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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 12:56 PM
Original message
This Just In: Zarqawi's death meaningless
Those who fight against the US occupation, and against other sects in Iraq, do not do so because Zarqawi told them to.

The fighting and dying will continue. The civil war will expand. All this means, perhaps, is that the violence will be even more chaotic and disorganized.

Remember, catching Saddam Hussein was a "turning point," too. Fat lot of good it did.

Also, PS, there would never ever ever ever have been an "Al Qaeda in Iraq" had we not invaded.

Basically, we killed our own straw man today.

We'll find another one tomorrow.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. If we could just get someone to say that on TEE VEE.
Agreed 100%.

This just means overtime for the guys at psy-ops that now have to erect another strawman for us to beat down.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Nick Berg's dad has been saying it rather
Edited on Thu Jun-08-06 01:00 PM by malaise
well and he has on his anti-war Tee shirt. They are truly pissed that he does not support killing and vengeance.

Edit add.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Well good for him. I haven't been watching much today.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
35. Thank you, Michael Berg!
One of the true heroes!
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Kikosexy2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Another...
Zarqawi tape will air in Nov...wait a minute isn't he dead?...like years ago dead?..
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. You would think so given how swollen his corpse is!
Edited on Thu Jun-08-06 01:15 PM by Juniperx
Did you see the picture? Dead and bloated... not smelling like a rose, I'm sure.

Seems it would take a lot longer than a day for a corpse to bloat like that.
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central scrutinizer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. It has been well over 100 degrees F in Iraq
But, did they check for freezer burn - he may have been in the cooler for months waiting for the pys-op experts to pump him up into the biggest, baddest guy since Josef Stalin and when Bushco needs a bump in his poll numbers.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Even at that temperature, it would take several days
Damn... where is that forensics site when I need it?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. Obviously.
Not to mention people you thought were gone have a nasty habit of showing up again.

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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. I'm a little old and a little slow
but I don't quite understand your post.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I'm saying we haven't heard the last of Zarqawi.
Whether he's dead or not.
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Thanks
I think that applies to reagan as well. If bush needs him they'll have another memorial service before the next election spending millions of tax dollars in his honor.
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warrens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
3. Don't worry...
We'll clean up those other 29,993 terraists tomorrow. It'll be a piece of cake now that their Jordanian hero is gone.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
4. So it's bad news then? (nt)
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. It's good news. However in the big picture, it's really nothing.
In 6 months the average American will not even remember that name.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. No. It's NOT news
Another dead person in a war that's not going to end anytime soon.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. For not news it sure is generating a lot of threads on here :) (nt)
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #29
40. So does Natalie Holloway
As I suggested, Its NOT news. Its propaganda

:-)
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
48. No, it's a good STORY.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
7. Iraq = Hornet's Nest
And Bush just keeps swinging that baseball bat. He hit the nest this time, and the hornets are all the more furious. Stay the course!

Auditions for the new Boogieman will begin at noon. Bring your tap shoes.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
10. Agreed. It's meaningless
to the truth and the big picture

but it serves the purpose of Bush and his continuing lies about the Iraqi invasion
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
12. Morning Will, just posted the same thing with a story link
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307 MMS Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
14. OBL
That's right, Will. Time to resurrect Osama now that #2 has supposedly been dispensed with. Or will we manufacture a completely new one?! I hear they're auditioning. Oops, I forgot about Iran. Shame on me. Guess the parts already taken.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
15. They brought the nave's head in on a platter didn't they?
Or at least that framed portrait was the next best thing.
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
16. Your comment: "Basically, we killed our own straw man today"
Ain't that the truth. Why the hell didn't Rummy bomb at least his camp in the Kurdish area in the beginning of the Shock & Awe? That was the "only" Al Quida (sp?) known for sure to be in Iraq. It appears that Rummy didn't really think the guy and his groopies were a threat at that time. Go figure. Oh, we were lied to and that's the bottom line. Our history books will be full of how ineffective bush's opponents were in getting the truth out to the people. That is if we still have a free press.
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:04 PM
Original message
Thank you
This has been my only thought all day. As soon as I saw the headline I thought, "So? And this changes what exactly?"

It's meaningless and an obvious propaganda distraction bullshit media circle jerk.
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
17. Thank you
This has been my only thought all day. As soon as I saw the headline I thought, "So? And this changes what exactly?"

It's meaningless and an obvious propaganda distraction bullshit media circle jerk.
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SodoffBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
19. I agree w/everything you just said.
Without a bad guy to dangle before a frightened American public, Bush's soap opera is in the shitter. With his ratings down so low, he had to have a dramatic finish to his current bad guy poster boy.

Now, the hunt for a new bad guy. There always has to be a replacement.
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Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
21. Kicked and Recommended
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paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
23. We turned that corner....Again. Mission Accomplished ... Again
Insurgency is in its Last Throes...Again. Meanwhile the carnage and bloodshed continue unabated.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #23
43. Didn't we turn this corner before?
Aren't we going in circles now?


:eyes:



I'm so sick of this idiot I could spit thorns.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
24. 9am this morning, MSRNC was already wondering whos the next guy
They got a neverending string of boogiemen to throw out there. Gotta stay in Iraq you know, business is just too good.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Thay should have an "Iraqi Idol" competition
You could be next boogieman in Iraq! Worried about getting killed? No problem! If things get too hot, we'll put you up in your very own condo in Pakistan next to A.Q. Khan and OBL. They're quiet and they keep their lawns and gardens neat and tidy.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #26
39. OBL's niece is a quasi-talent with video experience
...maybe she can overcome Simon's prediction:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,915388,00.html
"Simon Cowell, the Pop Idol judged renowned for his put-downs said: 'There's only one worse surname you could have to launch a pop career - and that's Hitler."



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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
25. how does that saying go about "great minds"?
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Yup. its all gone to hell .meaningless.. otherwise, the Troops be coming
home
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survivor999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
30. Osama capture or killing coming up
Edited on Thu Jun-08-06 01:51 PM by survivor999
Stay tuned... :)
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SoonerPride Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Dream On
They will never go after Bin Laden.

In fact he's probably still on the CIA payroll.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. October Surprise
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Roon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
32. Capturing Saddam was a turning point
and killing his sons was another one. Nothing is going to change, the civil war rages on.
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zippy890 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
33. its meaningful in the sense that
it allows bush & RWers the opportunity to use
words like 'victory' and 'success in the global war on terra'

as a propoganda tool to justify US military presence over there.

but like you say, the civil war will get worse, and others
will take zarqawi's place.

Time to get the troops out of there, now
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populistdriven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
37. sadly, bush is just as much of a straw man
Edited on Thu Jun-08-06 01:59 PM by bushmeat
to the repukes and they are ready and able to sacrifice him if necessary, his impeachment would be meaningless.

The entire criminal right needs to burn.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
38. We'll probably learn that the death of Z was needed for our soldiers.
For morale building.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
41. This is true. Saddam would have to have bigger effect than this
guy. It can't make any larger "difference" than catching Saddam, or even getting Saddam's two sons. At least those individuals specifically can be identified with Iraq.

While Al Qaeda is not going to disappear from Iraq just because Al Z. is dead. By now it's gotten bigger than that.



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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
42. This is for political use by the RW
for a few reasons, to give Bush a Bounce in the polls, and granted it will be a "dead cat" bounce, and to drive the Haditha WAR CRIMES off the front page.. another use will be for the right wing to scream "We killed the equivalent of HITLER" with the MSM "repeater stations" pushing it endlessly right up to and including the midterm elections..

Maybe some of the Gov's and others who had "scheduling conflicts" when Bush showed up in their state or district, will now stand on the same stage with Bush and hang onto his coat tails..

But in reality these things have a way of not working out like the right wants them to, they gang that can't shoot straight will sound like they are beating a dead horse.

Bush and Co (Rove) are probably screaming, "Goddamit, I said IN OCTOBER!!"

"But we kept him on ice as long as we could!"

Any terror groups use CELLS, which means if you cut off the head of one (like a Hydra) they just grow more or switch to another Cell..

Much noise and fury signifying nothing. The best WE could do as NEW MEDIA right now is to LOCKSTEP with the Many LINKS that show that the MSM is NOT to be trusted as they reported at least if not more than 4 times that Zaqwari (sp), was DEADER than a DOORNAIL..
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
44. Not meaningless, but will ultimately just be a footnote
This proves that the US military is still exceptional at making a plan and executing it. If this were a conventional war, and Zarqawi were a conventional leader, this would be important. And it probably will change the nature of the uprising in Iraq.

But it is not going to stop the uprising.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
45. PS...It could be significant in one important way
If you were a right-winger looking for the perfect moment to "declare victory" and start to get the US out of Iraq, this is about as good a chance as you are going to get.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
46. Kick
:kick:
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
47. Yep...You got it!
Good to see you back posting on DU. You were missed.
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
49. Not completely meaningless.
From: http://www.medialens.org/board

Burying embarrassing news, the Zarqawi way?

There should be mass celebration today in Iraq, and in the press, and by mongers everywhere, for today was the day that Iraq's new Prime Minister Nouri Maliki finally filled the three vacant ministerial posts in his new, and now complete, government. By sheer coincidence this heartening story has been blasted off the front page by the announcement, on the same day, of the killing of the terrorist Zarqawi, which took place yesterday.

Then again, looking at the newly appointed ministers, perhaps it wasn't so unfortunate:

Defense Minister
Abdul Qadir Obeidi - one of Saddam Hussein's generals

Interior Minister
Jawad al-Bulani, an aide to the Governing Council from the Iraqi Hizbollah party

National Security Minister
Shirwan Waili - a former military officer under Saddam Hussein


*****

Here's how the prospects of appointing these guys looked two days ago: http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/editorial/14756538.htm

The delay in forming this government has sparked the worst chaos in Baghdad since Saddam Hussein fell. So delegates were eager for Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to keep his pledge to name the ministers of interior and defense. Those ministers are essential to restoring some security to Iraq. Suddenly a buzz rippled through the hall. The session had been canceled. Squabbles among fellow Shiites over who should get the ministries had prevented Maliki from keeping his promise. That day painted a stark picture of the challenges confronting this national unity government, on which Iraqi and U.S. hopes hang. Rather than bring Iraqis together, this government has reflected Iraq's fragmentation. The situation may be salvaged, but it will take determined leadership from a handful of key Iraqi politicians, as well as from the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, Zalmay Khalilzad.

Maliki tried from the start to act like a leader. He promised a new plan to secure Baghdad and flew to the key oil city of Basra to try to halt wars between Shiite militias and gangs. He made the pledge to name the ministers. But Iraq's new constitution keeps the prime minister impossibly weak - a reaction to the Hussein dictatorship. And the Iraqi political culture ties him in knots.

...

This system has made many Iraqis sour on democracy quickly. They are hungry for strong leadership. Over and over, I've heard Iraqis say Hussein could have restored order in two weeks. This is why it is so crucial for Maliki to be able to act as a national leader who stands above the interests of sectarian parties. ... It is unclear how or if that can be done. But the prospects for Iraq and for U.S. troop withdrawals depend on whether Maliki can lead.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
50. We'll find another one as the American
Edited on Fri Jun-09-06 07:05 AM by rosesaylavee
public is as used to this story as one they watch on the tee and vee every week. Season ender offs the 'bad guy' but never fear, the 'writer' will add another antagonist for the next season. Its all about ratings folks.

And, what was that catch phrase in 'Network'?...

:popcorn:
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
51. Thank-you for saying it so well.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
52. Bullshit, as indicated by the body of your post.
w.p.: "All this means, perhaps, is that the violence will be even more chaotic and disorganized."

It definitely means something and to pretend it doesn't is to bury ones head in the sand. The discussion about what it means shouldn't be thwarted.

It's irresponsible to use oversimplified headlines.
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Kostafarian Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. agreed
Even if all it means is the US will have to think longer and harder before the next time they resurrect him to take credit for some heinous act in Iraq, it certainly means something.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. It's fun to be in the minority, isn't it?
Especially when we know we're correct. ;)
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #52
56. It Was Obvious To Me That He Meant Meaningless Towards Reducing Violence
in the region. I'm not sure he needed to spell it out word for word what the spirit of the post was. I think it was evident to most that he was referencing the concept that killing the so-called al qaeda in iraq leader will have zero effect on reducing the bombings, attacks and sect violence within Iraq or may serve to increase it. Therefore it is meaningless in the overall mission of a peaceful iraq, as his death within itself is rather insignificant in the overall picture of why they're fighting and killing to begin with.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. Right, and I'm saying it's a shitty headline that
encourages ignorance for the sake of sensationalism.

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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. If You Say So. I Say The Headline Is Perfectly Fine In Its Context.
I also fail to see how a simple headline on a message board with appropriate context within is encouraging ignorance. I find that declaration to be quite extreme.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. I'm hard on journalists and shitty headlines, what can I say? edit:
Edited on Fri Jun-09-06 11:26 AM by greyl
Take a look at the kneejerk replies to the OP, and you may notice some evidence that the resulting discussion about what zarqawi's death means is sparse. /edit
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. This Was A Post On A Message Board, Not A Front Page Article In The NYT.
Methinks you're being just a tadddddddd overdramatic here. :rofl:
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #60
62. It involved a journalist and a headline.
I see nothing wrong with holding DUers to high standards, do you?
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #62
68. No, It Involved A DU Poster And A Headline.
And that headline was fine when related to the context within it.

And I don't view your 'bullshit' post as holding anyone to a higher standard. I view it as a nitpicky attention wanting reply that screams out "hey, look at me, I'm posting something against the great Will Pitt!"

Sorry.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #68
74. You're saying he's not a journalist? Okayyy. nt
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #74
79. I'm Saying He Wasn't Writing An Article Nor Working In The Capacity Of A
Edited on Fri Jun-09-06 11:50 AM by OPERATIONMINDCRIME
journalist at the time. I'm sorry that concept was lost on you.

This thread, was just a thread by a fellow DU'er, regardless of what that DU'er does for a living.

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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #79
82. Truth is, I think it's fair to expect all of us here to write carefully.
Especially concerning a topic with so much tinfoil flying around. How's the discussion about what it means going?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #74
81. This
is why I don't post very often here anymore.

I used to be able to just be a DUer, posting as I pleased without getting henpecked like this.

So thanks for reconfirming why it's a good idea for me to steer clear of here more often than not.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #81
85. It's nothing personal at all.
The headline contradicted the body of the post and I said so. I would have done it for anybody here. ;)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #81
87. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #87
90. We'll be glad to edit YOUR articles before publication.
Ready & waiting!

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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #59
65. "Shitty headlines"?
You mean headlines smeared with feces?
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #57
66. Ignorance needs no encouragement.
It will thrive, no matter how cautious the headline.

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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #66
89. That means the encouragement is a waste of time, right? ;) nt
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. The ignorant will revel in their ignorance....
No matter what the rest of us do.

Or maybe they're just pretending to be dense?

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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #91
94. Yes, I'm sure there's at least some pretending going on. ;) nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #56
61. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #61
63. Whether pitt wants to actually discuss it is yet to be seen. nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #63
70. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. Post 69
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Kostafarian Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #71
75. thank you
sorry for jumping the gun, post edited for accuracy
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #70
83. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #61
67. Oh The Melodrama.
Give me a damn break. I don't give a shit if it was Will who posted it or Joe Friggin Shmoe. :eyes:

Now if you can take from that post that he was defending the US showing pictures of him dead well then I think you have reading comprehension troubles, with all due respect.

It was a simple post, a simple sentiment, and a pretty damn clear message. I'll take a moment to spell out the message of this thread to you: The death of Zarqawi is meaningless in the overall picture of violence in Iraq, as it won't do a thing to squelch it. There. I hope you understand that more readily now, as that is quite simply the only message that was being brought forth by the OP. If you want to read into it more than that, then it is probably due more to something within you that wants to find something to nitpick in Will's posts, as opposed to the actual meaning of the post itself, in my opinion.


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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #52
69. OMG!!111 LOOK!!111
Better?

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is dead. We've turned a corner in Iraq. Again.

We turned a corner back in 2003, or so we were told, with the capture of former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. "For the Ba'athist holdouts largely responsible for the current violence," said George W. Bush in formal remarks after Hussein's capture, "there will be no return to the corrupt power and privilege they once held. For the vast majority of Iraqi citizens who wish to live as free men and women, this event brings further assurance that the torture chambers and the secret police are gone forever."

That was three long years ago, and despite all the triumphalist crowing after Hussein's capture, nothing has changed. Indeed, matters are far worse now than when they put the bag on him in 2003. Empty elections have been held since then, in which most of the candidates were anonymous, because they feared assassination. The corrupt power and privilege once held by Hussein's people has been deftly transferred to hand-picked Iraqi leaders like Ahmad Chalabi, who cower behind bunkered walls while the nation they supposedly lead tears at itself, and to petroleum corporations like Halliburton that steal with both hands.

As for the torture chambers and secret police...well...the Bush administration set those up a while ago. The horrors of Abu Ghraib, and the secret "renditions" of prisoners, are perfectly legal, you see. The Attorney General says so.

Now that Zarqawi is dead - again - many would have us believe this is a stirring victory. To be sure, the Shi'ite civilians massacred by Zarqawi can take comfort that his attacks have been brought to an end. But to see this as an end to the violence is to buy into a distinctly American view of the Iraq occupation, a view that would have us believe that it is one villain masterminding all the carnage.

This simply isn't true.

A report from the UK Telegraph last year quoted a number of anonymous intelligence sources who stated, flatly, that Zarqawi was not the all-encompassing boogeyman he was portrayed to be. "We were basically paying up to $10,000 a time to opportunists, criminals and chancers who passed off fiction and supposition about Zarqawi as cast-iron fact, making him out as the linchpin of just about every attack in Iraq," said one source in the report. "Back home this stuff was gratefully received and formed the basis of policy decisions. We needed a villain, someone identifiable for the public to latch on to, and we got one."

Said another source in the report, "From the information we have gathered, we have to conclude that Zarqawi is more myth than man. He isn't in the caliber of what many politicians want to believe he is."

More recently, on April 10, 2006, the Washington Post ran a detailed article titled "Military Plays Up Role of Zarqawi." The opening paragraph reads, "The U.S. military is conducting a propaganda campaign to magnify the role of the leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq, according to internal military documents and officers familiar with the program. The effort has raised his profile in a way that some military intelligence officials believe may have overstated his importance and helped the Bush administration tie the war to the organization responsible for the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks."

"One internal briefing, produced by the U.S. military headquarters in Iraq," continued the Post piece, "said that (Brig. Gen. Mark) Kimmitt had concluded that, 'The Zarqawi PSYOP program is the most successful information campaign to date.'"

Hm.

Our leaders would love us to believe that what is happening in Iraq is black-and-white, an issue of evil-doers attempting to shatter the hopes of democracy. Unfortunately, too many Americans buy into this Etch-a-Sketch view of our policies and practices there. The reality behind the bloodshed is far more discouraging, and hued with many shades of gray.

Those who fight and kill in Iraq did not do so because Zarqawi ordered them to. They fight because they are Sunnis with a generational hatred for Shi'ites, or because they are Shi'ites with a generational hatred for Sunnis, or because they are Kurds defending their turf, or because they don't want Iran running their country, or because they are defending their neighborhood, or because they are settling old grudges, or because they are opportunistic criminals looking to make a buck. In many instances, those who fight and kill in Iraq do so because they absolutely will not tolerate an occupying force under any circumstances.

The death of Zarqawi will not change any of this. The violence will continue, because the violence has nothing to do with him. He was a symptom, not a cause. Think of Iraq as a cancer patient. By killing Zarqawi, we have indeed cut out one tumor. But the cancer cells have metastasized, and have spread, and there will be a dozen more tumors to replace the one that has been removed. At the end of the day, the occupation itself is the cancer, and until it is removed, the tumors will continue to fester and grow.

Zarqawi does share one distinct similarity with Saddam Hussein. Like Hussein, Zarqawi would never have existed in Iraq without American assistance. There was absolutely no al Qaeda influence whatsoever in Iraq before the invasion and occupation. It was the invasion and occupation that created Zarqawi. He was our Frankenstein monster, and would not have come to exist in Iraq had we not given him life and limb and cause.

Hussein was also an American creation, bolstered and sustained for years because he stood against post-Revolution Iran. We armed him, we funded him, we trained his people. His existence was due to our assistance. He was also our monster, and for too many years, he served our purposes and went unmolested.

That's how it goes over there, it seems. We've turned another corner. Turn enough corners and, eventually, you wind up going in a circle.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #69
72. Who said it's an end to the violence?
I haven't even heard any right-wingers saying that.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #72
76. Then you weren't watching CNN and MSNBC yesterday
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #76
78. No, I wasn't. Who said it's "an end to the violence"?
Edited on Fri Jun-09-06 11:50 AM by greyl
and did they give an expected date for bringing home the troops in the next breath? (because the violence is over?)
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. A dozen talking heads
described it as a "turning point," the "beginning of the end of the carnage," and a "great victory." The inference was totally clear. Hell, one CNN weenie compared Zarqawi to Hitler.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. 2 of those 3 examples don't equal "an end to the violence".
And even the one that's close "beginning of the end of the carnage" doesn't equal it.
Furthermore, I never said anything close to it.

For the record, I think too many here react to their prediction of right-wing spin to the point that the spin doesn't even need to take place. In this case, saying the death is meaningless is a preemptive attack on their strawman. At the extreme, you may have noticed some weenies saying that he isn't even dead.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #80
86. Yes, I even saw John McCain on MSNBC compare Zarqawi to Hitler.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #52
73. You Cant be Seriessssss!!!111111!!!!! (nt)
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
55. No kidding. We've killed all our straw men, Uday, Kusay, now Zarqawi
and probably Saddam will be hung once the trial is over. So why are we still there? Mission accomplished, Mr. pResident. Bring them home and be sure to build lots of psychiatric wings onto VA hospitals because we are going to need them.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #55
88. Don't worry, each will be replaced by a thousand others.
The so-called terrorists are fighting an asymmetrical war, but Rumsferatu&Co. are still using Cold War strategy. :eyes:


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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #88
92. So killing Osama doesn't matter, either?
If/when we get Osama bin Hidin' then a hundred terrorists are going to take his place, too. Right?

Maybe that's why * isn't even trying anymore.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. Strawman alert!!!

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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. "Straw man" Translation: "I can't answer the question."
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
64. Fully Agree
I believe his death is apropos of nothing. His impact is overstated, and the al qaeda segment of the insurgency is a small proportion of the whole.

His death will be a blip on the radar. Nothing more.
The Professor
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
77. Yep.
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