Jesse Macbeth, Jessie Macbeth

[fun n serious]

I just phoned the IVAW, they said Jessie has resighned his membership and is no longer a member. They are investigating if he was hired by someone.. No further info right now.

[SoFlaJet]

1. OK I'll ask

who is Jesse Macbeth

[mcscajun]

7. The subject of quite a few threads...here's a link to the original

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x212031


and my only post before this on another thread about it:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1260163&mesg_id=1263765

[SammyWinstonJack]

39. Include me in that question?

[Scout1071]

2. IVAW?

Some of us don't speak military (or fake military).

[DTinAZ]

3. Iraq Veterans Against the War (link)

http://www.ivaw.net

DT

[fun n serious]

4. I think someone hired him...

The fraud Jesse MacBeth.

Irar Veterans Againt War, he was a member there and has resigned.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1253554&mesg_id=1253554

[BOHICA06]

9. No ..... he was pulling this as early as 2004

He was claiming veteran discrimination in a coffee shop incident in April 2004.

REMF DORK WANNABE - if he served at all.

http://arizona.indymedia.org/mail.php?id=17198

[genie_weenie]

12. I think it's much deeper

When people are convinced a course of action is wrong (Iraq) some will go to any lengths to fight it. In this case it's propaganda of War Crimes. All it takes is someone pouring a little bile in one ear and honey in the other to convince someone to go out and lie, lie, lie.

The problem is this is ammo for the Hannity's of the world who will turn around as use this for their own propaganda to smear someone like Murtha. And of course it diminishes the outrage over true war crimes.

This type of propaganda is as old as warfare itself.

[MH1]

17. OR when people are trying to discredit a movement or potential leaders,

they will go to any lengths and tell any lies. Including planting fakes that can later be used to discredit the movement.

Read up on Winter Soldier.

[PublicRadioVet]

67. A Republican plant?

If true, then that is an even bigger scandal than Macbeth simply being a poseur.

Somehow, I don't think Rove or anyone remotely related to the White House is that dumb.

It could be someone from the blog world. But what sane person ruins his reputation, and gets his face and photo spread around the country in this fashion, just for a blogger?

I really have to wonder what made Macbeth do this. I really do.

[Scout1071]

22. This story stinks to high heaven.

Who in the hell would kick a soldier out of a coffee shop? Sounds like right wing propoganda bullshit.

This kid sounds like he has some mental issues. Either that, or he is doing somebody's dirty work by being a plant.

Either way, the story is bullshit.

[genie_weenie]

35. Total plant

Does a number of discredit jobs: 1) Actual War Crimes, 2) Anti-War Vets such as myself are discredited, 3) Right-to-War Crowd will harp on this being a sloppy Leftist plot and declare it shows the "Left's" hatred of the Serive (and servicemembers) by showing such an obvious fake.

[Blue_Tires]

44. true....

[genie_weenie]

5. So many piled onto his story

despite all the problems because they *really wanted* it to be true.

This is the worst scenario it takes the emphasis off the true war crimes. The War itself and the recent incidents.

[davepc]

8. Same with the Rove indictment thing

One can let their desire of proof of malfeasance override the examination of the facts in evidence.

[sweetheart]

19. some didn't pile in

It was suspicious from the outset, and the right is baiting the board
with ghost stories to weaken and reduce trust. I think most persons
with any military exposure did not even need to look at the video,
as the stills showed a guy not capable of getting in the rangers.

[Scout1071]

23. I didn't pile on. Story sounds suspicious from the get-go.

And I think the verdict is still out on the Leopold story.

[genie_weenie]

107. Just read some of the responses

on this thread alone. The idea that is emerging is it doesn't matter if Jessie's story is a complete fabrication, the FACT that other atrocities have occurred is enough for us to listen to and give credence to his argument. That sort of thinking leads to the "IF I want it to be true bad enough it is True" and the universe doesn't work that way.

[eridani]

55. People piled on because it was plausible

Remember My Lai?

[slackmaster]

74. I found MacBeth's story implausible BECAUSE of My Lai

People in the military are taught about it. I think we've learned something from that tragedy.

:nuke:

[genie_weenie]

86. That's a rather poor

justification. Everytime anyone says a massacre was committed we are to belive them? I'm not going to get into a back and forth, but what is at stake here is big. People are dying and an incident like MacBeth hinders real progress.

IMO, he was a plant to discredit the IVAW, True Anti-War Vets, reporters who may break war crimes, and in a subtle move liberals. Because the right will be able to use this to show how little the left thinks of servicemembers by trotting out this obvious fake.

[eridani]

145. The part about shooting the kids was obviously over the top

However, there have been quite a few civilian deaths, and people with a lot of firepower at their disposal and under constant threat of random death have been known to go off.

The real stories seem to be more trigger-happy events instead of the planned brutality of knocking off family members. Still, there are those Seymour Hersch reports from Abu Ghraib of raping kids in front of their parents.

The fact is that the very nature of an unprovoked attack against a comparatively defenseless country sets the stage for who knows what.

The only people who can really be expected to nail this as a fake are people who are intimately familiar with what Army Rangers and their uniforms are supposed to look like. Given everything else that we know has happened, why should anybody else suspect something off-kilter?

Thinking of that fake Kaloogian photo, it's reassuring to know that bullshit is going to get outed quickly these days. Thank heavens for that, at least.

[genie_weenie]

156. The true question is this:

Do you personally believe incidents like Haditha are common practice ala Luzon and other previous Wars or more aberrant incidents? Are these incidents standard operating procedure or due to the a mix of bad ingredients?

I do not believe that US Forces are operating as they have done in previous wars (Seminole Wars, Philippines, etc). But that does not mean many innocents haven't been slaughtered by 1000lb J-Dams and 155mm Howitzer shells as well as .50 cal rounds flying around the area. But, US Forces are not routinely going into small villages along the Euphrates and just killing everyone as a mission.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1272231&mesg_id=1273089

[progressivebydesign]

No.. I'd say 98% were skeptical or wanting more info.

I read all the threads, and I can only recall a few posts wherein someone totally bought into what he was saying. I was in a mode of... not sure, he's aligned with IVAW, etc., and googled him to find out more. I'm pretty shocked at people here who have attempted to chastise DUers for buying into his scam, when in fact, it was quite the opposite. Why are some people pushing that idea, when it was clear that it was not the case?

[proud patriot]

143. I agree most were skeptical from the begining

[genie_weenie]

154. Perhaps I hit a non-representative sample

You stated you read all the threads. I admit I did not. The ones I read had the real fire and brimstone screeching at those not believing his story. I did say many not all, perhaps some or a very loud few would have been more accurate.

[Sammy Pepys]

6. It's old news, but....

I showed the original thread to a co-worker who is a legitimate Ranger vet, and the string of cuss words that came from his mouth was pretty intense, even for him. He was offended that the guy was impersonating a Ranger, but was really offended that anyone would think "that sloppy fuck" (his words) would ever be a Ranger.

[Fridays Child]

10. For what it's worth, it appears that his name was changed, in 1986.

Here's a link to the Pima County Superior Court search tool: http://www.cosc.co.pima.az.us/record_search

Edit: He was two years old, at the time.

[fun n serious]

11. Looks like a Muslim name.

For what its worth.

[Scout1071]

36. For some reason, I thought "Jesse MacBeth" sounded like a phony name.

I mean....MacBeth?

[Pacifist Patriot]

40. Good grief. He was two!

[Bandit]

13. Wasn't he also spit on by dirty hippies?

:shrug: Some people will believe anything...

[davepc]

15. He was actually...or so he claims.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1264056#1264455

[tabasco]

14. No doubt an effort to discredit IVAW.

Many here swallowed it all.

[BOHICA06]

26. What's to swallow?

This is like lethal injection ... no swallowing needed. And it appears the effort was entirely on the IVAW part ... "Trust but Verify". Piece of advice - When it begins to sound like a bad Rambo movie ..... it isn't true - ya' dump f*ucks!

[DTinAZ]

16. Bech warrant issued last Friday in WA

for JESSE ADAM MACBETH involving violation of court orders of protection, assault in the fourth degree:

http://www.co.pierce.wa.us/cfapps/linx/calendar/GetCriminalCase.cfm?cause_num=06-1-01994-8

DT

[troubleinwinter]

20. Whoa...

On top of Credit Card fraud in Arizona 2004: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1253554&mesg_id=1264040

[elehhhhna]

42. With a rap sheet like that he's GOTTA be a Mepublican!

[annabanana]

59. the filings links on that page don't work.... . . . . n/t

[MH1]

18. They should post a statement on their website

after verifying as many facts as they can. (If they cannot be sure if he is for real or not they should just say that, but at least say that that he does not represent them and they don't vouch for his story.)

[Pacifist Patriot]

38. They have posted a preliminary statement.

[MH1]

47. Good statement - doesn't call him a fake, just says unverified.

Good approach.

IVAW Statement on MacBeth Video

Iraq Veterans Against the War recently learned of a video interview with Jesse MacBeth that directs viewers to IVAW’s website and phone number. IVAW was not made aware of the creation of this video program and our input on it was never sought by its producers. Jesse MacBeth is not a spokesperson for IVAW and any claims made by MacBeth about his service have not been verified. We are currently investigating these claims and will have a full statement pending its resolution.

[Leopolds Ghost]

56. So Jesse "Rathered" Seattle Indymedia, and Simultaneously Fooled Everyone

(Including his detractors) into thinking he was endorsed by IVAW.

Classic psy-op. Pretending to be a "tar baby" as Rather (or Tony Snow) would put it.)

IVAW didn't have to embrace him or know who he was -- he impersonated a representative of IVAW.

(as opposed to just a member -- this is why they should be careful w/ credentials because the US is rife with people who buy camos and say "I'm a vet!")

[MH1]

61. It seems to me, buying this guy's story w/out verification is far worse

than getting in front of a story that turns out to be wrong.

Just sayin.

(to a segment of DU, not to you.)

[Bucky]

126. Absolutely. When I viewed the video, he struck me as being unhinged a bit

As a former social worker (and as a current teacher) I've dealt with lots of people--some marginal, some well adjusted sociopaths--who lie so convincingly they start to believe their own BS. Macbeth's account was so far over the top, so out of whack with even the worst horror stories I've heard from actual vets, I just couldn't believe it whole cloth. Of course I detest this war so much I tried to keep an open mind--maybe he was just exaggerating actual atrocities, maybe he was too freaked out from the trauma of serving there that his mind was constructing nightmares...

But after reading the words of several debunkers here on DU, I'm going back to my first impression. He's a sad guy with some perceptional issues and probably not even a combat vet; possibly using a fake name. I doubt Rove or associates are in on this--it's not their MO. But somebody was certainly using this delusional guy to further their own anti-IVAW agenda. A crude smear too marginal to matter. We should expect a few more between now and November.

[rman]

21. I guess this is a good time to be gullible, and just take your word on it?

[Rosemary2205]

24. HAHAHAHA the stupid fuck had to run his mouth

now the wrath of vets countrywide is going to rain down on his pathetic little wannabe head. LOL Poor schmuck. LOL

[tuvor]

25. Can someone corroborate this?

I trust you'll forgive me if I don't take your post at face value.

[DTinAZ]

27. I can

I've been trying to call them on and off for over 24 hours, and after getting their voicemail each time (which states that they're usually in the office Tuesdays and Thursdays), a person finally picked up this morning and verified that Jesse Macbeth did indeed resign his membership in IVAW. They haven't responded to emails that some of us have sent, nor have they posted any sort of disclaimer about this on their website.

DT

[tuvor]

30. Thanks!

[tabasco]

28. I don't know about IVAW, but when I joined Vets For Peace ...

I had to send them a copy of my DD-214.

I would hope IVAW takes the same precautions.

[DTinAZ]

29. no, they seem to operate on the honor system...

...if you go to their site and click on the Join link, you'll be able to see the membership form that people can sign and submit. No other documentation is required.

DT

[tabasco]

32. That is simply asking for problems like this.

I hope they change their procedures to avoid these jerks in the future.

I wonder if the guy has any service at all.

[brentspeak]

43. Bad idea

If you don't check up on people, individuals like the Jesse/Jessie Con-artist will burn you.

[DTinAZ]

31. the video will be removed from peacefilms.org "ASAP"

see:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1260163&mesg_id=1265708

DT

[Igel]

33. I'm seriously beginning to wonder what

"critical thinking" means to a lot of people. It seems to mean "criticizing people on the other side of the political/ideological/class divide and disbelieving anything they say."

But those are the things that the conscious application critical thinking skills is precisely *less* important for in some ways: One's prone to subject whatever the 'enemy' says to withering criticism and instinctively distrust it--sometimes "criticism" is even wrongly taken to mean "critique", which is also a problem.

But it's the stuff we *want* to believe that needs the conscious application critical thinking skills.

This kid goes and says he helped kill something like 220 civilians; because he says it in order to say bad things about a war and a president we dislike, some think he's some sort of hero, instead of a depraved, weak-willed mass-murderer. Ask if he should be imprisoned, some answer 'no', he was just following orders. Uh-huh. Then when it turns out he's not really a depraved, weak-willed mass-murderer--just a simple snake-oil salesman, or perhaps tetched--people defend him and try to show he's really as evil to the core as he wanted us to believe. Mind boggling.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

37. "Mind boggling" finally a rational approach to the issue

whatever this online phenomenon was, snake-oil salesman or whistle-blower, it was put down with amazing speed, which is the scariest element in the whole episode.

[fun n serious]

34. A short statement

There is a statment.

http://www.ivaw.net/

[rman]

41. That's what i've been waiting for

Now i don't have to take just anyone's word for it.

[mom cat]

45. He might be a badly affected vet with severe PTSD. He might not be a

plant, just someone who can't cope. I do a lot of work with PTSD sufferers and MacBeth certainly looked the part with the shallow affect and the almost dissociated nature of his speech, both of which are common during the numbing phase of PTSD. I think he is in need of compassion, not bashing.

[Llewlladdwr]

46. If there were any evidence that he was a vet...

then perhaps compassion would be in order. As there isn't, and in fact a whole lot of evidence to the contrary, I'm content to say that he's a damned liar who's done serious damage to the anti-war movement.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

50. be he vet or liar, his film damages nothing...

we will only believe what is comfortable. If it's hard to imagine that women and children die daily in Iraq at the hands of our troops we can simply decide it's not true, right?

[Scoody Boo]

52. If spokesmen like Jesse MacBeth...

are the only ones who come forward, I will not believe it at all.

[hogwyld]

58. Maybe the messenger is false

But his message of the holocaust rings true. Look at the site to see what we have done:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=5632

[Jeffersons Ghost]

62. Like most people, scooby boo, you'll only believe what's comfortable

no matter who comes forward and no matter how much proof they furnish. For example: how many women and children have died in Iraq and were they ALL terrorists? I bet you don't even care enough to know.

[Scoody Boo]

66. Believe me, I care...

I supported the war wholeheartedly. I worked two six month contracts over there. But I have gotten digusted with the whole thing. Yes, I find it tragic that children and innocents are dying over there. They always do in war.

But that does not mean I am going to pile on the Army with everybody else when a story like this pops up.

Maybe I'll hold on to what I believe about our troops until a real spokesman comes forward, not a fake one like Jesse MacBeth.

Being against the war does not mean I have to see our own troops with disgust.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

69. are the children and women dying of natural causes?

How many have died? How many died in My Lai massacre? Was it all just another urban legend, like the Holocaust?

[Scoody Boo]

72. Did I say that?

A lot of those children are being blown up by car bombs also. When I was in the Army, car bombs were not part of the US inventory.

Innocents die in war. When shit gets dropped out of the sky that is hard to run from, it does not always go to where it is supposed to. I am not saying that Iraqis aren't dying.

I just do not believe that they are being delibertely targeted by American troops.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

79. the problem here is that you think of this as a "war" when it's occupation

based on treasonous lies. I never implied you "said that." I simply asked reasonable questions about Iraq, which you failed to answer. How many children died of car bombs and how many die from U.S. gun-fire? It's a reasonable question to someone who claims to have been in Iraq.

[Scoody Boo]

88. It is a silly question to ask of anyone who has been in Iraq.

There is no scoreboard in the lobby with a running total. I do not know how children have been killed by car bombs. Too many if you ask me. How many from American gunfire and bombs, I do not know. Too many in that case also.

I am not saying that there is not any blood on American hands. It is the claims of a systematic targeting of civilians that I do not believe.

I worked with a security company. Body counts were not out stock and trade.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

111. Emotionally I can't afford to believe in systematic targeting of civilians

On that point; I agree. Our hands are too bloodly and it hasn't been a war for a very long time. "Occupation of Iraq" is a better term. If the idiots in DC don't kill them all first, I bet most of our troops will vote Democrat when they return.

[Scoody Boo]

116. Sir...

despite our little online dust up, I believe we have found some common ground. :)

[Jeffersons Ghost]

120. that too is our choice... IMHO we never lost common ground

It's a very big ten in DU, where even Republicans control which threads attain high visibility on certain days. Nice debating you Scooby. Your ability to detach emotionally for higher analysis is commendable.

[PublicRadioVet]

155. As usual, I am with Scoody

Nobody is saying Americans have not spilled innocent blood. This happens in all wars, and is one of the great tragedies of war that can be minimized, but not avoided. I've not been to Iraq, but lots of soldiers in my unit have, and would it surprise people here to learn that none of them were on orders to routinely blow away Iraqi civilians whenever they felt like it? Hell, some of them spent 18 months in Iraq, and never had to pull the trigger once. Not once.

My greatest fear, where the anti-war movement is concerned, is that hate for Bush has slopped over and become hate for soldiers in general. Too many people are eager, indeed all too willing, to believe that we're all a bunch of monsters running around out there, ventilating skulls and sucking the brains out through the hole.

Our armed forces have been asked to do the near-impossible, and most of them are working very hard to avoid unnecessary deaths.

Sadly, those fighting U.S. forces in Iraq, tend not to feel the same.

[jollyreaper2112]

137. I hate that phrase

Innocents die in war. When shit gets dropped out of the sky that is hard to run from, it does not always go to where it is supposed to. I am not saying that Iraqis aren't dying.

I've seen this voiced as the "shit happens" excuse for casualties. Pukes will then say that the deaths are tragic but we must push on and other such bullshit.

From my point of view, I agree that innocents will die in any war so that should be the PRIMARY question right from the start! "Will this war be worth the cost in lives?" Line up a thousand children and have a soldier with a pistol and a big box of ammo walking behind them, putting a bullet in each and every head. Now what goal could be worth that? Saving the lives of a thousand other children? Saving the lives of a million? Making a fuckload of money for your friends and showing daddy you're a hard man, just like him?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

138. there you go jollyreaper!

you better be careful telling hard to handle truths around here.

[Scoody Boo]

139. I have not once said that we must push on...

I have had my fill of this war myself. I said innocents die in war because, yes, shit does happen. And yes it is tragic, but it is not the same thing as troops running around lining up civilians and targeting them.

[jollyreaper2112]

151. ugh

I have had my fill of this war myself. I said innocents die in war because, yes, shit does happen. And yes it is tragic, but it is not the same thing as troops running around lining up civilians and targeting them.

For all practical purposes, it's the same thing. If I fire my gun in the air on New Year's, there's a chance the bullets could hit someone on the way down. If they do and the cops figure it out, I'm probably up for manslaughter. Cause and effect, action and responsibility. If I'm a stupid teenager throwing bricks off the overpass, I may not have targeted a specific individual but my actions could result in injury or death. I would be held acconutable.

As to the part about our troops intentionally targeting civilians, it appears that's happened in a few cases. But we'll ignore that for the sake of this argument. No, our guys aren't picking individuals out of a crowd, looking them in the eye, and blowing their heads off. All the same, they're still dead. "Nothing personal, it's just business." That seem like a good answer?

I just hate how Republicans and other war supporters use that phrase as a means of dismissing the dead. "Eh, what can you say? Shit happens."

Incidentally, nice Faye pic.

[IselaB]

83. You know, Jeff

You're the one here who seems to only be able to believe what he's comfortable with.

It's obvious now Jesse MacBeth was a fraud. The fact that was discovered quickly (after the video, although he apparently had the IVAW going for awhile) is not a bad thing. It's a good thing.

The people who argued that MacBeth was a fraud didn't make those arguments because they don't like to confront uncomfortable truths. They made the arguments because they had reason to believe MacBeth was a fraud.

Because I believe MacBeth is a fraud doesn't mean I'm going to reject credible reports of atrocities in Iraq. I'm very concerned about this incident in Haditha. It looks like Marines are going to be charged with crimes, and that there are going to be public hearings on the incident. I'm not unwilling to accept that a massacre occurred there. But what is being alleged there is not based on the testimony of a fraudulent soldier.

And because I am able to think critically doesn't mean I discount My Lai or the Holocaust, for crying out loud.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

112. not just me but EVERYONE only believes what is emotionally comfortable

and because I remain open-minded on the topic without real proof doesn't make me evil or wrong, especially since I never categorically claim the fool is telling the truth. Truths that you choose to accept don't make you wrong or bad but we must always remain alert to why we choose to believe certain things.

[PublicRadioVet]

142. Again agreed!

This is my biggest beef with the anti-war front: they are uncomfortable with the idea that the U.S. soldiery is, in spite of it all, still a pretty good group of pretty good people who simply want to do good in the world. Whatever anyone thinks of Bush or the stinking politicians in Washington, why must this translate into disdain for the troops? Most troops are good people who just want to do their duty and go the hell home. Maybe you get a few bad apples here and there, but if you have a barrel filled with 500 apples and 10 of them are truly rotten, does that mean the whole barrel should be thrown out?

[Catrina]

148. You have a preconceived idea of the 'anti-war front' I'm afraid. And

you haven't been on this board very long, or you would not have made that statement. Many, many people on the anti-war front have family members in Iraq. Many are themselves either active duty or veterans. Most do NOT blame the troops. They blame the lying war-profiteers who sent them there. The same ones who support every war but never fight in them. Your statement is a rightwing talking point with absolutely NO basis in fact.

Otoh, the rightwing so-called 'troop supporters' are anything but that from my observations. It is the rightwing who refuse to acknowledge the total lack of concern for the troops in Iraq by this administration and the Republican Party and the constant cutting of their benefits. It was the anti-war front that forced the Bush administration to at least put off their budget-cutting of veterans benefits, eg. It is the 'left', many of them veterans themselves, who end up taking care of homeless vets, some even taking them into their homes long after all the flag-waving is over.

I see lots of flag wavers on the right, but very little support for the troops, and when these hyped-up wars are over, it is not the Right who, years afterwards when they really need support, are there to help. It is not the right who fights for benefits, or who fights to get answers about those affected by DU, Agent Orange and all the other horrors the troops are forced to endure ~ it is in fact, the right who DENY these illnesses.

I am totally sick and tired of that nonsensically statement ~ as if every person who insists that this country only fight wars that are absolutely necessary is some kind of wacko, commie leftie.

People who oppose unnecessary wars are true patriots since that is one of the principles laid down by the founding fathers of this democracy. It is those who blindly rah-rah every war who are unpatriotic, imo. They care nothing for the ideals laid out in this country's most important documents.

The term 'ant-war' itself is a wrong term. What most patriotic Americans are 'anti' is wrong wars, wars that are unnecessary, which is why they are lied about. Just wars, wars to defend this country are not what we are talking about here. We are talking about a war based on lies. That is un-American!

Welcome to DU btw ~ and sorry to rant ~ but that mantra is getting a little old so I guess I'm glad you're here. Maybe you'll learn some truth about Americans who love their country and why they object to warmongering for profit and the waste of the lives of the troops they love many times their own children. I do not know why Democrats have allowed this to stand for so long, but it's time to put an to these myths created by chicken-hawks like Rush Limbaugh who himself wasn't able fight in a war he supported because of an anal cyst!

[Jeffersons Ghost]

152. Hey did you hear about it when Republicans lowered enlistment standards

a few months back to bolster troop levels. He's now letting criminals enlist in the military.

[Llewlladdwr]

53. What Macbeth claims ISN'T true.

Are you saying that his veracity is unimportant? If so then I guess you are correct..."we will only believe what is comfortable".

Reality-based indeed.

[tabasco]

54. You seem to want to believe what is comfortable.

You want to believe anything that fits your world view.

Many of us prefer the truth, as uncomfortable as it may be.

[hogwyld]

60. Many here are like that

They can't handle the truth, so if they discredit the messenger, they discredit the message. History will look upon this ongoing massacre of inocents, and make the Nazi era look like a tea party.

[BOHICA06]

64. Your perspective of history ...

is skewed by time. 20th Century Wars use to rack up the dead in the tens of millions - and while hundreds of thousands is a humanitarian disaster it is exponentially better than our past slaughters.

[genie_weenie]

106. Oh come on!

There have been worse massacres. There is no way this is close to the Nazis, or the Armenian Genocide, or what the US did in The Phillipines Insurrection or during the Seminole Wars.

But, you're argument basically breaks down to: If I see something that is "Evil" in my opinion then ANY AND ALL METHODS I use to combat what I call evil are acceptable.

That stance can then be turned around and used by your opposistion. So, if for example, one thinks liberals are bad for the nation you could steal elections in 2000 and 2004 to keep them out of power.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Llewlladdwr]

49. Indeed.

Liars like Macbeth do not help the cause. Just makes it that much harder to get the truth out.

He'd best keep a much lower profile for the nonce.

Nice Faye by the way...

[Scoody Boo]

51. I love Faye...

Beautiful, independent, deadly with pistol, and since she had been cryogenically frozen for a lifetime, NO IN LAWS!

[Jeffersons Ghost]

63. bull... There are bars and pubs full of idiots calling themselves rangers,

seals and green barets in the deep south but they miss all the easy service related questions when they run into REAL veterans like me. For example, I might ask: what was the highest paygrade you attained or if it's ex-Navy they intend to mimic, I can sometimes snag them up with sargent vs. petty officer conversation.

[Scoody Boo]

68. There are many who will call themselves Rangers...

Snipers, SEALs and Green Berets over beers in a bar. Those only wind up looking like idiots when they get subtlely called out and trip over details.

Guys like Jesse MacBeth are completely different, though. They try to pass themselves off as Rangers or Special Forces to gain something. He wanted to besmirch our soldiers and tried to gain legitimacy by posing as a Ranger.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

70. there's no way for you or ANY of us to know that or say it with authority

like the rest of us, you have no tangible proof of anything.

[Scoody Boo]

71. I just make a guess...

he had a picture in a Ranger costume (it is only a uniform when a real Ranger wears it) on his wall and called himself a Ranger in the interview. Said that his Ranger unit was killing innocent people in Fallujah.

May be I am wrong, but to me it seems he tried to use his fake Ranger status to lend credibility to his story.

[PublicRadioVet]

73. Why defend this man?

I really don't understand why anyone is defending this Macbeth person. Part of what's supposed to make us different from The Other Side is our ability to face truths when they present themselves, even truths we don't like. If we play all the usual obfuscation games The Other Side plays, we're making ourselves just like them. Again, with all the REAL Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines who are against the war, why do we need to invent fake ones??

[Jeffersons Ghost]

75. All I defend is free speech... why attack a person without real evidence?

what bothered me most about the whole episode is the way it got quickly shut down, just like Big Brother wants...

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."

~ Thomas Paine ~


"The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in the insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

--- Justice Louis D. Brandeis

and last but certainly not least:

"The trouble about fighting for human freedom is that you have to
spend so much of your life defending sons of bitches; for oppressive
laws are always aimed at them originally, and oppression must be
stopped in the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."

--- H.L. Menken

[Scoody Boo]

77. Well, there is no evidence he was ever in the Army...

the unit he claims to have been in Fallujah with was at Ft. Benning on the date of the supposed massacre.

He is currently a fugitive.

He exercised his free speech. Free Speech does not mean a person's word has to be believed.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

80. those who challenge him need to offer the evidence in a free society

if he's a liar, prove it with solid evidence, not the folly I've seen online so far.

[PublicRadioVet]

84. The photo on the wall is "evidence" enough!

No Army soldier, even the freshest recruit down at Ft. Jackson--home of the non-combat MOS--would make the simple mistakes that were made in this photo. You ask for evidence? It has been given!

[Jeffersons Ghost]

91. btw, welcome to DU

but that's not evidence, it's simply a means to impugn his character. There are several technical reason the beret might appear inverted, when it's not. Hold a sign up to a mirror and you'll see how the problem arises. I'll say this just one more time in my role as Devil's advocate:

The trouble about fighting for human freedom is that you have to
spend so much of your life defending sons of bitches; for oppressive
laws are always aimed at them originally, and oppression must be
stopped in the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.

--- H.L. Menken

[genie_weenie]

90. So in your UNIVERSE I can make

the most outlandish claims and it's up to you to disporve them? Sorry, you don't understand how reasoning works. I can claim that 11th dimensional gremlins have imprisoned the right and honorable Bush and Cheney and embarked on 9/11 and the Wars and offer little in the way of evidence other than my testimony and then declare you disprove them. He has to PROVE his claims, I do not have to DISPROVE them.

And before you respond, yes thousands of innocent civilians have been killed. That is war and that is why you never go to war no matter how noble the reasons.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

102. apparently in a "war of ideas" no one has to prove or disprove anything

innuendo seems to work just fine.

[genie_weenie]

104. That's just it!

Like most wars (re:massacres) this one is fraught with propaganda. It's just now, the Internet is more powerful than the printing press and Mimeograph machine and all sorts of disinformation can be circulated rapidly.

I want the war to end. The question is are any and all methods acceptable to reach your goals?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

109. if the goal is starting or continuing war no method is acceptable

especially if it's no longer a war but instead an illegal, unpopular occupation. I do not, however, subscribe to the Machiavellian notion that the end justifies the means.

[genie_weenie]

110. That's good.

And that is my problem with Jessie. His actions do not aid those who have been in Iraq and Afghanistan and wish the war to end. His actions do not aid those who wish this regime to be brought low and removed and imprisioned for their actions.

Please see my post 106 for more.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1264056&mesg_id=1272438

[Jeffersons Ghost]

128. i remember... only horrors in Vietnam on the screen brought it to an end

The only way to make it end again is to discuss the horrors that occur in Iraq in detail, as we point out, once again, how stupid war is at the core. Whatever triggers anti-war discussion serves the greater good for society.

They hijacked the little box in the den Ozzy did you tell Harriet? Maybe the Beaver had something to do with it.

Beaver, come off that field and tell us what you did to the TV!

[PublicRadioVet]

140. Sometimes, war can't be helped.

"And before you respond, yes thousands of innocent civilians have been killed. That is war and that is why you never go to war no matter how noble the reasons."

I can think of a few things a lot worse than war. Like slavery. It took the bloodiest war in U.S. history to end slavery and obliterate the Southern slave economy, down to the bedrock. It also took war to end the Nazi nightmare and halt the 'Final Solution' to the 'Jewish Question'.

Yes, war is a miserable, brutal, costly, bloody business. No man should rushy giddy into war. But neither should a man shy from it, when it becomes absolutely necessary. I'm not saying the current war is necessary. But I hesitate to draw absolutes, based purely on the current war.

I am also open-minded enough to admit that (perhaps) there is a chance that in two or three generations, provided that Iraq is a liberal democracy and that many of her sister nations have followed suit, even this nasty business we've gotten ourselves into might yield a few roses.

If Christopher Hitchens, no Bush robot he, can support it....?

Wars are best evaluated in the long view of history. Many have been fought, some necessary and some not. We'll be old men and women before we know if this current war accomplished anything of merit.

[Catrina]

149. Christopher Hitchens? *rotfl* ~ that por man needs some serious

help. The very fact that he does support this war is enough reason to oppose it! He's nothing but a blowhard and he obviously has his own reasons for wanting to send others to fight in a war which he has so far been unable to explain the reasons for. But then he's not very good at explaining anything these days.

War is a sign of failure ~ if Bankers and Industrialists had not supported the Hitler regime, there would have been no need for that war. Most wars are and always have been about greed and power.

The only time a war is justified is if a country is attacked. Iraq was attacked they did not start this war, therefore they are justified in defending their country from pillaging of their natural resources, the killing of their citizens and the installation of a puppet government that will sell their country down the river. There is absolutely no doubt that this country is the invader, the pillager, the colonialist, everything this country's founders fought a revolution against.

[genie_weenie]

153. No War is ever worth it.

Nobody but the dead know whether all these things people talk about are worth dying for or not. And the dead can't talk. So the words about noble deaths and sacred blood and honor and such are all put into dead lips by grave robbers and fakes who have no right to speak for the dead. If a man says death before dishonor he is either a fool or a liar because he doesn't know what death is. - Johnny Got His Gun

Every war has at it's base the acquisition of territory. No war has ever been necessary, that's why leaders always have to couch their base reasons for going to war in some noble cloak, "Remember the Maine!", "Halt the Hun, the Womanhood of Belgium is at stake.", Allah, God, Amon-Ra, whomever wills it.

Slavery wasn't the true issue of the Civil War, the control of the economy of the South and the rich land owners fear of Northern Dominance. Black/White relations in America have always been used to separate poor whites and blacks from uniting against the control the rich and powerful have exercised over them.

In WWI, the 3rd Republic of France wanted to regain the land lost to Prussian (afterward the German Empire) and revenge the "insult" of the Prussians using Versailles to crown the German Emperor in 1871. The Prussians were angry over the French conquest of "their land" by the French Armies of Napoleon. And the question goes back further to the Free Country of Burgundy and the Duchy of Burgundy, one supported the Hapsburgs one was absorbed by the French Crown. And you could follow this back to the division of Charlemagne's Empire in 814.

The Cathars in Southern "France" (Languedoc) were some of the most pious peoples in History actually following the teachings of Christ. So-called Saint Dominic tried to convince them to follow the path of the corrupted Church of Rome but they declined. This angered Dominic and lead to the creation of the Medieval Inquisition which was zealous enforced by Dominicans. And then angered that the "Heretics" wouldn't convert the French King Philip II Augustus (he of the Lion in Winter and the Pope Innocent III decided a 20 year campaign of murder and destruction was needed. And of course, the lands then went into the control of nobles who fought in the "Crusade" and the Crown and Church.

Look at the battles of Israel, Ireland, and Kashmir. The all trace their roots back to control of the land and some empire or ruler who through fire and sword controlled the land, but which now a new generation struggles to gain freedom.

And as for Hitchens, "You can always hear the people who are willing to sacrifice somebody else's life. They're plenty loud and they talk all the time. You can find them in churches and schools and newspapers and legislatures and congress. That's their business. They sound wonderful. Death before dishonor. This ground sanctified by blood. These men who died so gloriously.
They shall not have died in vain. Our noble dead.
Hmmmm.
But what do the dead say?- Johnny Got His Gun

[Scoody Boo]

92. Since it is extremely hard to prove a negative...

and prove he WAS NOT in the Army, I tried to prove that he HAD been in the Army on another thread dealing with this. His name is not on any DOD register and there is no .mil profile (a requirement for every single member of the military since 2001) for him.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

94. I'm not willing to argue that he WAS ever in the military

All I say is that his words should not be hushed in a free society. Run-away patriotism fueled the Third Reich.

[Scoody Boo]

98. I would have no qualms with this guy...

if he had stood in a corner and said, "Americans are slaughtering Iraqi civilians by the hundreds!" Not that I would have believed him, but Free Speech and all that.

I do have a problem with him doing an interview claiming to have been there and claiming to have taken part in the killing and going so far as to naming the unit that supposedly committed these atrocities.

See the difference?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

123. what if I say we've killed over 10,000 Iraqi's and few wore uniforms

must we call them all "soldiers" or are many of them civilians? I also refuse to buy into calling an occupation based on lies a "war."

[Scoody Boo]

125. None have worn uniforms since the fall of Saddam.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

130. it makes it kinda mentally tough on the troops, doesn't it?

and you know what? the END DOES JUSTIFY THE MEANS if it ends the evils of an illegal occupation, which mainly breeds terrorism.

Please listen to the speech, especially questions at the end on this site and get back to me on fixing the problems:
http://feingold.senate.gov/

[Scoody Boo]

133. There will be no end...

if poserers and liars like Jesse MacBeth are the ones carrying forth the message. They make liars out of the rest of us. They make the anti-war segment look inept and not worthy of listening to.

Let's suspend reality for a moment and pretend that Jesse MacBeth had actually served in the Army. Let's say he was cook and saw a couple of troops take a couple of insurgent prisoners out behind the mess tent an shoot them.

Now he comes on the internet and instead of saying, "When I was a cook in the Army, my First Sergeant and Platoon Sergeant took a couple of insurgents out, bound their hands and shot them in the head." He says he was a non-existent "Special Forces Ranger" who served in a unit that was never where he said it was and killed two hundred civilians himself.

The story of two prisoners being shot would have been horrific enough, no one would have slammed him for being a cook and things would have gone from there.

Instead, nothing that he says now will be taken seriously. Even if he stopped exagerating and told the truth.

Depending on liars to carry forth a message with lies is only going to hurt us.

[PublicRadioVet]

141. I totally agree with this...

Well said, scoody boo.

There comes a point when winning and losing in an ideological battle ceases to have meaning. Then, only principle remains. And if those opposed to the war are willing to sell out on principle, with the only logic being that the war must be stopped by all means and at all costs, then the result is almost certainly going to be failure because the voting public will conclude that everyone against the war is as much of a fraud, or a bigger fraud, than Bush or Cheney or Rumsfeld.

I myself admit to mixed feelings. The part of me that thinks like Christopher Hitchens, thinks maybe it is worth it, in spite of Bush and Co. The part of me that is pragmatic thinks it was a bridge too far. My inner idealist and inner pragmatist share uneasy quarters, as you all may well guess.

[PublicRadioVet]

81. Obvious lies deserve to be discredited...

I suppose military folk take this more seriously than most, because it is a punishable offense for any of us to place even a single unauthorized ribbon on our uniforms, to say nothing of parading around in a getup like Macbeth. I read in Army Times a year or two ago about an FBI agent who has made it his hobby busting civilians and military personnel alike; people who masquerade as something they are not, either by wearing unauthorized ribbons or badges or by being in a uniform at all. He got started busting fake Medal Of Honor producers and procurers, and branched out from there, with the help of several current and retired military personnel. He told some interesting and shameful stories.

No doubt the Macbeth hoax is making him smile and shake his head. Just one more addled civilian who thought it would be fun to dress up and "play Army". Macbeth deserves to be hauled in and have the book thrown at him just like any other military fake.

[Catrina]

150. Macbeth is a nobody who may very well have hired to play the game

he played.

I'm not sure why people are going on an on about this incident. The story was debunked here on DU as soon as it was posted by DU members who are veterans themselves and others.

So, why all the discussion about an incident that is over and done with and that in the scheme of things and considering the daily carnage in Iraq and Afganistan, is a non-story. Why not more concern about the reality we are dealing with? To be honest, I find it very strange indeed.

I'm very glad he was lying because it means that more than 200 Iraqi civilians he claimed to have killed, are not dead.

[IselaB]

93. First, that's a great quote from Menken

But I don't see how this is a free speech issue. The guy was given a platform. He spoke. He exposed himself as a fraud. He lost credibility and most people quickly disassociated themselves from him. I don't see Big Brother in here anywhere. I don't understand why you expect people to continue to support this guy even after he's proven a fraud. If it's because of the Menken quote, well, I don't think MacBeth is the kind of son of a bitch Menken was talking about.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

96. I don't expect people to support him but read more Menken

and you'll see he meant sons of bitches worse than minor liars, like terrorists.

He snatched a platform and it was rapidly snatched from him by over-zealous people.

I personally don't "support him" but I do support the right of Iraq veterans to speak out against the war and comments like the ones on this board make them less apt to tell their stories.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

146. Well what evidence do you need?

The quotes are nice and all, but there's no reason to defend MacBeth. There are mountains of evidence showing that his story doesn't add up and just what exactly is the evidence that he's not a fraud? He said so? Is there any evidence that he is who he says he is?

I'm not saying these warcrimes aren't happening. I believe they are. Maybe not on the scale that he claims, but they do exist. All I'm saying is there is plenty of proof that this "soldier" is a fucking liar.

[Scoody Boo]

76. There are many soldiers who are against the war...

I have nothing against those guys. I spent a year in Iraq. I saw the shit going on over there.

There is plenty for a soldier to be pissed about.

The accusations put forwrd by a guy who was not not even in the military for a single day of his life is what I have a problem with.

[PublicRadioVet]

82. I agree with this totally!

It's not what Macbeth is saying as much as the fact that he is saying it under totally false pretenses.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

99. If I were on a jury, I'd be forced to acquit him on such sketchy evidence

I've yet to see proof that he was not in Iraq. As for uniforms, we never had to "earn" them in the Navy. They issued mine in '72 and I then learned the differences between a "conflict" and a "war." BTW, after discharge I wasn't too picky about wearing a P-coat with blue jeans. Some Nam vets had flags upside down on the backs of their field jackets. Many wars in US history are unlike modern confrontations for profit; WW1 and WW2 are good examples.

[PublicRadioVet]

103. Sorry, I don't buy it.

A photo taken while wearing beret, BDU coat, and there is a flag in the background? That's pretty much stock "me in the service" stuff, the kind of thing you get taken when you are STILL IN THE SERVICE. I would perhaps buy your argument if this were just some photo of the guy hanging out with buddies, and he happened to have a BDU coat on. But the photo in question is clearly an amateurish attempt to replicate the qualities of the real thing. And I am sorry, I know of no Ranger or Special Forces personnel, current or prior, who would ever make some of the mistakes this guy made, like wearing the flash over the wrong eye. Even if playing around. Rangers and Special Forces are too hooah for that. Anyone lacking the military bearing to at least get the beret right, is 99% likely to lack the military bearing to be a Ranger, or Special Forces.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

108. image reversal evidence is why I play devil's advocate in this case

SIMPLY HOLD A SIGN UP TO A MIRROR TO SEE WHAT I MEAN. THAT PHENOMENON CAUSES THE VIDEO INVERSION ISSUES. Some cameras compensate for image inversion but fail when it's a picture of a picture as in the video.

Windows platform media players typically use a system known as DirectShow to decode video files. As part of this system special filters can be installed, in order to handle additional video formats or add effects during decoding, for example. Unfortunately some filters can have undesired effects, such as inverting the video or commandeering DivX decoding from the genuine DivX decoder.

Upside down or mirrored video is commonly caused by these filters:

* Bicubic resize filter
Filename: bicubic_resizer.ax
Installed as part of many codec packs, this filter is perhaps most responsible for inverted video.

* G400 filter
Filename: divxg400.ax
Also installed as part of many codec packs, this filter can also invert the video.

* XviD filter
Filename: xvid.ax
Again, installed as part of many codec packs, the XviD filter can decode DivX video as inverted.

more info at: http://forums.divx.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/441101651/m/407100291

this guy's LACK of being an effective speaker makes it more believable because if it was a lie, they'd have hired a better speaker.

[Wickerman]

113. you had me 'til the last line

if it was a lie, they'd have hired a better speaker.

Sorry to jump into your conversation, I really don't have an opinion on the issue but have enjoyed the back and forth.

Never forget that not everyone puts as much stock in intelligence and articulation as we'd like them to.

Evidence against, "if it was a lie, they'd have hired a better speaker."

[Jeffersons Ghost]

114. I don't want to change minds. I only seek to open them

I have no intention of proving this guy is telling the truth because there is potential that he is a liar. All I ask is that EVERYONE reserve judgment until real evidence surfaces. In the "war of ideas" let's not let the bad guys win without coming forward with convincing evidence. Let's allow our troops to speak openly without fear of repercussions or they will remain silent. If you were a soldier with something like this to reveal, would this thread make you more or less likely to tell the whole truth about what you saw in Iraq?

[Scoody Boo]

121. I do not think that the treatment...

Jesse MacBeth has recieved would keep a REAL soldier from speaking out. For one thing, a real soldier would be just as disgusted by MacBeths charade as anyone. MacBeth is being raked over the coals because of he pretended to be what he was not. A REAL soldier coming forward would not have to worry about such things, because he would easily be able to shoot down such accusations. He would have a DD-214, he would have the actual dates his unit was somewhere. He would be pretty much unimpeachable if he was truly who he said he was.

Like I said, no one needs to spin the truth into the truth.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

122. errr do REAL sailors count too?

after all, John Kerry is swiftboated by modern neocons as we chat. He's a USDA certified WAR HERO for Christ's sake! Don't tell me, "A REAL soldier coming forward would not have to worry about such things, because he would easily be able to shoot down such accusations."

[Scoody Boo]

124. John Kerry never shot down those accusations.

He thought that ignoring them would make them go away. That was one of the biggest mistakes of his campaign.

He could have easily done so.

[Big_Mike]

115. While in general, that is valid, here it is not.

The right and left sides of a uniform blouse have the nametape and US Army tape sewn onto them. That establishes the right/left aspect of the photo. In the photo, the beret is pulled to the left rather than the right. If a person has worn a beret for more than one day, that fact is set as almost reflexive, as you are constantly pulling on the damn thing to get it into place properly. The guiding Army Regulation, Army Regulation 670-1 clearly states "The beret is worn so that the headband (edge binding) is straight across the forehead, 1 inch above the eyebrows. The flash is positioned over the left eye, and the excess material is draped over to the right ear, extending to at least the top of the ear, and no lower than the middle of the ear." This is one additional reason why I doubt he has served since the Army Chief of Staff mandated the beret as wear for all soldiers since June 14, 2001! Had he ever served, he would KNOW how the beret was correctly worn.

Sir, you say you wish proof before dismissing him. Were you presented with a $3.00 bill to pay a debt, would you accept that bill as valid until disproven? There are simply too many mistakes, omissions, and errors of commission for me to accept his word on this. He simply is a liar.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

119. so?

now I invite you to look past superficial lies and seek underlying motivations. Who benefits from this poorly crafted illusion? What type atmosphere does reverse propaganda create when valid veterans decide to blow the whistle upon discharge? After all, he's stuttering and ANYONE knows the public will jump all over that flaw and then look deeper.

[Big_Mike]

129. The stuttering is not a problem for me.

I have had soldiers working for me who stuttered. No big deal. You ask the question I would like answered. Who gained by this? I emailed SocialistAlternative.com and asked them what their position regarding his published interview with them is. I also asked that if they did determine that this was faked, that they remove his interview. I have not yet received an answer from them. I enjoy reading all manner of thought (from Bryan Welch at Mother Earth News to William F. Buckley, Jr. at National Review Online, althoug mainly I like to read Buckley only to expand my vocabulary). But I strongly dislike when false and/or misleading stories are printed. They serve no benefit to any argument, as you have pointed out, since the other side then washes all of your arguments with the brush used against the fallacy.

I had thought that this young person had been enlisted and in a support role somewhere. But when I review the timelines, I think he is simply a poseur in need of counseling.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

131. it's a big tent with room for dissenting beliefs... in a "war of ideas"...

stay tuned for upcoming events.

[eridani]

57. If it's a fake name, could it be an intentional literary reference?

http://www.enotes.com/macbeth-text/3365#outspot

LADY MACBETH.
Out, damned spot! out, I say!-- One; two; why, then 'tis time to do't ;--Hell is murky!--Fie, my lord, fie! a soldier, and afeard? What need we fear who knows it, when none can call our power to account?--Yet who would have thought the old man to have had so much blood in him?


DOCTOR.
Do you mark that?


LADY MACBETH.
The Thane of Fife had a wife; where is she now?--What, will these hands ne'er be clean? No more o' that, my lord, no more o' that: you mar all with this starting.


DOCTOR.
Go to, go to; you have known what you should not.


GENTLEWOMAN.
She has spoke what she should not, I am sure of that: heaven knows what she has known.


LADY MACBETH.
Here's the smell of the blood still: all the perfumes of Arabia will not sweeten this little hand. Oh, oh, oh!

[Bucky]

127. With his speech impediment and history of killing, I'd think King Richard

O bitter consequence,
That Edward still should live! 'True, noble prince!'
Cousin, thou wert not wont to be so dull:
Shall I be plain? I wish the bastards dead;
And I would have it suddenly perform'd.
What sayest thou? speak suddenly; be brief.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

136. it's all crazy enough to be or not to be Hamlet

but "tis method to this madness."

[PublicRadioVet]

65. Lying and fabrication is NEVER acceptable!

Being an Army Reservist, I dislike it when anyone embelishes or fabricates a military record. Earning a uniform is not easy, regardless of your status as Reserve, Guard, or Active, and regardless of branch. So when anyone comes along telling fibs about his or her "service" I take it personally.

More disturbing to me, however, is the fact that people are defending this man AND his lying mouth, simply because it is politically convenient. Isn't that what BUSH is guilty of? Lying for politics? Haven't we all been pounding on this message for years now? What does it say about any of us when we damn Bush for being a lying fraud, then turn around and defend a LYING FRAUD just because he is saying things we want to believe, or that suit our view?

I'm just a newbie here, I know. But after lurking for some time, I decided to sign up and speak out on this particular issue. There are plenty of people--REAL Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines--who disagree with this war and dislike Bush. There is no need to invent them. And this Macbeth character is such an obvious charlatan, it's a disgrace that people have been so credulous where he and his claims are concerned.

[Heidi]

78. Welcome to DU, PublicRadioVet.

:hi:

[PublicRadioVet]

87. Thanks!

I have avoided posting in the past, just because things heat up so quickly around here. But on this issue, I felt compelled to speak up. There are lots of views in the military, about Bush and the war, but one thing I think every REAL military servicemember can agree on: fakes are NOT funny.

Again, thanks for the welcome.

Real change in 2008!

[Jeffersons Ghost]

85. no one "wants to believe" him... who wants to believe we're killing

women and children to make bush and cheney richer? not me, but I go against the grain whenever free speech is suppressed and I don't care if it's popular.

[PublicRadioVet]

89. Freedom to speak is not the issue, JG

You have to EARN a military uniform, just like you have to EARN most things in life. If I fabricated a PhD. and went down and got a job at the local college, and was found out, would I simply be within my rights as a Free Speaker if I defended my lie under the First Ammendment? How about if I claimed to be an MD (aka: Fletch) and set about falsely practicing medicine. And so on and so forth. There are solid reasons why it is not acceptable, indeeded, criminal, to impersonate or otherwise pass yourself off as something you are not.

Nobody is trying to quash freedom of speach. We want it known that a fake is a FAKE and that FAKES are not acceptable, and ought to be brought to justice.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

97. when I read online bullshit, I ask myself, who's winning a "war of ideas"

If the opposition wins we "stay the course" in Iraq and our troops remain the biggest losers of all.

[PublicRadioVet]

100. Again, why stoop to their level?

If our contention is that Bush's first, worst crime is having "lied" to get us into war, then why is it OK to support lies which, might, get us out of war? Two wrongs do not make a right. There are enough reasons one can think of to not be in Iraq. Fraudulent stories from fraudulent "Rangers" are not necessary and are, in fact, contributing to the "war of ideas" in that they make the anti-war party seem as false as the pro-war party.

The "war of ideas" becomes meaningless is BOTH sides are willing to stoop to falsehood. Then it's just a war of lies, and I thought the whole point behind being an open-minded or otherwise conscientious person was being able to appreciate truth above falsehood, even if the falsehood is flattering to us and the truth is damaging or otherwise embarrassing.

Again, if we always accuse the Republicans of lying, and covering up for or apologizing for, liars, and then we turn around and do the same thing, what makes us any better than they are?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

105. just think of yourself as a soldier in this "war of ideas"

and take your best shots... your right, social conscience is what makes Democrats better IMHO. On the right-wing boards my dissenting opinions would not be tolerated at any length.

[genie_weenie]

95. The statement I don't believe MacBeth

does not equal I don't believe innocents have been killed in this war and in some cases (Hadithah) murdered.

War sucks. Governemnts going to war by lying to their people to support it suck. This is not new, the US has been lying it's people into wars for 225 years. They're the government they know best.

But, again, just because someone comes out and claims something, even something you wish with all your heart were true does not make it so. For an older example see Christianity. The truth of Christ divinity and his biblical return do not depend if 1 person or 1 billion people believe it.

[PublicRadioVet]

101. I don't agree with all of this, but well said!

My beef is with Macbeth being a fraud, bottom line.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

117. that's fair in the land of "stay the course" to Oz in a "war of ideas,"

Liars are part of the problem, not the solution and your views are valid.

but I promise EVERYONE at DU this: What is hardest to believe has enormous potential to be true in America today and things that emerge as great truths only shroud lies.

After all, even as I screamed out against invading Iraq, I felt he hid WMDs. did that one fool anyone else?

It's like we're all chained in a cave and one person claims we might all only see shapes, instead of true forms. While we debate over the true form of this online phenomenon did any one else see that chubby guy behind the curtain as the wizard spoke?

when I see stuff like this, I try to analyze before allowing myself to feel.

For example, why would the great and powerful wizard feel the need to set a stage of failure for revelations about atrocities in Iraq?

[Iblis]

118. Kicked!

kicked kicked kicked!!!

L

[rucky]

132. I hope you're not typing this post in a theater.

WTF?

[captainboog]

134. what if:

1) macbeth dressed for that photo as backwards as he could, in opposition to everything the army stood for.
(i really think it's silly that, if what he said WERE true, you would hold him to the standards of how "every" ranger/soldier would dress.)

2) the military records of him (possibly including where his unit was? ...little possibility) were purged as soon as this video came out

3) he's really skinny and weak because, having been haunted by what he did, he hasn't exercised or eaten well.

4) the stuttering, and other "weak" character attributes you would give him are because of his being totally fucked up psychologically over this

5) a few criminal charges against him have been fabricated

shit, how many of you think that 9/11 could have been staged or allowed to happen or whatever? compared to the massive amount of shit that had to be covered up for that possibility, deleting a soldiers identity and covering your tracks would be peanuts, probably a training exercise for the intern. ;)

in my mind, there is an equal possibility that the whole thing was setup so the patsy would fall, and the legitimate war crimes claims would be hushed.

like napalm in fallujah for example.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/iraq-doctor-brings-evidence-of-us-napalm-at-fallujah/2006/05/22/1148150185038.html

btw, i am not a real captain. pirate captain maybe.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

135. what if the left let's reich wingers win the "war of ideas"

check this out: http://www.michellemalkin.com/

[PublicRadioVet]

144. Nobody gets "purged" from the VA

Even the most vocal anti-war vet. Macbeth should at least be able to produce a DD 214, which is required to claim virtually any/all VA services; which he would need aplenty if he were as fucked up as some say he is, due to PTSD. As for the hypothesis that he intentionally jacked up his uniform for the photo, as some kind of 'statement' against the military, again I don't buy it. You have to know Rangers, or have spent any time around anyone from the machismo side of the Army (ala: Rangers, Special Forces, etc) You can't really BE a Ranger or Special Forces unless you have a certain mentality, level of discipline, and so on and so forth; stuff that doesn't leave you easily once you exit the service.

In this way, Army Rangers are kind of like Marines. You can take the man out of the Marines, but you can't take the Marines out of the man. I just can't imagine any former Ranger wearing the beret on the wrong side, with half of it over his ear and the flash over the wrong eye. Maybe some little jacked up washout from the BCT Reception Battalion would try that. But to be a real Ranger, you have to go through a weeding out process that really leaves its mark on you.

Everything I have seen in my (admitedly incomplete) military service leads me to believe that the man calling himself Jesse Macbeth is not, nor could he have ever been, a United States Army Ranger.

If he has proof to the contrary, let him produce his DD 214. Let him produce his MOS orders, or his orders for Ranger school. Let him produce documentation from his 201 file (every good soldier keeps duplicates of their important 201 information at home, so having his 201 "vanish" from his old unit is not an excuse!) Let him prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is who he says he is, and that he witnessed what he said he witnessed.

As Carl Sagan once said, where Immanuel Velakovsky is concerned, where there are extraordinary claims, there must be extraordinary evidence.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

147. The People Who Readily Believed This Were Suckers

The people who appeared to WANT to believe this SUCK.

DTH

[fun n serious]

157. A comment from his sister

http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=3934


I am Jesse’s older sister. Let me tell you...I am finally glad someone has finally discovered he is a fraud.

My brother went to army boot camp but got kicked out after four weeks for an inability to adapt to military life and was sent to a mental hospital in Georgia.

We grew up in the Arizona foster care system. Our mother is schizophrenic, a drug addict, and very abusive. Jesse spent the majority of his childhood in mental hospitals.

He convinced me back in 2002 that he was sick from Hep C and in need of surgery. I took him in. When I discovered that he was faking and stealing from me, I asked him to leave. I drove him all they way back to Arizona (I was going to school in California) and by the time I got back he had managed to empty my bank account, my roommates bank account, and charge up my credit card.