The last word on Jesse Macbeth

[grytpype]

For those of you who were waiting for the other shoe to drop on Jesse Macbeth... it seems his discharge papers (DD-214) have turned up. He claimed to be a decorated Ranger, deployed to Iraq, who killed at least 200 civilians with his own hand. The truth, according to his DD-214, is that he washed out of basic training at the rank of E-1 and was never deployed to Iraq.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/5/27/145957/376
http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=3957

[Drum]

1. Ha ha

loser

[Poll_Blind]

2. Bless you- thank you for bringing this to our attention!

Man, so much disinfo...

PB

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. This bozo has hurt the rep

of anti war veteran's organizations and has aided the cause of those who say no atrocities have been committed in Iraq. The sad thing is that IVAW will now probably think twice before they help a vet in need, even though that vet is the real thing.

[Disturbed]

4. We need to be more sceptical not less.

His statement smelled fishy and his bona fidas were debunked right here on DU. The Vets who sponsored him should have vetted him more closely. His type of bogus story does much harm.

[PublicRadioVet]

7. A DD 214 is the first thing that should be asked for!

No anti-war organizing should be bringing former Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, or Marines into the fold, without first asking for a DD 214, and making some phone calls to the individual's last unit of assignment to verify that they are who they say they are. Macbeth could have been easily busted, but the IVAW chose not to do a day's preliminary homework. Now, nobody who got wind of this case is going to take IVAW at their word. Yes, harmfull!

[Igel]

42. The debunking

was mirrored right here on DU.

It wasn't DU that first doubted him. He had a large rah-rah chorus here.

It's called critical thinking; far too often it's reserved for what people disagree with. If you're a scholar, that's the path to loads of crappy research. Sure, it highlights the errors in the opposing point of view; but you never find the errors in your own.

[grytpype]

5. Here's what IVAW has to say about this:

http://ivaw.org

Questions have been raised about Jesse MacBeth and his claims of service in Iraq. MacBeth came to Iraq Veterans Against the War in January 2006 asking for help, and the organization and its members extended itself to help him in various ways. Assisting veterans is one of the founding principles of IVAW and it is a mission that we take seriously. After looking into his recent claims, we have learned that Jesse is not what he represented himself to be. Accordingly, IVAW does not in any way endorse Jesse MacBeth or any of his accounts involving military service. He -- and he alone -- is responsible for them. IVAW was not aware of the creation of the video program featuring MacBeth, and did not authorize use of our logo in the program.

The timing of the widespread circulation of the MacBeth video interestingly coincides with the ongoing military investigation of the recent Marine massacre of two dozen civilians (including women and children) in Haditha, – what is being termed as an atrocity by one member of Congress (R). MacBeth’s false statements unfortunately have played into the hands of those who would deny that any atrocities whatsoever are occurring in Iraq. While such murders by military personnel are reprehensible, ultimate blame for these actions must be placed on the responsible commanding officers, Donald Rumsfeld, and the Bush administration who have created the context for chaos in through an illegal and unjust war and occupation which they admit has no end in sight.

IVAW is a young and growing organization of courageous veterans and active duty soldiers in the “War on Terror” whose mission is to end the war in Iraq through immediate withdrawal of troops. We believe that veterans should be given the benefits they deserve upon returning home, and that the United States owes reparations to the Iraqi people for the destruction of their country. The invasion and occupation of Iraq was ill conceived and dishonestly sold to the American people, and IVAW members have the special vantage point of first-hand experience of the war to know why it’s wrong and why we need to bring the troops home now.

[INDIA]

26. The IVAW looks pretty stupid on this one

And now they are trying to cover their ass.

"and the organization and its members extended itself to help him in various ways. Assisting veterans is one of the founding principles of IVAW and it is a mission that we take seriously."

Oh yeah sure, trying to "assist" him by posting his bullshit story and allowing his to join your organization without any backround check.

IVAW is going to feel this one for a LONG time.

Note: I could be confused on this one. Since all the sites scrambled to distance themselves from this idiot, I'm not 100% sure if IVAW backed his story. All I saw was the IVAW logo on the interview, which they CLAIM "was and did not authorize use of our logo in the program"

[Tsiyu]

6. A little vetting of their spokespeople is certainly in order

Macbeth was talking about my son's battalion.

I am glad I missed the whole thing, out of town when all this hit.

It would have hurt my heart. I can promise you, my son did not return from Iraq with any lighthearted view of war or of killing people.

We need to thoroughly investigate the true atrocities, and do the same to those who claim to have participated.

Recent events should leave us all mindful of not jumping to immediate conclusions over ANYTHING.

[PublicRadioVet]

8. Again, I have a larger problem here

And my problem is with the various individuals and groups in this country who very much want to believe the absolute worst about American troops serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. Instead of saying, "Oh my God, this is so unthinkably terrible!" people are saying "AHA! We knew it all along, the troops are a bunch of crazed vampires!"

My problem is not with people against the occupation of Iraq. My problem is with people who are in a hurry to think that every unfounded rumor about troops committing attrocities, is 100% true, and that senseless bloodshed is the norm for all troops currently in Iraq, or who have been to Iraq.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Today's generation of soldiers does not need to be demonized, as it was in Vietnam, simply because people are against American involvement in Iraq. This is why I hate it when ROTC facilities get vandalized or people try to kick recruiters out of schools. It's not the troops' fault if the guy in the White House is an asshole. It's not the troops fault they've been given a near-impossible mission in Iraq.

Can we please acknowledge that the majority of troops are doing the best they can, for the Iraqis as well as their own country?

[Scoody Boo]

9. My problem is similar...

the absolute glee with which these stories are recieved is pretty much sickening. If even a rumor of such atrocities comes up, there are fifty threads about the evil US troops murdering civilians in cold blood.

I do feel outrage at troops who would do this. Should a soldier murder a civilian in cold blood, he should have the full weight of the law fall upon him and face what ever consequences he has coming.

That being said, for all the threads started "US TROOPS MASSACRE CIVILIANS," I never see one when a car bomb blows up and 30 kids WHO WERE TARGETED ON PURPOSE by insurgents are killed. Is the killing of civilians by insurgents okay?

Are some Iraqis worth more than others? If this is not so, then why are only the ones "killed" by American troops worthy of outrage.

I feel outrage at innocents being targeted no matter who does it, because to me, no innocent life is worth less than another no matter who kills them.

[PublicRadioVet]

13. Absolutely! Nobody cares when some Islamist blows up kids!!

But let a rumor spread about a Ranger or Marine who supposedly shot a woman in the back, and it's all over the place.

We've got Islamists and their Sunni/Baath sympathizers, murdering Iraqis on a daily basis.

Where is the DU outrage over that?

Or is it still all Bush's fault?

I'd have an easier time swallowing the DU outrage if it seemed equally distributed. But it's not.

[Tom Bombadil]

16. America holds itself to a higher moral standard

than the sunni/islamist terrorists. That's why the slaughter of innocents by out of control marines fosters such outrage. Aren't we supposed to be creating a peaceful and democratic Iraq? If we are, then surely, we should be setting a better example than that of the marines who slaughtered women and children in Haditha.

[tabasco]

17. You seem to be selectively reading threads.

I see outrage when there is violence in Iraq, no matter who did it.

You seem to have arrived here with an agenda.

There are anti-military types here, no doubt. They have a right to their opinion.

Of course, nobody has a right to lie and distort.

[PublicRadioVet]

23. You're right, I have an agenda

Having lurked at DU for awhile, I grew tired of the tendency to highlight every misdeed, real or imagined, of the U.S. Armed Forces in Iraq. As a member of same, I categorically reject the notion that you can't support the troops without supporting Bush. I also would wager that every report of a civilian death at U.S. hands gets ten threads at DU, to the one or two threads generated by a civilian death at the hands of the "freedom fighter" insurgency.

If I have an agenda, it's to stick up for my fellow soldiers, who seem to be taking it in the ass from all parties: from Bush, who sent them there; from liberals, who hate them because they hate Bush and war; and from the Islamists (aka: freedom fighters) who simply want to slaughter anyone who is not also an Islamist.

[tabasco]

27. So liberals hate soldiers?

You just compromised your mission.

I'm an Airborne Ranger with a CIB, two combat tours, ten years in the infantry, three more years as a remf, and I'm as liberal as they come.

You must not have lurked here for very long to make such a stupid statement.

I think I hear rimjob calling your name!

[Scoody Boo]

35. I am a former Ranger also...

awarded my CIB for Panama and was in the actual fighting in Desert Storm, rolled to 7 miles from Baghdad.

I have seen the troops take it pretty bad on here. I have lurked on here for years. I saw the daughter of a brother Ranger who was wounded in IRaq called a babykiller on this site.

Jesse MacBeth was instantly recieved as a hero here. Defended until it was so obvious he was a fraud he could not be defended anymore.

The only people who ever defend the troops here are veterans. Or at least it seems that way.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Bombadil]

20. I call bullshit on you!

Provide me with one shred of evidence (link) where 30 kids were deliberatley targeted and blown up by insurgents?

[PublicRadioVet]

22. Here yah go, courtesy of the "freedom fighter" network...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/13/AR2005071300336.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4678207.stm

[Tom Bombadil]

29. The US

miltary was the target in that incident, not the Iraqi children.

[Scoody Boo]

36. So how about some...

outrage at the collateral damage. You are so quick with it when it AMERICAN collateral damage. Or like I keep saying, dead Iraqi civilians are only worthy of you notice when they are killed by Americans.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scoody Boo]

40. Don't think you have a scoop...

I ADMITTED to have an account there. I like to be able to discuss gun issues, there are a lot of vets there.

[Tom Bombadil]

52. The point

is, didn't we go into Iraq to liberate the people and to encourage the spread of peace and democracy? If so, then we set ourselves to a higher moral standard. The is the crucial difference between civillians being killed at the hands of US guns and bombs and civillians being killed by the insurgents.

[gmaki]

31. Another dishonest argument...

Go away freep.

[Toots]

21. "Should a soldier murder a civilian in cold blood,"

How many dead Iraqis were wearing uniforms?

[Scoody Boo]

33. AK-47 are uniform enough...

The car bombing victims were wearing uniforms also? Why? That is all I want to know. If you are so outraged about civilians dying, why do you not address the civilians dying at insurgent hands.

[Catrina]

43. I'll address it. Every single person, not just in this country, but across

the globe, expressed outrage more than three years ago over this war. The outrage was about the obvious lies being told, the possibility of innocent men, women and children being killed once the war began by insurgents, by bombs, by outsiders ~ you're a little late asking for outrage, we've been outraged for years watching the carnage in Iraq which includes more than 2500 US troops now.

Your talking point is old and worn out and its purpose was sorted out years ago. We know the talking points, just so you know. It isn't worth wasting time on.

[Scoody Boo]

48. And what are YOUR talking points?

To not acknowledge that insurgents kill civilians? I'm sorry, but the deaths of civilians are occurring on both sides. That is a fact involving REAL LIVES that mean something. You just ignore them because they are not a talking point for you.

[Catrina]

50. The truth is and always has been my talking point. Only those who

who are defending lies, need talking points ~ it is an impeachable offense, not to mention a national and international crime to invade a country that has given you no cause to do so. That's the truth, that's the only talking point I need. Everything that happened after the original crime was committed merely adds to the major crime that was the war itself.

To not acknowledge that insurgents kill civilians? Of course civilians are being killed by insurgents. I've said that twice already ~ If you were listening before the war you would know that this amongst other things, was predicted. Why are you so shocked that it came true?

There are vicious, brutal people in the ME (as there are everywhere). Bush unleashed them on the Iraqi people when he condemned their country to a state of chaos and lawlessness. Now, do you get it? Those of us who recognized this fact (the existence of these criminals) feared that the Iraqi people would fall victim to them. Why did Bush not protect the people from this criminal element? International law requires that the civilian population be protected from such criminals. Now, they are free to roam around Iraq. But Rummy thinks it's all good. 'Freedom is messy' he said.

The Neocons tried to twist one of the results of their own crimes (insurgents killing Iraqis) into some kind of talking point. Of course it didn't work. They underestimate the intelligence of the American people once they know the truth. As I said, it's an old, overused talking point and only reminds people of the enormity of the crime that is the War in Iraq.

Otoh, I suppose we do need a reminder of all the other results of this invasion. So, thank you for reminding me. There are so many consequences to what they did when they got this country into a war that never needed to be fought. Insurgents killing Iraqis is just one more of sub-crimes they are responsible for. I hope that answers your question.

Why are you Democrat btw?

[Scoody Boo]

51. Am I a Democrat?

Have been for a while. Voted twice for Ronald Reagan, though. Held my nose and swallowed hard when the best the Democratic Party could come up with in 2004 was John Kerry. THAT was a bitter pill but I managed to swallow it.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scoody Boo]

12. So do the insurgents. n/t

[PublicRadioVet]

14. Yes I include the jarheads

God bless those macho fools. Yeah, they are fanatic. About being Marines. Not about killing necessarily. And they get stuck with too much of the slander because they have been stuck with a lot of the fighting.

[Bucky]

24. Murtha got it right. They're overwhelmed, stressed out, left alone...

not to mention undersupplied and pretty much forgotten by the media, save the occasional roll call of the KIAs. Those with life alterning injuries are shunted aside like a family embarrassment. That's what pisses me off more than anything else. Obviously military rules of engagement must be rigorously enforced and violations of those rules punished. But whe really appals me is the great likelihood that the people responsible for creating that situation--Bush, Rumsfeld, Chalabi, Cheney--will completely get away with it.

Frankly, I do hold them responsible for all the deaths and chaos and injuries and future animosities spinning off from this war. This is exactly what the antiwar movement warned about happening.

[peacebaby3]

11. Thank you and Scoody Boo for those posts. We have a new OIF Marine Vet

posting here on the board and he made a really great post here:

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1299122#1299741>

Post #12 from Liberal OIF Vet.


On edit:

I can't spell!

[Yollam]

18. There will always be a certain percentage who kill for fun.

Just watching REAL footage of troops in Moore's F-911 shows you that. They are TRAINED to dissociate the people they are shooting at from any sense of common humanity. It's only much later, when the memories resurface, that that reality sinks in. The troops are mostly very young, from low-income backgrounds and are not all that well-educated. All that considered, most of them behave fairly honorably, considering the fact that they are carrying out an illegal, unconscionable, murderous invasion. But some commit atrocities. And most of those who do don't go looking for a spotlight to tell the world about it like "MacBeth" did. That's why I never believed his story, he just seemed fake.

But at the same time, I know that bad things happen over there, and wouldn't believe or disbelieve such claims in the future without looking at the evidence or lack thereof.

And I don't think that the troops have been demonized at all. We are being exhorted to support them from bumper stickers and printouts every where we go. If you insist that only the positive aspects of our illegal occupation be covered, and crimes committed by our side be ignored, as the RW troll Vetwife did, you are insisting on a lie.

[Tom Bombadil]

19. Do you really

think the troops in Iraq give a shit about the Iraqi people? You seem to have a very blinkered view of the US military that isn't based on the ugly reality.

[PublicRadioVet]

25. Having known troops who went and served in Iraq, I say...

...yes, some of us really DO CARE about Iraqis.

Do I really have to start dragging up examples of how the common troop has been involved in humanitarian efforts in Iraq? Or Afghanistan? I'll do it, if you want.

[Tom Bombadil]

28. I'll grant that some troops may care about Iraqis,

but a majority!? I suspect that the humanitarian efforts you refer to are not the norm for the military.

[Scoody Boo]

34. Have you been there...

to know what you are talking about? I was there. Not as a troop, but working for a security contractor.

[PublicRadioVet]

45. No (knock on wood)

My name has been on the short list once or twice. My unit was activated in 2003 but remained here in the states supporting the directorates at the base. Occasionally the Army reaches down and cross-levels a few of us to units being sent out. We just lost 12 more enlisted to a deployment to Iraq. So you never know.

[Scoody Boo]

49. I went there with a security company.

Twice.

[Tom Bombadil]

53. And what was your impression,

assuming you are telling the truth about going to Iraq. For all I know you could be making it up. Do the troops truly give a damn about the ordinary people of Iraq?

[peacebaby3]

41. My husband was in Iraq and he and many people we know did care. I used to

send care packages to him and many of the other guys in the unit. Most of the time they would ask me to send things for the Iraqi children and some of their families instead of items for themselves. My husband and I even talked with the Red Cross to see if we could adopt some of the children that were in an orphanage in al-Hilla, but we could not because we are not Muslim.

[Catrina]

44. I'm sorry that you know people like that ~ I would say they are in the

minority if they do exist ~ I'm glad that I do not know anyone who would take pleasure in the deaths of innocent people simply to forward some sick agenda. We have an administration who certainly does so, but thank God I don't know any of them personally ~

Too many of us have friends and family members who have served honorably in the military to have supported this war in the first place. It was clear that the troops were being used for an agenda that the American people were not told about. Those are the people I am outraged by. It is they who are responsible for the carnage in Iraq and for every incident of violence that has and will occur there as a result of their lies.

If such people as you describe exist, it's best to ignore and avoid them, they are no better than the cabal that caused all of this. Anyone delighting in death is a sick individual imo. I met plenty of them in the beginning of this war, cheering on the killing of 'ragheads'. Laughing and making jokes about the torture in Abu Ghraib. Rush Limbaugh comes to mind. But I have never met a single person who opposes this war who was happy about the deaths of innocent people.

I am glad this jerk was lying. It means there are over 200 Iraqis alive who, had he been telling the truth, would be dead. And DU debunked his story almost the minute it was posted here. Most who initially thought it was true, were relieved when they learned it was not.

[Catrina]

46. Yes, we can acknowledge that ~ and it has been stated here on DU

too many time to keep track of. Many DUers have family and friends in Iraq and Afghanistan and many are veterans. I have seen more support for the troops here than on any other board. Real support, not lip-service.

The troops in Iraq have not been demonized. The administration has ~ had there been enough outrage at the lies told by this administration none of these soldiers would have been in the situation they are in and the outrage should be directed at those who are to blame.

I don't know where you saw demonization of the troops. Many I know are working to get the homeless Iraq veterans off the streets, eg. All of them are anti-this-war. None of them are so-called troop supporters ~ they work to send supplies to the troops, to write letters to those who have no one at home to write to them. They fight with their representatives to stop the cuts in Veterans' benefits. None of them are war supporters.

On this board since I've been here, I've seen mostly support for the troops and demonization for those who used and abused them. I think your concerns are unfounded, or at the very least, misdirected.

What we cannot control however, is the image of the US these incidents and Abu Ghraib has painted of the US around the world. The troops were put in an untenable position by a lying administration and there should be extreme outrage always when a government does this, to its own people and to the troops who take the brunt of their decision. Had that outrage existed, none of this would be happening right now. War supporters need to take responsibility for what they have supported. Some have, but not nearly enough to end it and get the troops out of there.

You need not worry about people here. They know who is to blame and many predicted that this war would end up this way, while the liars who started it told us it would last 'months, weeks maybe' in order to get support for it.

[Leopolds Ghost]

15. Statement from Jesse Macbeth's sister

On edit: alleges herself to be Jesse Macbeth's sister.

Posted on an Army Ranger Site, as seen on wikipedia:

http://www.armyranger.com/bb/viewtopic.php?p=310279#310279

Jesse is my half brother. I really feel the need to speak out on this since it has been a long time coming. Let me tell you...I am finally glad someone has finally discovered he is a fraud.

My brother went to army boot camp but got kicked out after only four weeks for an inability to adapt to military life and was sent to a mental hospital in Georgia. I still have his military file.

We grew up in the Arizona foster care system. Our mother is schizophrenic, a drug addict, and very abusive. Jesse spent the majority of his childhood in mental hospitals.

He convinced me back in 2002 that he was sick from Hep C and in need of surgery. I took him in. When I discovered that he was faking and stealing from me, I asked him to leave. I drove him all they way back to Arizona (I was going to school in California) and by the time I got back the next morning he had managed to empty my bank account, my roommates bank account, and max out my credit card. I weas almost evicted from my apartment because of all of this.

He somehow convinced people in Pima, Arizona that we got shot in the back in Iraq and his story just took off from there.

My brother is mentally ill. I don't know where my cute little baby brother went or how he got replaced by this scary monster. I don't know how to help him, so I had to stop contact with him all together.

At least now, maybe he'll be forced to get some help and get back on his medication.

I am very afraid of him. I pray that he'll get some help now before he hurts himself or someone else.

[Imajika]

32. Such an obvious fraud...

This Jesse Macbeth (aka Jesse Adam Al-Zaid) was so clearly a complete idiot and obvious fraud that I am still somewhat surprised just how many people actually believed it. Then again, a lot of people also believed Karl Rove was indicted on May 12th......

I suppose it's true what they say about a sucker being born everyday.

[Scoody Boo]

37. You say the right things on here...

they will ALWAYS believe you. True or not. Me, I don't believe anything. Ever, at least not at first. If it is true and passes a smell test (and not just plain stink), I'll believe it in time.

[Imajika]

47. Scoody...

You say the right things on here...they will ALWAYS believe you.

That is sadly true, and I'd guess true on every political forum of every stripe.

I don't add much these days, but I have followed your posts (as well as a few others) on this subject, along with OldLeftyLawyer's posts (along with a few others) regarding the supposed May 12 Rove indictment. It is nice to see skeptics still around who believe in evidence and facts rather than wishful thinking and fantasy.

Once upon a time an obvious fraud by the name of Bev Harris roamed this place spouting all kinds of nonsense about how she had the equivalent of the Pentagon Papers, about how she had to hide for fear of her life. Bev was a hero here, and the near unquestioning loyalty and worship she commanded from many was absolutely sickening. She confirmed for people what they wanted to hear - that is, we couldn't actually be losing elections so the Republicans MUST be stealing them. She had the breakthrough, the evidence was all coming to together - she was going to bring down a President.....

Problem was, this woman was an utter fraud and BS artist. But then, DU is an echo chamber sometimes, and a fraud like Bev or an obviously false story such as the one Jesse MacBeth was pimping can flourish in places like this so long as they tell people what they want to hear. I am glad to see people like yourself stand up, question and debunk garbage stories and con artists.

We should be about truth, not feel good fantasy. I think I actually see more and more people on DU these days willing to go against the grain and blow holes in bogus, but otherwise popular stories - and that I think says something pretty good about how this forum is evolving.

[RandomKoolzip]

38. "Every MINUTE," not "Every day."

The suckers outnumber the skeptics by 800,000 to one, and DU is just one place that's lousy with 'em.