Has Anyone Here Ever Been to North Korea??

[BayCityProgressive]

With all of this North Korea stuff in the news, it has made me more curious about this hermit nation. I have read many chilling reports on the country and I know outsiders do have limited access. Has anyone here been to this nation and if so...what is it like on the inside?

[Redstone]

1. Good Lord, no. It would make me want to commit suicide, seeing

the way those poor people live, if you can call it living.

Redstone

[Joey Liberal]

2. Been to the DMZ

Scary place.

[Taverner]

3. No but I talked to some who have

Pyongyang is beatufiul, unfinished and desolate. The elderly, handicapped and pregnant (?!?!) are not allowed within the city.

Everywhere else is hanging on by bare threads.

Apparently it's just barely more humane than Pol Pot's Democratic Kampuchea.

[BayCityProgressive]

5. yeah that is

the basic story I have read everywhere. It sounds like a truly horrible place. It is too bad there is no internal opposition we could help fund with money or intelligence. I am betting most people therre are completely brainwashed by now though..

[Taverner]

6. Yup

My friend was part of the Russian Consul in Thailand at the time. He used to be part of the Russian Embassy in North Korea.

Basically, imagine if the Khmer Rouge were never stopped...and all the dissent was either killed or fled to South Korea (or China), and things stayed the way they were for over 50 years.

Kind of sends chills down your spine doesn't it?

[dysfunctional press]

37. imagine if the republican right in the u.s. were never stopped...

...and all the dissent either imprisoned, died off, or fled to canada or mexico, and things stayed the way they were for over 50 years.

Kind of sends chills down your spine doesn't it?

[Taverner]

38. Yes, the US would look much like Texas sans Austin

A good "it can happen anywhere" scenario.

Remember the Germans said it could never happen there, in the land of Beethoven and Bach...

[maxsolomon]

4. i once saw a powerpoint presentation somewhere

the stuff the doctor who made it was allowed to photograph was way depressing. empty streets.



apparently this building (the Ryugyong Hotel) got built but never got occupied. MAN that's some fascist (but kinda cool in a Blade Runner way) architecture.

[Gatchaman]

7. Here's an amazing link

to a huge number of pictures taken mostly by a russian businessman.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82755

Really incredible stuff.

[smirkymonkey]

8. Wow - those photos are incredible.

Definately worth a look, although I don't know if I would want to visit for more than a day (If it were possible.) It's looks very depressing.

[sweetheart]

13. looks very much like south korea

The old cities, and the rural areas look the same... no suprise its "korea" after all.

The whole place is massively "cut" from modern warfare. The power of mankind to
destroy, unleashed in 1950 was damaging indeed.

"that" was the fearsome korea that is the threat of the bush administration...

Those roadblock icecubes are all over south korea as well, expecially north of seoul along
between the DMZ and south places, that tanks and vehicles would be delayed on an invasion.

I guess this happens to your country when 3 major powers fight wars between each other
on your soil.

[New Government]

14. What???

The DPRK (North Korea) gets all kinds of money from China. They would wither and die otherwise. Have you seen pictures of Seoul, South Korea? It's VITAL and a CITY. To compare the two as if they are the "same" is crazy. Is that what you are suggesting?

On edit: This is one issue that is NOT about Bush. North Korea has been a bizarre nation run by the Kim family for decades in the same cruel and , well, WEIRD way. Bush has nothing to do with it.

[sweetheart]

17. I did travel quite a bit in SK, and when you get in to the countryside,

The small farms are done without tractors. I agree with you about the center of seoul,
and even in the burbs around, however, you can find the equivalent neighborhoods that
look like that "old" town.

I know what you're saying, and i was expecting the photos to show something worse.

I thought SK looked quite similar, and could pretty much find you an equivalent photo
for all of them in SK. I'm sure all the "bad" parts were off camera.

Saint Petersberg looks a lot like those photos too, and Romania... it looks like asian
-typical police-state commu-poverty. And all of it came about because of US/Russain/Japanese
and Chinese geo-slavery, each selling off the korean people's fortune down the toilet.
The starving poor are probably in the countryside and urban shantytowns, much like they are
in the US and in Mexico.

[New Government]

18. Well.....

A lot of what you say is true. But the poorest of the poor in the US and Mexico have access to food and live like Kings and Queens compared to the poor of the DPRK. In NK, it's not as simple as shelters supported by kind-hearted people and progressive minded governments.

[sweetheart]

27. luvin' that old time religion

"But the poorest of the poor in the US and Mexico have access to food and live like Kings and Queens compared to the poor of the DPRK."

that kings and queens remark is viral rovian lie. Lots of the american poor are systematically imprisoned
and turned towards violence and a life without hope. That is not kings and queens. Your talking point
is coming from the right wing media, this new reframing of american poverty as kings and queens.

About 1/3rd of the world's urban population, they say about 1.4 billion people, live in utter poverty
around the globe, in urban shantytowns. The new american poverty is to just join the club, and there
is no exceptionalism, none, i'm sorry. The poverty is sickly worse, as your wages are garnished
to fund wars against poor people, as if that's a consolation for rising in to the middle classses.

Oh the things slaves will do to other slaves to survive. The new global poverty is a demographic
timebomb for neoliberalism. The population of just the urban poor will exceed the pouplation of
the earth when I was born. That explosion is louder than 9/11 and is heard everywhere on earth,
with no american exeptionalism, none whatsoever.

[New Government]

28. So, it's better in North Korea?

Zimbabwe? The Congo? Bangladesh? Ethiopia? If you are so deluded as to think that poverty in America is just like poverty anywhere else....and to think that believing differently is a "Rovian lie," is beyond help. Is poverty a problem in America? YES. Are there masses of poor who have no access to food? Absolutely not! You are so full of despair at the current political situation that you fail to see that even in Bush's America, we still have shelters, we still have thousands of organizations that work in our urban areas and inner cities to feed the hungry - that an INFRASTRUCTURE is in place to help which is simply non-existent i many other countries. And by the way, much of that money aiding the poor in many of those countries come from where?? The fact that the poorest here live like, "Kings and Queens" compared to some of these other places is true, it's a basic common-sense truth. It never crossed my mind that someone could be so blinded by hatred of the current government that you see the obvious as a "right wing talking point." Fortunately, Democratic programs have been in place in this country (food stamps, etc) combined with massive private help, that make going without almost impossible if one truly wants to eat. The biggest problems are those with unfortunate mental disorders that prevent them from seeking out the help. This business (could you possibly believe it?) about the U.S. poverty actually being worse than some of the countries mentioned above is beyond the pale.

Bottom line: Would the poorest of the poor in the USA trade places with someone in North Korea? The Congo? NO. End of story. End of that being a "Rovian lie." And saying that the poorest here live like Kings and Queens compared to the poorest of Zimbabwe (for example) says more about how BAD the poverty is there than it does about anything here. It amazes me how simple observation that doesn't require a PhD. in Economics or a subscription to Granma can be so controversial. Have you ever considered you fail to give what good there IS in this country the credit it deserves? Being a Democrat should not mean America Is Bad - worse than anywhere else. The flooding across the Southern border proves just how wrong that is.

At its core, America is a great country. FAR beyond the crooks in the White House now. Don't let the lies of the CBC and the naysayers who have always worked against our interests as a nation feed YOU the big lie.

Poverty is bad, but North Korea - it ain't.
<end of rant>

[Yollam]

30. That is not what the poster said.

But to say that people who may have a crappy TV and some government cheese in a roach-infested apartment, who may not have enough for food at the end of the month are "living like kings and queens" compared to the hungry people living in totalitarian N. Korea, that *IS* a lie (more Limbaugh than Rove) You are comparing paupers to paupers.

That's not to say we don't all prefer life in America to life in N. Korea, it's better here by a long shot, and there are more chances to escape poverty here. But there is dire and intractible poverty here, and I will NEVER pooh-pooh it the way repukelicans do.

[sweetheart]

32. What a tragedy you feel it needs to be compared

Really, its fallen pretty low when "our poverty is better than yours."

But the relativism is pretty murky out there, and US poverty is criminalized and
absolutely horrendous, as if katrina did not blow a little in to the mainstream.
US poverty is prison-slavery and this link to a compelling personal account surely
can show you how US poverty is better, and the same:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=216&topic_id=3703&mesg_id=3722
http://www.freetheslaves.net/
http://www.injusticeline.com/slave2.html
http://www.sfbayview.com/030806/usprison030806.shtml

You straw man about my "hate" for the current administration bleeding over on to the republic,
and that's not true. The US corporate republic is spreading an economic system that has
MORE PEOPLE IN SLAVERY than ever before in history. We're back to that, and it doesn't
matter if we outsource our slaves to the slums of manilla or mexico city, that poverty is
ours too, in the greater cesspool of american foreign policy.

If the US had any track record of positive intervention to erradicate poverty, there would
be some inspiration. But what we have instead is the world's largest prison population,
bar none, and a series of failed states, from columbia to mexico, haiti to the phillipines
where the US direct intervention has perpetuated failed states and poverty of tragic
proportions purposefully in its mission to dominate imperially and asset strip peoples
from any power to become rich nations.

The US system has no fucking business being compared to DPRK, and i don't have any
illusions that the tin-pot fantasy of the kim dynasty is a poor substitute for a life,
but between iraq, and NK, right now, i'd wager i'd have a better chance of surviving as
a common citizen in DPRK. So there you have it, if the US is involved, watch out, or
your citizens will just get shot, and no worries about poverty when they're dead.

You're on about american opportunity society, and that exists if you "live". But with
a third-world child mortality rate: http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm
Social mobility is higher in european countries and other rich nations as the republican
system of class stratification and income distribution strips away what ladders remain
to changing ones circumstances. And what remains is poverty without liberty, without
democracy and without hope. There is no need to compare to anybody and for the
world's richest nation, to be so small and puerile that we even need to compare
is truly embarassing beyond measure.
http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Literacy_total_population_dall.htm
http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Life_expectancy_at_birth_female_dall.htm
http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Life_expectancy_at_birth_Male_dall.htm
http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Military_expenditures_Percent_Of_GDP_dall.htm

The new american exceptionalism is the brassy ignorance of how embarassing it has become
for the world's "richest" nation. Our only competition should be ourselves in achieving
an AAA+++ rating, and instead, its looking more banana republic.

[New Government]

44. Beyond the pale, that comment is just crazy

The US system has no fucking business being compared to DPRK, and i don't have any
illusions that the tin-pot fantasy of the kim dynasty is a poor substitute for a life,
but between iraq, and NK, right now, i'd wager i'd have a better chance of surviving as
a common citizen in DPRK. So there you have it, if the US is involved, watch out, or
your citizens will just get shot, and no worries about poverty when they're dead.

Delusional. And you think Democrats will win elections with people like you spouting crap like that? Not a single Democratic member of the House or Senate would agree with you. Not one. Zip. Nada.

What is happening to DU? Seriously! It's like it has been infiltrated (and I'm not accusing any one poster) by:

A) ANSWER agitators who still live in 1968

or

B) Those who don't believe a word they write and only desire DU to be seen as a house of loons.

[northzax]

31. yes, you are correct

in almost any country you can find this type of grinding poverty and despair. of course, in most countries, that is limited to small pockets, in North Korea, the alternative is limited to small pockets.

I was offered a trip last summer on an exchange program and agonized about whether to go. I finally deicded not to, because I want nothing to do with the government of that god-forsaken hell hole. Seeing the shows they would put on for tourists would break my heart, and knowing that I was being used for propoganda purposes by such a tinpot despot would make me ill. North Korea's problems start and end with the Family Kim.

[maxsolomon]

20. hey, i'll hang it on Bush if i want!

;-)

[New Government]

21. Every single person here is free to be wrong

Kim Jong-Il is a monster that dwarfs even George W. Bush. I saw in your profile under "country" it says, "The US of Goddamn A"......It's pretty clear where you stand. I HATE Bush and his neo-con criminals, but brother, I still LOVE America. Sorry you feel how you do. We need people to love it enough to save it.

[sweetheart]

33. Person?

I agree. GWB has been a civil monster, as they go, thus far, but strategically,
his acts are not played out yet. As a prescient historian, i will give Mr bush,
sole credit for the next 2 world wars, by the ripples of his actions over time.

Those world wars, i estimate, will kill in the hundred millions of people, and
set the human race back centuries in wealth and goodwill, to a feudal dark age,
where new-job-slaves, whos identities are controlled and twisted by the job
definition of the day, where religio/military cultism breaks away in to little
island economies of barbaric self interest in a grab for the world's remaining
survival resources in terms of water and airable climate.

This is way beyond any "person". In the greater record of history, i pray GWB's net-death
toll, including all drugs-war related deaths he's perpetuated, stays less than the kims,
but i wouldn't give you odds on it.

The kills are mounting in the ramp up to a desperate war, or a collapse, and surely
the rogue will choose to john wayne his way out, and bush cheney ends like butch cassidy,
a shootout after a million bank robberies; how romantic.

[maxsolomon]

42. dude, check the smiley

thats a WINK.

[BayCityProgressive]

10. wow the pictures are crazy

what a strange strange place..

[MrSlayer]

11. Nice link.

Thanks. You so rarely get a glimpse at what goes on over there.

[maxsolomon]

12. the old houses are way better

[karlrschneider]

24. Really interesting pics & commentary. THANKS for that

:D

[Carni]

36. That is one ugly city IMO

But thanks for the link -- very interesting photos indeed!

[Minnesota Libra]

9. never been there and no desire to go - the news reports are way...........

....to much for me.:cry:

[Matariki]

15. A great comic-book by a Canadian artist working in North Korea

It's really excellent. Both humorous and sad.

Pyongyang: A Journey in North Korea

http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/1896597890/701-6394628-2888315

[DeaconBlues]

16. The only part of NK that I saw, and I suspect no American except diplomats

has seen for a long time, is the part you see peering out over the DMZ. The only thing I saw was a NK soldier peering back at me.

The pictures from the other site linked here don't look so horrid to me. In fact, it isn't too different from the South Korea I remember from 1989/1990. I know that there is tremendous suffering there that isn't shown in the pictures - but the pictures of people washing clothes in creeks, odd buildings, and old neighborhoods didn't strike me as disturbing.

In fact, the man taking a "pause that refreshes" right out in public with tons of people around was hilarious. I remember South Koreans doing it all the time. My first ride from Kimpo airport to my military base I was shocked to see men doing this along the crowded road. By the time my tour was over, such sights were par for the course.

[Avalux]

19. I've been to the DMZ - border between North and South.

I stood at a South Korean outpost with binoculars and looked at their soldiers across the way, keeping guard with machine guns. They're ready at any time to attack. Both sides watch each other. I felt very vulnerable at that moment; it felt like a war zone. There's land mines littered all through a "no man's land" between the borders - you can't just walk across the border where I was.

There are huge signs in the mountains on the way to the DMZ placed there by the North Koreans, propoganda signs telling the South Koreans how wonderful life is in the North. There's also a fake city - a ghost town, built to look modern and impressive from the highway, but no one lives there. Gigantic North Korean flag flying above - might be the largest flag in the world.

The most moving place I visited was the bridge - there's a memorial on the South Korean side to family members that were trapped in the North and never made it across. Sad to think families were ripped apart like that.

[karlrschneider]

22. I have seen it from the air but never set foot there. Damn few Americans

have. But I'd gladly go for a visit if someone wants to pay my way. ;-)

[Yollam]

23. Just for fun, take a look at N. Korea on Google Earth.

First, look at this photo of the region at night. N. Korea sticks out like a sore thumb.



Now look at the Google earth images:

The first image is the city where I live in Japan, Fukuoka.

The second is Pyongyang, N. Korea. The difference is stunning. You can scan all over the whole city and see almost no cars. All kinds of residential complexes and factories everywhere, but hardly even a bus on the roads. And if there are no cars, why the huge, wide thoroughfares? To allow for large movements of troops and artillery. :-(

[karlrschneider]

25. Interesting but not surprising.

I've been to lots of places in Japan but not to your city, although I did make it to Oita on Kyushu, and all around Honshu and Hokkaido, never managed to visit Shikoku either. I have many dear friends in Japan but sadly have lost touch with most of them over the years since I am mostly retired. I think my favorite place was, oddly perhaps, Hiroshima. :D
konnichi-wa

:D

[Yollam]

26. Konnichi-wa to you too.

Fukuoka is the most livable city in Asia, according to AsiaWeek. It is very nice, population is just right at 1.2 million, people are friendly, the countryside is not so far away, but we have all the city conveniences, and the food is the best and cheapest in Japan. The job market it the worst in Japan, though :(

I have only just passed through Hiroshima, but I imagine it is also a nice size. I spent a lot of time in Nagasaki, which is very nice, also Kyoto and Nara. I prefer the latter.

[MrScorpio]

29. I have

At the DMZ, there is a building that straddles the border betwen North and South Korea. It's used for negotiations. On one side of the table is one country and the other side is the other.

I've been on both sides.

SO, yes.... technically, I've been to North Korea.

[oneighty]

34. On a minesweeper

working from Wonsan to Chonjin on the east coast, back and forth mine sweeping and blockading. If anything moved ashore we shot it. If any fishing boats were sighted we destroyed them.

With binoculars from the bridge of the sweeper the land appeared cold, dark and devoid of living things. We did help to make it so, perhaps for a good reason-I will never know.

180

[DoYouEverWonder]

35. Doesn't look as bad as I thought it would

I've seen much worse.

I wonder what they think when they see pics like this from the USA?

[Taverner]

39. For me the worst part was the barbed wire beaches

Poverty, yeah I've seen that in many countries, most capitalist, a few of them communist.

Farming the land with oxen? I saw that in Thailand. And the farmers said it was better than using a tractor - especially in flooded rice plains.

But barbed wire on beaches - that said it all to me. Cuba didn't have that. Vietnam didn't have that. Laos didn't have that (true, they are landlocked, but along the Mekong River which borders Thailand they didn't have that. Hell, even Burma didn't have that.

What scares me is this is becoming common in guess where? The good ol' US of A. Along our border with Mexico.;

[DoYouEverWonder]

40. Depends on the purpose of the barbed wire

I just have to go across the street from my business, which is in an industrial zone, and there's barbed wire all over the place. Maybe that's why that pic didn't bother me as much, it's something I see everyday.

I understand it's not there to keep me in my own country, but there seems to be a fair number of people on no-fly lists now-a-days and very little they can do to get off them.

[Taverner]

41. Wer're getting there...that's for sure

We're going down a slow road to fascism...just google Rex 84 and you'll see what I mean.

But you can still leave today if you want. You can't do that in NK.

[yurbud]

43. I have a friend whose a communist who went there and tried to put

a nice face on it.

It seemed like a stretch.