Female student barred from her graduation for wearing pants

[jmowreader]

http://www.fayettevillenc.com/article?id=234819

Douglas Byrd High School senior Bobbie Spanbauer was barred from participating in her school’s graduation ceremony Wednesday because she refused to wear a dress.

Spanbauer showed up for the ceremony at the Crown Coliseum wearing the clothing required for boys: black slacks, a white dress shirt, black belt, black tie, black dress shoes and black socks. Two diamond earrings sparkled on her ears.

Girls were required to wear a black or white dress, hose that matched their skin tone and black dress shoes with a closed toe and heels.

Her reason for appearing in the required uniform for males: "I never wear dresses." (She styled her hair and applied makeup before attempting to attend.)

Which, of course, explains why you showed up for graduation in men's clothing.

I can see three points of view to this:

First: It's thoroughly within someone's legal rights not to be forced to wear a dress to anything.

Second: There was another article in the paper about this yesterday. I noted Ms. Spanbauer's comment and asked my friend Ben, who teaches English at Douglas Byrd High School. He's positive half the girls in that school don't own dresses. They wear slacks, jeans, capris, whatever, but no dresses. If I never wore dresses, but I went out and bought all these clothes that I'd wear one time so I could walk across the stage, and then they let Bobbie Spanbauer walk across the stage in pants because she never wears dresses, I would have been majorly pissed.

There is this thing called a dress code. If you're gonna throw it out for one person, you just about have to throw it out for everyone. I guarantee that if they would have allowed it, fully a third of the graduating class would have walked across the stage in kente. There's this place downtown that has great kente stuff.

Third: Dear Bobbie, you pretty much blew your case right out your ass when you walked up to the door wearing the complete Men's Uniform. Yes, women's slacks are professional attire, and if you'd have come to graduation in a woman's blouse, women's slacks and women's dress shoes with hosiery, perhaps they would have allowed you to enter--maybe not to walk across the stage, but you could have at least watched your friends receive their diplomas. But men's shoes with men's socks? A man's shirt with a tie? Were you TRYING to give the administration a finger in the eye?

Yesterday morning I was on Spanbauer's side. When she showed up dressed not in slacks but dressed like a man from the shoulders down, I switched to the administration's. There is such a thing as decorum here.

[MSgt213]

1. I'm so glad all our problems with education systems in this country have

been solved so the people who run our schools have time to deal with self created bullshit issues like this. Aren't you?

[yngliberal]

2. Exactly!

A school in my area tried doing the same shit to a student but when the ACLU stepped in, they backed off.

[MSgt213]

4. Sometimes I just want to scream at the stupid bullshit we have to put up

with from people who think they are in charge of some type of kingdom where they get to make all sort of imperial decisions and then with a straight face call themselves Americans.

[jmowreader]

11. The ACLU is quoted in that story

They're thinking about filing a lawsuit.

On the flipside, if the school would have let the girl in dressed like a boy, I can only imagine the lawsuits that would have erupted:

* One kid would have sued because her church doesn't allow black or white dresses to be worn outside a church setting.
* A bunch of kids would have sued over the very obvious double standard here: the girl in question doesn't wear dresses just because she doesn't like dresses, but everyone else was required to wear one.
* I already talked about the kente issue--I would imagine that not being allowed to wear clothing expressing pride in your heritage at such a meaningful event is actionable. (And I've got this great tie that's got all sorts of European flags on it. I'm a European-American, I should be allowed to wear that, right?)

I'm still where I was: if I was principal and she arrived in women's slacks and a blouse, she would have been allowed in if only to sit in the audience--but dressed as a man like she was, she wouldn't have been.

[kiahzero]

15. You're still wrong

This is a really simple case, and the fact that the administration didn't know it just demonstrates that they obviously aren't familiar enough with Title IX.

1) Name the church.
2) There's no double standard, because the gender specific attributes of the dress code are illegal. They could all wear pants if they wanted. The boys could wear dresses if they wanted.
3) Free speech is legitimately limited by time, place, and manner restrictions, which invalidates this example.

[proud2BlibKansan]

219. Title IX is about equal funding

Does it mention dress codes? I doubt it.

[LostinVA]

242. Title IX covers this -- any discrimination by schools

Including sexual discrimination and harassment. It even covers college students harassing professors and staff members. We had a university give us a THREE hour presentation on this for liability reasons.

[proud2BlibKansan]

248. And do you think a dress code for graduation is discrimination?

They are telling BOTH sexes what to wear, not just the girls or just the boys.

[LostinVA]

255. Yes, it is according to Title IX

You cannot require gender-specific requirements for either sex. You can have a dress code, sure, but it CANNOT be gender specif. That breaks Title IX. They can say no open-toed shoes or sandals, no shorts, no jeans, nothing tye-died, no tennis shoes. All okay. But, you can't say all girls have to wear female-specif clothing and that's it. THat is illegal. This overstepped what the law allows in a PUBLIC academic institution.

[proud2BlibKansan]

256. So requiring the boys to wear slacks is also a violation?

I know - I am not an attorney. But I think requiring the boys to wear slacks makes this NOT a violation.

[pnwmom]

263. I understand that when boys have wanted to wear kilts, they've been

allowed to, eventually. There was even a case in Texas.

[One_Life_To_Give]

271. Seems to be fought every year

Seems I read stories about Prom time. That someplace another kid has been discriminated against for failure to wear pants.

[kiahzero]

291. I'm not an attorney either (yet)

But you're incorrect; just because both sexes are forced into a dress code doesn't make it legitimate for one sex to be allowed to wear something and another sex not to, unless the distinction is grounded in some actual relevant difference between the sexes. For instance, you might be able to argue that a skirt that would be appropriate on a woman would be inappropriate on a man, because it covers the genitals of the woman but not the man. With pants, however, there is no such argument to be found.

[LostinVA]

345. Correct -- that si what our school attorney said n/t

[LostinVA]

339. It is breaking the law because they are different dress codes for male an

and females. That is ILLEGAL. As I said, you can ban jeans, sandals, etc., but you cannot have dress codes which are gender-specific in a public school. You need to argue with the government, who's doing everything they can to get rid of Title IX anyway. This is the law. {Period. It's different at a private school that receives zero public funding.

[Ms. Toad]

34. She dressed in one of the two designated options

the one that was most comfortable for her. The article won't open for me, but nothing you quoted indicated the garments she wore were men's as opposed to the women's version of the items designated to be worn by the males. (Even ties are occasionally worn by women.)

Although I'm not a fan of dress codes, if I were set on enforcing a dress code I'd have had a lot more difficulty if she had chosen to wear brightly colored items, or jeans, or something that did not match either of the designated options.

[Maru Kitteh]

73. boys don't cry

So your position is that her crime is dressing "like a man"? Yikes. Sounds like your hangup.

:yoiks:

[pnwmom]

95. Living in the NW, I'm thankful there's no such thing as "decorum" HERE.

And nobody would tell ANYBODY they would have to wear heels!

(Our only debate is when we need to stop wearing socks with our Birkenstocks. Can we wait till July or do we have to take them off in June?)

[Jack from Charlotte]

195. Count me as being against girls wearing any pants. (nt)

*

[pnwmom]

207. You devil you.

:evilgrin:

[AnOhioan]

3. Easy call.............

School....way out of line


Student...more power to her

[kiahzero]

5. Violation of Title IX, plain and simple

The school district has acted extremely negligently, because they've opened themselves up to a huge lawsuit. Discrimination against a women for failing to uphold gender norms is considered to be discrimination on the basis of sex, and therefore a violation of Title IX. The fact that she wore something considered to be acceptable for men to wear strengthens her case, not the other way around.

If you're looking for a citation, start with Price Waterhouse v. Hopkins 490 U.S. 228 (1989).

[jmowreader]

37. Is there some doctrine of "assent through silence" in the law?

They held meetings to plan graduation and discussed the dress code. At some point while this was going on, she could have raised her hand and explained that she didn't want to/never does/feels uncomfortable/feels like her psyche is being damaged when she is forced to...wear a dress, and therefore would be wearing pants to graduation. The fact that she didn't bring it up at that time implies that she assented to the dress code by her silence.

The student explained that she figured the administration would "know" she wasn't going to wear a dress because she never wore one to school. Following this train of thought, if Julie Smith wears capris and a polo shirt to school every day, should we then expect Julie to come to graduation dressed similarly?

As far as the "failing to uphold gender norms" charge...the student arrived at the graduation site wearing men's clothes, makeup, women's jewelry and a woman's hairstyle. I think this, more than anything, is gonna kill her chances of winning a lawsuit. Does she have something against wearing dresses? We know that already, and that's okay.

If she would have arrived at the site wearing a blouse, women's slacks, flats and was groomed as she was, she could have told the principal that her tortured soul wouldn't allow her to wear a dress...then, when the student was denied admittance to graduation, she would have had grounds for a big-time suit that's winnable by a middlin' law student. In men's clothing and with a clean face, she could have claimed a low-level gender dysphoria that cripples her when she's forced to dress as a woman.

But it is going to take the best Title IX guy the ACLU has to prove that someone dressed as a man but made up as a woman isn't there to try to stir up some shit. That's the defense the administration is going to use.

[conflictgirl]

38. From your posts it appears that you agree with the school

Are you agreeing with the school's right to have and enforce such a dress code, or just disagreeing with her chosen form of protest?

[jmowreader]

54. The first one

I don't have a problem with this dress code at all. It's not outrageous. She had all year to mention to the administration that she doesn't wear dresses, and the administration in this school district aren't pricks--they will work with you if you give them a chance.

And I've said this next point so many times my fingers are hoarse: They make women's black pants. They make women's white blouses. Shit, they make black capris--come in wearing black capris, a white blouse, hose, flats and your graduation gown and NO ONE is gonna know you don't have a dress on. Tell 'em you can't walk in heels. Half the women in America who own heels can't walk in them. Completely believable.

The men's clothing and women's grooming she arrived in tends to make one think she was trying to cause a disturbance.

[kiahzero]

56. Ah, now it makes sense.

You don't have a problem with illegal discrimination on the basis of sex.

[conflictgirl]

62. I don't understand

It sounds to me like she *did* wear the female equivalent of the male dress code - except perhaps for the tie, though ties are becoming more popular among lesbians and even some non-lesbian females with certain fashion sense. How do you know that her pants were men's black pants, anyway?

Also, I don't know how things were when you graduated, but when I graduated from high school 14 years ago, we weren't told about the dress code for graduation until a couple days beforehand. The policies may have been there the whole year, but if we weren't told about them then we wouldn't have had time to appeal the case.

Honestly, I don't know as though she was trying to cause a disturbance. I'm leaning toward it being a form of protest, and I completely support her in that. I do happen to have a white blouse, black pants, black belt, and black socks and shoes in my wardrobe right now - and I do NOT have a white or black dress, flesh-colored hose or heels. There's no way I would go out and buy an entirely new outfit to wear *under* a graduation gown.

Unless she was parading around, very deliberately flaunting what she was wearing, I don't understand how it would've caused a disturbance anyway.

[jmowreader]

301. The article specifically said she had a tie on

Also a white dress shirt, black dress pants, black dress socks and a black belt.

I used simple deduction to arrive at the fact that she had men's clothes on: if you were going to dress in the exact men's wardrobe, you probably wouldn't go to a women's clothing store to buy the stuff. You'd hit Wal-Mart's "men's church clothes" department and get what you needed.

Today's newspaper talked about the reader responses to this story. Two stood out: one grad from Eastover pointed out that she never wears dresses either, but wore one to graduation; the other was a Douglas Byrd grad who was so happy that the only graduate whose picture was on the front page of the newspaper was Bobbie Spanbauer.

For what it's worth, this school publicizes the graduation dress code right up front. They have lots of senior class meetings and everyone's told what the code is.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

303. Your simple deduction is a simple assumption.

Anyway, the dress code is still wrong and illegal.

[kiahzero]

305. Who said she had to go buy the stuff?

I know my girlfriend could wear that outfit without needing to buy a single thing (though she would have to borrow my black tie, but that's it).

All of this ignores the fact that your argument is completely ridiculous in the first place. None of these facts matter:

* Other people are upset she stood up for herself - Too bad for them.
* Other people caved to the pressure before - When has that ever been an acceptable rationale for doing something illegal?
* She followed the dress code too specifically - There's really not even words to describe how silly this objection is.
* She was trying to make a fuss - Good for her; raising a commotion over illegal or unconstitutional discrimination is a time-honored liberal practice.

[pnwmom]

91. Please read the article again. It doesn't say she was wearing men's

clothing. You're reading way too much between the lines. Besides that, she was wearing her cap and gown over the whole thing. She looked like a lovely young girl in a cap and gown with a couple of inches of black slacks at the ankles. BIG DEAL!!!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

218. Yes, let's read it again, shall we?

Spanbauer showed up for the ceremony at the Crown Coliseum wearing the clothing required for boys: black slacks, a white dress shirt, black belt, black tie, black dress shoes and black socks. Two diamond earrings sparkled on her ears.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

222. Aside from the tie, which women still wear...

it could be all "women's" clothing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

225. Not at her graduation

The other girls didn't wear ties, the boys did.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

228. From the picture, it looks like wearing a tie would be closer to her

gender presentation than a dress would. I'm not saying she's transgendered, but there's a lot of butch lesbians that would be pretty traumatized by having to wear a dress.

[proud2BlibKansan]

243. I wondered about that too

But is that the issue? Is she transgendered? That changes the story in my mind.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

258. She might not be trans, just butch.

In either case, wearing a dress would be pretty traumatic.

[Scout]

268. yeah, cuz no REAL woman wouldn't want to wear a dress and get all

gussied up for the boys, would she?

I can't believe the people that are making assumptions about her sexuality one way or the other based on her not liking to wear dresses.

Stereotype much?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

290. I don't believe I'm stereotyping.

"yeah, cuz no REAL woman wouldn't want to wear a dress and get all gussied up for the boys, would she?"

Actually, I'm an adrogynous lesbian and I have dated transgendered people. So I'm pretty sure I'm not making a comment about whether she's a "REAL woman" or not. I'm just saying that if she was a butch lesbian, then she probably wouldn't feel comfortable in a dress and heels. Okay?

[LostinVA]

337. 's okay, haruka

I was accused of stereotyping, too. Even though I'm a lesbian and have had female friends who dress and "appear" just like this girl, who literally would have been humiliated and ashamed to be made to dress in STEREOTYPICAL girl clothes.

WE disgusting sterotyping lesbos can stick together on this, okay?

[pnwmom]

319. I'm having the same reaction, Scout. She didn't look like

anything to me except another girl in a graduation robe.

[readmoreoften]

332. She looks like a butch to me.

I'm a femme who only dates butches and she holds herself like a butch.

[LostinVA]

338. Thank you n/t

[Scout]

344. I can't believe the people on here who are claiming that you can tell

by looking at someone else that they are gay. I think it's a stupid assumption to make that because a young woman doesn't care to wear dresses that she is a lesbian.

If it were a heterosexual stereotyping like that, they'd get jumped on for gay bashing.

:eyes:

Oh well, my ignore list grows.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

348. Here's a quote from her mother...

http://www.fayettevillenc.com/article?id=234756
“Just because my daughter wants to dress and look and act like a boy, she should not be discriminated against.”

To me that seems like there's a definite gender identity (whether she's a lesbian or not) component behind the story. And I don't think I'm being a homophobe or anything for percieving it that way.

[LostinVA]

350. You're not a homophobe

Neither was I for saying the same thing.

Since I'm a lesbian who is totally at ease in my own skin, and respectful of everyone else and their skin (so to speak), I'm offended by having it implied I'm a 'phobe.

I even like the French. Well, except for the whole Rwanda thing...

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

352. I like the French too.

Apparently, the Ninja Turtles are popular in France. I found this out from a group of cool French guys that were staying at the same hostel as me in Dublin.

[LostinVA]

353. That is so funny

They haven't even been on TV in forever.

I so don't get the whole Jerry Lewis thing, though...

[spooky3]

280. I don't understand your point. She's in a Catch-22.

Except for the tie, every single item is in the closet of many professional women. I've worn that outfit to work many times. That school should have permitted the same type of attire (sans tie, or substituting a scarf) for girls because it is completely acceptable "dressup" attire. NOTHING in the article said that any of the specific items were boys' clothes--she probably wore girls'/womens' black socks and nice shoes, which is what I wear with my pantsuits. So there is NOTHING inappropriate in her outfit.

Further, if she had NOT worn the tie, someone would say that she did not adhere to EITHER of the two dress codes, and therefore she should be denied entrance. I would bet a hundred bucks that she asked a lawyer or someone who thinks like one about this beforehand, and that is the reason why she included the tie.

[pnwmom]

316. Do you think it would be OK to require faculty women to wear dresses

to attend graduation? To teach classes?

[pnwmom]

265. It doesn't say "boys' slacks." "Slacks" isn't a gender-based term.

They sell them for both boys and girls.

[femrap]

187. Whatca gonna do when the administration says to

wear your burqa?

Good grief.....here we go backward in time. Is this 1951 or what? Shit, I'm surprised this administration didn't require her to wear a fucking apron.

[kiahzero]

41. No.

The dress code itself is illegal. The fact that they kept someone out of graduation for it just means that someone has standing to sue about it. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter if her goal was to "stir up some shit." In fact, that's how many test cases get started, is someone purposefully breaking the law for the specific reason of getting it overturned.

The fact that she wore makeup is inconsequential, because there was no policy about men not being allowed to wear makeup. Even if there was, discriminating based on even a small measure of gender nonconformity is still illegal.

You're missing a key point here... the school administration, in drafting the dress code, broke the law.

[pnwmom]

47. You forgot to mention that she was wearing a graduation gown over the

whole thing. You also said that she was wearing men's clothes. That's not what the article said. It merely reported that she was wearing black slacks and a black dress shirt. You are the one assuming that they were boys' slacks and a boys' shirt. As if that matters anyway.

This whole thing was NUTS. They wouldn't even let her attend without her robes and sit in the back to watch her friends graduate. This is obviously a case of a principal on a power trip.

[JerseygirlCT]

176. Explain what exactly is "men's clothing" here?

There's precious little difference between pants. Pants are pants. If men's pants fit better, then men's pants it is.

You're not making any sense here.

[Book Lover]

6. Isn't everyone under a robe anyway?

Who cares what is on underneath a robe? Oh, wait, that's right - control freaks like the ones who set up this sexist rule.

[pnwmom]

48. She's wearing a robe in the picture. This is unbelievably stupid.

They wouldn't even let her sit in the audience (robe-less) and watch her friends graduate.

[Quantess]

102. LOL fine, you don't want me in pants, I'll take them off!

maybe if she had taken her pants off and just wore underwear under the robe, she would be showing ankles like the other girls, then she could have attended.

[pnwmom]

105. You forget. She wasn't wearing the all important womanly HEELS!

[porphyrian]

7. Fuck graduation ceremonies.

They aren't required for graduation, they're just a boring parade for the few family members, usually mothers, who actually care about it. If she hadn't gone at all, she would still have graduated. Given that, she staged a protest, which was successful in that so many people who wouldn't otherwise give a shit about it are talking about her. Good for her. Fuck 'em.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. My opinion...

Give the girl a scholarship, fire the administration. They ain't fit to ask me if I want fries with that.

[laureloak]

70. She knew the rules all along but chose to oppose them in

the eleventh hour?

Sorry, she gets no support from me.

[kiahzero]

72. Grats on supporting violating Title IX. (n/t)

[pnwmom]

89. Are all rules meant to be followed no matter how dumb?

Not to mention sexist?

[proud2BlibKansan]

140. uh yeah

Or you speak up and try to change the rules. Deliberately breaking them is not really the best choice.

[pnwmom]

166. So when Bush makes a rule -- such as, if you have PEACE bumper

sticker on your car, then you aren't allowed to come into a public building and hear him speak -- then you think that rule should be followed?

[proud2BlibKansan]

220. Another strawman!!

Comparing a dress code for a high school graduation to bush's intimidation tactics goes beyond silly.

[pnwmom]

267. It's all about control. That's the same in both cases.

[MadHound]

171. Good thing Ghandi, King and many others didn't take that advice

IE "Deliberately breaking them is not really the best choice" If they hadn't deliberately broken the rules, we would be in a much worse situation today.

Besides, WTF is the big deal anyway, a robe is thrown over the top of everything anyway and then nobody knows or notices what you're wearing anyway. Hell, my when my Mom graduated from HS in the late forties, they were able to wear shorts and a blouse under the robes, with flats on the feet.

Sounds to me like they put somebody in charge of graduation who is waaaaay to anal for their own good.

[proud2BlibKansan]

221. Ghandi and King violated the dress codes for their high school

graduations? Wow, learn something new every day here on DU.

[MadHound]

223. Ooo, way to sidestep a rebuttal

Care to try it head on, or do you just wish to add to the snark factor?

[proud2BlibKansan]

226. I just think this is a silly thing to fight

and to compare it to what Ghandi and Dr. King did is stretching it more than a bit.

What is this girl going to do when she has a job with a required dress code? If she violates it, she will lose her job. Schools have a responsibility to prepare kids for life in the real world. And whether we like it or not, dress codes are a part of the real world. There is also a way to protest dress codes. Asking that they be changed would be a better way to start that battle than purposely violating them.

[Scout]

235. no company I've ever worked at, dress code or not....

REQUIRED only skirts or dresses on women.

Any company that would fire you for violating the dress code once isn't worth working for.

[proud2BlibKansan]

246. It is still common in education.

We were required to wear dresses when I first started teaching. And we can't wear denim or open toed shoes now. And some businesses, like restaurants, require dresses on female waitresses. I also know a woman who makes minimum wage as a maid at a hotel and she has to wear a dress that is her uniform.

If an employee is making minimum wage working in customer service I doubt she would quit over a dress code. I know I wouldn't. Feeding my family would be more important than what I was required to wear to work.

[Scout]

266. who said quit?

I didn't say they'd quit. I said if a company fired them for one dress code violation that would be ridiculous.

I had to wear dresses to school as a child, until 5th grade. So what? That was years ago, and we are (supposedly) not so archaic in our views anymore.

Can the men where you work wear denim or open toed shoes now? If not, then there is no discrimination ... the dress code is the same for men and women.

There is absolutely NO REASON in the world that justifies a woman being required to wear a dress, for anything. I'm pretty sure the hotel maids would rather wear pants while doing their jobs. It's just some idiot's got a bug up their ass about women must wear dresses. My sister was a hotel maid too, and she hated the stupid fucking uniform dress. She got a better job as soon as she could. Yes, it has a dress code, but it does not MANDATE DRESSES for women.

I have a dress code where I work too, and it does NOT MANDATE that I wear a dress or skirt.

You can dress up an asshole and they're still just a dressed-up asshole. Clothes do not make the man, or in this case, the woman.

[pnwmom]

269. It sounds like you really think that teaching conformity should be

one of the mainstays of a public school education.

[conflictgirl]

285. I know lots of teachers, and don't know any required to wear dresses

I don't think that's still common anymore in education at all.

A dress code such as no open-toed shoes or no denim is not a problem. It's not about whether or not companies or schools should be allowed to have dress codes! It's about requiring an entirely different standard for women.

Also, I've been a waitress and a maid at different points throughout my adult years - I was required to wear uniforms for both jobs, but neither required me to wear a dress.

[spooky3]

288. Workplace rules and rules for students attending public schools are not

the same. They are governed by different laws, and public schools may not limit Constitutionally granted free speech rights as much as a private employer can. Students often do not have the choice of attending School X or School Y; private sector employees can quit if they don't like a dress code.

[MadHound]

245. I think it's a silly think to kick a kid out of their own graduation for

I mean really now, a robe gets thrown over whatever you wear, so does it really matter what you wear?

And quite frankly, I find the school's dress code a bit over the top and sexist. Frankly I've known many women, in high school, who couldn't wear high heels. And there are women who, having never worn heels, shouldn't make their graduation the first time experience.

And hey, every little rebel has got to get their start somewhere. High school is training for lots of things, not just the work a day world. And no job that I've ever been in has ever gone into as specific a dress code as this HS, and certainly never mandated that heels be worn. They know they'd get their ass laughed out the door.

[proud2BlibKansan]

253. You've never been a waitress I guess

I agree with everything else you are saying here. My point is that this girl should have tried beforehand to get this changed. Maybe she did but I don't see that being mentioned.

I also protested a dress code in high school. But we did it by circulating petitions, meeting with the administration and getting parents to support our cause. We did not purposely violate the dress code. We worked to change it. And we did.

I am just saying there is a way to fight a battle and I disagree with this girl's methods. I also think a dress code for a graduation that lasts what - 2 or 3 hours - is a petty thing to complain about. If this school required dresses and heels every day then I would be 100% on this girl's side.

[pnwmom]

270. How do you know when they told the students about the dress code?

It might have been during the rehearsal. The article wasn't clear about that, was it?

[kiahzero]

292. Somebody needs to read up on civil rights cases

A fair number of them were brought by someone going out of their way to violate the law ("deliberately breaking them").

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

132. Laureloak, part of earning a high school diploma...

...and part of growing up in general is learning that sometimes it's important to stand up to bullies by breaking the rules.

[pnwmom]

167. And when grownups do it, we call it civil disobedience.

[laureloak]

342. Or you might even be adult enough to discuss issues

rather than defying them. She did not attempt to solve this problem outside of the public eye and I cannot respect that.

Or you might find that CONFORMING is necessary at times.

Or you might find that teachers and school administrators ARE NOT BULLIES.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

343. Apparently, she tried to do that...

http://www.fayettevillenc.com/article?id=234756

The school responded by sticking to their ILLEGAL dress code. By the way, it is not necessary to CONFORM to an illegal dress code, especially if it may go against your gender presentation, at any time.

In this case, perhaps not the teachers, but the administrators certainly WERE BULLIES. There were much better ways for the administration to handle it, but they chose to go the sexist route for the sake of tradition.

[laureloak]

346. She tried AT THE LAST MINUTE.

She had all year to deal with the matter but instead she chose to run to the papers at the last minute in an effort to embarrass the school and community just to get her way.

Our schools need the support of parents and community and it's attitudes like hers and others on this board that hinder their success. How incohesive and crazy would this world be if we all "stood up" for our "right" not to conform every time things didn't go our way?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

347. It's an ILLEGAL dress code.

Illegal means unlawful. The dress code is against the law. The school is in the wrong. Even if you disagree with the way the girl handled it, the school is still wrong and is enforcing an unlawful school policy. Last time I checked, a school rule does not supercede Federal Law (Title IX).

"How incohesive and crazy would this world be if we all "stood up" for our "right" not to conform every time things didn't go our way?"
Hmm...let's see. A lot of good things have come out of standing up for our rights. Women's sufferage...civil rights movement...the current struggle for gay rights. Yes, these things were and are all far greater concerns, but this is still discrimination. It's just discrimination in one HS in Freeperville, USA. What's your opinion of civil disobedience? You know, breaking a law to further a cause?

From the article: “Just because my daughter wants to dress and look and act like a boy, she should not be discriminated against.”
From the sounds of this, the girl is probably a butch lesbian or potentially transgendered, wearinga dress would have been really traumatic. Also, there's probably a good chance that she wouldn't have felt comfortable voicing her opinion in a class meeting, because that would have been putting her in danger. I seriously doubt this girl went to the newspapers first. I'm sure she went to the principal first, he said no way and then we went to the ACLU (since the law is illegal and discriminatory). I doubt this principal would have allowed her to wear pants, if she had gone to him earlier. If she went three months early or a few days before the graduation, does it really make a difference? How much time does it say, "okay, you can wear pants?" About as long as, "no you can't wear pants because you're a girl. Too late."

[laureloak]

349. Who cares? That's silly.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

351. Wow, quite a argument there.

:eyes:

[laureloak]

355. Sometimes common sense trumps the letter of the law. n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

357. Yes, but this is not one of those cases.

I would be really interested in hearing a well-thought out response to my post to you. Or do you not have one? Also, are you saying that as a woman you're against equality of the sexes, because that's what Title IX ensures in an educational setting? I guess, equality goes against "common sense" for you.

[laureloak]

363. Im saying it as a parent ... and yes, a woman.

As a parent:
There was a follow up article in the same paper several days later. The school that this student attended was violent and failing but that all turned around after the present principal took over. She set some very strict rules, including dress codes, and enforces them. She required the dress for commencement in an effort to bring formality into the ceremony. Most parents and students appreciate it because it is a rare opportunity to dress up.

This was one student out of 20 that weren't allowed to walk across the stage because of dress code violations, but she was the only one that RAN to the media to bitch about the school. The principal said that while she could not have granted an exception for one student, she would have brought the issue up with a faculty/student committee to review possible dress code changes, however, she was not approached until just before the ceremony.


As a woman:
I don't see that a dress code requiring me to wear a dress violates my rights in any way, shape or form. It simply says that women/girls are more "formal" when they wear dresses, and I agree.


As for equality:
I'm too old to believe in true "equality" between men and women because I've come to realize that there's really no such thing. How can we be "equal" in all aspects when we're so different? As wives and mothers we've come a long way because we're teaching our husbands and sons how to treat us. And we're doing it while loving them -not attacking them or taking away THEIR rights, like affirmative action does.

[kiahzero]

364. First of all, your "common sense trumps law" bit is ridiculous

That's the kind of thinking that gets you George Wallace and Roy Moore.

This was one student out of 20 that weren't allowed to walk across the stage because of dress code violations, but she was the only one that RAN to the media to bitch about the school. The principal said that while she could not have granted an exception for one student, she would have brought the issue up with a faculty/student committee to review possible dress code changes, however, she was not approached until just before the ceremony.

That's funny, because the school was faxed a letter from the ACLU on Tuesday, informing them that their policy was in violation of federal law, and were told that the school department didn't care, and that the dress code wasn't changing.

I'm too old to believe in true "equality" between men and women because I've come to realize that there's really no such thing. How can we be "equal" in all aspects when we're so different? As wives and mothers we've come a long way because we're teaching our husbands and sons how to treat us. And we're doing it while loving them -not attacking them or taking away THEIR rights, like affirmative action does.

Yes... clearly striving for equal opportunity is taking away the rights from people who are currently advantaged. :eyes:

I don't see that a dress code requiring me to wear a dress violates my rights in any way, shape or form. It simply says that women/girls are more "formal" when they wear dresses, and I agree.

It also dictates gender roles, an action which is barred by Title IX.

[laureloak]

366. Whatever already. This is going waayyyy overboard.

There are battles worthy of war... this isn't one of them.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

368. Two points.

As a woman: I don't see that a dress code requiring me to wear a dress violates my rights in any way, shape or form. It simply says that women/girls are more "formal" when they wear dresses, and I agree.

I know butch women who disagree very strongly with that statement. Wearing a dress can be emotionally difficult for them. Do you not consider it a violation of their rights to be forced to wear a dress? A woman can also be formal when not wearing a dress. School violence has nothing to do with a sexist illegal dress code. I severely doubt there would have been mass chaos and violence had she adopted a formal dress code for the graduation ceremony that was not ILLEGAL.

As for equality: I'm too old to believe in true "equality" between men and women because I've come to realize that there's really no such thing. How can we be "equal" in all aspects when we're so different? As wives and mothers we've come a long way because we're teaching our husbands and sons how to treat us. And we're doing it while loving them -not attacking them or taking away THEIR rights, like affirmative action does.

I'm talking about equal rights, not "equal in all aspects." Yes, we're different, all humans are different. Not all women are the same and neither are all men. Not all women are wives and mothers, and that's a very 1950s Stepford wife of defining womanhood. I will never be a man's wife nor will I probably ever have children. If those are the defining accomplishments of a woman's life, then does that make me less of a woman? If so, then I know plenty of uppity DU women that will strongly disagree with you. Also, I never once suggested taking away men's rights. I simply said that women and men deserved equal rights, and that this dress code was already violating a federal law, which school rules do not supercede.

Overall, your posts sound more like they belong at that Kool-aid drinking "other" messageboard than at DU.

[proud2BlibKansan]

139. Me neither - no sympathy

She just wanted attention. Or she would have spoken up weeks ahead of time and tried to work this out.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

154. She might not have had weeks.

In my HS (granted, it was run by a burnt out, detached moran), they didn't even tell us the dress code until the first rehearsal, two days before graduation. My sister is graduating this year and they still haven't been told the dress code.

We were told that girls had to wear dresses (which they usually did for ceremonies) but it was not enforced. A lot of girls didn't wear dresses. One guy wore a kilt.

Regardless, the dress code is illegal under Title IX.

[proud2BlibKansan]

212. I am not a lawyer but I disagree about Title IX

That deals with FUNDING for women's programs.

As for the dress code, I wonder if it is outlined in the code of conduct. It is in our school district.

[LostinVA]

244. See post #242

[pnwmom]

169. That might have gotten her a lot more attention, if that's what

she really was after. She could have turned it into some sort of crusade, if attention was her aim.

[proud2BlibKansan]

213. Well I would call dressing like a man

a surefire way to get attention.

[LostinVA]

249. Proud2blib -- I greatly respect you and your posts

And, I can never, ever say enough good things about your profession. But your post thread actually upsets me quite a bit, and I'm sure it would also upset butch lesbians and transgendered men and women on DU. Via her photo, and her very adamant declaration against women-specific clothing, I would say this young woman is not trying to get attention. She's trying to live her life and be comfortable in her own skin. She lives in a horribly conservative, often Freeper town, and y sister went to that high school about 15 years ago. Stereotypical; gay kids were tormented on a daily basis there. The responses of other students leads me to believe that the young woman is known to dress in "men's" clothing... she even stated as much in one article I read. The support her mom is giving her is great, btw. That's probably why she had the courage to do this -- she knew she wouldn't get beat up at school the next day. I bet it WAS a screw you: to narrow-minded Administration and to certain members of the student body.

Can't you understand she wasn't dressing "as a man"? She was in most probability dressing as HERSELF.

(FYI: I am not butch... but that makes no difference. I stand by all my GLBT brothers and sisters, especially the youngsters.)

[pnwmom]

317. I saw her picture and she looked like a kid in a graduation gown.

Period.

[femrap]

202. Why don't you go get yourself a pair of

high heels and walk around in them for awhile? WTF? Very sexist attitude I am smelling here. Or a very anal one.

Either way....the robe covered it all. If she wasn't showing her toes, which I guess is a totally huge turn-on to men, what rule was she breaking? Does this school administrator have some sort of foot fetish?

What I'm seeing here....putting women in their 'place.' If you don't act the way 'we' want our women folk to act, you will be SHUNNED. And she was. She was put right in her place.....bad girl. Others accuse her of bringing attention to herself....again, bad girl. Good girls are quiet, agreeable, do what they're told, and hopefully fade into invisibility only to reemerge carrying a beer and plate of nachos to serve the fat ass couch potato.

Rules shmules....she wants to wear slacks and flats.....bigfuckingdeal.

You make your daughter wear pink all the time? And an apron? And make-up. You know something....no matter what a woman wears, it's wrong. She gets all dolled up in a dress, heels, make-up and she's a slut. And if she gets raped dressed as such, she asked for it. If she dresses for comfort in slacks and flats, she's ugly, a ball-buster, a non-conformist....a big fat RULE BREAKER....OMG....call the fashion police....she's a 'Fashion Don't.'

I wish men would worry about the way they looked....some of them must not have mirrors.....and leave women to dressing themselves as they see fit.

[proud2BlibKansan]

215. Did the dress code say the girls had to wear heels?

[Scout]

234. yes. didn't you read the article before posting?

Girls were required to wear a black or white dress, hose that matched their skin tone and black dress shoes with a closed toe and heels.

edit to add quote from article

[proud2BlibKansan]

238. Thanks I am sorry I forgot that part

I still say she should have gone through the channels BEFORE graduation. That would have been the smarter way to express her disagreement.

[pnwmom]

272. And suppose she went through channels AND they said no.

How would she have been better off? She knows her school better than we do. Maybe she thought she had a better chance this way.

[laureloak]

340. She went through channels and worked it out ahead of time.

But no, that would be an ADULT approach to problem solving.

[LostinVA]

250. Yes -- I have a bad knee, and couldn't wear heels even if I wanted to

Which I never would. They are not healthy.... literally. This just makes the sexist, old-fashioned attitude worse.

[femrap]

196. That's a good little sheep......

baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Is your mantra, 'mustfollowrulesmustfollowrulesmustfollowrules?' For Goddess' sake, women in Iraq are being forced to quit their jobs, not leave their homes w/o a male relative as an escort, and wear a black robe that covers them from head to toe. Are you aware of that? I see a parallel here. No wonder our kids are unequipped to handle adult life....they have been educated by a bunch of idiots who spend their time worried about how to keep women in dresses and high heels.

And a DUer is standing proudly beside this school's administration. I don't get it. Why should you care if she wears slacks? And why should she have to go out and spend money on a dress she will never wear again. Certainly we have better things to worry about. I hope the ACLU fries their asses. Pathetic, small-minded, ineffective, insecure, assholes who are afraid of self-assured women. BOO!

Our culture is pathetic. We're going backward so fast, it's like a time warp deja vu machine has taken over.

She should have worn heels, sprained her ankle then sued the asshole administration.

[proud2BlibKansan]

216. My beef is not with what she wore so much as with the fact that she

chose to break a rule. And the way she chose to do it.

[pnwmom]

273. I'm not following you. What was the way she chose to do it?

[laureloak]

341. A scholarship FOR WHAT? Is she a worthy student? n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

9. That's my kind of School! NO PANTS!

I mean, unless everyone was supposed to wear something else, instead.

[Warpy]

10. Odd reaction to it

since she attempted to comply with the dress code and the hairstyle and makeup destroyed any pretense that she'd come in drag.

Why the hell female students are forced to wear high heeled shoes and dresses is completely beyond me.

Any male who doesn't think this is a big deal should try functioning in them, especially those damned shoes. Just try it.

If slacks were part of the dress code for female students in class, then slacks should have been allowed at graduation.

This whole thing is beyond silly. Stupid men are so hung up over what women wear here just like they are in Islamic countries. Hey guys! It's NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS!

[jmowreader]

19. She could have MENTIONED this to someone beforehand

I think I pointed this out but maybe not: in yesterday's paper, the principal (a woman) said that the dress code for graduation (this is the second time they used it) was discussed at senior class meetings held to plan out graduation. She also said that if it had been brought up, it could have been addressed. I've met this principal when she bought stuff from me. She at least seems like a decent person.

The student in question says she never wore a dress to school so she just figured they'd assume she wasn't going to wear one to graduation either. Remember what I said earlier: a LOT of the girls who go to that school never wear dresses to school. Yet somehow all of them managed to find their way into one for graduation. Something tells me that many of the graduates would have enjoyed having the option of wearing slacks and blouse instead of dress and pumps.

[pnwmom]

60. Who says that they would have changed the code if she had brought it up?

That's giving them credit for more sense than I think they could have.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

68. Exactly. Schools aren't known for being "brilliant" about dress codes.

My senior year, tank tops were suddenly outlawed about a month before the end of the school year. A bunch of students started talking about having a "tank top day" as a response.

Guess what the administrations response was?

Anyone wearing a tank top, even as a solo student, would be suspended for 10 days for protesting on school grounds. Any other dress code violation just meant them telling you to change it (and even that was rarely enforced).

[pnwmom]

79. Why do public schools always seem on the verge of treating

students as criminals?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

156. My school had awesome teachers and nice vice principals...

just a fucking fuckwad for a principal. He retired the year after I graduated. The tank top thing wasn't even the worst of his offenses.

[northzax]

87. well, don't you honestly have an obligation to try?

if you think a rule is unfair, and this one pretty much is, and you know about it in advance, isn't a better way to address it by talking about it in advance? Why assume they won't change anything? Don't you have a moral obligation to the other students, the ones who might not feel comfortable challenging the rule, to ask about it? maybe she could have found twenty other students willing to stand with her?

and yes, it's a silly rule, after all, I wore flip flops with my suit to graduate from prep school, and my diploma still says graduated.

[pnwmom]

96. Maybe she thought her chances of succeeding were low.

And that no one would notice if she wore something comfortable under that long robe.

[northzax]

128. what she wore isn't comfortable

no one wants to wear a black suit, with a tie, in the summer.

[Captain Hilts]

129. I'd rather wear a tie than that big, plastic baggy called 'hose'. nt

[LostinVA]

174. On a hot day. In the sun. While you sweat. OMG.

TORTURE.

[pnwmom]

170. And remind me who really wants to wear pantyhose and heels?

The boys weren't wearing suits, just white shirts and black slacks and ties. And I don't see what difference the color would make, since it's all under a long gown anyway. That's why this whole thing was so stupid. Such a big commotion over a couple of inches of black around her ankles, and comfortable shoes instead of crippling heels.

There should definitely be a law against requiring anyone to wear shoes that hurt.

[proud2BlibKansan]

217. Well how would we know what they would have said ?

She didn't bother to ask.

[pnwmom]

274. But she knows them. We don't. Her chance of guessing their possible

answer is better than ours.

If she guess they would say no anyway -- why ask?

[LostinVA]

117. She didn't have anything to mention

The school broke the law. She adhered to the graduation dress code. They were jerks.

I see you're in Fayetteville. Attitudes like this is why I am so glad I only had to live in that town for two years.

[ncrainbowgrrl]

323. In high school, I was painfully shy.

I might have gone to see an administrator one- on- one.

But to stand up in front of my peers and, (especially if I had any gender-dysphoric issues at the time,) mention that I didn't feel comfortable in a dress would have been something that I would rather have DIED than done. I probably would have gone to the meeting, walked out at the end of the meeting time and cried... Only when no one could see me cry though.

I don't know what I would have worn in her situation. If my parents were conservative, any gender-dysphoria issues would never be discussed around the dinner table. Perhaps the requisite shoes were bought, the dress was ready, and nothing was ever said at home about anything out of the ordinary regarding graduation day. I don't know the full story here...


I do know that for a long time, wearing a dress was painful for me. I hated the way I felt in a dress or a skirt. I hated the way it made me look, and when I looked in the mirror, I didn't see myself there anymore. I had no idea about gender theory, or why I felt that way, or even that there was anything out there called "androgyny".

I wear dresses now and high heels. I'm more comfortable in jeans and a t-shirt. (guys' jeans) I own makeup- and have worn it recently. Yet it took that time in my life to become comfortable with my sexuality, and gender, and even body image. I can't imagine what choices I would have made if I were an 18 year old kid having to deal with all of these issues without the freedom I now possess to speak out, and speak up. That shy teenager I used to be would have stayed completely silent at the meetings. But wearing clothing that made me feel like a fraud to my own graduation would probably have been too much. I would have shown up to get my diploma, not to make a statement. I probably would have brought the pumps, but not worn them.

If this was a planned stunt, however, and not the results of some discomfort on her part to comply with the set dress code, I suppose my opinion of the situation changes. If you're able to speak up, feel comfortable speaking up and don't, or ignore the code, assuming that "it'll just go away", then I probably would ask why she didn't ask. Also- if other kids didn't want to wear heels- why didn't they ask about it? Why was it only her responsibility to make the school change the code? I don't know.

I guess I'm just rambling. But now I do want to get the full story and learn more about what happened only about 90 minutes from where I live. Thanks for bringing this up on DU.

[Captain Hilts]

12. Hosiery in June is cruel and unusual punishment.

She should have stopped at the tie.

Hosiery is hot and requires a set of shoes that fit differently.

Dark shoes with dark socks is fine for everyone.

[pnwmom]

61. HEELS are cruel and unusual punishment.

I've never ever worn them because they hurt my toes. And I don't need to be any taller.

[conflictgirl]

13. If half the girls in the school don't own dresses

Then maybe the school needs to change their completely arbitrary rule requiring women to wear dresses to graduation. Seems like such a no-brainer to me. The women have to wear hosiery and heels with their dresses? Sounds completely retro to me.

A dress code is one thing. I'll support the right to have a dress code. But it should not be one with different prescribed standards for males and females. Why can't they just make a dress code of white shirt, black pants or skirt, and dress shoes? How hard is that? Seems pretty simple and like it would solve the problem.

[kiahzero]

16. State: North Carolina

That's probably why it can't be that simple.

(I say that like Virginia's much better... :eyes:)

[LostinVA]

40. Fayetteville: conservative military town

Douglas Byrd: one of the most conservative ina conservative town.

Shades of lesbianism, also. This town can't take that! (I unfortunately lived there for four years)

[conflictgirl]

17. Also, it seems really pathetic that in 2006 women still have to protest

just for the right to wear PANTS!

And some young women I know say there's no need for feminism anymore. :eyes:

[kiahzero]

20. Women wearing mens clothes is communism

Didn't you get that memo?

[jmowreader]

23. If there were no gender-appropriate pants for women I'd agree

Men's pants don't even fit women right--women flare out below the waistline more than men do.

[lukasahero]

26. Ah yes, because of course all women are built the same

FTR, I buy my Levi's in the boys department because the damn cut of "women's" jeans don't freakin' fit. Get over it. Who the f*ck cares whether her pants are "men's" or "women's"? As long as they are neat and they are what half the population of the school was allowed to wear then she should have been allowed to wear them as well. Sounds like you think she'd have been better off in the new Burka line that's coming out when the religious wrong finally have their way.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. You tell him.

:thumbsup:

[kiahzero]

27. What don't you understand?

You can't set two different standards for men and women. It's illegal. Period. She dressed in one of the two sets of attire that was listed as appropriate. She was discriminated against for choosing the set that was designated for men, rather than the set that was designated for women.

The more she deviated from the given slate of clothing, the weaker her case would be.

[BlackVelvet04]

29. I don't.....

I'm thin and I wear men's jeans all the time. Women's flare out where I don't.

[Ms. Toad]

31. FWIW I wear men's corduroys and dress khakis

because I can no longer find pleated front women's pants (dress or otherwise), and pleated front pants are much more flattering to most any shape than the dreadful flat front all women's pants have now. The waist is a tad large for me, but I have a fairly traditional shape. Most women these days have a much larger waist to hip ratio (our waists have gotten thicker) and can even buy men's pants which fit both waist and hips with no trouble at all.

[kiahzero]

33. My girlfriend has a habit of stealing my pants

It's OK, because it allows me to make horrible puns that no one laughs at.

[Captain Hilts]

36. LOTS of women wear men's pants -

because they are not cut so high and actually have room for a waistline without the legs being too baggy.

Also, men's pants are designed to be altered to fit the individual wearer.

So, yes, a lot of women do wear men's pants. I haven't worn women's pants for years. In most cases, you can't tell the difference.

[pnwmom]

49. Please read the article again. It doesn't say she was wearing boy's

clothes -- only that she wore clothes that fit the boy's dress code.

But who cares about the fit when you're wearing it under a graduation robe?

[kiahzero]

50. Sexist bigots.

That's the only reason you could possibly agree with the illegal acts in question.

[pnwmom]

59. My public school stopped arguing about pants 35 years ago. It amazes

me that this could possibly be an issue anywhere -- especially under graduation robes!

[LostinVA]

118. Agreed n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

69. I have several pairs of pants from the boys department.

I have very narrow hips.

[Maru Kitteh]

76. Where the fuck in the article did it say "mens" dress pants?

Mmmm, that's right, nowhere. Oh, and who gives a fuck whether they were sold in the penis or vagina department? Who the hell has those kinds of issues and hangups? It's just sad.

[pnwmom]

94. NOWHERE. And who cares when it's UNDER an academic gown?

[pnwmom]

85. The article doesn't even say she was wearing men's pants. But you don't

know her figure -- maybe men's pants fit her better. And she was wearing them UNDER a robe anyway. All you could see would be a couple of inches of black at her ankles.

[LostinVA]

119. Guess you haven't been to Old Navy, huh?

Half the people buying men's jeans and khakis are WOMEN... including my partner. Lots of us can fit into them, and prefer them over ass-revealing pants cut for anorexic 15-year-olds.

[Scout]

126. Men's pants don't even fit women right

bullshit.

Forcing women and girls to wear dresses and panythose and heels is sexist and archaic. Not to mention fucking ridiculous.

"The only reason men put women on a pedestal is so they can look up her DRESS."

you like dresses so much, you wear one.

[JerseygirlCT]

180. Some women do. Some don't. You seem to have some

strange fixation on women wearing "men's" clothes.

Takes me back several decades...

[femrap]

205. Not all women....

I'm a women with small hips. Men's jeans fit me much better.

Women can be either 'pears or apples.'

All of this talk has made me want to go see a good 'drag show.' Maybe I'll go catch the movie, 'Kinky Boots.'

Men strutting around in heels....

[SemiCharmedQuark]

360. I have a straight body, no curves. I wear mens pants.

If I wear girls pants, they gather around me and I look absolutely ridiculous.

[One_Life_To_Give]

198. Men have to protest for the right to wear skirts

What is worse. Women having to occasionaly wear skirts/dresses or Men always having to wear pants?

[bunyip]

78. Because that would be logical.

This is the district's way of protesting the 21st century. :rollseyes:

[bloom]

14. Sounds like 1969 or something.

sheesh.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. I was going to say 1910.

A woman in pants? The harlot!

[kiahzero]

22. That's something I never understood

How a woman could be insulted as promiscuous for wearing a garment that covers more than their traditional attire.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

24. If she's wearing pants...

you can see her crotch.

[Ms. Toad]

75. Nah,

we still had a girls must wear dresses dress code in 1969. We'd walk the mile to school in pants that had to be stripped off when we got to school since we weren't permitted to wear pants. In 1969 the high school students at the new school were allowed to wear pants for some reason - perhaps the HVAC system wasn't quite tweaked properly yet. Shortly thereafter they dropped the requirement for everyone.

[pnwmom]

106. I also remember walking to school with pants under my skirt so my legs

wouldn't freeze in the ice and the snow.

When I was in the 8th grade some of the 6th grade girls had a "sit-down strike" in the hall over the issue. And some of them had parents who were lawyers, so that was that.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

133. I taught at a fairly poor school.

I remember dresses being part of the dress code well into the sixties but if a girl wore pants to school it was usually because the family couldn't afford one, and she had to wear her brothers hand-me-downs. Nobody ever got in trouble over it and certainly nobody ever got left out of graduation. Boys with long hair was another matter.

[TahitiNut]

18. Fashion Fascism is just as reprehensible as any kind of fascism.

I think female 'fashion' is literally insane - and male 'fashion' neurotic. I detest neckties and regard them as pure evil. I'd go ballistic if I were female. High heels? Not on your life. (Originated to accentuate the calf - for erotic purposes.) Lipstick? Good luck. (Parisian prostitutes wore it to mark a circle around the male's penis - so he could show his friends, I guess. Advertising. The 'ladies' of the court emulated this 'fashion' as a fad - and we're still seeing women do it.) Girdles? Bullshit. Dirt (make-up) on the face? Yechhh! (Might as well smear a face with cow manure!) Skirts/dresses? Why not nun's habits for Christ's sake? Fucking stupid! I've used up all my patience for this kind of crap in my 6+ decades on the planet. I have no patience for it left.

I sometimes think my ideal would be if folks wore medical scrubs and Birkenstocks or athletc shoes. Colors and patterns? Go for it! Fancy fabrics for 'dressy' affairs? Terrific. Cut off pantlegs for relaxing on hot days? Fine.

[Lady Effingbroke]

30. TahitiNut, you are my new hero!

:yourock:

I have said for years that there is no purpose in washing my face then smearing a bunch of crap all over it in a vain attempt to impress others. If someone doesn't like the way my face looks au naturel, then they can take their ass on down the road!

Heels and dresses suck, too. I find them to be uncomfortable and restrictive. I feel very vulnerable and uncomfortable on the (very) few occasions, usually some odious "official function", when I must wear them.

[alarimer]

45. I'm with you

And I recall having to wear a dress to both my graduations. We were required to wear white dresses to the high school graduation (the gowns were white). Which pissed me off but I gave in as usual. I wore a dress to college graduation to please my mom I guess I don't think it was required. WHen I get my graduate degree (assuming I ever do and assuming I go) I won't wear a dress. Although it is Texas A&M so who knows what kind of crappy sexist rules they might have?

I don't even wear a skirt to job interviews anymore.

[TahitiNut]

84. I won't wear rings or jewelry or hair gel or anything scented, either.

Don't get me wrong ... I'm not some hairy, smelly beast. I shave and keep my hair trimmed, although I've tried a beard and long hair and didn't like 'em. I like feeling clean and showered - and think there's nothing sexier than the 'just-showered' look (and smell and feel).

I just think all that stuff is neurotic - supporting industries better directed to feeding, teaching, housing, and caring for people.

I wore 3-piece suits and wing-tips for over 15 years. I've done my time in the 'game' - no more.

My idea of 'dress-up' is wearing a pareo. :party:

[kineneb]

58. You need to visit my county

where men's "formal" is often interperted as "print Hawiian shirt with slacks". I was at a wedding recption and a number of the men there were dressed in Lake County (California) Formal. Some of the others had unique versions of shirt and tie.

I have been known to wear dresses, but then to me they are a costume, much like my Elizabethan Court outfit. It is complete with corset, hoops and much wool, which I have worn outside in 105 deg. heat. As a musician, I have the "wedding gig" costume, the "basic black concert dress" costume, the "black pants and white shirt" costume, etc. The next adventure will be a 1890s outfit, sort of a Gibson Girl look.

All clothing is costume, some people just get stuck in one era. Me, I like shocking pink, preferably with other bright colors. And the Red Hat Society colors are fun, too.

[Castilleja]

103. Coolest post in this thread!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[pnwmom]

108. Medical scrubs and birkenstocks. That's pretty much the style here in

the N.W. More or less.

Okay, sweats and Birkenstocks. Isn't that close enough?

Oh, and hiking boots and athletic shoes, of course.

[Dem2theMax]

116. A man after my own heart. Can we clone you? LOL.

It's jeans, t-shirt and tennis shoes for me. No crap in my hair and no make-up on my face. I feel like I've painted myself silly when I wear make-up. I'm about to turn 50 and my skin looks like it belongs on the face of a 20 something female. I swear the reason my skin looks so good is because I don't put all that crap on my face every day. And high heels? Those are for women who want bad feet and bad backs. It's flats for me. I refuse to be a slave to 'fashion' and the 'must have items' of the day.
My purse must be at least eight years old. GASP! And it was cheap. LOL.

Bravo to your post! ;-)

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

25. The dress code for graduation should be the same they allow for school.

And that's it. As has been pointed out - at a graduation, your gown covers pretty much everything anyway. I remember having to buy a white dress a long time ago and then having the robe COVER IT COMPLETELY and thinking, "crap, why did I have to buy this dress I didn't want, that no one can see, that I will never wear again?!" The median income of Fayetteville North Carolina is not exactly Greenwich Connecticut and I don't think the majority of high school graduates there need an extra dictated (stupid) bureaucratic expense. And DRESSES required? - give me a freaking break - that IS like a throwback to the fifties.

[alarimer]

46. It was required at my high school 20 years ago

Still 1986 was not 1956 but it was Marietta, GA (home of the people who lynched Leo Frank and also the home of Newt Gingrinch, for a little historical trivia).

[LostinVA]

120. I wore shorts to my college graduation

It was 98 and sunny, and no way in hell I was wearing a heavy dress and hose under a heavy black robe and hood.

I only wear dresses to certain job interviews, funerals, and some weddings. We didn't even have to wear dresses to my HS graduation in 1982.... we were just told that no shorts or jeans were allowed.

[BlackVelvet04]

32. I'm with her....

I don't do dresses either. The one's that fit in the top don't fit in the bottom and vice versa. It's a pain in the butt trying to find clothes to fit.

[Captain Hilts]

57. You can say that again. They just don't fit.

I read recently how only 15% of women have the "hour glass" shape that nearly all women's clothes are designed to fit.

The other 85% has to improvise.

[BlackVelvet04]

65. I wear a ten

on the top and a six slim on the bottom. Try buying THAT in a dress or suit.

[Captain Hilts]

81. Whatever the hell 'ten' and 'six' actually stand for. nt

[katamaran]

35. Sheesh...I went through almost the exact same thing MANY times

My parents and I fought with my teachers, principals and school board over the rules that girls must wear dresses at certain functions. First time was when I was in middle school band. I came to MS graduation wearing a blouse and nice skort. My band director threatened to flunk me because I didn't have a skirt on (if you miss a performance, automatic F). We were supposed to play Pomp and Circumstance...but the band director wasn't even going to be there. There were guys there wearing Hawaiian shirts and black jeans...one of which cut the strap off of his bookbag to make a quickie necktie out of. And THAT was okay? We went to the principal...who couldn't believe that I didn't have "church clothes." Hello? Raging agnostics and athiests here! I had to go to the school board to get my F reversed. Even the superintendant was condescending to us...like we were anarchist because I didn't want to wear a skirt.

At HS graduation ten years ago, the original dress code was girls in white dresses, guys in black slacks, white shirts, black tie. Two years before that, it began raining at the outdoor graduation. The RED gowns bled onto everyones' dresses. They lifted the white dress rule, but still said no pants for girls. So I went in a tank top and shorts. Never revealed myself until after graduation, which got a few high fives from my teachers and friends. I ended up holding about ten peoples' car keys though. One guy wore shorts, but had taped cut off khaki bottoms to his calves. It was 95 degrees that day.

[NiteOwll]

98. That sounds like my graduations

The rule at my HS graduation was that girls had to wear a dress or skirt. I went in the most dressy shorts and blouse that I could find. No one even noticed that I was wearing shorts until after the ceremony, when we were turning in our caps and gowns, and I got a dirty look from the graduation advisor.

I hope no parent, student, or guest was emotionally scarred from learning that I attended my graduation wearing...OMG... SHORTS! No, let me take that back, I could really care less what they thought. :eyes:

[LostinVA]

121. I wore shorts to my college graduation

I get you!

[Katherine Brengle]

39. Um, I'd have to side with her--why should she wear a dress if she

doesn't want to? Dress code for graduation? How about a robe, like every other high school, under which you wear whatever you choose to wear.

[prole_for_peace]

42. us girls were told to wear WHITE shoes to my hs graduation.

i went out and bought the brightest red pair of high heels i could find. then there was the deal with no bangs under the mortar boards. this one bi*ch that was a counselor (ha) would come around and, using a pencil, shove hair back under the hats. as soon as she turned around we would all pull our bangs back down. what did it matter? we were all clean and decently dressed UNDER our gowns. it is just their last chance to bully these kids and they are not going to miss out.

[Captain Hilts]

55. Most people look HORRIBLE in white shoes, or like Minnie Mouse. nt

[hedgehog]

64. Bully the "kids" is right although many (most?) of those "kids"

are over 18 and are actually adults.

By the way - how did they ensure that all the hosiery matched the skin tone? My legs never tan and I would have been wearing white hose. Did they select different shades of hose for different melanin levels?

How high did the heels have to be? I've never worn anything over 1/2" which is technically a flat.

[pnwmom]

111. And do they feel all the ankles to make sure hose is actually being

worn and it's not that spray on tan stuff? Cause you never know what those girls might try to get away with in the heat of a North Carolina summer day. Underneath their full length academic robes and appropriately female dress some of them might try to get away with bare ankles!

[pnwmom]

43. It sounds like you are madder at her because she went to the trouble

of following a dress code the the T -- albeit the boy's dress code -- than you would have been if she had simply worn black slacks and a white top.

I don't get it.

My daughter's jazz band had a similar dress code -- white dress shirts for everybody. Black slacks for boys, black slacks or skirts for girls. All the pictures looked nice, and I assume that's what they're aiming for.

I don't know where you live, but decorum doesn't require girls to wear skirts. Ever. Ask Hillary Clinton.

[One_Life_To_Give]

203. Sexist dress code

Requiring only Boys to wear pants.

[dsc]

44. I agree that it is stupid to have one set of standards for girls

and another for boys but one comment that has repeatedly been given here involving the robes is wrong. The robes do cover but they are so flimsy you can often see underneath them. That is why white is given as the color for the top.

[pnwmom]

277. I've had two recent graduates in robes and neither robe was so flimsy

you could see through it.

[dsc]

282. our robes are those thin plastic like cloth

They are cheap disposable except they will keep them. We also have a light set of school colors so that makes it worse.

[pnwmom]

314. I guess yours must be cooler, which would be good. Hers is a dark color

and didn't appear to be see-through in the photographs, at least.

[dsc]

333. I teach so I only see them but they probably are fairly cool

which is a good thing.

[kath]

51. Heh, at my graduation I don't remember them being real picky about WHAT we

were wearing under our robes, but they were damn sure checking to make sure everyone was wearing SOMETHING underneath. This was in 1974, the early days of the streaking craze. A few weeks before, at our Senior Talent Night, a couple of sophomores streaked across the stage, each with a "7" on the left butt-cheek and a "6" on the right.

[pnwmom]

80. LOL!

[Swamp Rat]

52. I hope she sues, and the school admin gets fired. n/t

[kineneb]

53. and now...from California

I went to a high school graduation yesterday. The participants were wearing everything from formal dresses, goth black with zippers to shorts (and perhaps swimsuits - I didn't ask) all under their graduation robes. Footwear ranged from dress shoes to flip-flops.

Hey, I wore bell-bottom jeans, a home-made long sleeve shirt and comfortable shoes in 1976 when I graduated- got the photo to prove it. I sure as hell wasn't going to sit out on a football field at sunset in a dress no one could see.

What planet is this high school from, so I can avoid it.

The important thing is the students graduated, not what they did or didn't wear.

[sandnsea]

63. And Oregon too

I think that's the kind of stuff they wore at my son's graduation in Montana too. Most girls don't even wear hose anymore anyway. It's their day, we let them have it the way they want it.

[pnwmom]

109. I was going to ask: what is hose again? It sounds familiar.

Probably one of those other memories from my past lives.

[pnwmom]

97. That's the whole point of academic robes, IMO. Everybody looks the

same outside, and it doesn't matter what is worn underneath. As long as something's worn underneath.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

161. Yeah, we had a dress code for graduation.

The assistant principals did the check. Basically, they were just making sure we had clothes. They didn't really care whether the clothes were following the "dress code."

However, we wouldn't get our diplomas if we threw our hats up after graduation. In all my HS graduation pictures, I'm grinning like a fool pointing to the empty folder.

[LostinVA]

251. OMG -- they did the same thing with our mortarboards, too!

They took PHOTOS to see who threw their hats, and then wouldn't mail the diplomas. Needless to say, they changed their minds after some parents called...

[LostinVA]

122. It's in Fayetteville, NC, a very conservative military town

And where yours truly was fired from a jon in 1991 because her boss found out she was dating a woman.

Not an usual sentiment in the town, unfortunately.

[hedgehog]

66. Remember, what goes around comes around

We have a lot of young parents in my district who only graduated themselves five or ten years ago. Believe me, they remember how little respect they received as students and their anger shows through when their own kids run up against the administration. It can be a bad thing because sometimes the parents need to work with the school administration or a teacher. As it is, the parents automatically side with the kid no matter the situation. In my own case, I graduated from a Catholic girl's high school back in 1972. We had a really rough time the last two years with a principal who seemed to believe that we weer all juvenile delinquents. These women are now doctors, lawyers, managers etc and you would not believe the anger that comes out at high school reunions even 25 years later!

[pnwmom]

86. I just don't get why so many schools treat their students as

potential criminals. In elementary school, the teachers and staff are wonderful. But there is a whole different atmosphere in the middle schools, and sometimes I think it's because the staff EXPECT the worst out of their students.

You don't see this same atmosphere in parochial schools, and it's not because the students there are saints. I really think it's because the students are more likely to live up to the positive standards there. In the public school, they can sense right away that no one trusts them . . . and they're likely to live up to that.

[lonestarnot]

67. Well maybe she had bigfoot in a leglock and didn't want to shave him.

[JVS]

71. School to student: Take off those pants!

I can see the headlines now!

[Captain Hilts]

That's what RKO Film studio told Hepburn ...the rest is history. nt

[woo me with science]

74. Oh, for pete's sake (exasperation at administration, not OP)

What a way to pick a fight for no reason. It sounds like she was clean and neatly dressed in the appropriate colors, with all the potentially disruptive body parts adequately covered. I remember people wearing shorts and flip flops under their gowns at my graduation, and the focus was still where it should have been--on the joy of having made it to that glorious day. If this is what the school board considers a finger in the eye, they must have way too much time on their hands.

[pnwmom]

82. This is why it would be so hard for me to live in much of the South.

Excuse me, southern DU'ers, but it's true. I can't imagine anyone I know in Washington -- even Republicans! -- talking about the need for girls to wear heels and stockings in order to maintain "decorum."

[Quantess]

77. So, you think the girl was in the wrong?

Okay, yes, womens pants would have been probably a better choice, but pants are pants. And how do you know she doesn't dress like that everyday? Maybe all she owns are guys' pants.

And how does this disrupt "decorum" if she is wearing one of the two required clothing options? She just would be dressed the same as the boys, that's all. That isn't outrageous.

What decade is this, anyway?

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. I agree with you

This girl ahould have spoken up long before graduation. I am sure the school made the dress code abundantly clear weeks before hand.

It also isn't an unreasonable dress code. This girl is fortunate if this is the most serious problem in her life today.

[conflictgirl]

88. It's not unreasonable to have different dress codes for males and females?

I agree that this girl is fortunate if it's her most serious problem in her life. But at the same time, especially looking at the state of our nation right now, I think we should be happy that young people are willing to stand up for what they believe in.

I support having a dress code, but don't understand why there needs to be a different one for males and females.

[proud2BlibKansan]

90. I don't see the dress code as the issue so much

My point is she had time before the graduation to work this out. She could have fought this then. But she chose to violate the dress code and in an extreme way.

[pnwmom]

93. What is so extreme about wearing slacks under your academic robes

instead of a dress and stockings? All anyone can see is a couple of inches around the ankles, and no one is focusing on that area anyway.

[proud2BlibKansan]

100. She's a she

Besides, the focus of the event should be the graduates, not a classmate who is violating the dress code.

[pnwmom]

104. Because "she's a she"??? Are you kidding? When was the last time we

saw Hillary Clinton in anything other than a pantsuit? We're not in the 19th century anymore, or even the 20th.

I don't think the other students would even have noticed, if the administrator hadn't made such an issue of it. And what if they had? So what? Is it so important that a high school principal hang on to every last sliver of power? Couldn't the principle have made a principled decision to be flexible?

[proud2BlibKansan]

134. It's called decorum

Nothing wrong with that. It's not about power to this principal! He is enforcing community standards. I doubt the other parents wanted him to be flexible about the dress code for graduation. You seem to forget that this girl is not the only one who graduated in that school.

How important is this? This girl will surely have more difficult problems as she goes through life. I also find it ridiculous that she waited to make a scene at graduation when she had how much time beforehand to ask that the rules be changed?

It's also not about what Hillary Clinton wears. It's about the rules for dress at one school's graduation. This little girl decided to break them. Period.

[Lars39]

135. "This little girl"?

Tells me all I need to know.

[proud2BlibKansan]

141. She sure doesn't strike me as being very high on the maturity scale

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

143. Really?

Because she strikes me as being more mature than the school administrators. Or her detractors on this thread.

[Lars39]

144. To the contrary, those that made such a big deal over her attire

were the immature. With most of her outfit hidden under a robe, her choice would have resulted in about 2 minutes worth of conversation, tops.

[pnwmom]

179. Some of the adults around here strike me as being very high

on the judgmental scale.

[pnwmom]

193. I bet Cindy believes in black slacks for girls.

[proud2BlibKansan]

210. What does this have to do with Cindy?

answer - nothing

Now tell my why, if this girl wanted to wear slacks, didn't she ask before showing up in them? She didn't even try to fight this rule. She just decided to break it. That's not a very effective way to CHANGE a rule.

Oh wait, maybe she didn't want to effect a lasting change - but just get some attention for herself.

[pnwmom]

278. I bet if you asked Cindy, she would think this girl should have been

allowed to attend her own graduation. Cindy doesn't seem like the kind of person who puts a lot of emphasis on a "smart appearance." That's part of what is wonderful about her. She is so natural and sincere and unaffected.

And in case you've forgotten, Cindy is from California. The word "decorum" isn't even in the dictionary there.

[kiahzero]

294. I never realized

Maturity was defined as caving in to illegal actions because to do other wise would cause a scene.

I guess I'll always be immature, then. :shrug:

[pnwmom]

178. What about black slacks, exactly, is not in accord with decorum?

And if slacks accord with decorum for the boys, why not the girls? As I said, women at the highest levels of society wear them every day.

Again, they're all wearing long gowns, which would seem to make them all decorous enough.

[Captain Hilts]

147. I think Laura wears pants at more events than Hillary did. Even to church

Laura regularly is photographed wearing pants to church.

[pnwmom]

182. I wonder what the decorum arbiters have to say about that.

[Quantess]

99. extreme?

:eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

136. She dressed like a boy!

She could have worn nice slacks and a blouse but instead, she wore pants, a shirt and a tie.

[Lars39]

146. Kinda ironic, given your sig line.

Haven't you realized yet that "Well behaved women never make history."?

[proud2BlibKansan]

208. This is about a dress code, not a war.

Nice strawman though. :eyes:

[Captain Hilts]

149. When does a 'shirt' become a 'blouse'?

Because it's all under a black robe, it's just not that distracting.

Now, talk to me about the swim team that wore flip flops to the White House and I'll come down like a hammer on the side of decorum. But not here.

[pnwmom]

194. Ooh! Ooh! (Raises hand) I know! I know! Ask ME!

A shirt becomes a blouse when. . .

a dry cleaner wants to charge twice as much for the laundering.

[proud2BlibKansan]

209. And the buttons are on a different side too

:)

[pnwmom]

279. That's true. I wonder who thought that one up. And why?

Must have been a plot with the laundries.

[LostinVA]

158. Perhaps she wants to dress like a boy, no one is even mentioning that

Brandon Teena, etc.? That's what I got from the photo and her interview. That's her business, and her legal right to do so. If she wishes to dress like a boy -- at any time -- or have a male haircut, or walk like a guy, or whatever, more power to her. And, if I'm off base (although I don't think I am), and she's making a statement about ludicrous gender pigeon-holing -- more power to her on that, too.

I know you're a teacher, and I personally agree with dress codes in schools. I actually believe in students wearing uniforms. But, this young woman did adhere to the dress code. A public school saying females have to wear clothing gender-oriented is illegal. Again, she followed the dress code.

The only people who disrupted anything was the Administration. They showed their pettiness and silliness by refusing to let her even attend graduation as a spectator... which may also be illegal. This was a public event at a public facility.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

168. From her appearance, I would say that she presents boyish.

The pictures weren't working for me before. Now that I see them, yes it probably was a gender statement and I support her completely. Schools should allow their students to be comfortable, not wear something that feels wrong for them. Personally, I don't mind wearing dresses (although I did wear a tux to one prom), but I know other lesbians that downright are out of place in a dress or even women's clothes.

[LostinVA]

172. It's the same with me

I'm sooo happy I can wear jeans, shorts, etc, to work... and I don't like "dressing up." But, on certain thankfully rare occasion, I do. Even hose *shudder*. However, like you, I've known lesbians who are literally shaken to the core by the idea of having to dress this way. It would be like telling the butchest, straightest boy in that school he HAS to wear a dress to graduation. It's not natural for them. It's humiliating and embarrassing. And, she shouldn't be forced to adhere to some artificial, rather homophobic feminine ideal. Hey, it's Fayetteville!

And, by her photos, she is definitely either a butch lesbian or someone who is on the road to being transgendered.

[Scout]

237. oh please

"by her photos, she is definitely either a butch lesbian or someone who is on the road to being transgendered"

stereotype much?

[LostinVA]

254. No, I don't. -- I'm a a lesbian

And I'm going my rather extensive life experiences and knowledge about this from about age 12 to my current age of 41. I'm defending this girl, not criticizing her.

Go pick your battles with the real bigots on DU. I sure as hell aren't one of them... especially against lesbians.

I was fired in this fucking town for dating a girl. My sister's best friend as this same high school was a gay boy, and he was taunted, often beaten up, and fake raped in the locker room. Jesus, your post pisses me off.

[Scout]

275. same right back to ya', your post really pissed me off.

You looked at the outward appearance of a person and determined this:
"And, by her photos, she is definitely either a butch lesbian or someone who is on the road to being transgendered."

I'd say that's stereotyping. What makes you think she's not a heterosexual? People used to stereotype me that way, becuase I eschew dresses, and makeup, and I don't look or act like a girly-girl. But that doesn't make me a lesbian, it makes me a heterosexual who doesn't like to wear dresses and finds no need to slop goop on my face to please other people.

And before you jump all over my shit, I don't care if she is or isn't actually a lesbian or a heterosexual, it's the stereotyping that pisses me off.

[lukasahero]

164. So did Annie Hall - 30 years ago

You'd think we'd have gotten over it by now. :eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

211. For her high schol graduation?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

165. Other than the tie, we don't know if she wore men's clothes or not.

Anyway, some women wear ties. I have straight female friends that will wear a thin tie with women's slacks and dress shirt.

I don't see why it would matter if she was dressed boyish or not. Hell, my date and I wore matching tuxes to my senior prom. No one made a big deal out of it. No one cared or seemed offended. Of course, I went to a liberal HS.

[pnwmom]

188. That's not true. The article specifically said she wore slacks, NOT pants.

You and the OP have been assuming she was wearing boy's pants, but the article NEVER said that.

Not that it even should matter. Will you please explain how the exact fit of her girls/slacks/boys/pants or the shape of her girls/blouse/boys/shirt could possibly matter when it was all UNDER her long academic robe?

[LostinVA]

252. *sigh* it is ironic because of teh pink triangle n/t

[Quantess]

324. Oh no! Dressing like a boy! The horror!

This is getting downright silly. This thread is starting to crack me up.
What do women wear in your region...Scarlett O'Hara gowns? :banghead:

Men's pants and women's pants are sometimes not terribly different. I've worn mens pants before, but no one has ever accused me of trying to "dress like a boy".

And how much of those pants, shirt, and tie could be seen under the gown, anyway?

Just curious, what do you think of women with short hair?

[lukasahero]

130. "she chose to violate the dress code" Yup. Civil disobedience.

We used to admire it.

No one got hurt. No property was damaged.

She said to the administration: "I will not curtsy in my ribbons and bows for you. I will wear what the young men here are allowed to wear because I am their equal."

Good for her.

[proud2BlibKansan]

137. I can sure think of more important battles

if she is into civil disobedience.

[Captain Hilts]

150. So many private schools in US/Canada require girls to wear ties....

it's just not that big a deal. Waitresses in many restaurants wear them.

In Toronto I saw it all the time. Looked great with the plaid skirts and blazers.

I think in this day and age it's to discourage girls from wearing shrink wrap to school.

[lukasahero]

160. Last I checked

we still lived in a country that allowed us the freedom to choose what battles we wanted to fight. I suppose she felt that young women being considered and treated equal to the young men in her class was a plenty "important" battle. If other battles are more important to you, feel free to go fight them and let her do the same.

[proud2BlibKansan]

224. And she hopefully knew the risk she was taking

She wasn't allowed to graduate. I hope she thinks taking this stand was worth that.

[lukasahero]

227. "was barred from participating in her school’s graduation ceremony"

That's from the article. She wasn't allowed to participate in her graduation ceremony. That's not the same thing as not being allowed to graduate.

[proud2BlibKansan]

239. You are right.

I should have stated it that way. Sorry.

[pnwmom]

190. I think this is good practice for her. You have to start somewhere.

Otherwise, you might end up being one of those people who think proper decorum is more important than, say, freedom of speech.

[pnwmom]

110. And the school is extremely fortunate if they have so little to worry

about that this counts as a disciplinary issue.

[pnwmom]

92. And why would it have been so awful if 1/3 of the class HAD shown up

wearing kente clothes under their gowns? Why wouldn't that have been wonderful? Just because the bigots in the school wouldn't have liked it?

[Castilleja]

101. Students academics=School business,

Clothing, underwear, hair color, shoes=NOT school business. Not to mention that this is graduation from school, meaning school is over, these people are adults. The focus should be on the graduation, not on fashion critique. Also, it is never the schools business whether a graduate is clean shaven or not before they graduate, which was a main concern of our local HS this year. I believe they do not wish to acknowledge the adulthood of these students.

[SoCalDem]

107. We wore cut-offs under the gown

and sandals.. of course it WAS 1967:)

[nolabels]

113. I told the ole effing HS to stick it

I was working swing-shift, woke up late and showed up late for HS a couple times. So being the genius organizations HS's are, they suspended me for being late. So right after they suspended I walked over to the Army recruiters and signed up. I was eighteen and all the school could do was be surprised. I wasn't lacking discipline but just lacking a alarm clock.

What the hell do you graduate to anyway; more ridicule from college professors :shrug:

[pnwmom]

115. Actually, college professors tend to be much more civil.

If you end up going back to school some day you might be pleasantly surprised.

[nolabels]

145. At 47 I have been to all the school I am ever going to volunteer for.

If I need know about something anymore I turn to the keyboard. I got a high school diploma while still in military. Got my life's trade from there in the military also. Actually have attended many classes at community colleges and other institutions that expanded my knowledge in diesel trucks and their repair. Just like like a plumber, I will probably just about always be able make a living at it.

What i was just getting on about is that public school is there mostly to train you to act in certain ways and think like everybody else. And oh yes, them college professors do ridicule, in a intellectual way, you just have to be cued into it while it happens. College and it's professor that teach there are only as good as the student that go in and out of them (in most cases).

[adwon]

112. My hometown

Nothing more really to add :P

[LostinVA]

123. Poor thing...

[Hekate]

114. What year of which century? 1950? Was she supposed to wear white gloves?

Ridiculous. All the kids are wearing cap and gown I presume. Unless the school has a dress code for regular school days, I find it hard to imagine they could actually make this silly rule work in this century.

Don't get me wrong: I like school dress codes, within reason. Requiring tidy clothes every day is one way of reminding youngsters that school is not a day at the beach. Community standards differ, also a lot depends on climate.

But this story reminds me of the community college I attended after high school. There didn't seem to be anything against girls wearing slacks or jeans (apparently in the past we would have been required to wear dresses) -- unless you wanted to use the library. The librarian wouldn't let you in unless you were skirted, and in cold weather that was stupid beyond words.

Fast forward 40 years -- yes, the girl in question was flipping the bird at her school by wearing a specifically male outfit, but the school was wrong to have a girls-in-dresses-only rule in 2006.

Hekate

[monarch]

124. Great smackdown!

Looks like OP gave up and went away.

Also want to point out that women who always wear high heels shorten their tendons and cannot wear flat shoes when they are older --and need to for comfort and safety.

[foreverdem]

125. Absolutely correct, monarch

About the high heels, I found out the hard way how true that is!

The whole dress code thing is ridiculous. These students are graduating, this is their accomplishment being celebrated, who the hell cares what they have on under their robes?

[Ms. Toad]

127. Yep

My grandmother had that problem.

[realisticphish]

131. at my HS graduation

in 2003, from a rural ohio school, we didn't really HAVE a dress code. They just said "wear something nice." I wore a polo shirt, khakis, and my band shoes. I don't get why you would require identical colors, since it's all under a robe :shrug:

[LostinVA]

162. "Wear something nice" is perfect

Because it also lets poorer students off the hook. Khakis and a nice shirt are perfect for male or female.

[realisticphish]

175. yeah

and it's a hell of a lot more comfortable than a dress shirt and dress slacks with a necktie in the middle of the sauna that is ohio in early spring.

[LostinVA]

177. Or hose for females... ugh

[realisticphish]

186. yeah

though, i will say...
I've worn a kilt in the summer before, and they are damn comfortable, even better than shorts

[LostinVA]

189. And, did you wear anything under it but your shoes?

My nephew wears a kilt to the Grandfather Mountain Highland Games every year... when it's about two million degrees in NC... and he's always comfortable. Since he's 15, he wears boxers under it.

[realisticphish]

201. nope

you gotta be careful, but as long as you watch when you sit down, you're good.

Though for highland games, that's different. Too much fast, spinning motion to be safe without boxers :)

[LostinVA]

240. Good man! A true Scot.

[noonwitch]

138. It's a public school, so I think the school is wrong

If it was a private school, that would be their problem. But if it's a public school, who cares what she wears under her cap as long as she's wearing something!

[dogday]

142. That is so stupid

The robe covers up whatever you are wearing so :wtf:

[Bridget Burke]

148. What a crock.

The story said she was a "model student." She was neat, clean & well-groomed. And the robe covers just about everything.

I wish Bobbie Spanbauer luck as she goes off to college & leaves that podunk town behind.

[LostinVA]

163. Not a Podunk town... but it is a major Freeper town

Fort Bragg, Pope AFB, etc.

[Gormy Cuss]

151. Sure, she was immature to make a 'statement' at graduation

but she's a teenager. The school administration made a bigger mistake by invoking a policy that barred their female students from wearing slacks. It's so back to the '50s, and the admission that half the girls never wear dresses to school is a clue that it was a priggish attempt to make the girls conform to someone's notion of lady-like behavior.

They're the experienced adults. They should know that this dress code was too gender-specific. It would have been far better to send the kids the message that it was recommended that girls wear dresses rather than insisting on it.

As an aside I'm guessing that you've never worn a dress with pantyhose on a summer day. Trust me, even men's pants are more comfortable than that.

[Captain Hilts]

152. It's not like she wore a rainbow wig or clown/mime make up.

What she wore would not have detracted from the ceremony had a stink not been made. Most folks probably would not even have noticed.

[Gormy Cuss]

155. True. Another sign the school admin handled it badly.

She did thumb her nose at them on graduation day, which is immature. As I said, the administration should know better, but she's a teen and is expected to retain some immaturity. If I were in her shoes, I probably would have done the same thing and would have had my mother's blessing.

[EFerrari]

153. They should have just issued burkas. That way, there'd be

no confusion.

[Gormy Cuss]

157. Graduation robes are halfway there..

Honestly, I was part of the generation that revolted against dress codes in the early 1970s.
I can't believe there are little Napoleons out there still trying to pull this crap.

[EFerrari]

159. If she could endure four years of what we call a high school education

they should be grateful she didn't show up in a straight jacket. lol

:)

[pnwmom]

197. And heels! Don't forget the heels!

Ouch.

[Gormy Cuss]

321. I absolutely, positively can never forget

heel! Torture vessels!

[JerseygirlCT]

173. Well you're wrong, and she's right and the code itself is the problem

Women should never be required to wear dresses. Those sort of restrictive codes are purposeless and discriminatory.

If they were concerned about the kids not dressing appropriately, then guidelines for professional attire might have been suggested.

Is this a public school? Then they're really off the mark.

And no one should be forced to go buy a dress because some idiot has decided that's what she has to wear. So those other young women you're so concerned about? Should have joined Spanbauer instead.

[LostinVA]

183. It is a public school... my sister went there in the 80's.

[JerseygirlCT]

184. Then they are far, far out of line. nt

[yasmina27]

181. Why all the controversy?

I mean, unless you are trying to break the rules and make a point to the establishment (which at times has real merit)? I didn't see whether the dress code specifically required dresses as opposed to skirts. If skirts were allowed, she could have easily worn gauchos with knee highs and flats. She would have been just as comfortable as in her every day pants.

I don't understand many people's opposition to dress codes. I am a middle school teacher, and part of my job, besides teaching kids my subject, is to teach them for real life. Is it stupid to mark a kid tardy if they're 10 seconds late after the bell? Maybe, but how many bosses will permit you to be chronically late to work w/o repercussions? Every year, at some point a discussion about the dress code comes up in class. All the kids say that it "stifles their creativity". Okay, then I ask what they're planning to do later in life. I always get answers like doctor, nurse, lawyer, firefighter, etc. So I ask them if those professions expect you to dress in a certain way? Whether you like it or not, unless you are self-employed - im many cases in your home - you will be expected to dress in a certain way. Workers in a grocery store have a standard type of dress expected, along with the incredibly fashionable <sarcasm> all-purpose smock.

As a teacher, I can not dress or talk on the job like I do in "real life". Yes, I chose this profession knowing this in advance and I don't have a problem with it. No one is "stifling my creativity" or any other such bullshit. Hell's bell's - during my first teaching job (in rural VA - thank god I got out of there!) one of my students was scandalized when he saw me buying beer at the grocery store outside of school time. I could have gotten fired if he or his parents had pushed the issue.

As a parent, I would LOVE dress codes for school - so much cheaper and easier to shop for. All the clothes manufacturers think the kids want to dress like Brittany Spears but the styles are verboten in schools (at least in every school I'm familiar with). I'll tell you, it is tough school shopping for girls when all you can find are mini mini skirts, cropped tops, and other inappropriate clothes. If the kids want to dress like that at home and at the mall - more power to them. But at school it can be a real distraction - particularly the cleavage showing. I had a boy (VERY smart) literally rendered speechless after checking out the cleavage of the girl sitting beside him. Middle school girls in particular are very into showing off their newly acquired equipment. I feel bad for the young attractive male teachers as they are often the target of these girls' affections. Fortunately in our school, none of them have been stupid enough to fall for it.

OK, I'm starting to ramble, so if you've made it this far, THANK YOU! I'll get off my stump now :) My final summarizing point is: I don't care how liberal you are, there are certain expectations that society expects of you, depending on your position. Deal with it and live with it!

[pnwmom]

199. Gauchos? Pray tell, where do you buy gauchos? And, I'm sorry to inform

you, but the dress code specifically required heels. Not flats. Flats are for boys. HEELS are for girls. Only girls have to torture their feet in order to attend a high school graduation.

As for your other point. Think about the dresses some of the girls at that graduation might have been wearing under their academic robes. You know teenage girls, so this should be easy. We're talking spaghetti straps, low cut V-necks, mini-mini skirts -- WHO KNOWS?

Compared to some of the outfits that were undoubtedly under those academic robes, I bet this girl showed a lot of -- well, you know -- DECORUM.

[yasmina27]

259. Gauchos are all the rage

here in western PA. You can buy them anywhere.

And you're right, who knows what was under the gowns of the other girls.

I don't have a problem with this girl wearing what she did. I'm just saying that at certain points in your life a particular type of dress is expected, and that is what your should wear.

[Bridget Burke]

206. She was a "model student" & showed up well groomed....

With makeup, even! She was not dressed indecently--no cleavage at all. And the gown covered almost everything, anyway.

She followed the rules of society well enough to stay in school & graduate--apparently, with good grades.

Priorities?

Edited to add: If gauchos are not OVER yet, they will be in about 15 minutes. Her pants sounded pretty classic.

[yasmina27]

260. I hope gauchos are over in 15 min.

here in western PA, they are still VERY popular. I almost gagged when I saw them the first time. Felt like I was in "Back to the Future"! To the seventies - along with killer high heels and clogs.

I agree that she was not at all dressed indecently. Neither are (most) doctors, nurses, teachers, etc., but there is a certain standard of dress expected of these persons. Same with graduates. Applause to her that she attained the necessary skills/grades in order to participate in graduation exercises with the rest of her class, she was still expected to conform with the standards clearly stated early enough for her to state her opinions.

Makeup and jewelry are just icing on the cake.

[Bridget Burke]

276. Female doctors can wear slacks & shirts.

Nobody checks as to whether the slacks are really "pants for men" or the shirts are really "blouses for women." Footwear varies widely--but is generally "sensible."

Of course, the "lab coat" is worn over clothes when seeing patients or meeting with colleagues. Scrubs are only worn when in the OR. (Or by surgeons who were "too busy" to change.)

Source: The Texas Medical Center. LOTS of hospitals here. Some pretty fine ones, too.

Edited to add: Nurses don't wear white dresses, white hose, white orthopedic shoes & caps any more.

[yasmina27]

297. Of course

But neither can they wear whatever they want.

Source: Personal experience. I come from a family of nurses who work for UPMC - the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center.

As a teacher, nor can I wear whatever I want.

[kiahzero]

298. This isn't about "wearing whatever you want"

That's a silly strawman. This is about illegal sexist dress codes.

[yasmina27]

300. Oh give me a break,

There are "dress codes" in all areas of society. And don't give me any crap about public schools. The girl knew about this before hand and that it was done the year before. Sexist? Could be. I'm not overly fond of dresses and high heels myself.

[kiahzero]

302. It's illegal

That's really all there is to it. Discrimination on the basis of sex is illegal. This is discrimination on the basis of sex. End of story. It doesn't matter if she knew the regulation existed beforehand, and it doesn't matter if it was done the year before. Federal law trumps a school regulation.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

304. "Sexist? Could be." How about sexist? Hell fucking yes.

[Bridget Burke]

310. Great priorities for an educator.

The young lady in question sounds as though she will have NO problems in her future life. She'll be glad to see that town in her rear view mirror.

[conflictgirl]

231. I don't object to dress codes

I understand your point that there are certain expectations society holds and appropriate times and places for certain behaviors and clothing. I'm not arguing that.

What I object to in this story - and what I think most other posters object to as well - is not the dress code, but the requirement that females wear dresses. There is no reason whatsoever that women should have to follow a different dress code than men, and that *is* very offensive.

[yasmina27]

Agreed

I do bus duty at school and during the winter months my wardrobe consists of long comfy pants and heavy socks, so I understand what you're saying about dresses. If someone told me I had to wear a dress everyday, I'd tell them to stick it.

But for one day, a special day, a requirement (which was required the previous year and announced plenty early) to wear a dress is not unreasonable.

[yasmina27]

264. Agreed

I do bus duty at school and during the winter months my wardrobe consists of long comfy pants and heavy socks, so I understand what you're saying about dresses. If someone told me I had to wear a dress everyday, I'd tell them to stick it.

But for one day, a special day, a requirement (which was required the previous year and announced plenty early) to wear a dress is not unreasonable.

[Quantess]

326. they already had to wear a gown

and probably a cap. At their own expense. They have to buy a dress and high heel shoes, too?

Just so they can be congratulated for their 4 years of achievement!

As an educator, how many times has the principal chided you for wearing slacks instead of a dress and high heels? At a school where I worked, the principal looked sharp-as-a-tack and wore pants about 80% of the time. The principal outdressed everyone.

[One_Life_To_Give]

306. How about being required to wear pants

Half the population doesn't have any real choice to ever not wear pants.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

307. If a guy truly didn't want to wear pants ever, he could find a way.

[One_Life_To_Give]

308. Same is true of a woman who didn't want to wear a dress.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

311. If you can't see the discrimination in this *public* school dress code...

I'm really happy I never had you as a teacher.

[kiahzero]

312. Society expects you to succumb to illegal discrimination? (n/t)

[557188]

185. Sexism

You're sexist pure and simple.

You want to treat boys and girls different, make them wear different clothes. It's not about personal freedom, but instead about social standards. Slaves to your crotch and to your social norms. Being a progressive is about changing social norms and progressing beyond outdated backwards ways. Freedom is just a word with no meaning to people like you.

Anyone, and I mean anyone, that tries to require people to do something based on their sex is not for freedom and is not a progressive.

[LostinVA]

191. So, are you against butch lesbians or pre-op transgendered persons?

Since it's indecorous and disturbing for a female to dress "like a man"?

[One_Life_To_Give]

192. Drop the makeup and a close cropped haircut would work

If she identifies as male and shows up wearing the "Male Uniform" . (No makeup, short hair, etc.) Then I don't see a reason to treat him as anything other than a male.

But trying for a cafeteria approach does not lead to an equal level of smartness in appearence.

Same goes for the boys. If you want to wear a dress and be treated like the girls at a formal event. Then you will wear the entire uniform. Dress with Pumps and stockings, makeup on face and nails, no facial hair, etc.

[pnwmom]

204. "Smartness in appearance"? Is this like "decorum"? We don't use

terms like this much in the great Pacific Northwest. THANK GOODNESS!

As I said before, I bet you anything the dresses that the other girls were wearing under their academic robes were seriously lacking in decorum. I bet there were spaghetti straps, and lowcut necklines, and itty bitty miniskirts and maybe even a bare midriff here and there.

And yet black slacks and a white top are supposed to be lacking in decorum. Sadly, I just don't get it. Happily, I'll never have to.

[One_Life_To_Give]

214. "Smartness" From a court case

I forget the name of the case and ciruit. But it was a court case about requiring stockings.
Judge ruled that although the standards for men and women were not identical. They each represented an equal level of smartness. Which justified that if men had to wear, Jacket, tie, short hair, clean shaven etc. Women being required to wear stockings under their skirt/dress represented an equal level of smartness and was acceptable.

[tbyg52]

229. Somebody needs to tell this judge...

...that it's not 1968. The whole problem is "separate but equal" dress codes, which I fought these many years ago when in high school. They were stupid then, and they're stupid now. I really do not care what people wear as long as I don't have to look at too much of their skin. (Of course, that's a judgement call also.... ;-> )

[pnwmom]

236. And did this judge rule that smartness requires women but not

men to smear their face with assorted colored pastes?

[One_Life_To_Give]

247. Different Judge I think

IIRC therre was a recent case in Nevada. Where it was ruled that a woman wearing makeup was equivalent to a man having his hair kept short. I beleive the plaintiff in the case is a dealer at one of the Casino's.

[LostinVA]

334. That argument had nothing to do with Title IX

Under Title IX, which is what a public high school adheres to, this dress code is illegal.

[lukasahero]

230. Wow, gender stereotype much?

"If you want to wear a dress and be treated like the girls at a formal event. Then you will wear the entire uniform. Dress with Pumps and stockings, makeup on face and nails, no facial hair, etc. "

Um, I AM a 'girl' and I don't do "pumps and stockings, makeup on face and nails". Interesting what determines whether or not one should be "treated like the girls" to you. I guess that make me a 'boy' in your opinion?

Where's that "shakes her head in wonder" emoticon when you need it?

[conflictgirl]

232. Yeah, what's up with that? All women have to wear the entire uniform?

I am female as well and I don't dress particularly masculine, but I don't go out of my way to wear the "entire uniform" for girls either. I haven't worn stockings in 5 years, I don't own heels because they hurt my feet, and I only sporadically wear makeup (and certainly not full makeup and nail polish).

What's up with this idea that there's some kind of full costume that each gender is supposed to wear??

[One_Life_To_Give]

257. We spend most of our lives in uniforms

From the day we are born we are put into uniforms. Pink for girls, blue for boys. We have been subjected to cultural conditioning our entire lives that Girls can wear dresses, skirts, recently we added pants, capri's. Men wear pants.

Look at the Oscars. Most of the women had dresses on of varying color, makeup, jewelry and heels. Paraded against a backdrop of guys in Black Pants, White shirt, Black Jacket, Black tie and Oxfords.

My comment aboput the boys wearing the Womens uniform was in regard to Cafeteria dressing. If you have a dresscode that specifies outfit A or outfit B. That does not mean it is acceptable to wear half of outfit A with half of outfit B. e.g. Just because it's hot out doesn't mean it's acceptable for a guuy to drop the pants in favor of a skirt without also wearing stockings if the "girls" dresscode for the day indicates a skirt and stockings.

[conflictgirl]

281. But wouldn't it be easier if the dress code was gender neutral?

The dress code didn't say anything about makeup or jewelry, so I don't think that was part of either "uniform." And women wearing pants and capris is certainly not recent, unless you consider the past 50 years "recent."

It seems like the problem would be solved if the rule applied across the board - white dress shirt, black pants or skirt, black dress shoes. No ridiculous requirement that women wear dresses or heels, but women who wanted to could do so. If most of the girls in that school don't wear dresses, as stated in the OP, then it's probably going to present a financial hardship to some families if girls are specifically required to wear dresses and heels. It's not 1950 anymore where most girls had such clothes. I didn't even have those clothes when I graduated 14 years ago.

Why is it so unreasonable to suggest that the same standard should apply to men and women?

[One_Life_To_Give]

286. Not unreasonable to have 1 dress code

Not unreasonable to have multiple choices within the dress code.

What may be unreasonable is to take some items from one choice and include with only some items from another choice. i.e. If the choice is a shirt and tie or skirt and blouse. Does not mean that you can select the pants and blouse.

And of course it must work both ways. With boys having every right to wear dresses and heels.

[conflictgirl]

313. What's next, including specific underwear as part of the dress code?

Nothing in the article states that the girl in question was actually wearing men's clothing. I have all of those items except the tie already and they are women's clothes. If I wear a bra underneath the clothes that fit the men's dress code, does that mean I'm taking a cafeteria approach to the dress code?

And I do think it should work both ways as well, I just don't see too many boys arguing for the right to wear dresses and heels. It is extremely rare for men to want to do things that are traditionally female, usually because the traditionally female roles are considered inferior. Women wearing pants is very societally acceptable, whereas it's definitely not acceptable for men to wear dresses. That's the thing I don't understand - it doesn't seem to me like the girl in question dressed in drag, she was just wearing clothes that in any other circumstance would be appropriate for women.

White dress shirt, black pants, black dress shoes - ideal for both genders in this case. Issues like makeup and jewelry have nothing to do with it. So if you think makeup or jewelry is part of the gendered dress code, if a guy showed up at the graduation with an earring, does that means he's taking a "cafeteria" approach to the dress code?

Furthermore, all of this is under their robes. It should have never become a big deal in the first place. To not even allow this student to watch the graduation ceremony tells me that the dress code is far more of a control thing in this case. Unless they required everyone in the audience to follow the same dress code, refusing to let her even watch from the audience was unjustifiable.

[One_Life_To_Give]

361. In this case maybe

While I believe the school to be wrong in completely excluding the girl in this case. I suspect the original motivation for this dress code was to have a traditional look/atmosphere to the event.

It depends on a lot of factors we don't have information on. A pageant of the graduating women proceeding in with 18 inches showing below the robes. Will loose some of the grandeur if the exposed 18 inches lacks a certain uniformity.

Ultimately you have a group of teachers working very hard to bring about a grand pageant. That all of the kids, parents, etc. will remember. All pulling their hair out trying to bring this event off the best they know how. Suddenly finding themselves with one girl who insists on her right to wear pants was a problem the teachers didn't need right then. And under that much stress it's easy to make a wrong decision.

My comments in regard to taking a cafeteria approach have to do with a number of issues, most dress codes will omit but affect appearence. Like if I have a low cut back to my gown, should I shave my back? What about my legs? Is it appropriate to wear my mothers pearls with a tux?

[pnwmom]

315. My kids' jazz band had a dress code. Any plain white tops, any plain

black bottoms (skirts or slacks). Any black dress shoes (not sneaks). Everyone always looked perfectly nice. I don't remember any boy turning up in a skirt, but technically one could. The fact that it would be allowed makes it that much less likely to happen, in my opinion. No one feels the need to make a big statement.

[pnwmom]

262. Do you think we've wandered onto a freeper board by accident?

[conflictgirl]

283. I don't know about freeper, but it definitely feels like a time warp

I thought it was bad enough that womens' rights to reproductive choice (including birth control) were being threatened - I had no idea we were getting to a point where women wearing pants was considered a radical idea. I thought that battle had been won at least 50 years ago. I mean, I knew Roe v. Wade was controversial, but women wearing pants?!?!

What's next, women won't be able to have jobs? Those "radical feminists" actually think that women should have rights! :o :o :o

[lukasahero]

309. I'm beginning to wonder,

Sheesh. :hi:

[One_Life_To_Give]

261. For a boy in Drag at a formal?

If all your male classmates are wearing Jacket and Tie. Someone born male probably shouldn't drop just the jacket and tie and say girls don't have to wear ties, therefore tonight I am a girl. As a guy doing that he needs to spend effort concistent with what most of the girls have done. And IMHO the "John Bolton Moustache" with the Chiffon gown isn't right for a formal night out.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

295. What if the person born male identified as female...

and wore a dress to the prom?

What if a lesbian or someone born female but identified as male wore a tux to the prom?

[One_Life_To_Give]

299. Exactly, as was the case in a recent thread

A T-Girl was stopped from entering her prom because she wore a dress. The school was wrong.

I don't see any problem with any T-Girl to wear or dress. Or a boy for thata matter if he spends the time to look good in it. But at a formal event I wouldn't want to see a guy throw on a dress without taking any due amount of care in his appearance. Just because he thought he could get some laughs.

As to the girls. First orientation doesn't matter were talking about presentation.
Treansmen can obviously wear the Tux. For the women you have to ask if it is being worn as a female or as a male. Since womens fashion allows a Tux.

A woman wearing a tux as a mana is fine but a woman wearing a tux as a woman may not always be. There may be occasions where it is not appropriate. A medeival ball perhaps, or other special case.

[kiahzero]

296. If Title IX and precedent were followed correctly

Yes, kicking a male wearing women's clothing out of a formal school occassion for improper dress would be illegal. Given current societal views towards that, however, a judge hearing the case would probably find some silly way of arguing that there was a relevant biological difference that would allow the discrimination to be legal.

[ElboRuum]

200. Actually, the three points you brought up...

Are needlessly specific. There's really only one:

It's a high-school graduation. I've heard of people wearing NO pants under their robes as a goof. Get over it. After 12+ years of indoctrination... er... education, you don't get to say what goes and doesn't anymore. Let them have their ceremony the way THEY want it, Mr. and Mrs. Administrator, and STFU about it. Take solace in the fact that that is the LAST you'll ever have to see of them.

[knitter4democracy]

233. I wore a tie to my h.s. graduation, and I'm female.

It was with a nice suitdress that I really liked, so that's what I wore. My mom found the pictures the other day, or I'd probably not remember.

Honestly, as long as she looked nice, and it sounds like she did, then the rest doesn't matter. Who wrote the dress code anyway? It sounds like they were just trying to make sure that the students looked nice but ended up going too far with it. Kente clothes are fancy enough, so that's fine, as are business dress and dresses with heels. I say, if the school doesn't have a dress code, then having one for graduation is weird.

[Name removed]

241. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[treestar]

284. The morans should have just let it go and not made a big deal

of it. Some people are just eccentric. Most people, especially that age, are total conformists.

There is no reason to always insist on everything. Civilization will not break down if one teen does not wear exactly what is instructed one year.

Too bad in this country we have to go to court over this stuff. What can we do about the large number of control freaks in our midst? How did they get that way? Why do they need so many rules and why do they flip out to the max if there is one violation of them, no matter how minor?

No wonder the courts are overcrowded.

[mnhtnbb]

287. Typical BS from control freak school administrators.

God forbid anyone should be allowed to express themselves differently.
I hope the ACLU takes them to court and knocks them down. Trouble is,
the Bushies have had 6 years to appoint judges and we all know what they think of women being allowed to think for themselves.

[spooky3]

289. The main issue to me is not whether the dress codes should be the

same, but where the school is being reasonable in the dress codes' specifications. I think it may be reasonable to say one cannot come barefoot to graduation, for example. But here the codes are extremely rigidly sex-typed in ways that bear no relationship to current thinking about appropriate dress for girls (women) vs. boys (men). It is appropriate for girls to wear dark pantsuits, socks and flat shoes to graduations; there are probably thousands of schools where girls do just that.

[LostinVA]

335. Good post n/t

[kevinbgoode]

293. Graduation is a damned ceremony, not a professional event

and the ceremony is supposed to celebrate the accomplishments of the students, not the fashion preferences of some Administration. Weren't they wearing caps and gowns anyway?

Graduation means just THAT - she's done with the school. Their 'dress" code is irrelevant, in my opinion.

I'm a radical about this, though. The students should have just boycotted the stupid, and usually boring, ceremony. She still would be a graduate anyway.

[pnwmom]

318. Bobbie says: "I don't even know how to walk in heels"

Why are none of the administration's defenders here responding to the worst part of the dress code -- the shoes with heels?
Could it be because forcing girls' feet into heeled, crunchy-toed shoes is TRULY INDEFENSIBLE?

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=local&id=4248069

The school's principal says girls must wear dresses. But Bobbie Spanbauer says candidly that she likes to dress like a boy.

"I asked them what the problem was, because I'm fully dressed," Spanbauer said. "They said I'm a girl, so I have to wear a dress."

SNIP

"I've never worn a dress and I don't know how to walk in heels, and we're supposed to wear heels," she said. "I'm not going to learn overnight how to walk in heels."

"In the end, Spanbauer wore a pair of black pants and dress shoes. Not only was she barred from walking across the stage, Spanbauer also was kicked out of the building and not allowed to watch the commencement."

[pnwmom]

320. Here's a closeup photo and an article addressing legal issues:

http://www.fayettevillenc.com/article?id=234892

SNIP

Katherine Lewis Parker, an ACLU lawyer who is representing Spanbauer, said her organization could file suit to change school policy or to seek money for damages. She argues that students have the same rights at graduation as they do in classrooms. She calls Douglas Byrd’s actions “pure gender discrimination.”

“I think the reason there is so little case law on this particular issue is that this issue was dealt with 40 years ago,” she said. “It’s absurd that this kind of issue is coming up in 2006.

“I never heard from any of the school officials any rational basis, let alone a legitimate government purpose, of forcing these young women to wear a dress or skirt,” Parker said. “No reason was even articulated to me other than, ‘This is the rule and it’s not going to change.’”

SNIP

OTOH, an "appellate defender" said that "Douglas Byrd could argue that its dress code isn’t arbitrary, that formality requires traditional clothing. . ." But he acknowledged that women often wear pants on formal occasions, and he added “(Spanbauer) has a decent argument that if the concern is dignity, she can be just as dignified as a boy can be in slacks.”

[pnwmom]

322. The school was contacted by the ACLU beforehand, but barred her anyway

When Bobbie turned up at the dress rehearsal on Monday wearing the whole outfit, they told her she would be barred if she wore the outfit on Wednesday. On Tuesday, the ACLU contacted school officials on her behalf, but they barred her from the Wednesday ceremony anyway. They also barred the local news from entering, even though the local news has always in the past covered graduations.

http://www.fayettevillenc.com/article?id=234756

Bobbie’s mother contacted the American Civil Liberties Union of North Carolina on Tuesday afternoon. Staff Attorney Katherine Lewis Parker sent a letter via fax on Tuesday evening to Harrison and Warner stating that requiring a female student to wear a dress constitutes discrimination.

“We believe it’s unfair gender discrimination based on outdated notions of appropriate attire for young women,” Parker said in an interview. She said she would follow up with the superintendent today.

The ACLU has taken on similar cases around the country. In 2002, a Florida high school agreed to allow women to wear slacks to graduation after receiving a letter from a lawyer who said that requiring a dress or skirt for women violates their right to privacy, liberty and First Amendment protections.

In 2004, a high school in Newport News, Va., allowed women to graduate in pants after receiving a similar letter.

[RoyGBiv]

325. This is idiotic...

Of course I feel the whole idea of "men's" and "women's" clothing is idiotic. That's not to say I don't personally conform to norms because I do, but I constantly ask myself why I have allowed myself to believe a suit and a tie is actually comfortable. It isn't, and I hate them.

It's fucking fabric, people. Do you really give a shit? If so, well, okay then. I have more important things to worry about.

[2bfree]

327. Why would anyone care?

So long as she was dressed nicely it shouldn't matter.

[Rodger Dodger]

328. Big deal

Who really gives a damn! If you do I suggest you get a life. What's happening to individual freedoms in this country any why?

[Odin2005]

329. Requiring women to wear dresses and high heals is sexist.

I think making women wear high heels is an even bigger deal then manditory dresses, since the former is a sexist relic back when "proper" women wore such uncomfortable clothing to prove that thier only purpose was to be an ornament for thier husbands. The posters saying that this isn't a big deal are forgetting the sybolic nature of such codes, they tell clearly how people in that Southern town think of women.

[pnwmom]

330. Next thing we know, they'll be back to requiring girdles and stockings

to go with the heels.

[readmoreoften]

331. Decorum? So Butch lesbians have no decorum.

Go to hell. My partner went to her graduation in a suit and was escorted from a men's store by security for trying to buy one. Wearing a dress would've been more damaging to this girl than wearing a suit if she is butch or trans.

Sheesh.

[LostinVA]

336. The point I've made in several posts

Although I'm not butch, some of my friends have been/are and would have been damaged, humiliated, etc. having to dre3ss like this. I would have hated dressing like this, but it would not have damaged my psyche, like it would have damaged your partner's.

But, when I said something like this up thread, I was told I sterotype... glad to know I'm some homophone lesbian. Sheesh. Give me a frigging break.

[tammywammy]

354. When I graduated in 99

I don't think they said girls had to wear a skirt or dress.

A few girls in my class wouldn't be caught dead wearing a skirt or dress. I think what they said was that for girls, not to wear anything that went below the hem of the gown. I'm sure the few girls I'm thinking about, wore nice khaki shorts, but definitely not a skirt or dress.

At least we weren't required to wear hose or heels. (I did wear a skirt and heels though).

[Quantess]

359. In 89

we wore whatever we wanted. I had this thing about color coordination, actually I still really like to color coordinate my outfits, so I wore a white dress and white high heels under my white robe. Certainly no one had to. Some people wore jeans.

So ya see, I wore a dress and high heels to my graduation, but I fully believe this girl should not be forced to!

[Eric J in MN]

356. It's a violation of her rights for a public school to punish her for

not wearing a dress.

Fashion is part of free speech, protected by the First Amendment.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

358. Oddly enough...

legally, the First Amendment is generally ruled to not apply in public school settings.

Fortunately, the school is still breaking the law by violating Title IX.

[kiahzero]

365. Not true.

The First Amendment does cover public school... see Tinker v. Des Moines. The school has the right to ensure that the speech is not disruptive, but there is no way to argue that the student was being disruptive by wearing the exact same thing that 50% of the other students were wearing.

[depakid]

369. That case doesn't apply south of the Mason Dixon line

Nor do the cases forbidding denominational Christian prayer....

[Captain Hilts]

362. This reminds me of the High School graduation photograph debate

That one girl didn't want to wear the drapey thing for the photograph and chose the tux thingie.

She wasn't gay, she just didn't want to wear that bare-chested drape-thing. And I don't blame her. I'm so glad my high school didn't force us to get photographed like that.

A lot of these debates are based on the premise that the only difference between men's and women's clothes is that one is for one sex and the other for the other sex. But women's clothes are uncomfortable, more expensive than men's, more expensive than men's to get cleaned , and, sometimes by design, make you feel more vulnerable. And we've barely touched on the sexual messages women's clothes are designed to generate.

My boyfriend once told me in reference to car repair "if you can get the same product intended for boats, buy the one for boats because they have higher quality standards." Clothes are the same way. If you can buy it in the men's department, by all means do so.

[mykpart]

367. Couple of questions:

Didn't they have caps and gowns? Why not? I know people who wore nothing but a slip under their gown, because graduation was outside & it was hot. Nobody knew what was under the gown, as long as the color didn't bleed thru.

Does she normally dress in men's clothes? I agree with the poster who said if she had shown up in women's dress slacks and black pumps, she might have gotten away with it.

Dress shoes does not necessarily mean heels. Don't know what the school means, but the article simply said "dress shoes with closed heel and toe."

I sympathize with this girl, but in the 60s civil disobedience meant being willing to accept the consequences of your actions. So we went to jail if someone called the cops. We didn't resist, but we didn't help, either. (Let your body go limp.) So if she did this to make a point, good for her, but she must realize that she has to be adult enough to accept the consequences. Think about how many Black people went to jail just for sitting down at a lunch counter.