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I Know That People Feel Beaten By Election Fraud, But DAMN!

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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 09:15 AM
Original message
I Know That People Feel Beaten By Election Fraud, But DAMN!
How often are posts that seek to rally the troops, encourage holding these folks accountable come November, etc. met with, "It does not matter. They will just steal it again. They have too much to lose not to!"?

I know folks feel very frustrated. But, if we start thinking like that, the criminals are CERTAIN to win. They win and they laugh their asses off. I have no stomach for that!

First of all, if you admit defeat before you even start, you have taken half of the wind out of the sails from the get go. That will certainly not help us overcome any handicap we may have in terms of the voting machines, voter disenfranchisement and the like. In fact, it does nothing but destroy momentum that we should be capitalizing on right now. These fools are imploding and many are acting like not a thing has changed since the last election. While not enough has changed, much has. Number one, America is now fed up with winger policies and well aware of many of the biggest winger lies. People will not be as easily lied to again. America wants change. But, it will never go for a party that projects, "Vote for us even though we're already beaten."

Second, the methods that are being employed in these fraudulent practices are not all powerful. They are by necessity focused and targeted. They can sway the vote up to a certain point without drawing a lot of scrutiny. I do not believe that they can steal a blowout.

So, the only way to beat these criminals is to BLOW THEM OUT!

Assuming we are defeated before the races even really get rolling is no way to BLOW THEM OUT.

Republicans have no problem projecting confidence, even when they are unraveling. We have to do the same or they will have no need to steal anything. We'll lose it legitimately!

If you do not have any confidence, try faking it a while. Maybe it will grow on you!

My two cents...
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
1. Right on
I know you will take flack for this - but you are right.

The Player who expects to lose will usually lose.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I Have A Fine Flack Vest At My Disposal. I Just Don't Give A Shit!
LOL!
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
3. IMO, they will steal a blowout

They know this is their last chance to keep all their evil deeds in place.

The election fraud has been working for them for the last six years and they know it.

Look how the "Main Stream Media" has been spinning for them lately.

"Democrats are divided" "Democrats Cut and Run" "Democrats don't have a Plan"

They still say it over and over until it sinks in with some people.

They know they don't have the votes but THEY MUST WIN.

I agree that we should be more forceful but it will be a cat fight.

Since they control the courts and control the Congress and Control the Blackwell's that worked it for them last time, they are sitting pretty.


They may be scared but they have POWER and MONEY behind them and they ain't backing down.
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I'd Say the Dem Learned Helplessness Is Just As Big A Factor
Edited on Mon Jun-26-06 09:32 AM by DistressedAmerican
as the media. Although, the two are clearly intimately linked.

Fuck the media spin. I'm kind of into proving the assholes wrong! We have our own voices!

Nothing that I have read on election fraud suggests that stealing a blowout is a realistic possibility. Too much suspicion would be generated of they tried to shave too many points in too many races. Everyone and their mother is watching them these days and America knows they are lying pigs.

I suggest we work to blow them the hell out. That is the only real solution I see. America is ready, if we act like a viable alternative.

Any suggestions how we deal with the problem you describe?

I do not see the preadmitting defeat route as beneficial at all. In fact, it strikes me as a guarantee of more of the same.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
32. Ohio 2005. They Turned a Landslide for US into a Landslide for THEM!
Edited on Mon Jun-26-06 11:01 AM by AndyTiedye

The election reform referenda were leading by over 2-1 in the polls. They "lost".
Not only did they lose, but they lost by almost 2-1 !!
That is a shift of over 30% of the entire statewide vote of Ohio.

They only need two things.

1. Control of the media, to smear Democrats, to make the race appear close,
and to explain away each Republican "upset".

2. Control of the voting machines


They already have #1. Our only option is to challenge #2 by whatever means we
have available. Legal action is usually the only option. In states with
Democratic legislatures and governors, we can have legislation, though we are
less likely to be robbed in such states anyway.

The organizaton bringing on most of the legal action these days is
http://www.voteraction.org
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. THEY don't even think THEY can steal a blowout
As you can see by the efforts to keep people from voting. If THEY could change ANY outcome THEY would not worry about how many people voted. Whatever the vote, they'd change it. But they are worried about how many people vote. They try to keep the number small because through fraud they can only make a few percentage points change at best.

They know this and we should trust them on their estimates of the limits of their election stealing skills.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #11
21. And the stalling of the VOTING RIGHTS Act?
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. I have no idea how that relates...
... except that it's another example of them trying to keep the voting number low because they have only a limited ability to change the election results.

If they had complete control of every vote they would not mess with any of this stuff.

If I were given the magical power to change the election results to whatever I wanted - you can be sure I woudl not do another thing about the election. I'd simply wait for the election to occur and overwrite my own results.

But I can't and neither can they. They can maybe push a couple of percentage points in some key states. The rest they have to do though block-the-vote efforts such as the one you mention.
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Funny Thing I First thought That Was Your Post As It Completely Supports
your argument. Guess I misread. LOL!
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #11
66. the hampering of the vote is PART of the election fraud problem
you show the weakness of your argument here. the voters who cannot get to vote because of board of elections or secretary of state partisan rulings are as much a part of the republican plan as actual digital vote switching and other forms of purposeful miscounting. people DID try to vote and were, in droves, hampered from doing so. go tell them about your optimism. when you say "even they don't think they can do it," you're putting words in the mouths of republicans that aren't there.
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
62. Yup, they are scared and therefore *more* dangerous
I'm sure they are laughing up their sleeves about 2000 and 2004, but they are running scared now, so THEY MUST BE WATCHED AND BLOODY MURDER MUST BE SCREAMED IN A TIMELY MANNER AND IN A WAY THAT WILL GET MAINSTREAM ATTENTION.

No, I don't really know how to do that on a national scale, but I sure think the Democratic party ought to be thinking about it, HARD.
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
5. I fear some people are looking for justification...
... to stay home and watch TV. Why go out and canvass? Why phone bank? Why write my congress people? They'll just steal the election anyway. "It'll never work" in their best Eeyore voice.

We should be able to win an election by a fraud proof margin. If we can't it's only because we don't really want to. We'd rather watch TV.

But I'd say they are are only one of two groups that hurt our ability to do the hard work. The other group is the over-enthusiastic. Those who celebrate every loss that wasn't lost by as much as it could have been lost. Those that celebrated the filibuster compromise that left the filibuster in a coma, on life support, or the Hackett loss or the Busby loss are in that group. They celebrate any poll showing sentiment tipping our way and attack any poll showing differently. They don't recognize that losses are losses and that they are bad for us. Hell, even winning is not good enough (Gore vs. Bush).

While they may think they are cheering us on and keeping our spirits high what they are doing is promoting a feeling of "It's in the bag". Again, a good justification to stay home and watch TV. Which many are doing. Many progressives are simply NOT turning out for candidate or issue work.

If we take back a house of congress in 2006 it will be done by those in the middle. Those who think the fight is winnable, that we are not doomed, but who believe we are a not yet in the lead on this race.
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Well Said...
"If we take back a house of congress in 2006 it will be done by those in the middle. Those who think the fight is winnable, that we are not doomed, but who believe we are a not yet in the lead on this race.'

Cheers to that! :toast:
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
33. Thanks! n/t
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
43. There's Nothing On TV
Edited on Mon Jun-26-06 11:55 AM by AndyTiedye
:argh: and if you watch too much of it, you might find yourself turning into a Republican :scared:
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skipos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
6. The Diebold Defeatists don't like to talk about it, but we won in 05
in VA, NJ and CA. On Diebold machines too.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Read the GAO Report on Electronic Voting. This is a non-partisan report
that addresses the concerns of security. Did you ever think the they would allow some races to be won, especially by sympathetic dems, to lessen the questioning and outrage?
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skipos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. I know all about the GAO support.
Just as I know that Kaine (D) was barely leading in VA. If Kilgore would have won, there would have been limited outrage. It would have been a perfect one to steal, and I have never seen any bit of restraint from republicans.

Regardless, I always
1. support any election reform legislation as much as I can
2. support dem candidates with my time and money as much as I can
3. encourage everyone to do the same

IMO, that is the best thing to do for democrats, and the best thing to do for America.

I have no problem with threads discussing what to do about Diebold, I have a problem when Diebold Defeatists try to convince people that voting is a waste of time. If the Diebold Defeatists had their way, everyone would have sat at home in Nov 05, and we'd have two more republican governors and a bunch of shitty legislation from Arnie in CA.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. There's no one in the Election Reform forum that posts
in the way you are describing. And I haven't seen any of us posting that way in other forums either. I sat up all night for results in 05. Come to think of it, several of us did.

And at least in CA, we voted on several different kinds of machines in 05, not only Diebold.

Your brand is catchy but it's also wrong.

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skipos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. You have never seen people post anything like
"what is the point of voting, Diebold will just steal it?"

If that is the case, let me know and I will show you them.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #25
59. Always Vote. At Least Make Them Go to the Trouble of Stealing It
May Mr. Blackwell get repetitive stress injuries from having to change so many votes:

or perhaps the "R" key on his keyboard will wear out.
Better yet, may they screw up and get caught.
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RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #6
35. Yep - we can't have it both ways
When a (D) wins it is the people speaking
When a (R) wins it is a deep dark conspiracy

Not that I don't think Ohio had some strange stuff going on.






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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #35
70. With Out That Strange Stuff In Ohio, We Would Have
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
53. Thanks for reminding. Besides, even crooks should be forced to WORK some.
If they're going to steal the election, at least make it tough sledding for them.
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
65. Those elections were just about governorships and local issues
Nearly the same thing occurred in 2001, just after 9-11, but that didn't translate into victory a year later, when exit polling was mysteriously cancelled, and several Democrats who were leading in Senate races to unseat incumbent Repubs saw their leads completely evaporate into thin air on election day. The only incumbent Repub who was defeated for a Senate election in that year (2002) was Arkansas' Tim Hutchinson, whose marital problems, the fact this his opponent was the son of a popular former Senator, and the fact that Arkansas was mainly still voting the old-fashioned way, would have made it very difficult to have the tide conveniently turn for Hutchinson at the last minute.
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rzemanfl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
7. We need some sort of parallel election mechanism, otherwise
the Republican miracles will just get more miraculous.
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Jawja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #7
20. That "parallel election mechanism"
begins with addressing the current mechanism with sledge hammers.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
8. I believe the posts you mention are meant to force the Dem Party to ACT.
I can talk of the situation in Ohio, where I am an activist with the election reform community. In January, the GOP thugs who control the OH legislature passed the suppressive HB 3, which includes several despicable attempts by the GOP to legitimize disenfranchisement. Right away election reformers called on the Dem Party and BOEs to issue VOTER IDs, so that low income, elderly and college students (DEM BASE) wouldn't be adversely effected by this legislation (btw...this will also cause a repeat of those long lines in DEM precincts when voters can't produce the proper ID (military ID and College IDs won't work).

We are self funded folks and certainly can't afford to tackle this project ourselves, so our goal is to raise attention to issues like this so the the Dems will be forced to protect their base voters.

One example as I have to run, but certainly you can't believe that those who are donating their time and own money for the cause of election reform want to stop people from voting. WE ARE TRYING TO PROTECT THEIR RIGHT TO VOTE AND TO INSURE THEIR VOTES ARE COUNTED!
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. You May Be Right.
Edited on Mon Jun-26-06 09:46 AM by DistressedAmerican
But wouldn't it be more effective to make an overt plea for reform and note that as the likely consequence? Rather than just saying things like "Voting will not change anything. They're just going to steal it anyway. The system is so broken that is will never do us any good. They own it."?

Those kind of comments which I read here a lot do not seem too likely to sway the Dems to do much unless you think they will so fear our voter apathy that they will be forced to act.

I think making a well stated case for reform would go a long way to influence public opinion on the issue and consequently apply pressure to the politicos who have refused to get the job don up until now. These sort of comments really don't.


Big props on your work! We need more on the font lines like that!
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Election reformers from around the country...
(and I am on several national and state listservs) have produced ideas such as the previously mentioned IDs, and have put together parallel elelctions, and have suggested post card mail in after elections to spot discrepancies in voting totals. Our entire movement has been self funded and volunteer based. Have you ever spent full days in a BOE warehouse looking at ballots/signatures? I spent months recording copied ballots one by one, as have so many others in our VOLUNTEER based movement. What we uncovered, although largely ignored until RFK Jr is how the GOP stole in hopes of PREVENTING it in the future. Our constitution has an equal protection clause, I want all voters to have equal access and equal protection that there votes would count. I haven't met anyone who doesn't feel the same working on this issue.

I stepped away from owning a small business (for 17+ years) because of what I witnessed. Now I not only have NO income, but my husband's salary helps fund our work. I live in a wealthy precinct where there were short (it took me and my husband 15 minutes to vote at pre work rush hour-perhaps because the Governor and many titans of business live in my precinct) or no lines on Nov 2. Contrast this with several blocks away where 5 hours were not uncommon. I am not doing this to stop voters from particiapting but because if it is not addressed, they will NOT BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE!

My point is you are wrongly generalizing what election reformers are attempting to do. It would be nice if our party, who has the manpower and resources would address this to protect their base voters, but in their absense, some very dedicated citizens have stepped up to the plate to take over. I am proud to me a member of this community.

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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I Am Not Talking About Election Reformers.
Edited on Mon Jun-26-06 10:11 AM by DistressedAmerican
I am talking about the people that make the very kind of comments cited above and do nothing to fix it.

You seem awfully defensive here. If you are working the problem, like I said, big props to you. If you think that everyone making these kinds of comments here are doing the same I think you give them far too much credit.

I fully support these efforts and yes I have done some similar work as have several members of my family. I appreciate that you do too.

However, most of the people saying "it doesn't matter. They're just going to steal it again." are doing nothing of the sort.

In short, you are clearly not the kind of poster I am talking about here. Best of luck on your work.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
51. I have seen very few of the despairing posts that you cite here
There are three main objectives that the election reformers are trying to accomplish:

1) Ascertain how fraud occurs.

2) Take steps to prevent fraud from occurring in the next election.

3) Publicize election fraud so that a wider population of American citizens are aware of it.

Here is an example, where I tried to do a combination of those things:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

You are correct that despairing posts where citizens are told that voting does no good are not good for anybody. But I have seen very few of those.
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. OK but...
... most posts do not sound like yours. They are short single line "They'll just steal the election anyway" or "Did you forget about diebold?". No pointers on where to look for voter fraud information or where to go for voter fraud action. Nothing but 5 or 6 words telling the posters on the thread that their efforts are in vain.

We all know (99% of this group anyway) that there are election problems. And we all agree that open, free and fair elections are a worthwhile cause. But while you are doing your good thing others are trying to win elections by fraud-proof margins - also a good thing. If we can win a bunch of elections and get more progressives into government all of our jobs would be easier.

I don't see where it helps for someone, in a thread about phone banking for Sherrod Brown (as a hypothetical) to jump in with a "Blackwell will just steal the vote anyway" comment. If he's really omnipotent (and I don't think he is) and the poster doesn't have someway to help prevent the fraud, why are they posting at all? What good does it do to read the sniping every day?

In many cases they're probably trolls. But I fear some are just nay-sayers looking for reasons not to help.

If you're working for election reform, great. Post like crazy, recruit new blood, advertise your actions and crawl all over this board. I wish you all the power you can get. But if someone has given up and thinks it's hopeless I wish they'd just turn the computer off and go watch TV.





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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. Those are distractors, some probably paid by the rovian machine to
discourage and disinform. The majority of people here (of course I have hesitations on the motives of some) are working to change the system.

But unfortunately Blackwell will attempt to steal it if we do not act, and you know what? In Ohio we can no longer challenge federal elections due to the thugs, and the cost of recounts jumped so it will be difficult for a grassroot based recount like '04 to occur. So our actions MUST occur prior to the elections and if it means shaming the state officials (in Ohio) into action, then so be it.

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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. I don't think most of them are...
... paid disruptors and in any case I don't think the OP was refering to people like you in the original post. I shouldn't speak for him/her but, at least I'm not.

I'm referring to the many one line Eeyores that can't let a conversation about how to win an election go by without jumping in to tell us it's hopeless. I don't think that's you.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
71. How Do We Get Acceptable IDs to Our Voters?
Right away election reformers called on the Dem Party and BOEs to issue VOTER IDs, so that low income, elderly and college students (DEM BASE) wouldn't be adversely effected by this legislation


What manner of ID is acceptable?

We are self funded folks and certainly can't afford to tackle this project ourselves,


What is the project? Persuading the BOE's to issue voter registration cards?

so our goal is to raise attention to issues like this so the the Dems will be forced to protect their base voters.



I think there are plenty of DU'ers who would be willing to contribute if you have an entity capable of accepting contributions (a 527?)
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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
13. Respectfully, my attitude was sunny & optimistic the last 3 elections.
And simply adopting a sunny attitude is good, this would make one an optimist.

I am not a defeatist exactly, but one who tries to see both sides.

Let's say the deck is stacked against our favor on a massive scale, and voting machines are maybe the number one example of election fraud at it's ultimate conclusion.

If we had had fair elections, we'd have won handily the last several times.

But I do stand by your statements about attitude, I need to work on mine.
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #13
24. Sunny and Optimistic doesn't win
Take a look at the GOP. They control nearly everything. When have you seen them sunny and optimistic?

Even when they're winning they are still decrying grave peril they are all in. From the Republican revolution in '94 it's been one crisis after another with them.

Bill Clinton was embarrassing the nation. Then Bush got into office and Iraq was a new crisis. Then Social Security. If you ask why government is still not working it's due to entrenched liberal bureaucracies or activist judges. We are nothing as a nation if we let the liberals return Elian Gonzalez or kill Terry Schiavo. We will certainly perish if we don't protect the flag and put the fags back in the closet. And now the liberal atheists have declared war on Christmas!

They don't talk like they're on top because when you're on top people stop working for you. They stop repeating your talking points around the water cooler. They stop listening to right wing radio. They stop calling their congress people and writting their local paper. When the enemy has been vanquished you turn your efforts to the mundane of daily life.

So, as far as their public face, the enemy will never be vanquished. Our liberal, anti-God, hetero-hating, flag-burning, baby-killing, ACLU-backed armies will remain on the verge of total victory for as long as that strategy keeps them in power.

Sunny and optimistic people just don't spend 6 hours of a sunny weekend indoors calling strangers to ask them to vote for... whoever.

I'm not saying we need to become the cartoon caricatures they've become but, there's really good reason not to be optimistic. Understand that we might be no better off after November than we are now. The GOP message machine is very powerful and November is a long way off. But this is the best chance we've had in a while to push this country in a better direction. We don't need sunny optimism. We don't need anything but more people to start pushing.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
14. rather than trying to appeal to the center-right voters...
like the group of republican infiltraitors known as the dlc is committed to doing in their efforts to destroy our party-

we should be concentrating on the MUCH LARGER group- NON-VOTERS.
give them not just a REASON to vote, but a reason to vote DEMOCRATIC.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
23. with all due respect: bullshit.
open your eyes, take your head out of the sand. the election process is fatally corrupted. they can do anything they want with these elections. they are not only very good at election fraud already but they're getting better and bolder each cycle.

some may be saying give up. others are saying that this is the first thing we have to do something about, that success rests on doing something about it. that's not defeatism, that's just pointing people in the right direction. in my opinion, anyone not loudly blowing the horn, and especially anyone OPPOSING blowing the horn on election fraud is PART OF THE PROBLEM!

please, i beseach you, explain to me why the democrats are not making this the top issue in their strategy for winning anything in november.

p.s.: all of the above is assuming you are aware of the extent of election fraud in 2000, 2002, 2004. if not, go educate yourself and come back later.
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Respect Conveyed.
/sarcasm

Feel free to read my other posts on this thread. I would reply to you but, you are just repeating what others have said and doing it with a fucking 'tude.

Have fun with that.
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #27
39. LOL, Distressed American!
Whenever anybody starts with "with all due respect" you can bet they will not be conveying any respect whatsoever; however yu do have MY respect, no lecture attached. Thanks for your post, I totally agree with you.
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #23
31. So we can win this election by telling people...
Edited on Mon Jun-26-06 10:55 AM by GOTV
... that their vote won't count?

(editted for spelling)
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. "that success rests on doing something about it. that's not defeatism"
read his/her post.

This is correct. Make people aware but make sure they are also aware of what is being done to correct it.

If I had waited for 5 hours, then were given a Provisional ballot that probably didn't count, I would be less likely to repeat the wait in a long line in the future BUT I would certainly do it again if party members came into my community and took the time to explain the situation, check my registration status (SOMETHING THAT MUST BE DONE TO PREVENT THE EFFECTS OF PURGES), informed me of where to vote, and made sure I had the proper ID.

The Party/candidates need to go into affected neighborhoods and show them that they are important to them. These targeted precincts went over 95% DEM. It is certainly worth the effort and these voters are deserving of the time/attention.
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #34
40. I read the post...
... and here's the part I was responding to

"explain to me why the democrats are not making this the top issue in their strategy for winning"

No one will win an election by telling people that their vote doesn't count. The dems should be working to fix the electoral system between campaign appearances or as part of a larger message of open government and accountability.

There is no sense in making it the top issue in their campaign. We have to tell people that their vote is important and meaningful because it is - even though a few percent will be stolen.

Your suggestions are in line with that. Your suggestions acknowlege that voting is still important and has consequences. For the Dems to start every campaign appearance or commercial with the "The GOP steal all the elections" meme would be self destructive.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. The suggestion, as I read it is to address the problem instead of sweeping
it under the rug. GettingOutTheVote is great. We did that in Ohio (and of course elsewhere) in '04, but unless there are steps taken to combat the supression/fraud it is not enough.

I will give you an example from 1 county. Read this about Lucas Co-a Dem stronghold written by Blackwell's office:

SOS's Investigation of Lucas county following the election:

http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/elections/lucas.htm


This report includes the fact that REPUBLICAN VOLUNTEERS were allowed UNSUPERVISED ACCESS to UNSECURED BALLOTS prior to the election, as well as this list:

*failure to maintain ballot security
*Inability to implement and maintain a trackable system for voter ballot reconciliation .
*failure to prepare and develop a plan for the processing of the voluminous amount of voter registration forms received.
*issuance and acceptance of incorrect absentee ballot forms.
*manipulation of the process involving the 3% recount.
*disjointed implementation of the Directive regarding the removal of Nader and Camejo from the ballot .
*failure to properly issue hospital ballots in accordance with statutory requirements.
*failure to maintain the security of poll books during the official canvass
*failure to examine campaign finance reports in a timely manner.
*failure to guard and protect public documents ....etc.
**************
and read this about the effects of registration "mishaps" and purges:

-October 4, 2004 was filing deadline for new voter registrations. At that point there were approximately 20,000 unprocessed voter registration applications with less than a month before the election. One mail tray containing 4,500-7,000 (estimates vary) unprocessed Project Voter registrations were discovered on or about October 18,2004.
SOURCE: SOS Investigation pg 10

***Of interest here is information obtained from the SOS website entitled ElectionsVoter/results 2003 and 2004 which show the # of registered voters number change from 03-04 was 11,947 in Lucas County: reg voters 2003 in Lucas=288,190 ; registered voter in 2004=300,137.

*****************
WE GOT OUT THE VOTE BUT DIRTY TRICKS NEGATED THE EFFORTS. WE MUST ADDRESS THIS , AS WELL AS GOTV.

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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. We got out the vote and they also got out the vote
There was record getting-out-the-vote on both sides.

You say that GOTV is not enough. In that case we are doomed because there is little likelihood of changing election guidelines when we are the minority party and the majority party needs these rule changes to keep voter turn out below fraud proof levels.

In any case I don't see an argument for making "The GOP Steals Election" the top campaign issue for dems this November in your response to my last post. If you keep reading a claim that nothing should be done about election fraud in my posts you are misreading.

I agree that election fraud should be dealt with. I disagree that it should be part of the dems campaign messaging. It will cause people who believe the dem message not to vote.

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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Dems won in 2000, Dems registered more voters in 2004, last votes to
counted in Ohio were precincts where voters experienced long lines (High Dem) and nationwide-the LEFT coast.


2004 ELECTION FRAUD SUMMARY
Gore 2000 repeat voters + huge
Democratic new voter registration in
2004 (Dems 57%, Repubs 41%) + huge
jump of Nader voters to Kerry = a 4 to
8 million vote margin for Kerry that
inexplicably disappeared on election
day. (--2nd report by Dr. Steven Free-
man.)

I don't think we are doomed. I think we need to put efforts in assuring our votes count. Here are some suggestions:

1. Make sure our base is registered not purged.
2. Make sure our base knows EXACTLY where to vote.
3. Make sure our base has correct IDs where IDs are necessary.
4. Prepare election protection with affidavits.
5. Suggest Dem voters mail in (or better yet drop off) postcards with name and contact info to use if totals are off. (ie if precinct 1 recorded 80 votes for Dem but received 100 Dem postcards, we can use contact info to collect affidavits on how votes were cast for law challenges.)
6. Videotape incidents of intimidation.


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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
47. it's quite clear to me that the only "respect" you'll accept....
Edited on Mon Jun-26-06 12:27 PM by tomp
...is total agreement with your point. ain't gonna happen. we are poles apart on this issue. if you consider that a "'tude" good luck swaying opinion. you haven't come close to swaying mine. neither you or gotv substantively addressed the issue of why the dems aren't putting this issue front and center. to merely reassert that it is not an issue is bogus. to suggest that obtaining a landslide victory is a reasonable straegy to overcome election fraud is, for one thing, begging the question, and for another, exremely unlikely. in my opinion they can and will alter vote counts to high levels of percentage points and dare us to do something about it. if you have evidence they're not going to do that or are not capable of doing that i'd love to see it. all evidence suggests that major manipulation has taken place and will take place in broad daylight and in large numbers.

again i say, EXPLAIN to me why this is not at the top of democratic party strategy. merely stating that it is not a problem will not be sufficient when it so obviously is.

edit: response is directed to distressedamerican.
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. "With All Due Respect: BULLSHIT."
Edited on Mon Jun-26-06 12:34 PM by DistressedAmerican
I always know an ass right off when they start a post like that. That is the 'tude I was referring to. Have fun trying to sway anyone with a prickish approach like that. I have no problem with disagreement. I have do have a problem with prickishness.

As to the rest of your post, like I said above, feel free to read the rest of my posts. I have already responded to your complaints when they were put in a civil tone bu others.

Since you still can't seem to do that, you are welcome to piss off as I put you on ignore. I do not waste my time.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. ah, ignore, the last resort of a wimp with no argument.
if you won't deal with me, what's the point of your post. do you think your offhanded condemnation of everyone who doesn't agree with you is going to accomplish something besides rallying the people who do agree with you?

go ahead, ignore, and check back in after november and see how the landslide turned out.

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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. Is the point posting to deal with you specifically?
"if you won't deal with me, what's the point of your post." Yes. Why post unless it's to deal with you! Mod mom disagrees with the OP and no is ignoring her.

Perhaps the point of posting is to have civil discussion with those less offensive. Could that be it?
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ray of light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
30. apparently, people are so disheartened they're not even
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
36. And after the blowout, we need to have our own
Orange Revolution if they steal it again.
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Ron Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
37. After reading most of the posts in this thread, I still have the same
question that has eluded a satisfactory answer to me for several years: Can the masses be sufficiently educated beyond their fear and immediate self-interest to reject the clear message of the Republicans and embrace the complex (and often fuzzy) message of the Democrats?

My view is that the Republican noise and spin machine knows exactly how far it can go, and will use the Big Lie to the keep the voting margin within stealable limits. After all, the least-qualified jerk ever to set foot in the White House, much less live there, won millions of votes, and then did it again 4 years later.
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. Yes, they will try....
... to "keep the voting margin within stealable limits." and that's where you and I come in. If every Kerry voter made it a point to do some time working for a progressive candidate or issue a few hours a month we could overcome the GOP spin machine. That would be many millions of people countering the distortions of corporate media.

Of course most Kerry voters, like most people, will not work for the election but that's no reason for you and I not to (although it is disheartening that so few turn out to work)

I can't answer your main question. Simple people like simple answers. But, I don't know. We've tried stupid for 6 years now, maybe people are ready for a more nuanced foreign policy than "bring it on".
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
38. I Totally Agree, Defeatists Are Part Of The Problem
and I sometimes wonder if they are trolls -- the message "oh why even try" is exactly what THEY want us to feel, so we will do nothing, not even vote.

It's one thing to acknowledge problems and propose awareness or fixes, but another to constantly declare hoplessness, those people are going on my "ignore" list. We have to time or energy to waste on Eyores this election season.
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #38
42. Yes, and we need to push for wins while we still can.
With each election cycle the options become more limited. In Ohio they're playing all kinds of games. I cannot do voter registration like I spent so much of 2004 doing because of Blackwell's rule changes.

They will keep throwing obstacles in our path and each cycle the win will be harder.

Once we win, we will be in a better position to make the changes that are needed. I just hope we do (win AND make the changes)
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
44. SHOW UP AND ***DEMAND*** YOUR RIGHTS--YOU RUN THE SHOW
Edited on Mon Jun-26-06 12:03 PM by autorank
The message to the arrogant in power is that we know our rights, to vote without a lot of garbage, and we're showing up every single time and demanding those rights. There have been schemes to discourage voting forever:

- literacy tests
- restrictive qualifications
- unavailable assistance
- changed precincts
- lousy equipment
- long lines
- structural changes like totally unbalanced districts
where it seems like your vote never counts
- threatened/actual challenges to voters
- rude elections officials
- police cars near the precinct
- ridiculous rules about who can be near the precinct
- on and on

RESIST AND FIGHT BACK AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS WHO CREATE THE CONDITIONS
THAT DISCOURAGE PARTICIPATION IN OUR DEMOCRACY.

IT'S OUR DEMOCRACY, OUR ELECTIONS...SHOW UP, INSIST ON YOUR RIGHTS, MAKE THEM SWEAT


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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
45. if we don't vote they won't have to steal it. if they don't have to steal
it we won't get to catch, convict, imprison them. And get punitive damages.
that alone should be worth a massive gotv, let alone fixing their damage.
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
50. Join Preserve Our Democracy and FIGHT election fraud through awareness
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
52. Is it that we "feel" beaten, or is it that we have "actually been beaten"?
Edited on Mon Jun-26-06 03:19 PM by Pooka Fey
When I look at the efforts to GOTV in 2004 and take back the White House, and then watch the exit poll numbers being massaged on TV to more accurately reinforce the vote-switching; when the candidate and the party that PROMISED that what happened in Florida in 2000 wouldn't happen in '04 and please won't you send in your money for our team of lawyers that is standing by ready to swoop in and protect our votes, the morning after concession by John Kerry...well many of us know the story. I'd consider trillions missing from the Treasury unaccounted in the coffers of Halliburton, an endless war that we were lied into, every single American carrying a debt of $80,000 thanks to a never elected despot, the construction of a palace in Baghdad that supersedes anything constructed by Saddam Hussein, torture, spying on US citizens - exactly how atrocious does the system under which we live have to be before you can say - "well, I guess the good citizens of this country are beaten."?

You seem to be angry at those of us who have looked at this (from a recent historical perspective of 6 years) and concluded that playing in a rigged game makes no sense. You seem to be proposing that we continue to play, pretending that we have some measure of control over their cheating and disenfranchisement. Why can't you admit that we have no control over this by lining up at the polling places and voting? We've done that, and it didn't work.

Repeating the same action over and over and expecting a different result is a marker of insanity. It's also a marker of addiction. I'm one of the "negative" posters who answered your poll the other night, because people like you who say "Hey guys, lets win back the House and the Senate and the Presidency, if we just TRY HARDER this time we can do it!!!" are as much a part of the problem as the RNC and the neocons. Your heart is in a better place, but you perpetuate a fantasy that must be broken in order to be remedied.

We tried harder already. Now it's time to try smarter. You conveniently ignored that this particular negative poster proposed participating in "Parallel Elections", providing a paper trail for a recount to more openly challenge the machine totals. At no time did I propose to abandon our democracy - you provided that idea without any input from me. I said particularly, that we had been blessed with a democratic process for 220 years, and if we were ever going to return the USA to that particular system of government - we were going to have to deal with election fraud. Pretending we can vote our way out of fascism is delusional.

I can't say I'm doing the work of Mod Mom and Autorank, and LandShark, and TIA and others who I've failed to credit but who regularly post in the ER&D forum. I thank heaven for these people. I can't really personally say I'm doing much except engaging people like you, who are refusing to recognize the gravity and seriousness of this situation by talking about who ya gonna vote for in 2006 (4 months from now)? I will work for parallel elections, I will stay informed, I will engage in discussion. What I won't stand for is to be called a "defeatist" because I refuse to play my assigned part by those who cannot bring themselves to accept the reality of our dire situation.

Edit: grammar
Edit 2: "beaten" used in the sense of "beaten in these particular battles" not "eternally and irrevocably beaten". Many great generals have been beaten in numerous battles, and remained stoic enough to continue fighting to eventual victory. We have a long conflict ahead of us.
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. You Are Right. Why SHould Any OF Us Reach Out To The Voters?
"Why can't you admit that we have no control over this by lining up at the polling places and voting? We've done that, and it didn't work."

I see it all so clearly now.

Fuck registering. The hell with voting in this rigged system. No one's vote will count anyway.

All of those folks that go vote are fools.

Why bother?



You lost me at "you are as much a part of the problem as the neocons". Fucking stupid thing to say given my track record of working this and many other issues. Like I do not understand or accept the problem exists.

I just think that rolling over and refusing to vote or discouraging those who will vote from doing so is utterly counterproductive regardless of the other measures you are taking. When you have a more effective tool in your hand than that, call me.

The more they turn off from voting, the easier they win or steal it. And you say that I'm as much of a problem as the neocons?
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. Oh brother. Let's all just yell at each other and then maybe we'll win.
If you can't bother to listen/read the opinions of others, than you will never be smarter than you are right now. And if you can turn down the dial on your emotions, maybe some rational action might find a way through the maelstrom - something other than yelling at the people on your own side of this issue, that is. If you bothered to finish reading my post before running off to cussing land, you would have seen that I support the Parallel Election movement. That means when voters vote on the machines, they stop at the booth to vote again on paper. Then when the machine count and the paper count and the exit polls don't match up, you have something concrete in your hand to show why there is a problem. I think there are interests that will do everything in their power to prevent parallel election workers from doing their job. Or maybe we should just work even harder this time, even though Congress is on the verge of repealing the Voting Rights Act of 1965 so that the Republicans can disenfranchise minority voters legally; and then we can win next time - even though that didn't work in 2000, 2002, and 2004.
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Turn Down the Dial On MY Emotions?
OK...

Funny thing is that you have not listned to a word I have said. I fully support efforts to correct the problem. I think we should be doing everything possible to fix it.

What we do not need are short and pointless one liners about how"is it pointless to vote (or be extension to work toward others doing so) because they are just going to steal it."

I think I have made it repeatedly clear that this post is not directed at those who are doing something about the problem. It is directed at the folks bitching and doing nothing.

Would you explain to me why several of you ASSUME for some reason that I oppose these efforts or have a problem with folks working them? Want to point that out to me. So far most of the critics I've had on theis thread have not grasped that at all. They have kneejerked and made a bunch of assumptions about my not agreeing with them.

Maybe youy should re-read and think about that.
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IdaBriggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #54
69. "All of those folks that go vote are fools." -- And that's how a lot of
them are feeling.

Look, DA, its all great to rally the troops -- Rah! Rah! Rah! -- but the math is biting, and the amount of money / resources being put into COMBATING ELECTION FRAUD is pretty minor.

I taught Red Cross "First Aid / CPR" for over ten years, and one of the things we focused on were the "ABC's" -- Check Airway, Breathing, and Circulation. You check the airway first, because if the airway is blocked, then no air can get in, and the person will die. Then you check for Breathing, because if the person can't breathe, they will die. Last but not least, you check for Circulation (heartbeat), because if a person has no heartbeat, they will die. If all three things aren't working, the patient will die, but we approach the "most critical" parts of the problem first.

It is extremely important to get voters educated about the issues (Breathing), and to the polls (Circulation). The problem is that the AIRWAY -- the vote counting -- is blocked, and the patient (DEMOCRACY) is dying.

And people are noticing. You don't think folks noticed that there was a problem in New Mexico, where precincts with 80% registered Democrats had ZERO VOTES for Kerry? Or in small town Ohio, where an unknown liberal african-american judge with no advertising budget got thousands of more votes than Kerry did?

They are pissed off, and the worst part of it is that they feel HELPLESS. They've done their part -- they've gotten educated, registered, and to the polls -- but it isn't enough. They aren't computer wizards, or election workers; they pay OTHER PEOPLE to do the right thing -- and somehow, despite all of the checks and balances we've built into the system, ITS NOT WORKING.

Someone else made a brilliant point a few weeks ago about how the real problem is that OUR LAWS ON THIS TOPIC aren't being enforced. When Katherine Harrison disenfranchised tens of thousands of minority voters with her illegal "purge" of "similar" names, she should have ended up in jail. Instead, she ended up in Congress. This level of corruption is self perpetuating, and we need to fix it --

BUT HOW???

Once we answer that question, I'm confident we can go back to making sure everything else is under control. In the meantime, we simply have to keep working at solving the FIRST problem. Its really just a matter of A, and then B, and then C....
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
58. Hopefully, there's enough out there to stir, or at least feed, suspicions
about the stolen elections, especially if RFK Jr. pursues this. I couldn't agree more about not letting the rigged election threat get us down! The answer is - to make sure we beat the snot out of them - with margins SO lopsided it'd be impossible to steal. And if they still do, enough suspicion may already be aroused to motivate somebody to look into it seriously - or for the people in the affected area to rise up. Hey, look: THEY had their "angry mob" intimidating the vote counters in Florida in late 2000. WHY can't we have OUR angry mob? Besides, OUR angry mob would be entirely legitimate, instead of a cabal of republi-CON congressional staffers masquerading as angry voters.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
63. So, just don't back down on the fight for election transparency
Demand a CA-50 recount. Sue the bastards in whatever venue you can. And keep working for progressive Dems, and make sure they are clued in to the issue.
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iconoclastNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-26-06 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
64. People have been saying that since 2000
Every election cycle our work gets harder.

Ulimately the election issue may need to be resolved the way Ukraine dealt with it.
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JudyM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
67. We can all take action. See IndyOp's thread, linked here, for great ideas
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

This is an impressive, comprehensive, well-organized list of things anyone can do at any level of involvement. I recommend it to anyone who is interested at all in improving our lot, or even those who know folks to whom it would be productive to forward it.

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IdaBriggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
68. Another option is to begin practicing election fraud ourselves.
Just saying. Not that its a good idea or anything -- personally, I consider it treason.

But maybe a couple of elections where "Micky Mouse" and "Daffy Duck" are the announced winners could be fun. Might even get the attention of "some" people.

Just saying. :evilgrin:
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
72. Of Course We Feel Like Sh*t Around Here! They Called off Fitzmas!
You'll have to forgive us a bit of despair under the circumstances.

Even then I don't think I saw anybody tell anybody not to vote.
It has always been my position that we should at least make them go to the trouble of stealing it.

Republicans have no problem projecting confidence,


That is because they are con artists!

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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
73. Doesn't matter if they are going to steal it...I will still vote.
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