I am sad and worried about being an American.

[babylonsister]

Yes, I am. I have been going to Indonesia for the past 10+ years, at least. I was there when 9/11 happened, I went two times the year when Bali was first bombed to support the economy to show my respect for the people I know there.
I haven't been proud of my country in awhile, though the Balinese have been welcoming to all nationalities, as that's what they do. It's their livelihood and nature, and my vacation.
FYI, Bali is mostly Hindu, not Muslim. A good part of the rest of Indonesia is Muslim.
When will it be safe to go out again as an American?

[MercutioATC]

1. Two solutions to your dilemma:

1) Tell everybody you're Canadian.

2) Wear one of these: http://www.cafepress.com/americanapology/137430

[babylonsister]

4. Actually, I have pulled the Canadian. But just as frequently

I'm too tired to lie. I yam what I yam! People in Indo have no reason to hate us, but I'm hating 'us' at the moment.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

2. A few years back I met foreigners who said they knew it was our gov.

Not the people. But after the 2004 elections and
revelations that have occurred since then, I wouldn't
be so sure anymore. I dispair with you babsis.

[cigsandcoffee]

3. I will never be ashamed to be American

I don't think there is a country in the world that has a deeper claim to morality, and believe our nation and our individual citizens have done much to make the earth a better place. If somebody overseas wants to generalize me with transitory politicians and policy that both they and I disagree with, they can take a flying leap.

[Benhurst]

5. Yeah. Sure. NT

[babylonsister]

6. You equate this admin with morality; I beg to differ. Show me

how they've been treating their citizens, nevermind their soldiers, with any kind of morality other than the way to make the rich richer. They don't give a fig for us.
I think this admin, ergo, this current majority government, sucks hockey pucks.

[cigsandcoffee]

7. I didn't equate this admin to morality

So I can't really answer your question.

[bdamomma]

135. they have proved to show us

that they (this regime) could not care less for the American People. I hate being taken a fool, and these thugs will be judged someday soon I hope. They inflicted so much pain on people.

[babylonsister]

9. Let's try this again. Deeper claim to morality? The US under

dimson? That man doesn't have a moral bone in his entire body.
Our nation and individual citizens have ... made the earth a better place? Dimson, again, could
possibly blow that away with a single movement.
Also, why do you think America is hated? It's not because of me or anyone else who has travelled a bit.
I am an American and would like to be proud of that; this bogus asshat in office has ruined that feeling by being a stubborn, stupid, illogical, unethical puppet who didn't have a clue about going to war, still doesn't, people are dying, and he doesn't give a good god damn!
I am pissed.
You tell me; when will it stop?

[cigsandcoffee]

10. I am speaking historically

Not many powerful nations have been as benevolent as this one, nor have as many individual citizens been so generous. Our world does not begin and end with the Bush Administration.

[babylonsister]

13. He is RUINING our nation! Please understand that!

He's killing our diplomacy, has tarnished the United Nations, and look at the big fat jam with the soldiers. He wasn't into joining with other forces when going into Iraq, and he has no clue how damaging rumsfailed et al are now. This is a FAILURE IN LEADERSHIP!

[cigsandcoffee]

19. I wouldn't go that far

He's a bad President. He's harmed our reputation. He's kind of embarassing.

And in a couple of years, he'll be gone. Any foreigners of reasonable intellect know that America's leadership is transitory. I don't feel any need to throw myselves in repentence at the feet of a German or Brit, especially when I consider the sins of their transistory leadership - or Japan's, or China's, or the French, or the Italians, etc. etc. etc. Every nation has its sins to recover from, and I don't see why we would be any different. Honestly, I'd much rather have a George Bush in our skeleton closet than a Mao Tse Tung or Josef Stalin. Wouldn't you?

[kestrel91316]

66. "KIND OF embarrassing"???? "KIND OF"???????

............understatement of the century............

[in_cog_ni_to]

138. KIND OF EMBARRASSING????(*&^%$#@#$%^&& OMG!

:rofl::rofl::rofl: OK, I see where you're coming from.:eyes:

[adigal]

144. Trail of Tears, Japanese internment camps,

My Lai - we do have a long history of taking what we want and smashing peoples' lives. Now, I love my country because we do try to do the right thing most of the time. But we have done some very terrible things that the wingnuts won't even admit to doing.

[bdamomma]

136. plus he is not open to open dialogue with other nations

they just don't accept help from anyone else, bush has managed to isolate this country, and our neighbors, he is just arrogant and ignorant what do you expect from a man/boy who has never travelled outside of the US before he was appointed to the office, thus the cowboy bravado.

[TomInTib]

14. What??

'benevolent'?

Like when we wiped out a generation of Vietnamese (2 million)? I was a large part of that one.

Or when we lit up Central America with our humane actions?

Or when we incinerated 100,000 in the City of Angels (Panama) because George the Elder had a problem with his pee-pee?

Or kinda like when April Glaspie told Hussein it was OK to invade Kuwait and then GHWB and Stormin' Norman killed a few hundred thousand (including kids - don't forget those sanctions, now) Iraqis?

And now this outrage (I am sure I have left something out).

Foreign Aid is a bribe. Period.

[cigsandcoffee]

20. Oh, please

Britain's crimes in China. Japan's crimes in Vietnam. Germany's crimes toward the Jews. Pol Pot, Mao, Caligula, Nero, Tamerlane, Ivan the Terrible, Robesppierre, Ayatolla Khomeni.

Bad shit is all around us, and always has been. If you think the United States has more than its fair share, you're not paying attention.

[TomInTib]

29. Oh, I have been paying attention all right.

Name one country responsible for more death and destruction over the last 60 years than the US.

Hell, all by myself I am responsible for over thirty dead.

And that's not counting la Ciudad de los Angeles, Republica de Panama.

[cigsandcoffee]

32. The Soviet Union, for one

Some estimate that 20 million people died in their Gulags after WWII. That's probably not far off the mark. Warlords in Africa have killed or created conditions that led to the deaths of untold millions.

And if you take countries within their scales, I would wager that the strife in Central and South America, the Middle East, Asia (let's not forget the millions killed by Pol Pot), and a whole host of other places have equalled or surpassed our own scale. Much of it was strife that would have happened anyway, but took on American or Soviet involvement through the dynamic of the Cold War.

[TomInTib]

34. But they were killing their own people.

We kill other peoples' people.

There is a big difference.

If I want to shoot my dog, that is my business.

If I want to shoot your dog, that is another matter entirely.

[cigsandcoffee]

36. The Afghans weren't Russian, though

And anyway, I place little distinction on the differences between killing members of your own country and members of another. Killing is killing, especially when there are millions dead.

And lets look at intentions. What do you think JFK's intentions were for getting us in to Vietnam, and why was it continued by Johnson and then Nixon? Do you think we were evil, and trying to subjugate the population of Vietnam to be our slaves while we owned their land? Or do you think we had hopes of defeating Communism there, modernizing their infrastructure, and having them as an independent trading partner with prosperity and peace?

[TomInTib]

44. First things first..

JFK did not 'get' us into Vietnam.

Eisenhower sent in 'consultants' as a result of Dien Bin Phu and as a sop to the French for their support in WWII.

We did not desire the land in Vietnam - there is oil lying under the Gulf of Tonkin.

Only the crazies thought we could 'defeat Communism' in Vietnam. The dominoes would have stopped at China even if we could have tipped them (which we didn't).

[cigsandcoffee]

46. Hindsight is 20/20

Communism was spookier to JFK or Eisenhower than it is to us.

My point in bringing up JFK was not to disparage him, but to point out that visionaries can have the best of intentions but be wrong. Vietnam was something we did with the best of intentions, but it turned out to be a very crappy policy. I can't place that above the sin of (for instance) executing twenty million of your countrymen for not thinking like you do, or sometimes for nothing at all.

[Selatius]

63. I'm sure more than a few Chileans and Nicaraguans and Salvadorans disagre

Most of these nations were undermined not because of possible Soviet penetration but because they offended in one way or another American corporate business interests.

The federal government is no better than any other world power in history, in my honest opinion. It's done roughly what other world powers throughout history has done: Exploit poorer, weaker peoples for their resources and impose its own social order upon them. The only difference is we just have better propaganda.

And several African warlords were and still are being supported by the US government. One of the worst African dictators, Mobuto Sese Seko, was aided in his coup to seize control over what is now known as the Democratic Republic of the Congo by the CIA.

[bdamomma]

137. The US has always been involved in some sort of underhandness.

[mike_c]

25. my friend, you don't know much about history...

...if you think the U.S. has some claim to historical morality. I don't even know where to begin. Hmmm-- you might start by googling "United Fruit." Then try "School of the Americas." Maybe "Mohammad Mossadegh." So many foreign policy attrocities, so little time....

[cigsandcoffee]

28. Little puny atrocities

Every nation has them, and they amount to historical footnotes. What about the Marshall plan? The building of the Panama Canal? Billions in aid to Africa? American charities spanning the globe doing important work for struggling people? The people of this nation are overwhelmingly kind and good, and I'm not going to put more credence on the foreign policy bumbling of a few inept or well-intentioned leaders.

[charlie]

31. Dunno if I'd include the Panama Canal

as a measure of our benevolence. We got what we wanted through insurrection and secession.

[cigsandcoffee]

33. And the world got an incredible tool...

...widely used by just about every nation on it.

[charlie]

35. Well, I'll grab your car

and trick it out with a trailer hitch and U-Haul and let my neighborhood timeshare it. You're welcome to do so too. Call me industrious, I doubt anyone would call me benevolent.

[cigsandcoffee]

37. Panama is thrilled to have the Canal

Thrilled. And so are the shipping companies and economies of the world.

[charlie]

39. And Colombia would've been thrilled

to keep Panama.

[cigsandcoffee]

41. It's an imperfect world

If you want to be part of a country that doesn't have to involve itself in world affairs for its own protection or advancement, move to the Isle of St. Kitts or Jamaica. Otherwise, you'll have to accept that a nation as large and powerful as the United States is going to be invested all over the place, and sometimes stub it's toe or walk on the grass. That's just the world we live in.

I am proud that despite America's many misdeeds, we remain a nation of mostly good and honest people with the very best of intentions. Sometimes, our government reflects that better than others. I'm willing to wait and work for that, and remain proud of my country in the meantime.

[charlie]

51. Can the "move to XX" talk

I'm not interested in hearing it. First the canal was an example of US goodness, now it's our being "invested" all over the place and it's a tough old world. Weasel words and excuses. You want to tout the Marshall Plan as enlightened American action? Fine. Berlin Airlift? Great. But the Panama Canal isn't part of that list.

[cigsandcoffee]

53. Says you. I disagree.

The Panama Canal is a great thing we did for the world.

[charlie]

60. Thought so

Smash and grab is immaterial to the result. Says you. Promise me you'll never look for work in the State Dept.

[cigsandcoffee]

68. I was speaking of when we gave away the Canal.

As opposed to when we "smashed and grabbed" it. I hope you can see the difference.

[charlie]

76. Pshaw

You could've said that 5 posts ago, then I would've seen the difference. But you know that.

[cigsandcoffee]

83. You're right, I should have been more clear

I still don't think our building it was evil (I mean, we took it over from the French, if I remember correctly), but the return of its control to Pnama was a clear example of our benevolence.

[charlie]

90. We helped foment insurrection

And when our weasel Banau-Varilla's shenanigans began to bear fruit, we sent warships down to ensure success. We paid Colombia reparations for the secession, so the question of our culpability in that episode is moot.

[cigsandcoffee]

97. Well, the job was started.

I think it was best finished, and am sure our leaders had the best of intentions when weighing pros and cons.

[charlie]

107. Aiyiyi

The job was started by the French. In Colombia. The Colombian govt couldn't get approval for us through the Senate, so our merc proxy instigated a rebellion. Which we enforced with our muscle. It's not like we didn't have options other than revolution in a sovereign nation, our own govt financed a study and originally recommended that we build in Nicaragua. Nicaragua was amenable to the idea.

Criminy, you really are an America-can-do-no-wrong fellow.

[uppityperson]

71. 40,000 dead Iraqis are for protection or advancement?

Or is this merely stubbing the USA's toe?

"If we confuse dissent with disloyalty — if we deny the right of the individual to be wrong, unpopular, eccentric or unorthodox — if we deny the essence of racial equality then hundreds of millions in Asia and Africa who are shopping about for a new allegiance will conclude that we are concerned to defend a myth and our present privileged status. Every act that denies or limits the freedom of the individual in this country costs us the . . . confidence of men and women who aspire to that freedom and independence of which we speak and for which our ancestors fought." – Ford Fiftieth Anniversary Show, CBS and NBC, June 1953, "Conclusion." Murrow: His Life and Times, A.M. Sperber, Freundlich Books, 1986

[cigsandcoffee]

75. I'm not going to defend the Iraq War.

It was an inept strategy, with terrible results. But it doesn't make me ashamed of my country, so much as it does hopeful that we'll learn from our mistakes. It is not a pillar moment in American history, and think it's something we can recover from with a little fresh leadership and competence.

[uppityperson]

84. Iraq question was in response to your post #41, requoted here

"Otherwise, you'll have to accept that a nation as large and powerful as the United States is going to be invested all over the place, and sometimes stub it's toe or walk on the grass."

You say things, then when challenged say you don't want to defend or argue that example. 40,000 dead Iraqis are for protection or advancement?

[cigsandcoffee]

87. I do accept Iraq as a mistake...

...and don't see it as some kind of evil perpetrated on the world comparable to the holocaust or Soviet gulags. I accept that a nation as large and invested as America will make mistakes, but I can distinguish those errors from intentional acts of harm.

[uppityperson]

91. No, you say the Iraq invasion/occupation was an investment, a toe stubbing

Not intentional? The invasion/occupation was not intentional harming? Why did the USA invade Iraq?

[cigsandcoffee]

96. Who are you, F. Lee Baily?

I believe I was clear. The belief that the Iraq War would work for both us and the Iraqis was a mistake. I'm not saying we were walking along happily and fell into a pit by accident.

[uppityperson]

101. no, I am merely quoting cigsandcoffee post #42

ps. it is f. lee. bailey, if you mean OJ's lawyer.

[cigsandcoffee]

106. Your making a show out of this... performing, even

I offered my opinion, and didn't expect to be swarmed. I think I'll just back off and leave people to their own opinions. You've done nothing to change mine.

[uppityperson]

111. I ask you a question, using one of your quotes, you refuse to answer

you say I'm performing? pshaw.

[uppityperson]

64. 'little puny atrocities"? 800,000 in Rwanda is puny?

"I'm not going to put more credence on the foreign policy bumbling of a few inept or well-intentioned leaders." What does that mean?

[cigsandcoffee]

69. We killed 800,00 in Rwanda?

Or did we fail to stop it. If the latter, why should that fall on us more than on the UN or any individual nation or block of nations with the means to make a difference?

[uppityperson]

74. We failed to stop them and responsibilty should fall more on USA

USA controls a lot of what happens in the UN. Media coverage was abysmal, even for those of us who watch and inquire into reasons behind the news.

You said "Little puny atrocities
Every nation has them, and they amount to historical footnotes."

Is this one of the "little puny atrocities" that evey nation has?

[cigsandcoffee]

89. Personally, I put the vast majority of the blame

..on the actual people who did the killing. Isn't that really the best place for it?

[uppityperson]

95. And secondly on the people who could have stopped it but didn't.

Sometimes intervention is needed and those that don't intervene are responsible for the outcome.

[cigsandcoffee]

98. Yes, secondly.

They deserve a smaller piece of the responsibility, alright. Our aid would surely have come with great cost in life to our own forces. Would it have been easy for you to make that call?

[uppityperson]

102. Our aid would have prevented much loss of life if done SOON ENOUGH

How do you know it would have "surely come with great cost in life to our own forces"? If done soon enough, when it was asked for, it most likely would NOT have come at great cost in life to any.

[cigsandcoffee]

108. We gave aid

What we didn't give were troops. Troops get killed when they're put in a war zone.

[uppityperson]

113. Not if they go in soon enough.

not if they go in to prevent 1 group from genociding another. Not if they go in soon enough. We gave aid after they killed each other. And the killing is still going on.

[uppityperson]

67. 30,000 civilians in Nicaragua are "puny"?

[Swamp Rat]

45. Yes, but on the other hand our country began with Manifest Destiny...

... historically speaking, and, in many varied forms, it continues to this day.

[cigsandcoffee]

49. Well, those were the times

One need only look at the European record of Colonialism to see what the world was like in those days. It's good we've moderated - not every country does.

[Swamp Rat]

72. "Moderated?" What about the millions of dead people in SE Asia?

Remember Vietnam and Cambodia? Unfortunately, I do.

I am trying to understand your perspective cigsandcoffee: you want to be proud of America, right?

So do I and every male in my family who has served in the military, but I keep getting bombarded with these pesky things called facts about places like, El Salvador, Panama, Iraq, Chile, Nicaragua...

"One need only look at the European record of Colonialism... It's good we've moderated - not every country does." - Red Herring fallacy.

Have you watched Fox News lately?

Have you read about the German Weimar Republic and what happened?

Have you been to a concentration camp?

Well, I have and I also have bad news for you: the U.S. Government is now a constitutional dictatorship, and will descend very rapidly into fascist police state if we don't stop it now.

Had you been living with me in New Orleans last year, you would understand quite viscerally what is happening to our country.

[cigsandcoffee]

80. Fine. If that's what you believe, then have at it.

I'd like to stay grounded in reality, and look forward to 2008. I'm not so arrogant as to believe I am in a struggle for the very life and death of this country, or that all has been lost because we have a bonehead in the White House.

[uppityperson]

88. so you believe that the USA has moderated?

as you said above? and you infer that Swamprat is arrogant and not grounded in reality for bringing up all the deaths the USA has caused in our lifetimes?

[cigsandcoffee]

93. No, I think he's over the top

for all the talk of corporate fascist states, or whatever it was. That's ridiculous.
And yes, I certainly think we've moderated from our beginnings. You wouldn't catch much slavery or wholesale slaughter of native residents in this country today, would you?

[uppityperson]

99. So you don't believe in the corporate fascist state of the USA?

yes, there is slavery in the USA and slaughter of residents. Did you perchance watch the news last Sept regarding the flooding of New Orleans? Do you know about homeless, foodless, jobless, healthcareless, educationless people? Do you know anyone working in the fields, picking crops, getting paid enough to not quite live on? True, I cannot sell my neighbor, but there is no way in hell that all people are equal, have equal opportunities here. And, did the pilgrims have slaves?

[cigsandcoffee]

103. No, I don't believe in the corporate facsist stae of the USA.

I think that's just about the most overblown bit of rhetoric I've ever heard on a chat forum. Name one place on Earth were all people are equal or have equal opportunites. You're comparing us to Utopia, otherwise known as "nowhere." Could things be better? Sure. Could they be a whole lot worse? Absolutely.

[uppityperson]

109. So the opposite of fascism is total equality?

Is this what you are saying? I am not comparing USA to Utopia, but saying there are serious problems here and I am ashamed of much my gvt has done.

[cigsandcoffee]

112. No, I was responding to your words

there is no way in hell that all people are equal, have equal opportunities here.

Your words, your apparent standards. I find them to be a bit unreasonable in terms of expectations.

[uppityperson]

117. did the pilgrims have slaves?

[cigsandcoffee]

118. Are those your words about equality?

First things first, after all.

[uppityperson]

120. no, you said the usa has moderated since we have no slaves today.

[cigsandcoffee]

121. So those aren't your words about equality?

How did they get in your post?

[uppityperson]

123. What are you talking about? You started with the equality stuff here

cigsandcoffee Donating Member
103. No, I don't believe in the corporate facsist stae of the USA.

I think that's just about the most overblown bit of rhetoric I've ever heard on a chat forum. Name one place on Earth were all people are equal or have equal opportunites. You're comparing us to Utopia, otherwise known as "nowhere." Could things be better? Sure. Could they be a whole lot worse? Absolutely.

To which I replied
09. So the opposite of fascism is total equality?

Is this what you are saying? I am not comparing USA to Utopia, but saying there are serious problems here and I am ashamed of much my gvt has done.

Elsewhere you say that the USA has moderated since we don't have slaves now, so I am asking "did the pilgrims have slaves"

[cigsandcoffee]

125. Actually, no.

You introduced the equality standard with your previous post:

I cannot sell my neighbor, but there is no way in hell that all people are equal, have equal opportunities here.

My post above was in response to that. You then took me to task for same lame notion that I said equality was the opposite of fascism, when I was only responding to your apparent standards for what makes a couintry a good one.

I will answer your slaves herring when you explain how you've backed off from the unrealistic standards you set once being called on them.

[uppityperson]

128. toe stubbing, little puny atrocities, f.lee.bailey, moderated since coloni

colonial times, orgies and buying cars for fun. All stuff you wrote before. Do I need to post my question about the colonies and slavery up right by your posting about it?

[cigsandcoffee]

129. Are you going to address your retraction of the equality standard?

Or not? Hell, it would be nice if you'd just admit to being the one who brought it up, instead of baiting me in with it and then talking me to task for responding to it.

[uppityperson]

130. ok, play your game for a few minutes, then off to bed. Do you believe

that people have equal opportunities here? Do you believe what you wrote in #30...


#30 You're also free to work at the profession of your choice, attend the schools of your choice, be with the partner of your choice, attend orgies, or spend a weekend praising Jesus. You can rent an apartment without state approval (don't try this in Sweden), buy a car for fun, or start a newspaper claiming the government created 9-11.

Do we have these equalities here in the USA? Do all of us have these freedoms? Are these freedoms equal for all, or just for a select few, as you seem to be saying that they are for all.

[cigsandcoffee]

131. No, I don't think so.

You're ineptly trying to cross examine me as though you were playing with some kind of freeper troll. You can put on a show trial at somebody else's expense, because I'm not going to be a patsy for you. I only went this far to see if you'd own up to that odd backtrack on the standards question.

I've made myself clear, and stated why I am proud of America and happy to take pride in this country. If my reasons and feelings don't meet your standards, that's just too bad.

[uppityperson]

146. I am ineptly asking you to clarify what you have written.

If you see it as cross examination, asking for clarification, then that is your problem. I don't care if you feel the same as me, just trying to get clarifaction on what you have said. You are the one playing games, leading me on (by your own account), saying things and not clarifying. So be it.

[Swamp Rat]

110. Ok, but that sounds like "good German" rhetoric to me

If you want democracy you must fight for it - not punch keys on a computer keyboard.

"Name one place on Earth were all people are equal or have equal opportunites" - fallacy.

I got some "overblown bit of rhetoric" for you right here:

[Swamp Rat]

105. "Ridiculous? Over the top?" I saw it here in New Orleans

Were you comfy in your home last August while we died, shown live on TV?

Did it bother you that so many THOUSANDS of Americans were left to die? ... "native residents in this country today?"

Did you feel proud of America?

"You wouldn't catch much slavery or wholesale slaughter of native residents in this country today, would you?" - Another Red Herring fallacy.

What about all those thousands of dead Iraqi children? ... "oh say can you see..." :patriot:

[in_cog_ni_to]

139. *AHEM* Hello! NOLA??? Katrina VICTIMS???&^%$# n/t

[Swamp Rat]

92. But your statements come off as arrogant and NOT grounded in reality.

Are you really reading the responses to your posts? Or are the facts too inconvenient for your world view?

"I'm not so arrogant as to believe I am in a struggle for the very life and death of this country" - How about the humility to listen to others?

I hope you are not abandoned after the next hurricane like we were in New Orleans.

[Dem2theMax]

94. "I'm not so arrogant as to believe

I am in a struggle for the very life and death of this country, or that all has been lost because we have a bonehead in the White House."

In other words, you have NO idea of what is going on in this country.

In other words, you DO watch Faux. Pity.

[Protagoras]

145. "powerful nations" is an interesting qualification.

One might posit that really benevolent people's don't drive for the kind of "power" that would put them in that catagory. Check out "A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn...

Could we be worse? Sure. Is that a meaningful compass for judging our morality? Seems questionable to me.

[Webster Green]

11. Really?

How about the way we treated the Native Americans? What about our slaves? Death squads in Central America?

Legends in our own minds?

[cigsandcoffee]

12. Nobody is claiming perfection here

But look around the world, and down through history. You could do a lot worse.

[Webster Green]

21. And a lot better...

Everybody seems to think wherever they live is the best place on the planet. Even the people who live in places as uninhabitable as Orlando, Florida suffer from this delusion.

We pretty much suck, and have destroyed much of what was good about this country!

Just deal with it.

[babylonsister]

27. HOW? Riddle me this, my cigsandcoffee friend. How could it

be any worse than what's going on now?
Here's a thought; tell me why it's so good now, and how it could be a lot worse, because I don't see it.

[cigsandcoffee]

30. You're free to disparage the government here

I wouldn't try that in a whole heap of countries around the world. How about we start there.

You're also free to work at the profession of your choice, attend the schools of your choice, be with the partner of your choice, attend orgies, or spend a weekend praising Jesus. You can rent an apartment without state approval (don't try this in Sweden), buy a car for fun, or start a newspaper claiming the government created 9-11.

If you think America is so awful, perhaps you're just overwhelmed by all the choice and opportunity. I can guarantee you that there are millions of foreigners right now who would cheerfully take your place. That doesn't happen by accident.

[babylonsister]

40. Hah! Yeah, right. Be with the partner of your choice when your

idiot prez is going to denounce the gays with his insipid speech tomorrow? "Be with the partner of your choice"? I don't think so, the way your prez is going.
Work at the profession of your choice? as long as it hasn't been outsourced.
Attend orgies? (Search HookerGate, PLEASE!)
Buy a car 'for fun'? Who exactly can afford to 'buy a car for fun'? I'm driving a '93 Toyota. What do you drive?
America has a ways to go before we have any respect for any admin; this one has totally let us down. If you don't know that, you are sadly disillusioned.

[cigsandcoffee]

42. Gays can't get married.

Maybe someday they will, and I hope they do. Go try to be an open homosexual in most the Middle East, and see what happens. Thay're far from debating whether or not marriage is an issue.

Meanwhile, in America, we have a governor in New Jersey stepping down for having a closet gay life, and most Americans couldn't figure out why that would prompt him to retire. You could do a lot worse.

[babylonsister]

47. Gays 'could' get married if the asshat in charge had a spine!

You hope they do, but you support this admin, but you don't support gays, but you support the future for gays? What's up with that?
I don't give a flying flip about a gay gov or a former gov in NJ. Why do you? Belay that. I don't care why it's so important to you.

[cigsandcoffee]

58. Where the hell have I said I support this admin?

Bush is an utter failure. And where have I said I don't support gays?

I think you're reading in to something that just isn't there.

[uppityperson]

48. you do realize that in many other countries gay is ok?

Not just comparing USA with a generic middle eastern country.

[cigsandcoffee]

54. Gay is OK here too

Isn't it? There are loads of gay people living very openly and happily in America.

[uppityperson]

59. Loads more hiding, loads getting beaten down for openness

effeminate men, masculine women getting called names, beat up, killed for their manerisms. Many gay people hiding it due to fear.

[uppityperson]

57. Answers

I disparage the current administration, but don't put personal information here. I cannot work at the profession of my choice because training costs too much, besides I am the wrong sex, color, age. I can rent an apartment most places around the world, USA doesn't hold any monopoly on this. I cannot buy a car for fun because they cost too damn much, what with insurance, gas, upkeep and the initial cost (want to buy me one?). Most places I could start a news paper claiming the gvt created 9-11, nothing to do with bein gin USA. I cannot marry whom I like, I cannot become even a congressional representative money again and, remember all those orgies in my past).

I cannot travel to many places in the world without fearing, wishing I had a different passport (Cananda perhaps). I cannot get a decent public education because so much time must be spent preparing for those darn tests to prove my school can pass the tests. I cannot get my dental work done without going into debt. I fear for my safety in other countries, esp off this N American continent because so many people hate what this country has done. I fear even here, go to the store wearing a salwar kameez and double check to make sure I left my headscarf in my car so I don't look like a "raghead".

[cigsandcoffee]

73. Well, where do you think you'd have it better?

England? Keep dreaming. Scandinavia, France or Holland? Be prepared to meet a racism deeper than you'll find here. Italy or Spain? I doubt it, but haven't done more than spend a weekend or so around them, so I can't be sure.

Anyway, I didn't mean to get in to big overblown argument about how good or bad America is. I just wanted to say that I am proud of my country and won't let any American or foreigner tell me I should be ashamed of it because we currently have a boob in the White House or once caused strife in Central America. Feel free to disagree.

[uppityperson]

82. You do realize that OP says is afraid, and you brought up the pride

and have been arguing pride since. "Sad and worried" "when will it be safe to go out again as an American?" are OP's words. You are arguing that no one can tell you to not be proud.

Everyplace has problems, no place is perfect. The USA has done good things but also lots of bad, nasty things in the world. Anti-USA sentiments are increasing worldwide, changing from primarily anti-USA gvt to anti-USA people. This is scary.

[cigsandcoffee]

85. Well, I'm sorry the OP is scared.

I think it's a shame that s/he feels that way.

[Union Thug]

15. I understand where you're coming from...

but I'm not sure the situation is about transitory politicians. I believe that there has been a general shift in the American mass-consciousness (since about 1980)towards cultural narcissism. Everything we do as a country, from our arrogant capital-centric foreign policy, to the hyper consumerism that drives it, demonstrates a massive disregard for world community. In this respect, I don't think those people overseas that you mention overgeneralize at all.

[cigsandcoffee]

23. Have you lived overseas?

In the years I spent in Erope as a younger man, I noticed the same damn thing in everyone else. London, for example, is a cesspit of narcissism and class warfare. It's human nature more than anything else. Some people are bad, shallow, petty or rotten. Some others are kind and generous. So goes the world.

[Union Thug]

24. not lived, but traveled extensively.

I agree, Britain is shithole for the working class (I maintain friendships with Irish Republican Socialists (the IRSM as opposed to the IRA))to this very day. But Britain is not exactly the rest of the world, now is it?

A simple move to the north and east to the Scandinavian countries sees a general shift in attitude (in spite of some of the current leadership). One of my father's friends, a 65 year old Swede who has lived all over the world, but now resides primarily in his native Sweden draws a telling picture of the difference between the Scandinavians and the Americans. "In Sweden, we get health care and education for our tax dollars. In the US, you get a B2 bomber rotting away in a desert hangar."

[cigsandcoffee]

26. Look to Sweden for growing racism and ethnic strife

And if you want to see tough and punitive immigration laws with obtrusive requirements for new immigrants, the Scandinavians are a good place to start. And Stockholm is one of the most shallow and corporate cities flush with consumerist snobbery in all of Europe - there are "Saab people" and "Volvo people." I never figured out which one meant you were from the wrong side of the tracks, but they said it with conviction.

There are no Utopias out there, and America is right up near the top of the heap. I'm not claiming we're heavenly or anything, but I'll be damned if I'm going to judge this nation unfairly because we have a crappy guy at the helm for a few years. Do you judge your British friends over Thatcher?

[Union Thug]

50. You are knocking down straw men...

Stockholm is microscopically small compared to half of the North American continent where self-indulgence is so great that a large part of the adult population can't even find Iraq on the map, but proudly cheer-led for the great american quest for liberatin' or freedomin' or whatever the bullshit justification for the corporate led war in Iraq may have been at the moment.

But beyond that, having traveled from London to Moscow and many, many places in between, IMO Europeans are generally better informed and understand that they are citizens of the world to a much larger degree than Americans, in spite of whatever immigration policies you want to cite. We can go toe to toe in the minutae all night, but the devilish details are not the point (Volvo and Saab people? That's nothing compared to the violence that breaks out behind taverns across the nation by Chevy, Ford, Mopar nuts defending the superiority of their corporate logo). American culture (whatever the hell that is) is Huxleyesque in its widespread love and defense of Rand-inspired, greed is good, me-me-me consumerism and its psuedo-fascist inspired politics. I really believed in America as person that enjoyed the first wave of the fruits of the New Deal. But everything seemed to change with RayGun's Mourning in America. The corporate overthrow of the New Deal began their brainwashing of an entire generation. And here we are. I haven't felt national pride in over 20 years.

Re. Brits and Thatcherites - on a political level, yes. But from a higher vantage point that ignores a specific political period, the question is irrelevant.

[cigsandcoffee]

65. Of course when you travel you wind up with more informed people

The same is true when Europeans travel in America. Go deeper in to their cities, however, among people that stick to their own, and you will find an ignorance and shallowness to parrallel anything you'll find in the United Staes. Most people meeting travelers are on their best behaviour, and open to a new experience. Live with them for a while, and you'll see the facade crumble - all the predjudices, all the greed and envy, and all the shitty traits inherent to any large cluster of people who live and compete with each other for space.

[Union Thug]

114. A little presumptuous...

You make assumptions about my travel that are completely uniformed. Further, these assumptions led to conclusions and generalizations that are in stark contrast to my experiences in nearly every European country through which I've traveled.

[cigsandcoffee]

126. Well, our experiences vary

You gain a lot more when you actually live there for an extended time, IMO.

[Swamp Rat]

116. OK, I can agree with one of your posts, finally.

:D

I have lived on 4 continents and agree - people EVERYWHERE can be ignorant, petty, greedy, mean, etc.

[cigsandcoffee]

127. They sure as hell can

Some people are awful. I'm thankful for the good ones.

[babylonsister]

79. I agree, we Americans are not up to par.

I spoke to an Englishman in MX awhile ago, thought I made sense, and he talked circles around me.
I was into the cups a bit,as was he, but the fact that he had it all there info-wise was awesome.
Our country as a whole is pretty stupid. I'm trying to get out of that mold.

[bdamomma]

140. not enough informed/educated people in the US

they are seeing to that with not funding students who are going to college.

[MercutioATC]

17. Egad! A country barely 200 years old holds the world's "morality" title?

Frankly, we haven't been around long enough to claim any sort of "morality". Talk to me in a thousand years or so and we'll see where the U.S. stands...

... "I don't think there is a country in the world that has a deeper claim to morality" ...


:eyes:

[kestrel91316]

61. My Lai, Haditha............."claim to morality" ................... Hm,

my head is spinning.

[EFerrari]

70. You either have an underdeveloped sense of shame or

you haven't been paying attention. I sort of envy either possibility.

Our foreign policy isn't "transitory" when it encompasses most of the country's history. You might, for example, go check out why Hawaii is a state. That would be a good starting point. You can pass on how we got the Southwest even if people like Grant wrote home from that war that it made them ashamed to be fighting it.

And it's too late to tell us to take a flying leap. W did that when he got himself appointed president in 2000. We've been airborne for years now.

/typin'

[Blackthorn]

78. I'm sorry...

...but nothing your country has done to the international community in the last 60 years can be considered "moral". Without doubt there are some great American citizens worthy of the praise bestowed upon them. But to claim that America is some kind of shining light, or bastion of morality for the planet is not only arrogant and misguided, it's wrong.

Frankly, this Administration is just the icing on the cake.

[Random_Australian]

133. Whatever Mr. Clever. People ONLY judge, (with insufficient knowledge,

of course) transitory politicians you don't agree with.

Lucky everyone overseas is so stupid.

As for deeper claim to morality? When was that exactly? The 'transitory' slave ownership? The 'transitory' segregation laws? The 'transitory' KKK home base?

Sorry other Americans, but when someone talks about how their country is soooooooo moral (compared, of course, to the wicked decadent world outside) and sooooooooooooo wonderful and how the only thing that ever was wrong in America was the * admin.........

Well, you get the idea.

Made the earth a better place? Everyone does it, if you still believe that Americans are the great liberators, then I do not know what planet you are on.

Anyway, I will point out that a lot of Americans have done a lot of good. However, "deeper claim to morality" seems *ahem* a touch unfounded.

One last disclaimer: I am not saying America is a bad place, just a place like anywhere else, neither better nor worse in citizenship than many a nation.

[Eurobabe]

8. I agree with you, I move to Germany next Monday

and I will most likely stick with the Canadian thing. I get tired of defending the USA for having voted in a moron for second term, the war crimes, the freaking lunacy of BU$HCO, you name it. I keep telling my husband that as soon as our car arrives we need to ditch the Ohio license plate or we are bullseyes!

The world has never had a worse opinion of Americans. Bu$h managed to ruin everything in 6 yrs. Nice huh.

[babylonsister]

18. You're moving overseas? Is

hubby in the military, or because you can?
Good luck to you, PM me your address, because that sounds awesome and I wanna visit!
I'm serious and have read many posts; yeah, people love Americans, not the asshat in charge,
but there may come a time when they hate us all because of him.
I fear that.

[upi402]

16. I wear the red leaf in S.E. Asia

Expats and travellers want to know if you support Bush, I find. They are much better informed than Americans, and sophisticated enough to know that we hate their treasonous ways.

Apa Saudara dapat bichara Bahasa Indonesia?
Slamat jelaan
http://thorntree.lonelyplanet.com/categories.cfm?catid=23

[Truthiness Inspector]

22. Whoa

I was in Nice, France last month as well as Dubai, UAE. I didn't have any problems. I got razzed by a couple of guys in Nice, and that was it. I travel a lot though, so the little things don't bug me.

[Solly Mack]

38. I recently returned to Germany from a visit to the states

I was so happy to be back home...home being in Germany.

America felt foreign...alien. Different. Maybe I felt different and America was the same...doesn't matter really...the results are the same.

My German friends understood my happiness at being back but not without expressing sympathy that I felt that way...they were sad for me.

I felt safer once back on this side of the pond. How sad is that?

[Swamp Rat]

52. That's because aliens HAVE taken over the USA...

... alien LIZARDS from outer space! :hide:



Wie gehts? :hi:

[Solly Mack]

56. LOL...true. It goes well. Du?

Hey Swamp!!!
:)

[Swamp Rat]

77. I got a new roof on my house yesterday!

It's finally finished, just in time for hurricane season! :woohoo:

There is still a LOT of interior work to do, but at least I have protection from (most of) the elements. We still have lots of Tom DeLays and spiders coming in through all the holes in the walls and ceilings. :puke:

[Solly Mack]

86. Excellent on the roof! ((((Swamp)))) for keeping your sense of humor

I think I'd enjoy squashing bugs named Tom Delay.(so I'd name them sumptin else) I'm kinda partial to bugs of all tyrpes. :)

Here's hoping the interior work goes well and quickly!!!!

[Swamp Rat]

122. Du bist ein Entomologe?

Please make an exception for DeLay. After all, he is not from Earth anyway. :D

[babylonsister]

100. Ugh. I feel for ya, Swamp Rat! He's done here by 9 June, a few

more days. How lovely would it be if he was seriously indicted? Your pic speaks volumes and nothin' for nothin', the roaches are out in force this year, as are the red/killer ants. Ugh.

[Swamp Rat]

119. Yaay!!!

I look forward to the indictments!!! :bounce:

[uppityperson]

124. Congratulations on your roof, may it hold in place and in peace.

[mnhtnbb]

43. We're not moving--yet--but are building a place in Panama

We decided after the 04 election that we needed an escape hatch.
Unfortunately, our youngest is in 10th grade--and we don't want to move him
unnecessarily. We keep telling ourselves we're hoping for the best and planning for the worst, but it seems every day that brings a new atrocity from this administration draws us one day closer to retirement in Panama after 08 when our son graduates high school.

[Truthiness Inspector]

55. Panama is nice

And the people are friendly. Most of them like Americans too, and they use the U.S. dollar. I enjoy visiting Panama, and I know Americans who live there, and they have a grand old time.

[babylonsister]

104. Welcome to DU, and I'd love to talk to you about Panama! nt

[Truthiness Inspector]

115. Thanks

Panama is a unique country. Panama City is truly the crossroads of the Americas, a bustling city that many people forget even exists.

I enjoy Panama immensely, and I assume you do too. It's funny to tell people about the Locks and it sounds boring, until you go there, like to Miraflores, and you can't pry your eyes away. I've spent time in Gamboa too, but I have never made it to Colon.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

62. quoth the Raven, NEVERMORE

[TexasLawyer]

81. Australia

It is sad. Some friends of ours who emigrated to Australia called us yesterday to suggest we move there too, since America is turning into Nazi Germany.

[BooScout]

132. As an American living abroad....

I don't hide my nationality. Thankfully people here don't condemn the little guy for the idiot in charge.

What is this crap of masquerading as a Canadian that people suggest? Do some of you honestly think Canadians parade around Europe with Maple leafs stuck on their luggage and clothing? :eyes:

[babylonsister]

134. Where I go, there are people who like to blow up

places where foreigners, specifically Americans, go. Not the local people, but it does tend to make one think. Let's just say I don't advertise where I'm from, and if asked, I'll usually go the Canadian route.

[BooScout]

141. I hate to break it to you......

But most Canadians I know don't stick Maple Leafs on their luggage or their clothes. The only people I know that stick their flag all over everything are Americans.

[babylonsister]

142. Sigh. I didn't say I stuck maples leaves on anything. I just

don't feel compelled to admit I'm an American every time I'm asked, which is often.
I could say (and have) that I'm an Aussie, or German. Most people on that side of
the world can't distinguish between accents.
I also don't wear any t-shirts with anything involving the US. I prefer to blend in,
not stick out like a sore thumb.

[EFerrari]

143. And soccer fans. lol n/t