The Tin-Foiling of Dan

[WilliamPitt]

This is my friend Dan.



He's a great guy. We've gone to Vegas together to play marathon sessions of poker at Binions. We went back to his hometown of Pittsburgh to watch his beloved Steelers win the Super Bowl (in the worst game ever played, yes, but don't tell him that). Dan is a physicist, usually the smartest guy in any room he walks into, but he's also a "dude," so you'd never know it until you got him talking about work...and then he'll talk your ear off about the machine he built to test what hydrogen does in an argon matrix at some degrees Kelvin.

Most of the time, we don't talk politics. When we do, he is almost always agreeing with whatever might be pissing me off that day. Dan does not like Bush. At all. He has told me on more than one occasion that he relies on me to keep him up to speed on the details, because his existence is somewhat monk-like. He does not have cable or internet in his apartment, and only turns on his television so he can re-watch his "Full Metal Jacket" DVD for the 702nd time. If they aren't talking about it on Opie & Anthony, his favorite radio show, he probably hasn't heard about it. Dan's day: Wake up ---> drive to work ---> work all day ---> drive home ---> crack a beer ---> sleep (or) go to bar ---> repeat.

In the interest of full disclosure, Dan is a registered Republican who voted Bush in 2000 and "None of the Above" in 2004...and yes, I've gone upside his head a thousand times about that, and yes, he deeply regrets it. Dan is a good man, a dude, not super-informed, but smart enough to know better...and smarter than most people I know when it comes to the sciences. He's one of my best friends.

So Dan is out last night with our friends, sampling the new IPA they have on tap. I come cruising in around 10pm, and he pounces on me.

"So they killed Zarqawi, right?" he says.

"Looks like it," I say.

"Oh bullshit!" he roars.

Enter the Dan diatribe: "I saw the pictures of his face, and I saw that video of the attack on the CNN website. There's no fucking WAY he looks that good after that. Christ, he looks like he fell down the stairs! Did you see those two missiles obliterate that building? If he was in there, they'd be picking the splinters out of the splinters before they could even get to his skin. He's got hair on his head and face! The fire didn't get that? My ass. That's not Zarqawi. Total bullshit."

This, by the way, is what Zarqawi survived inside:



For the remainder of the night, I watched him wheel on total strangers when he heard them discussing it, and he'd deliver that same diatribe every time. Arms waving, fists pounding the bar, totally worked up. This went on for hours, and I'm pretty sure he convinced everyone he talked to.

Dan is not a DUer, does not get any alternative newsletters via email, and I sure didn't put the thought into his head. This particular tinfoil hat Dan built himself. I would have had to bungee him to his barstool to keep him from repeating his theory to anyone who'd listen last night. I'm sure he's doing it again today at work.

Whether he's right or wrong is beside the point, as far as I am concerned. What is interesting to me is the manifestation of TOTAL DOUBT coming from a regular guy who is not very media-savvy, and hasn't spent a lot of time working on his bullshit detector. The siren went off on this one, loud and clear.

I gotta wonder...how many more folks like Dan are by the water cooler at work today, calling bullshit on this story. Whether they're right or wrong isn't the point.

As of today, I think, it has come to this: if Bush and the boys announced that water was wet, tens and tens of millions of Americans would jump into the shower to make sure, because they aren't buying what is being sold anymore.

Dan sure isn't. You can see his tinfoil a mile away these days. I just thought it was interesting.

(edited to spell 'Pittsburgh' correctly :) )

[stepnw1f]

1. Two Co-Workers Of Mine Said the Same Thing, Will

I'd say doubt of anything the GOP does or claims will be in doubt for a long time.

[spag68]

17. Pittsburgh with an h.

[stepnw1f]

31. um...okay

I think you responded to the wrong person.

[foo_bar]

33. it's literally Pitt's burgh

Once General Forbes secured the Point for Great Britain, he commissioned a temporary fort (sometimes called Fort Mercer, after its commander) to replace the one the French had left in ashes and ordered that a new, permanent fortification be built of earth, stone, timber, and brick on a site just east of the ruins of Fort Duquesne. Forbes named the area "Pittsbourgh" in honor of William Pitt, the British Prime Minister who had led the successful war against France.

http://www.fortpittmuseum.com/History.html

[sofa king]

115. That's Pitt the Elder, by the way.

Fort Mercer is named after General (then-Colonel) Hugh Mercer, a Scot physician who helped kick out Bonny Prince Charlie at Culloden. He crossed the Delaware with Washington and died shortly thereafter at the battle of Princeton, 1777. He is the ancestor of both Johnny Mercer and George S. Patton (and, it would seem, half of Savannah, Georgia).

[MorningGlow]

57. Same here

After hearing about Zarqawi, an ultrapractical coworker of mine said she's finally a conspiracy theorist. Amazing...

[Coexist]

2. I wish I was having that experience.

In my red, red county all the talk is about how this proves Bush right. How? I don't know.

*sigh* I wish Dan were here.

[Clark2008]

24. I live in a blue city in a red county in a red state and I'm hearing

bullshit called quite a bit - and not by the blue people in the city.

I think people are weary of this war, weary of the lies, weary of this adminstration. Just weary... and wary.

[Coexist]

36. People here are less quiet about criticizing Bush

but I wish I heard more open skepticism. They seem to mostly criticize what has passed, but not question his new statements.

Their goofy "faith" is still there. Little by little, though, it gets better.

Just so you understand how red it is here - the two most popular fundraisers are Clay shoots (please keep in mind that I live in Florida, not Texas, where they might be more common) and Golf tournaments.

[ChiciB1]

96. I TOTALLY Agree With You... As I Sit In My Red Red State & Even

more red red county down here in Florida! Getting ready to post a thread about my overwhelming feeling of apathy. I guess I just DON'T GET IT!!

Nice story, I did enjoy it... I just don't SEE it.

[robinlynne]

3. nice one.

[SteppingRazor]

4. I'll say the same thing I've been saying, I suppose...

1) The only pictures I've seen feature Zarqawi's head and little else, so it's a fallacy to say he survived "intact." We haven't seen his body.

2) Even if he did survive intact, it's actually quite reasonable. Shockwave, shrapnel and the building collapsing are just as likely to kill the guy as the initial explosion.

And I'll add,
3) Given the picture you posted there, it seems that building collapse is a pretty likely cause of death.

Moreover, Cui bono? Bush isn't going to say he got Zarqawi when he didn't -- Zarqawi will just make him look moronic in his next audio tape. And the idea that we killed him a while ago but saved the news till now raises more questions than it answers. I'm willing to keep an open mind about Bush duplicitousness -- Christ, at this point, what rational person wouldn't be? -- but as Freud once said, "Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar."

Of course, I acknowledge the point you're making though. The fact that a moderate, mostly politically unaware fellow invents a wild-eyed conspiracy theory about Zarqawi is very telling. It speaks a lot to the general mood of the nation.

[WilliamPitt]

8. I tried to talk him out of it, actually

Playing devil's advocate, using mostly the points you described above.

He wasn't buying it. When I told him about the reports that Zarqawi survived for a little while after the attack, I thought his head was going to fly off his shoulders. "I saw the video of the attack," he kept repeating. "No fucking way."

So there it is. :)

[SteppingRazor]

18. Hell, I believe quite a few things that are often labeled "CT" myself...

but not this one. The given explanation just seems the most rational, simple and even the most believable in this case. And there's no reason to believe otherwise, apart from an a priori refusal to believe anything the administration says, which I can't get behind and still be a rational observer of events.


It's interesting that this, of all things, is what sent your friend off into tinfoilry, when there's so many more likely :tinfoilhat: stories. But what the hell. At least people are considering other possibilities, which offers hope of a more open mind when news breaks of future suspicious events.

And hell, Will, you and I both know that's bound to happen before too long. "Suspicious events" are the hallmark of the Bush years -- well, that and bombing things.

:toast:

[Sammy Pepys]

39. Where did he see it....

...if he doesn't have cable?

[WilliamPitt]

45. CNN.com has the video

and he has internet at work.

[kentuck]

16. Was his leg still missing ??

Or had he grown a new one? :)

[Sydnie]

5. Scientist believe in science

and this equation isn't adding up for him. Perhaps we should listen to him too.

[Stand and Fight]

6. Recommended. n/t

[rman]

7. I think the "Zarqawi didn't die"-thing is a distraction

from more interesting info re Zarqawi.

such as

A reminder about the al-Zarqawi psy-ops and who the "audience" is
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1380886

Greg Palast: UNREPORTED: THE ZARQAWI INVITATION
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1389471

Ray McGovern confronts Rumsfeld about his lies concerning Zawqawi and Iraq
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1391318

Gen. Kimmitt "The Zarqawi PSYOP program is the most successful
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1382894&mesg_id=1382894

[WilliamPitt]

10. Agreed

but the doubts are directed towards Bush & Co...and make it a lot easier for people to hear the kind of info you have there. Dan was super-interested to hear it last night.

[mdmc]

9. bottom line - ya can't trust the BFEE at all

many Americans feel this way...

[spuddonna]

11. Dan sounds like my brothers...

The big debate is between these two theories: 1) Zarq was on ice (literally) cause he was dead. They took pics to release at an opportune time, or 2) They did just find him, but they had him in custody and worked him over so bad, they killed him. So they decided to use the pics to, again, boost poll numbers.

And before other Pittsburghers jump on yer ass, it's 'Pittsburgh'... gotta remember the 'h'. People act like you've committed murder if you drop the 'h'... :)

[WilliamPitt]

13. Fixed

:)

[spuddonna]

25. (whew)

That was close! lol The last thing you need the Yinzer Mafia after you... ;)
(And before anyone flames me, I was born a yinzer(Cheswick), so I know from whence I speak!)

[WilliamPitt]

26. Post 17

I wasn't fast enough. :)

[spuddonna]

32. LMAO!!!

As one of our hometown legends, Mr. Myron Cope, would say, "Double Yoi!"

[DemReadingDU]

28. Zarq on ice - very interesting!

When I first heard that Zarq was dead, I figured Fitz was about to announce that Rove was indicted. Seems too conveninet that BOOM! And all the media is talking about how the most evil terrorist was dead (what happened to Osama Bin Laden!) So what does Bush NOT want the media to talk about?

[spuddonna]

43. There have been so many lies, who knows what to believe?

I think that this admin. has mastered the use of 'distraction media'. I think that is why people are prone to picking up their copies of "1001 Conspiracy Stories"...

Hey, I even hear some of these tinfoily covered ideas and think, "That could happen..."

[coalition_unwilling]

61. Notice how Hadditha (and its ilk) have been driven from

the headlines?

[DemReadingDU]

63. Exactly!

just how long has ole Zarq really been dead?

[BrklynLiberal]

72. That is more likely than he is still alive. That is the tinfoil theory I

vote for. :tinfoilhat:

I would also go out to test the water if BuchCo told me it was wet. NOTHING they say should be taken as true unless verified several hundred thousand times.

[Protagoras]

90. I've heard a number of people speculate on #1

and I find #2 highly plausable. Pick almost any large company in the country...then go into their marketing department and see how carefully they mine their data, shape their message, and market their product.

Now look at the the administration and pentagon as a corruptly ran 10 trillion (know that's low) dollar business that uses the Pentagon, FBI, CIA, etc. etc. to market their products.

I may not KNOW the truth of what happened. But I can be fairly certain that whatever I'm being presented with is a carefully constructed message designed for maximum impact. That's a basic of business and government...both of which the Neocons seek to join. Anyone who thinks this crap comes out unmanaged and unscripted is fooling themselves.

[tomp]

104. that's probably the one thing we know for sure. nt

[hfojvt]

93. it's okay to say Pittsburg

here in Kansas.
Is there another city with almost the same name?

[spuddonna]

94. There's a Pittsburg in Kansas?

I did not know that! :)

Will was talking specifically about the Iron City, Pittsburgh, PA... Home of Steelers? Confluence of the Three Rivers? :7

[nicktom]

100. There is a Pittsburg here in Socal's Ventura County also. n/t.

[spuddonna]

111. Pittsburg is rather promiscuous!

Perhaps that's why they kept the 'h' in Western Pa... :evilgrin:

[Fovea]

113. I hear there's another town called Independence

over in Missouri!

[Swede]

12. How was the beer?

And,because of the 24/7 bullshit we've been shovled nobody know what to believe anymore.

[WilliamPitt]

15. Tasty

Two Brothers Brewery has a new IPA. Fine stuff.

[bigtree]

14. everyone's full up with the lies

folks have to draw lines. looks like your friend's drawn his.

[redacted]

19. Interesting. Very interesting. On a side note, I must have been watching

(well listening really) either the local evening news, or was it GMA. I think it was GMA, and the news announcer said something to the effect that the military specifically stated that they had cleaned Zarqawi's face for identification. And that's why he looked so good.

It seemed really odd to me. So I looked up and there was that clean, uninjured face. And I thought: what is up there? And why was that mentioned at the end of the newscast -- it seemed to out of the blue -- in verbal (not visual) context.

But back to your friend: he's not a conspiracy theorist -- he's just stating the obvious.

[pacalo]

37. I'm just a housewife & my radar went off when I read this in the NYT...

Pictures of Mr. Zarqawi's body released by the military showed that the top of his shoulders, his neck and his face were intact, with heavy contusions on the left side of his face.

"We had wiped off a lot of the blood and other debris because there was not a need to portray it in any kind of dehumanizing his body," General Caldwell said.

NYTimes: How Surveillance and Betrayal Led to a Hunt's End

Bottom line is, this country has been pschy-opped to death by this administration. I don't question he's dead, just the facts surrounding it.

[Arkansas Granny]

67. I have pretty much the same feelings. I'm pretty sure he's dead

and I'm glad of that, but I don't think we've heard all the facts yet.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

20. Ahhhh...

One of my favorite bylines, here. ;-)

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WilliamPitt]

23. Why don't you tend to your own knitting

and I will tend to mine. I will be sure to let him know that a total stranger was worried about him, though. He'll probably get a kick out of it.

Now I must go abort a fetus, save a whale, smoke a joint, make a protest sign, convince some kids that God is a lie, raise your taxes, surrender to al Qaeda, and do whatever else is in my power to reinforce the stereotypes you dread so deeply.

Just to piss you off.

[stepnw1f]

27. excellent (nt)

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WilliamPitt]

44. Yes, thanks, I'm here all week, try the veal

and remember: your personal opinion is terribly important to me. You, specifically. I am in orbit around you. I hover over you, like the blue man in the Chagal....because your concern for my friend is touching.

When you start making sense, when your motives are not so demonstrably obvious, you'll get a nicer reply. And no, don't hold your breath.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

50. "But people like me (or just me) are still trolls, cretins, and fuckwits"

If the shoe fits...

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

98. Damn, I showed up to the party too late. nt

[Wetzelbill]

114. me too

wayyy to late. :)

[WilliamPitt]

52. The way the point zoomed past your head

makes me imagine the part it made in your hair. Deep and wide, right down the middle.

The point isn't the tinfoil theory, but the fact that a regular guy (not an internet weenie glued to his keyboard watching the WTC collapse over and over again to see where the controlled demolition happened thanks to FEMA and the North Korean Opium Tong) got his bottle filled up with bullshit and isn't buying even the most straightforward here's-a-dead-body info from this administration.

That bodes ill for Bush and the boys...and yes, because that point was made crystal-clear, I question your motives every time you comprehensively fail to apprehend it.

Maybe you're just thick...but I don't think so.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WilliamPitt]

58. Seriously, dude

Thanks for the coexistence emoticon ( :) ) but you're still not grabbing the point. You wrote, "If your point was that you think Dan is representative of Bush's base then I think you not only did a poor job explaining that, it show in my opinion a seriously obscured view."

I wrote:

Dan is not a DUer, does not get any alternative newsletters via email, and I sure didn't put the thought into his head. This particular tinfoil hat Dan built himself. I would have had to bungee him to his barstool to keep him from repeating his theory to anyone who'd listen last night. I'm sure he's doing it again today at work.

Whether he's right or wrong is beside the point, as far as I am concerned. What is interesting to me is the manifestation of TOTAL DOUBT coming from a regular guy who is not very media-savvy, and hasn't spent a lot of time working on his bullshit detector. The siren went off on this one, loud and clear.

I gotta wonder...how many more folks like Dan are by the water cooler at work today, calling bullshit on this story. Whether they're right or wrong isn't the point.

As of today, I think, it has come to this: if Bush and the boys announced that water was wet, tens and tens of millions of Americans would jump into the shower to make sure, because they aren't buying what is being sold anymore.

Dan sure isn't. You can see his tinfoil a mile away these days. I just thought it was interesting.

===

If you can find where I tried to paint him as representative of Bush's base, I'm all ears (well, eyes, actually).

He's representative of a great many people. Smart, not super-informed, and fed up.

[ninkasi]

92. Will, I understood your post completely

and I can at times be so scatter-brained that my kids tell me that if I ever get senile, they probably won't notice the difference for a long, long time. Even without your perfectly clear explanation, I think the majority of us got the point. The responses to your post have been removed, they must have been something. Darn! Wish I had found the thread earlier. Thanks, by the way, for sharing the story. More and more people are seeing Bush and his administration as the liars they are.

[ebayfool]

103. Not just total doubt ... explosive, uncontainable, can't take no 'mo doubt

... I've been seeing that from the same nonpolitical animals in my area (which is a raging red pocket in Calif). Bush finally tried to stuff the 10th pound of shit into that 5 pound bag. The seams are giving out, & these people are finally understanding that THEY are holding the bag! And the exploding shit is getting on them. And they are howling about it.

The next most common reaction I've seen is from the dedicated kool-aid drinkers. It's quieter - not what I expected. Instead of jubilation & 'see theres', they have an odd combination of doubtful confusion tinged w/embarrassment. When reminded of how many times he & OBL have been cornered, caught, killed, etc - there is no argument. Just that odd, fearful look of awareness finally dawning. One person that was ALWAYS the biggest booster even pointed out that the dead 2nd-in-commands & the like are the new terror color-code warnings when there is bad news for the white house! This is awesome!

I don't think this is a precipice that they can draw back from - the foundation is too crumbled & giving way.

[motocicleta]

121. 10th lb of shit into that 5 lb bag

That's a keeper.

It's unfortunate that the bag couldn't have split after 6 lbs, but I think you're right about it being a permanent tear now.

[pacalo]

60. What do you do, look for "Will Pitt" to practice your trolling skills?

"When I read a prominent lefty": Who at DU uses that phrasing?

[JeffR]

71. Brilliant graphic!

:toast:

[pacalo]

75. It sure captures their collective soul, doesn't it.

It needs pictures of Halliburton & Faux News inserted in the background to represent the corporatism/cronyism & the news propaganda; then it would be perfect.

:cheers: backatcha!

[Patsy Stone]

89. This is hysterical.

:hi:

[Jigarotta]

81. heh. while you are knitting, Will. Tell us that yarn about the

Rove indictment, please. Please uncle Willie, tell us that story again.It's been four weeks since we heard that one.
;)

[Laurab]

101. Wow some people really build up their post count

just waiting for other people to post so they can harass them. I'd say about 300 posts, but hey, if you've got the time...

oh...:)

[Beetwasher]

29. "...fit nicely into right wing stereotyped talking points..."

:rofl:

Yes, Will's here, singlehandedly destroying us from the inside out. :eyes:

Get a grip, Chester. You sure have a hard on for Will, dontchya? Methinks it's puppy love.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beetwasher]

46. Don't Like Those Words?

Too bad. How about "whiner", too, Chester?

[redacted]

22. Did your friend ever wonder why they only showed us his head? I did.

When the Hussein brothers crumped we got full body shots. Why just a framed head? I asked my husband that . . .why does the Bush admin want to show us dead bodies (because we don't believe them otherwise?)

And why on earth just the head (because Zaq had a thing for beheading people?)

It just all seemed strange to me (see my note above).

I mean really I don't care, it's a distraction. But it's odd.

[Catrina]

53. Because they haven't been told how to explain 'one legged' or 'two legged'

corpse? Personally, I think the real Zarqawi never did have his leg amputated. There are too many reports that say he had two legs.

But, what can the administration do then, about Colin Powell's speech to the UN, where he used Zarqawi's supposed trip to Iraq before the war to show the 'Iraq/Al Queda' link?

This has been a problem for them, ever since the Nick Berg video which the administration claimed showed Zarqawi as the main terrorist. Only problem was, that guy had two legs.

Colin Powell's aide, Wilkerson, says that Colin was skeptical about the information he gave to the UN re Zarqawi's leg, 'but', says Wilkerson, 'it just shows how little we know about the guy'. Nice, since the Zarqawi/Iraq information from Colin Powell was one of two major claims the US used to persuade the American people to go to war in Iraq. NOW, they say, 'gee, well, we weren't sure back then'. When will the investigation begin?

Actually I think that the media, who did actually question the 'wooden leg' theory during the Nick Berg debacle, are asking questions for the same reasons we are. They remember all the contradictions about Zarqawi over the past several years, and the doubts expressed about his status even by top military personel.

How they explain whether this dead Zarqawi has one or two legs, could have implications for Colin Powell and the rest of the WHIG and OSP group in the future.

Iow, if they say this corpse has one leg, then Zarqawi was not responsible for much of what they attributed to him. But if they claim he has two legs, that confirms, (assuming this is Zarqawi) that Colin Powell passed on lies about the Iraq/Al Queda connection to the UN.

Why has no one asked that question yet? I see it as a very important one in relation to the lies told to get this war started.

[rucky]

30. True or not, the point is that there is ZERO trust

in what the Pentagon reports...and CNN, MSNBC & FOX

[Virginia Dare]

34. I think he's dead....

but I don't think he died the way they told us he did.

Here's my theory, somebody turned him over to the U.S. already dead, and the rest was just a big Hollywood production.

:tinfoilhat:

[BoneDaddy]

62. I tend

to agree with ya. I hate the fact that I have to think the government is lying everytime they open their mouth.

[lectrobyte]

35. Lots of folks smell the bullshit. The hard part is getting them to

consider voting for anyone without an "R" by their name. At least from my experience in North Carolina.

[deaniac21]

40. I guarantee you that they've had him on ice just waiting for

whenever bush needs a boost in the polls or to distract Americans from the latest crime. He's probably been dead for at least 4 business weeks.

[Thickasabrick]

86. I totally agree with this - wonder when they'll wheel out Osama?

[countryjake]

42. Just wait til he hears the report that Zarqawi survived the bombing!

Now they are saying that the initial report is true which stated that Zarqawi was still alive when authorities finally entered (what was left of) the building and he actually died right in front of American soldiers, while making a move to get off the stretcher they were holding him on.

Yesterday, everyone was scoffing at that Reuters report, saying it couldn't possibly have happened that way, with the force those two bombs carried. Now, it's becoming the "official story".



(edited to form complete sentence)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

47. That's A Great Story And It Is Extremely Encouraging.

When we've gotten to the point that an everyday Joe or Jane is questioning motives and details that's a breakthrough in my opinion.

Too often the last handful of years most average americans would completely shy away from calling out bullshit. Now, granted, your friend seems extremely intellectual so it would be easier for him to deduce the potential bullshit on his own, but hopefully it means the other less intellectuals are not far behind figuring these things out as well.

[jsamuel]

48. just read that CNN had a soldier on that said it was a photoshopped pic

they made him look nicer for the cameras

[pacalo]

54. Why do they care to have *this one* "look nicer"?

They didn't do that when the Hussein brothers were killed. And they went out of their way to publish pictures of Hussein in the worst possible circumstances -- ratty, unkempt hair; in his underwear; having his mouth examined, etc.

"Wiping off a lot of the blood and other debris because there was not a need to portray it in any kind of dehumanizing his body" isn't consistent with what we've seen in the past. (Quote from NYTimes by Gen. Caldwell.)

[Laurab]

102. I'm not following you around, I swear

but you seem to post the exact same thing I'm thinking a LOT. They showed Saddam at his absolute worst, and had no qualms about it, and I don't think they've suddenly grown hearts at this late date.

They wanted him to look "nicer" I guess, so people would believe it was him, after all his other "deaths".

[pacalo]

110. Hahaaaa!

I consider that a compliment, Laurab. :toast:

Yes, all of a sudden, they "don't want to 'dehumanize' the body", and, meanwhile, the media gets the cue from the WH that it's celebration time, cancelling out the general's expression of "compassion."

[Gold Metal Flake]

56. Zarqawi is Kaiser Soze.

From The Seattle Times

Documents raise doubt about Iraq terrorist's importance

By Thomas E. Ricks
The Washington Post

"Although al-Zarqawi and other foreign insurgents in Iraq have conducted deadly bomb attacks, they remain "a very small part of the actual numbers," Col. Derek Harvey, who served as a military-intelligence officer in Iraq and then was one of the top officers handling Iraq intelligence issues for the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told an Army meeting at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., last summer.

In a transcript of the meeting, Harvey said, "Our own focus on al-Zarqawi has enlarged his caricature, if you will — made him more important than he really is, in some ways.""

<snip>

"The military's propaganda program largely has been aimed at Iraqis but seems to have spilled over into the U.S. media. One briefing slide about U.S. "strategic communications" in Iraq, prepared for Army Gen. George W. Casey Jr., the top U.S. commander in Iraq, describes the "home audience" as one of six major targets of the American side of the war."

<snip>

"The al-Zarqawi campaign is discussed in several internal military documents. "Villainize al-Zarqawi/leverage xenophobia response," one U.S. military briefing from 2004 stated. The methods listed included "Media operations" and "PSYOP.""


Additional sources:

http://today.reuters.com/news/CrisesArticle.aspx?storyId=L10600399

WaPo, which requires resistration. Use the topmost one from www.bugmenot.com:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/09/AR2006040900890_pf.html

Dan is right. Zarqawi is a myth.

Edit: code.

[britshirehamp]

59. the guy does not have internet, yet he saw the CNN website.

He does not have cable or internet in his apartment

Dan's day: Wake up ---> drive to work ---> work all day ---> drive home ---> crack a beer ---> sleep (or) go to bar ---> repeat.

Enter the Dan diatribe: "I saw the pictures of his face, and I saw that video of the attack on the CNN website.


I thought his day was mapped out and he didn't have internet access.

Cute story. Some inconsistencies. Your mate Dan has not ever seen blast trauma (except on this one particular day, of course).

[WilliamPitt]

64. Post 45

:eyes:

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jigarotta]

79. hmmm, that Is odd...

kinda like collecting emails addresses in case the internet goes down?

[shadowknows69]

65. Dan and I shop at the same tin foil shop

I say the same. If it was Zarkawi they had him on Ice. Osama is being thawed out and made up for his November photograph now.

[SalviaBlue]

66. If Bush (or any republican) said water was wet

I would be one of the millions in the shower making sure.

I DO NOT BELIEVE ANYTHING THEY SAY.

They have lied enough times that you would have to be a fool to automatically beleive them. Their motives are always suspect and they will lie about anything... To them, the end justifies the means.

[CdnObserver]

68. He's dead near elections, alive when it's political capital spending time

I googled Al-Zarqawi killed.

On the first page: In late 2004 (including November)the US claimed he was killed at least twice.

In early 2005 after the election, the US was DENYING reports he had been killed.

These stupid asshole's tricks just don't work in the Internet age. People may forget, but Google can remember it for you. (Wholesale?)

[HereSince1628]

69. But, does anyone believe multiple WH officials didn't claim that

Al Zarqawi is dead? That part was confirmed many times over, within much less than 24 business hours.

Personally,
I can't even establish Al Zarqawi EVER was alive, let alone a leader of Al Qaeda.
I sure can't establish that he was in the house outside Bahgdad when it was bombed.
I sure can't establish the size or type of munition used to blow up the house.

What I can establish, even as a little peon sitting at a computer screen is government sources really did make the claim. And all the hoopla is basically about what the government claimed.

[BrklynLiberal]

74. My tinfoil hat radio waves tell me Zarqawi has been on ice, and they

decided this was a good time to try to raise the poll numbers and bring the body out of the freezer and declare him dead. :shrug: :tinfoilhat:

[HereSince1628]

76. Maybe. Maybe. With respect to evaluating this I think we have to

admit we aren't in a postion to know what is true from our own observations.

We are stuck with what others tell us. Our truth testing in the short term is immediately largely dependent on our willingness to accept what we are told.
The best we can usually do is establish what people say and when they say it and see if that jives with what other people say, and sometimes even that isn't entirely possible.

[Jigarotta]

78. for those who may have missed HamdenRice's excellent thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1385799

Let's get one thing clear up front: There never was a man whose given name was Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who carried out terrorist activities or led terrorist organizations or factions in Iraq. Any person with a passing familiarity with Arab culture and language would immediately recognize that the name, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi cannot be anyone's given name. The words constitute two nicknames, or at best a nom de guerre.

...etc.,

[HereSince1628]

82. But, there is little doubt at this time that multiple WH sources claim

that a person called Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is dead.

The truth of that doesn't depend on Zarqawi ever having been a living person.

[Swamp Rat]

73. BUT BUSH IS A GREAT PRESIDENT AND A GOD-FEARING CHRISTIAN!!!

[Warren Stupidity]

77. As with saddam's spider hole or pvt lynch's rescue

even when the maladministration has a victory of sorts they cannot seem to get their stories straight or tell the truth about the basic facts of the operation.

But as we know, here on DU, those of us who remain skeptical of everything said or done by the bush regime have 'jumped the zarq'.

At least I am in good company.

[Raster]

95. Proud jumper. I have NO FAITH in any information dispensed by bushco*.

Zark, shark. Whatever.

[Bushwick Bill]

80. Physicist, huh?

Please ask him what he thinks of Dr. Jones.
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=964034652002408586
http://www.911blogger.com/2006/02/dr-steven-jones-utah-seminar-video.html

Or, Dr. Wood.
http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/BilliardBalls.html

Or, Jim Hoffman.
http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/towers/slides.html
http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/index.html
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/index.html

;-)

[Rex]

83. Dan's chances of being right are no less than the BFEEs.

They could have killed him 3 times, they did get him 3...er...4 times now so...ya know...betting money says the guy is a DNA stain somewhere under the rubble (the dude they showed was to let the imbeciles at home know 'we got um', probably a body double). OBL is probably a moldy DNA stain somewhere in Tora Bora (or hiding under a rock in Sudan, hello go kill his ass already!)

You should tell Dan about the Atta passport that somehow drifted into an FBI agents hands from the WTC and American 11. That will drive him bonkers.

[me b zola]

84. A minor detail that the BFEE failed to consider...

People get wise to psychopathic liars and, as you stated, wouldn't believe those liars if they claimed water is wet.




Good post, Will. :toast:

[sinkingfeeling]

85. If there were seven others in the house, where are the pictures of their

complete bodies? It doesn't pass the 'smell' test.

[LibertyorDeath]

87. Everyone knows 2 500 lbs bombs

Do only minimal damage to the human body.

Anyone that doubts this should come stand in the vicinity of one.

[applegrove]

88. The lies and secrecy and aggressive attacking of Dem values of this WH

works wonders to divide us all into little balls of fears. As it is meant to do.

Good one Will Pitt!



:patriot:

[MidwestMomma]

91. More and more people aren't buying it anymore

Aside from Bush's hardcore cabal of everlasting gobstoppper supporters, I think the average joe and joette have reached a bullshit saturation point.

I thought it interesting that at I my work, not one person even mentioned the big news story of the day.

Thanks for the story. Stay cool...

[Generator]

97. Indeed once you realize it's almost ALL propaganda in war

You can no longer trust what "they" say. ESPECIALLY the DOD. Jessica Lynch anyone? Pat Tillman? Masscare number 400? Who the hell knows what really happens in war anyway? It's one person's version of whose okay to kill in a one second decision. Or maybe it was planned for months to kill whatever person. Either way WE will never know the truth. And the propaganda is to serve whom-the powers that be-the military and it's masters. The truth isn't even an option.

SO I do tend to feel sorry for the soldiers, because damn, they are up against it. He's dead. He's not dead. He's the enemy. He's working with them, against them, for them, behind them, near them, because of them. I trust nothing this military or this government says. It's all a very bad story, and it changes from day to day.

[marions ghost]

139. that was my impression too

CNN all day tried to make this The Story (followed by bludgeoning updates).

It struck me as surreal, shades of "1984". TVs everywhere blaring what we are supposed to think, but everybody ignoring it. Just more bedtime stories from the Ministry of Truth.

[blm]

99. I agree with Dan - I think Zarq became expendable the moment that video of

him completely unable to shoot an automatic weapon came out.

He didn't LOOK like an insurgent leader and it weakened his carefully crafted persona - but who exactly did that crafting?

[bonemachine]

116. On the other hand

showing him like that, and treating him as unimportant or farical also reduces the PR value of having killed him...

[gulliver]

105. Are you sure this is your friend Dan?

Do you stand behind that?

[Cleita]

106. Well, the smart Dans of the world won't buy it but then there's

the other side of the I.Q. spectrum who do. I'm with Dan. They had Zarqawi on ice to parade out in front of the media at the right time. I think they have Osama on ice too, who will be "found and killed" at the right time.

:tinfoilhat:

[Jim Sagle]

107. Take this poll.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1395137

[Oilwellian]

108. Here's to Dan

:toast: :hi:

[femrap]

109. I'm glad your friend, Dan, is becoming

politicized. Maybe because of his science background, this story, along with the pictures of those 2-500 lb. bombs exploding, culminated into the final straw. From now on, Dan will question everything that comes out of this administration's mouth.

Please ask him to promise to vote as you tell him to vote....after all you're the expert in politics. And when we need help with physics, we'll want him to tell us what to do....OK? He's not going to vote for Lynn Swan, is he? We gotta keep PA blue.

[spuddonna]

112. Hey, I forgot to ask...

Did Dan talk about how he's planning to vote come elections? I'm not sure if he's still in PA, but I was talking to my dad today, and they are psyched since the primaries. All the buzz they were hearing from friends, family, haircutters, etc. was people planning on voting straight line Dem. They're looking forward to seeing Ricky go down hard.

But that's just 'north of the North Side' buzz... just curious! :)

[texpatriot2004]

117. I called it a bullshit story the minute I heard it. Go Dan, I'm with you

:tinfoilhat:

[BeHereNow]

118. Give this article to Dan and watch his head explode! LOL

BBC article on the Rumsfeld approved
"Information Operations Roadmap"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4655196.stm

Excerpt that will set Dan's foil hat ablaze:

"Psyops messages will often be replayed by the news media
for much larger audiences, including the American public," it goes on.

The document's authors acknowledge that American news media
should not unwittingly broadcast military propaganda.
"Specific boundaries should be established," they write.
But they don't seem to explain how. "

Take pictures of Dans hat when he reads the article please...
He looks and sounds like a swell guy, BTW.
BHN

[Grateful for Hope]

119. It's good to hear that people like Dan

are finally questioning what this administration says...even if (and, I emphasize "if") this story is true.

I think the "Sleeping Giant" is slowly awakening.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kingshakabobo]

122. Oh get over it already. Go change your diaper and you will feel better.

[Seabiscuit]

123. Do you have a diaper fetish?

What exactly should I get over?

The 2000 election? The 2004 election? Something important like that?

Or anonymous flames like this one?

Let me guess: you were one of the 38.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[motocicleta]

125. Matcom, I hope that doesn't get deleted

You asked the question, and framed the poster, just the way I want to but I always fear it will get moderated out because I don't understand the nuances of the rules.

At any rate, that's the question, isn't it? Why do these people care? I understand why people like this Dan story, and why people will still give Will the time of day after the Rove indictment story; it's totally reasonable. If I had broken that story, it would be totally unreasonable, but it wasn't me, it was a guy with 37k posts. There is a difference.
But I cannot for the life of me understand why the haters care so much. It makes no sense.

[matcom]

126. a little something about Will Pitt...

many years ago, I got apeshit here. this was well before the war. i don't have a link to the original but in essence, it was "what the fuck are we doing here other than bitching..."

i called for action. something. anything to get the word out. 10 seconds later i got a pm from Pitt. we talked about it and decided that putting the facts down on paper and taking it to the people was the best route.

the following Saturday, Pitt and I and about 10 other DUers were standing in Harvard Square with 200 "flyers" we had made up (at our own expense). i believe it was raining that day. we handed them out to anyone who would take them. we handed them to the cab drivers parked on the street waiting for fares from the patrons of the train station. we engaged people in conversation. it wasn't much but it was better than sitting here. bitching.

we did that another half-dozen times.

during this period, Pitt wrote a book with Scott Ritter. "War On Iraq" turned out to be 1000% true. Literally every word has come to fruition (unfortunately).

in October 2002, as we hit the BW Parkway in D.C., Will Pitt was behind me and DS1 in caravan as we drove down to protest the War (the first time a war had been protested BEFORE it's start). we had on local news and the announcement came that Paul Wellstone's plane went down. i remember EXACTLY where we were on that road when the news broke. i immediately called Pitt on my cell phone and broke the news to him. i will never forget that conversation.

Pitt has been to my house many times. I have been to his. there are other stories regarding myself and Will that I shall not go into here. never will. but, suffice to say that Will Pitt is the brother I never had and while I stayed 100% out of the aforementioned fiasco, i will defend and befriend him until the day I die.

i am a MUCH better person for knowing Will as is EVERYONE here at DU (whether they know it or not). i'll not step into the petty shit much but when I do, someone is going to know about it.

and take heart. say what you need to here. doesn't matter if you have 37k posts or 20. think quality not quantity.

peace.

[motocicleta]

129. That about says it all

peace

[Seabiscuit]

133. Yep. That would certainly explain it. n/t

[wicket]

135. Well said matcom!

:yourock:

[donheld]

138. matcom, I'm jealous

I would love to meet you all.

[Kingshakabobo]

128. They DON'T care about that story. There are a handful of people...

....that, apparently, have an axe to grind with the O.P....and/or they are trolls looking to stir the shit-pot. Not to mention that following a fellow DUer from thread to thread bringing up old topics is against the rules. Some people need to act like little babies with a "case of the raw ass"- As my grandpa used to say.

[lamp_shade]

130. Case of the raw ass

Perhaps they are trolls (these stalkers... this pesky, insignificant little troop of insecure "pitt bulls")... or maybe axe-grinders, but all I can smell is JEALOUSY. I can't quite put my finger on why, but the word "jealous" just keeps screaming at me every time they make a childish remark.

[Kingshakabobo]

131. The funny thing is......

....the real "pit-bulls" have already moved on. It's the little "piss-ant-bulls" that are still beating that dead-horse. The "b-team" trolls/stalkers.

Rather pathetic.

[Name removed]

127. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[txwhitedove]

132. Thanks, Will, for an excellent post capturing the slow wakening..

of America.  I watch CNN news before work each day, so wasn't
one of the co-workers surrounding the TV the morning Zarqawi's
'death' was announce by Bush.  The 'they' people were so happy
for Bush, like it was a feather in his cap, see, he was right.
 But, I've long ago discovered it's because 'they' don't watch
real news or read newspapers.  'They' watch only Repub
approved news and listen to Repub approved radios.  When I
first started this job, my boss actually told me NOT to take
the Houston Chronicle because it's biased, and that she would
give me a radio station to listen to.  She also tells people
how to vote.  That's why I joined DU.   

[Cha]

134. A Buzzflash editorial is with Dan on this..

"Why Not Just Put al-Zarqawi's Head on a Pike?"

Snips~
So it was with the Bush Administration and the man who was killed or maimed by them at least 9 times, al-Zarqawi. No doubt, as far as we can read between the lines of psy-ops propaganda, he was sort of a barbaric "gang leader," but the Bush Administration clearly, for political purposes, used the close-up focus feature on the camera to make him appear to take up the whole frame at times, when he was one leader among a broad group of insurgents.

BuzzFlash believes that al-Zarqawi is, indeed, dead now (as in dead, dead, not Bushevik "reported" dead) -- although whether he was killed in the alleged bombing (his body miraculously surviving intact, when everybody else and everything else was blown to smithereens) or was killed earlier (and his body kept on ice until the right moment for helping Bush in the polls), we will probably -- as with all Soviet-style secrecy in the reign of the Busheviks -- never know.

But we do know that the barbaric golden framed photos of al-Zarqawi's bloated, blood-splotched face -- displayed almost instantly at Pentagon news briefings -- was akin to Bush's "Bring 'em on" statement that put our troops at such great risk. Indeed, Bush's sophomoric bravado a couple of years back resulted in egging on the insurgents and more deaths for our military men and women. And this latest "displaying the enemy's ear" PR initiative is going to backfire in the same way.

Now, we have the Busheviks carrying out the 2006 version of putting a head on a pike, not so much to send a message to Iraq, but rather to improve Bush's poll ratings in the U.S. Rove knows that "the money" shot, which a more civilized and less barbaric administration would not have blown up and framed (the only thing missing was an "R.I.P wreath"), was going to dominate the news for at least 4 news cycles (24 hours).


http://buzzflash.com/analysis/06/06/ana06042.html

[Jigarotta]

136. Dan looks a lot like a younger David Gergen. nt

[CabalPowered]

137. This whole Zarqawi thing reminds me of when we caught Sadaam

Another board I posted on at the time, I came out and said BS.. this doesn't smell right. I didn't discount that it was Sadaam but there was no way in hell that Sadaam was hiding in that small of a rabbit hole. He didn't pay billions to the Germans for underground bunkers only to hide in some kid's play hole. I got flamed, flamed and flamed. It was no more than a year later the truth came out that the British caught him somewhere else and the rabbit hole pic was U.S. propaganda. I'm with Dan and suspect the same is happening here.