goes again..." a not very veiled patronizing swipe.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. Absurd. No review exists that claims Kerry was deferential to Bush but
yours and the revisionist history that Rove is writing.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #90
97. I think Kerry is a manly man and has done many admirable things few
others would dare like the Iran-Contra hearings, but someone gave him bad advice about his demeanor and how restrained he should be during the debates.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-01-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #14
101. KERRY WON n/t
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osaMABUSh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
16. Other - I'm moving
to another country - thinking Italy or Mexico
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
33. Italy....check the euro rate.


If you're stinking rich, well, no worries, but if you're relying on a US based income stream, it's no bargain lately.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #16
44. Take a look at Panama
We are building in Panama after looking at a lot of other countries.

www.panaminfo.com
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
21. revolution-- instant runoff voting....
We really need to change our system to allow for more than two dominant parties.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. I like that thing they do in Israel where they have to patch together
coalitions of smaller parties.

possibly the only system worse than ours is Britain where the first party to get the most votes runs things, however small their plurality is.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
26. Continue to bash them cause it's very productive
Edited on Thu Jun-29-06 08:01 PM by politicasista
:sarcasm: :boring:
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #26
55. cheerleading and pounding the pavement doesn't help if your candidate
won't take a stand on issues or fight election rigging. We have done our part but too many candidates and those in office have not.
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
30. Dissolve the Democratic Party
I've seen the Democrats blow the elections in 1980, 1988, 2000, and 2004. Last chance...
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Yours too.
See you in November.

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shimmergal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
36. We need to do some divergent thinking.
For example, we need a secret organization (more likely a secret order, like Opus Dei or the Bene Gesserit in DUNE), devoted to figuring out how to find the weaknesses in those who're raking in all those corporate excess profits, _and ways to siphon it away from them_. And then to doing so.)
A lot of these ways would be perfectly legal. The money could then be used where it could make a further differnece to change the system.

Certainly we can't expect a revolution to succeed at this point, unless we have a way to take over control of the media _first_, before going into the streets.

Just a couple of thoughts.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
38. Oh, you know, maybe like take some fucking responsibility.
Edited on Thu Jun-29-06 08:18 PM by LoZoccolo
If the Democrats lose elections it's because people didn't vote for them.

If they don't vote for them, it's because we didn't compel them to. We, like you and I.

Where do people get this insane notion that it's any different than that?

And I might add, I post all the time about getting people involved, even giving people an opportunity to stand up and be counted as people who do that, and the response is minimal. DUers are seldom doers! They can talk up a revolution but won't make phone calls, walk precincts, or hand out flyers and talk to people.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
39. Realize it is a marathon and not a sprint...
The Republicans were out of power (in Congress) for more than 40 years. They did not have one President between 1932 and 1952.

We keep plugging away until we get there....

There is no "get rich quick" scheme available


I think we will do well this year, possibly even take the house. But I recognize it is probably likely we will still be in the minority. Doesn't mean we are on the wrong track, it just means it takes a long time to generate the kind of change in mindset that will return us to power!
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #39
63. a difference with GOP out of power, at least from 70s on: consistent
message.

It may have been cynical and they reneged on significant parts like balancing the budget, but people knew what their agenda was and could see how the legislation they proposed supported that agenda.

The Democrats, especially during the Bush years, having taken the opposite tack, and tried to be more like the party in power.

There are many progressive politicians I admire, but enough Democrats are on the corporate payroll to cloud the public perception of what we stand for.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
40. I voted other
Because what will have to be done is prolonged, persistent and massive civil disobedience until the demands for voter reform ( that the winner must have 50 percent to win and a secure and trustworthy voter system) are enacted by our congress.
If the election is stolen as I believe it will be, then a general strike should be called and a mass sit in in Washington should take place until the demands are met or the troops are called in to shoot us down.
then at least the american people will know that they have a dictatorship and will not be fooled into thinking it is a free country.
But there will be no shooting because we do have some with integrity that will join us and they would never dare to expose themselves in such a manner.
We have a lot of marches and protest now but they are marginalized and ignored, and that is because there is no Civil Disobedience for them to deal with. They simply segregate divide and ignore.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
43. I voted other
As long as Repub owned corporations are making the machines counting the votes, there will not be a turnover of power from Repubs to Dems.

So how do we get to the point of free and fair elections?


Get in the streets. Big time protests. And I don't think that will happen until the economy tanks.

So, for me, it may be retirement to Panama. And hope the ice melt in Greenland doesn't flood our new island home.

No wonder I've been having nightmares.
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Placebo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
45. Work for the Hillary Clinton for President Campaign!
:patriot:
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #45
59. good idea. Are you going to enlist to occupy Iraq and Iran too?
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #45
68. If by "Hillary Clinton", you mean "Al Gore"
I'm with you 100%.

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Revolution_July4 Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
50. Cindy Sheehan to provoke the Second American Revolution July 4th
We cannot wait for the next 'election'...it will be too late!


Gold Star Families for Peace will announce a historic hunger strike against the war in Iraq. At 5pm, they will sit down in front of the White House to eat their last meal and hold a press conference before beginning the fast at the same location in the morning of July 4 at 10am.

Weve marched, held vigils, lobbied Congress, camped out at Bushs ranch. Weve even gone to jail. Now its time to do more, says peace mom Cindy Sheehan. While others are celebrating July 4th with barbeques, well be showing our patriotism by putting our bodies on the line to bring our troops home.

Hundreds of celebrities, veterans, mothers, and concerned citizens across the country will participate in a rolling fast. Strikers include musicians Willie Nelson and Michael Franti, actors Danny Glover, Sean Penn and Susan Sarandon, Gold Star parents Cindy Sheehan and Fernando Suarez, legendary faster and comedian Dick Gregory, environmental activist Diane Wilson, Iraq war veteran Geoffrey Millard and Gulf War vet Michael McPherson, labor leader Dolores Huerta
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #50
60. that sounds like a great idea. Bush won't care if the bodies pile up like
concentration camp victims, but it could galvanize the public more.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #50
81. Sounds like a rather quarter-assed "revolution" to me.. (n/t)
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
53. Other - Ask "What should be done if Dems screw up and lose 08 too?"
:nuke:
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. Like when they nominate Hillary and she promises to invade Iran?
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
56. Unilateral ban on corporate and PAC contributions
If the crooked Congress won't stop taking Wall Street money to subjugate the American worker, it's time for our party to do so unilaterally.
Not one dime from Pfizer or Exxon or MBNA.
Then we can run a real candidate who speaks to the economic fear and anger of the average American.
That cnadidate could not be beaten by any Republican.

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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. I agree.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
66. Say we lost because of the "values voter", blame it on gays, atheists and
pro-choicers, and then continue to do things exactly as we've been doing them.

:sarcasm:
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
69. The question SHOULD be: What should dems do if a 3rd election is STOLEN
by the reTHUGS. Because WE DEMS all know beyond a doubt that the evil reTHUGS stole 2 elections already. :grr:

p.s. Obviously, I don't like how you framed the question in the first place. And another thing that bugs me: why do you call democrats "THEM"???!!! Shouldn't it be "WE"???!!!
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. It should be ours to lose in 2006
Edited on Fri Jun-30-06 12:26 PM by shadowknows69
if there's even a hint of impropriety and we lose it then I aim to misbehave. Send me care packages to Gitmo please.
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Sure thing.
:thumbsup:

Anything special in mind... Or are you okay with the standard chocolate ration?
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Double plus good
25 grams more please.
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. More! You want more?!?! Why I aughta...
You know there's troops out (See Chuck out by the gate ;) ) there on the perpetual front who'd
kill for more!

No chocolate for you!

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conflictgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #69
95. That is exactly what I was going to post
I'm much more worried about the election being stolen than about the Dems "screwing up again".
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
79. I, for one, advocate a neuter-and-release program. nt
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #79
89. if that cat was neutered, I may be against it. he doesn't look right.
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #91
96. that one looks better. your avatar version is squished. He still looks
like you sucked out his soul along with his nads.
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-01-06 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #96
99. Did you check out the link?
If not, do so.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-01-06 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #99
100. please don't leave your house. The SPCA SWAT team will be there shortly
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-02-06 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #100
102. Isn't it insane?
Apparently, though, the guy who put it together found those pictures somewhere. He didn't actually do that to any cats.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
82. Revolution. When the Democratic Party refuses to represent our interests
it is the only option left. Replacing one corporate controlled government with another will only result in a change of propaganda.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
83. We could beat them if we get the governors of a majority
Edited on Fri Jun-30-06 04:37 PM by Cleita
of the states on board to opens escrow accounts for taxpayers to put their FIT taxes into only to be released to the US Treasury when election reform and a few other issues are addressed like impeachment proceedings and trials for all those elected officials who have broken their oaths to uphold the Constitution. I wouldn't withhold FICA because Seniors and others rely on their SS and Medicare to survive. If the governors suspended the powers of any federal agencies to collect those taxes, I believe it could be done. Once the money tree source dries up, they will be impotent to do anything including allocating funds to the military who might get really pissed off then.
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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
84. Im going to scream if they lose to this bunch of failures
If we cant get the country onboard after all the deaths, failures, economy for the rich, gas prices doubling since 2000, we wont ever be able to win. Ill move to another country where I can raise my kids in a non fascist country that cares for all its people.
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PWRinNY Donating Member (456 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
92. Go after the media
Democrats aren't the big problem, should they lose in 06. If they lose, it doesn't necessarily mean it's because Dems screwed up. It's the corporate media that basically dictates who wins. As much as it is those who count the votes - it's the media's job to tell truth, but they're paid, instead, to lie and spread their mind-controlling, brainwashing propaganda.

If any of you have satellite TV and can watch Link TV, watch a program called Democracy For Sale? It's very illuminating. I knew the media was bad, I knew they were VERY bad - but THIS is a must-see for everyone who cares about our country and about truth.
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negativenihil Donating Member (772 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-30-06 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
94. Other.
Edited on Fri Jun-30-06 08:37 PM by negativenihil


Cheer up, there's plent of time between now and November...
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-01-06 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #94
98. nice animation, though after Jeff Gannon's visits to the White House...
I get the impression Bush would like that treatment.
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