If you think Chavez is a horrible dictator that abuses the citizens of

[Greyhound]

Venezuela, suppresses the media, and wants to bring communism to Central America, watch this video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144

If you don't have an hour and a quarter to watch the whole fascinating video, jump to 43:00 and just watch the next 5 minutes.

Then, take a minute to review the events that have transpired here in the last 6 years.

[LoZoccolo]

1. Yes, because there was a coup attempt...

...that means he didn't do anything he's accused of.

But because Chavez had previously staged a coup, none of his enemies did what they were accused of either.

[Greyhound]

3. I take it you didn't watch even the 5 minutes where the new regime

went on the air, congratulating themselves, and laying out the whole plot.

I'm sure we would all be much better off living under the tender mercies of the corporate elite.

Thanks for your input. :eyes:

[Viva_La_Revolution]

5. You mean the part where they dissolved the National Assembly,

dissolved the Supreme Court, fired the Attorney General etc?

Or maybe the part where the people rioted in streets for Chavez
"we want Chavez, not a dictatorship!"

maybe that was the part he missed?

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

13. Don't ever accuse me of being a FReeper again. n/t

[w4rma]

20. I searched for the word "freeper" in the previous posts and couldn't find

it. They weren't edited either. I think you're protesting to much.

[LoZoccolo]

21. Don't you do it either. Respect the moderators' decision. n/t

[LoZoccolo]

11. Chavez did the same thing with the Enabling Act.

Ruling by decree for a year is the same thing.

[LoZoccolo]

10. Sure I did.

"Good morning, we have a new President" "The plan was to get people on the street" etcetera.

What does that have to do with the bold-face fallacy that because Chavez faced a coup attempt, that he couldn't possibly have abused his power himself?

It is posts like yours that make me really doubt Chavez. Why would people have to use tactics like this to argue in favor of him if he's so great?

[Greyhound]

15. Because of the endless shitstorm of misinformation that is consistently

broadcast here, without any support, by folks that refuse to come clean about their own prejudices. Every time anything positive is posted about what is happening in Venezuela, all of the usual suspects come out to re-iterate the baseless accusations and oft debunked myths, all without stating why.

Are you familiar with the Bard's phrase, "The(y) doth protest too much, methinks"?

[LoZoccolo]

17. Is this argument anything like...

...the one that goes "the media never reports anything good that's happening in Iraq"? Does that justify the war there?

[Greyhound]

23. ??

[LoZoccolo]

25. .

Your post:

Every time anything positive is posted about what is happening in Venezuela, all of the usual suspects come out to re-iterate the baseless accusations and oft debunked myths, all without stating why.

Right-wing chain letter about Iraq:

As I head off to Baghdad for the final weeks of my stay in Iraq, I wanted to say thanks to all of you who did not believe the media. They have done a very poor job of covering everything that has happened. I am sorry that I have not been able to visit all of you during my two week leave back home. And just so you can rest at night knowing something is happening in Iraq that is noteworthy, I thought I would pass this on to you. This is the list of things that has happened in Iraq recently: (Please share it with your friends and compare it to the version that your paper is producing.)

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_ray_reynolds.htm

NOTE: I am not accusing you of being right-wing, only using a similar fallacious rhetorical tactic, one that I demonstrate here being used to support something we probably both disagree with.

[Greyhound]

54. Thanks for making my point. n/t

[LoZoccolo]

18. And yes I am familiar with that.

And I warned you never to accuse me of being a FReeper again. What problem do you have with following the rules that you have to do that? Or I should be asking: how weak is your argument that you have to resort to these sorts of manipulative tactics?

This is why I don't give the Chavez people much slack.

[Greyhound]

24. Nobody has accused you of anything that I can see, let alone, being a

FReeper. :wtf: is your issue?

[LoZoccolo]

26. Bullshit.

I did take English in high school you know.

http://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/lady-doth-protest-too-much-methinks

Quit trying to get around the rules. It's disrespectful to this board and the quality of rhetoric here.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

28. I'd be pleased to.

I will also defend myself against a public accusation.

[PeaceProgProsp]

58. My favorite part of the movie is when Chavez's government

takes power back, reinstates the constitution, and then reads the Attorney General For a Day Coup Guy his CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.

That bastard sure looked happy that the constitution was back in full effect.

Did you like that part of the movie too?

[Greyhound]

63. I found the whole thing fascinating. I frequently ignored the commentary

but just seeing it all take place like that was unique in my experience.

[Greyhound]

30. Look, you are the only one that has made any accusations, and those are

vague with no specifics, nor any sources, so OK you apparently hate Chavez, we get it, congratulations. {end Sub_Thread}

[LoZoccolo]

32. Yes, I did make the accusation...

...that your logic was fallacious, yes. Guilty as charged.

[Postman]

55. Listen to Noam Chomsky...

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/06/06/1337219

starts at 49:45

Chavez was targeted for a coup by the US because he doesn't "follow orders" and he sits on all of that oil that the US purchases.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

2. Thank you

I think I'll side with the people who wanted Chavez back, instead of the elites who tried to take it over. Ari Fletcher blaming it on Chavez was par for the course, even though the violence started AFTER the coup.

Intense video, starting from the beginning now.

[rman]

4. I just love that Venezuelan folk music

kick for truth and all that.

[Virginia Dare]

6. K&R, 'cause Chavez is the real deal...n/t

[Poll_Blind]

7. I encourage people to watch this video, critically read articles about...

Chavez and come to as an informed decision as they will pursue. I do not believe that Chavez is a dictator- he is serving out the term of his presidency. Venezuelan people, including the large numbers of the poor, are becoming experts on their own Constitution. Yes, even poor Venezuelans know more about their Constitution than our own middle class. Chavez has a deeply vested interest in providing Venezuelans with some of the most important tools a citizen can have to combat dictatorship.

PB

[rinsd]

8. Yes, watch Chavez's propaganda video to get the "truth"

Just like watching FoxNews to tell like it is....

:eyes:

I don't think Chavez is the baddy he's made out to be but he's hardly a saint.

There is a cult of personality here that refuses to hear any criticism of Chavez. Indeed reports from groups like Amnesty, HRW and Reporter W.out Borders are dismissed by calling them tools of the neocons.

But a propaganda video? Well that's the "truth"

[Greyhound]

12. Nobody has accused him of being a saint, he is, after all, a national

leader and ex-military and was involved in a previous coup. None of that diminishes the great things he has accomplished there.

BTW in you missed it, the film was made by an Irish crew that happened to be there to make a documentary when the events took place. There is some slant, but the raw footage speaks for itself.

[rman]

38. The point is most of the criticism is propaganda - as you say:

"I don't think Chavez is the baddy he's made out to be."

The point is not whether or not Chavez is a saint.

What some people call "cult of personality", idolization or worship is for the most part admiration for what Chavez does for 'ordinary' people both in Venezuela end elsewhere, and the need to defend him against the false accusation that "make him out to be" a bad guy.

What's the basis for your assertion that this is a propaganda film? The documentary was made by an independent British film crew who happened to be working on a documentary about the "controversial figure" of Chavez, when the RW military coup took place. It shows what most people don't know: just how it is that Chavez reappeared a few days after having disappeared during a time of political turmoil in Venezuela. Many people don't even know there was a US-friendly military coup, let alone that there was a popular and bloodless mini-revolution a few days later, that overthrew the government that resulted from the coup, to reclaim the government for its rightful and immensely popular president.

[LittleClarkie]

14. No. I don't think he's horrible.

But neither do I think he's God's gift to man, nor do I have a wild desire to live in Venezuela because he's there.

[Greyhound]

19. Exactly. He is the best thing to happen there in many decades

and the people know it and appreciate him.

As for going there, I think he's stepped on too many BIG $$ toes to have much chance of dying of old age, and the aftermath will be bloody for the fascists are still there.

[madokie]

16. Maybe we need to do the same thing for our rightful President, Al Gore

sometimes I think we need to take to the streets and protest this coup we have experienced
:kick: & :thumbsup:
Now I go cry for the things we have lost and the things we will be seeing in the future if we don't stop it now.

[Greyhound]

35. I would support it if I believed he would. n/t

[rman]

42. I don't think the WH has a Palace Guard that's loyal to Al Gore...

Just storming the place with a couple of 10,000's of people might not work that well.

[Greyhound]

43. Good point.

the Secret Service? Where's our Gen. Butler?

[SeattleRob]

22. Kick!

It's a great movie. I saw it at a theater a couple years ago. I urge everyone to watch to see the true story of what transpired.

[mogster]

29. U beat me to it

I was just going to post this ;-)

I was once a liberal conservative, where I'm at now politically I have no idea. But I know what a honest man looks like, and Chavez is my friend. This film is so great! Look at the people surrounding him. It's democracy, folks!

Note two things about this movie; how the Venezuelan media hacks the plot against the legal elected prez. and also how the US media buys into W's rethoric against him.

Note two things about Chavez in this movie; how he refuses to resign to the military junta, and most important: how he tells all people to go home and calm down once democracy is restored, both the opposition and his own supporters. No revenge, no cheap rethoric - just 'If you don't like me, that's OK. But you must respect the constitution of Venezuela.'
This was said just after his release from prison.

A statesman.

[Greyhound]

31. That statement was what convinced me that he may be the real deal.

Seems to have the best interests of the citizens at heart. Do you think GWB would hesitate for a moment to round up all of the participants of a similar attempt here and disappear them?

[mogster]

37. He's one of the more interesting politicians in the world today

And one of the few confronting Bush directly. That is a rare quality. We could use some of that latin stamina up here where I live ;-)

Who knows what Bush would do, lol. Probably cry for another drink.

[IronLionZion]

33. Saddam has videos like that too

so did Hitler, and many other despots. See Triumph of the Will, it's a very nice unbiased video that shows pure factual information. If it's on a video, it must be true. Even Bush has them.

prop·a·gan·da Audio pronunciation of "propaganda" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prp-gnd)
n.

1. The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.
2. Material disseminated by the advocates or opponents of a doctrine or cause: wartime propaganda.


Before you accuse me of not looking at the 5 minutes or whatever, I saw the entire video 2 years ago. The common attacks on Chavez are unfair, but so is this. I think the truth is somewhere in between.

[Greyhound]

34. This is not Chavez' video and yes it is slanted but the raw footage

speaks for itself. The contrast between the "communists" shooting at the loyal corporatists that was broadcast and the footage of the same event in a long shot, showing the empty street and them shooting at the snipers, says it all.

Also the fact that the junta allowed them to stay and continue filming after the coup indicates a lack of blatant bias.

I'm still waiting for someone to show/tell me what he has done that is so terrible. I honestly don't have a stake in either side of this and really don't care either way, but the way the "debate" has been conducted here sets off all of my BS alarms.

[SeattleRob]

57. I also thought it was interesting

after the coup, the anti-Chavez media showed a demonstration at the Cuban embassy by pro-Coup citizens. The "Demonstration" appeared to be very small - and reminded me of 2 other famous media events - The Florida Republican "Riot" during the Election Recount of 2000 and the Saddam statue pull down in April of 2003.


People in other parts of the thread mentioned the US media blackout of this event. Remember the "Liberal" NY Times wrote an editorial in favor of the coup. Why isn't this film being broadcast on PBS? It's one of the most compelling documentaries I've ever seen.

[mogster]

36. Saddam, Hitler, Bush

You don't think you're overdoing it a bit? ;-)

[IronLionZion]

39. just a little bit, but the truth is out there...somewhere...

Sorry, but I can't just believe something because it's on a heavily biased video, nor can I believe something just because it's reported in the corporate media. I question everything, every time.

Remember the Iraq videos Bushco put out? pure bullshit.

[mogster]

40. Watch the film, friend

Have an open mind. This isn't pre-ordered footage, it's two Irish journalists who happened to be in the right place at the right time, and made a movie to describe what they saw.

Peace :-)

[Greyhound]

41. And again, note that they were able to tape the "new government"

in action, something I daresay wasn't allowed by any of the monsters you mentioned.

And by you I meant IronLionZion. Oops.

[Bridget Burke]

44. Kim Bartley and Donnacha O'Briain are the new Leni Riefenstahl?

What are your specific complaints with the film?

[IronLionZion]

46. no complaints on the specifics of the film, or of Chavez

it's just that I don't automatically believe everything I see.

I'm sure those two are great people, but the video is obviously biased in favor of Chavez, as is expected. Leni's film is probably the only right-wing documentary I can think of at the moment, but there are tons of left-wing documentaries out there. It's difficult or maybe even impossible to remain completely unbiased, but it's important to see the bias and factor it in when judging anything.

[Bridget Burke]

47. Why the immediate Nazi reference?

Do you regard Michael Moore with distrust, as well?

[mogster]

51. Here they are

Kim Bartley & Donnacha O'Briain

Kim Bartley is a freelance producer and director whose work takes her mostly to Africa and Latin America, where she directs and films short documentaries for a number of international aid agencies in crisis or conflict situations.

Donnacha O'Briain is a freelance producer/director. His documentary THE SEMINARY follows three young men training for priesthood. He has worked on productions in Russia, South East Asia and Australia.

http://www.biff.no/2004/index.php3?Eng=Ja&ID=FilmEng&counter=34#Regi

[IronLionZion]

53. because the reference is well known and as good as any

and yes I do, but I thought his movie was nicely done. I don't believe anything until I have checked and doublechecked with multiple sources.

[rman]

65. Care to give any examples of supposed pro-Chavez bias in this documentary?

Or would you rather stick to vague and unsubstantiated accusations?

[IronLionZion]

67. I'll stick to vague yet substantiated thanks

Because I'm no sheep. I don't just blindly believe some video. And I watched the whole thing 3 times over the past 2 years including yesterday.

[rman]

68. Nobody does blindly believe a video

Why do you think it's special that you don't? If you don't think it's special, why even mention it?

Btw, lack of sources as in your post that i commented on, does not amount to "substantiated".

[PeaceProgProsp]

59. Hello. This was made by Irish people whom the COUP PLOTTERS

invited to continuing filming them once they took over.

This movie shows the coup from all sides and it gives the viewers a lot of room to make up their own minds.

if anything, the movie should convince you to shift that suspicion of yours heavily on to CNN et al who are clearly showed spreading lies about the coup.

[Greyhound]

45. Thank you for the input (and recommendations).

I am a little disappointed that no one chose to address the fact that their corporate controlled media was able to hide the fact that a coup had taken place from the entire nation for two days, and was then able to conceal that the rightful government had been restored. If the protesters hadn't taken back the state channel 8, the military-corporatists would have killed Chavez and would be ruling today.

The utter lack of concern over corporate consolidation and and near total control over every aspect of life in amerika, is my biggest worry for our future here.

[IronLionZion]

48. I share your concerns with the media

it's very important to have an independent media or at least some competition. Unfortunately, the US corporate media is allied with the state, and we have no real state media.

The only time we can see different sides of the story is when we get on the blogs or check the foreign media.

[Greyhound]

52. Exactly, and what a sad statement that is.

Why aren't we out in the streets? What the hell happened to us that we've become such pathetic sheep?

[mogster]

50. Huh?

> how the Venezuelan media hacks the plot against the legal elected prez.

OK. It should have been 'hatched', lol :P

[Nabia2004]

49. Thank you - nt

[Douglas Carpenter]

56. recommended - excellent film

[upi402]

60. MUST SEE

K/R

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[upi402]

62. Americans should HAVE to live abroad for

an extended period and live with other peoples. We are ignorant in terms of international politics, in the aggregate. We are provincial too. We are victims somewhat, due to the corporate media and politics on the purchase system. But in America there are libraries. In America there are internets. The TV remote has a button on it that turns the thing off.

Still, I feel that we are responsible to try to counter the propaganda. A fish swimming upstream doesn't stop the flow very well though, huh? Frustrating and overwhelming feeling. I have faint hope anymore. Especially when DUers are so entrenched in DINO politics and this sort of unexamined Chavez dislike.

[mogster]

64. Kick n/t

:kick:

[Judi Lynn]

66. Here's the NY Times review of the film:

FILM REVIEW; Tumult in Venezuela's Presidential Palace, Seen Up Close
By STEPHEN HOLDEN
Published: November 5, 2003, Wednesday

''The Revolution Not Be Televised,'' a riveting documentary, is not the movie that the Irish filmmakers Kim Bartley and Donnacha O'Briain envisioned when they traveled to Venezuela to film a portrait of Hugo Chávez, that country's left-wing president. A volatile force in Latin American politics, Mr. Chávez, who was elected president by a landslide in 1998, was shaking up the status quo, having vowed to take control of Venezuela's oil industry and redirect its wealth to benefit the poor.

But on April 11, 2002, the filmmakers were firsthand witnesses to one of the shortest presidential overthrows in Latin American history. On that day a coalition of military officials and business leaders engineered Mr. Chávez's removal from power. He was arrested and held prisoner, and the national assembly was dissolved. An interim government was installed.

Two days later a popular uprising brought more than a million protesters to the streets of Caracas and forced the new government out of office. Mr. Chávez returned in triumph. The filmmakers were lucky enough to be in the presidential palace when he was removed, and they were there when he returned.

More than a scary close-up look at the raw mechanics of a power grab, the film is also a cautionary examination of the use of television to deceive and manipulate the public. The attempt to seize control never would have gotten off the ground without the fervent support of Venezuela's five private television stations, all politically aligned with oil interests that had hounded Mr. Chávez from the moment he took office. The only television station sympathetic to Mr. Chávez was the state-run channel, whose signal was immediately cut by the new government.
(snip)

When I saw this part, I felt stunned, sickened, and shocked. Could NOT believe what I was seeing:

From the outset the opposition to Mr. Chávez was intense. His friendship with Fidel Castro was offered as proof that he was a communist, and one television commentator sneered that Mr. Chávez had a ''sexual fixation'' on Mr. Castro. Another declared him mentally ill.
(snip)

http://movies2.nytimes.com/mem/movies/review.html?_r=1&res=9A05E3D7153BF936A35752C1A9659C8B63&oref=slogin
(Requires free registration)

It was amazing seeing these pieces of crap actually saying these things on their tv programs. I refuse to speak with people like this in my life, as they are scum, and in Venezuela they have their own tv shows. I guess it's like Rush Limbaugh. God.

Thank you, greyhound1966. Many of us didn't see it at the theaters, and had almost given up hope of ever seeing at all for ages. It's WONDERFUL that people have the chance to see it now. I've watched it twice in a row, AGAIN, and I don't feel in the least bit a victem of left-wing propaganda. I believe the propaganda addicts are the ones who come here to try to lay waste to Democrats, in support of the right-wing racist oligarchy.

[Zhade]

69. "If you think Chavez is a horrible dictator..." then you're an IDIOT.

The Carter Center has signed off on Venezuelan elections.

If anyone thinks he's a dictator, they don't know what the fuck they're talking about, and can be safely classified as "ignorant".

[rman]

70. Pirates and Emperors - video (US foreign policy 101)

A short educational animation film. (3:44)

Pirates and Emperors
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xA0pPqXJoAI

"...what would you say about a gang of vicious lowdown thugs who are trying to overthrow the government by attacking undefended civilian targets like schools, farms, hospitals an outreach centers?
Why, i'd say they are terrorists.
Wrong!
I'm sorry, the correct answer is "Freedom Fighters". At least that is what you called these thugs, aka "the contras" when you funded their campaign of terror and indiscriminate killing to overthrow the government of Nigaragua...."

[mogster]

71. That rocked, rman

Thanks for posting. Aren't youtube and google films great additions to forum postings and debate? :-)