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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 06:39 PM
Original message
The video of the Army Ranger is a fake.
He is wearing his beret on backwards. I doubt he is even who he says he is.

It's a shame that crap like this gets posted on DU. Giving credibility to these kinds of lies demeans the whole site.
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ContraBass Black Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good.
Hopefully, no one else really did what he claims to have done, either.
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grytpype Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
141. The last word on "Jesse MacBeth."
Believing in made-up bullshit does not help the cause, people. There were and are plenty of war crimes taking place in Iraq, but this is not one, this is made-up. Period. Quit getting sucked in to a fake story just because it sounds truthy and corresponds to what you already believe. This and the Secret Indictment, it's making me sick.

Comments from the Peace Films Guestbook:

Today , the Army ran a check on Mr. MacBeths credentials. It turns out, not surprisingly to anybody with half a mind, that Mr. MacBeth has NO Army service record. Anywhere. Period. This is a direct quote given to me by Army spokesman John Boyce:

Initial research by the U.S. Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg shows no Soldier with the name of Jesse Macbeth having ever been assigned to the Special Forces or the Army Rangers -- which are, in fact, two separate disciplines. This appears to be some sort of hoax. No Soldier by that name at Fort Lewis to our knowledge, in the past, either. Of course, the line about "go into the Army or go to jail" is vintage TV script not heard since the 1960s. There are also numerous wear and appearance issues with the Soldier's uniform -- a mix of foreign uniforms with the sleeves rolled up like a Marine and a badly floppy tan beret worn like a pastry chef. Of course, the allegations of war crimes are vague, as are the awards the Soldier allegedly received.

----

Some earlier comments from real soldiers on the mistakes that give the hoax away:

----

Mother Fu**ng LIES!

I hope all of you read what I have to say about this. First, I speak to you, of Ogrish, as a combat veteran myself. I spent 6 years in the army as an Airborne Ranger stationed with an Infantry bgd at the 82nd, and with the 101st LRS Detatchment. This is the most disgusting piece of propaganda footage I have yet to see about the war in Iraq. While there *ARE* instances of deliberate abuse, killing and even torture of Iraqi non combatants, this particular interview is completely staged. Here are my conclusions...
First of all, in the beginning of the picture, the patch the supposed "Ranger" is wearing can be clearly seen on the right shoulder. A US Army soldiers right arm indicates a combat patch. You dont get one unless you've spent 6 months in a designated combat area. That's fine, except, he is wearing a Special Forces "Group" patch. I only know one ranger Unit that is authorized to wear that patch and they were deployed to Afganistan with 5th group. Also, he has two "tabs" sewn above the right arm patch. This is incorrect. An "Airborne" tab should be sewn above it, but nothing else. I assume the second patch is either the "Special Forces" tab, or his supposed "Ranger" tab. Bull s***. It doesn't go there. Also, notice his rank... Two stripes, Corporal (E-4). Thiese are pinned on. Most Units standards will state that rank is to be SEWN ON. Not pinned. Certainly, a ranger unit would uphold this standard. That's WRONG. Next, take a look at his military photo. The wall photo is similar to the ones you will find of any soldier who goes to the E-5 board for promotion. It is required that they have a "Soldier's Photo" taken for their packet. The standard is either BDU's, or Class-A's. He is shown wearing BDU's. His "Ranger" tab should be sewn above his unit patch. It's not there... Next, notice that above his name tag, there is NOTHING sewn on the uniform. Almost 99.9% of Rangers are airborne qualified. It's par for the course. I've NEVER met a L.E.G. (Low Energy Ground) Ranger. This is usually completed before attending ranger school- except for very rare circumstances. Any airborne soldier would proudly display their Jump Wings. Where are they??? Next, no god damned Unit Crest is placed in the center of the patch in his berrett. Finally, his sleeves are rolled up. For most infantry units, this is not allowed. Support units (and some combat units) will roll up their sleeves in warm weather while in garrison- However, Infantry soldiers are usually not permitted to do so because it is NON-TACTICAL for their job duty. "We train like we fight- And we dont ever fight with our sleeves up." Also, they are rolled improperly. The US Marines roll their sleeve like the liars piture. The US Army rolls up their sleeves but then folds the cuff area over the lighter portion of the sleeve to keep the uniform's camof**e pattern continuous. That's wrong. Here's an abbreviated list of discrepencies...

1. Special Forces Combat Patch (Wrong)
2. Two "Tabs" sewn above SF patch (Wrong- Only One)
3. No Ranger Tab
4. No Airborne Wings
5. No Unit Crest
6. No Sewn on Rank
7. No One in the Army rolls their sleeves like that.
Bonus: 8. Mustache is out of regulation by extending past the corner of the mouth.

You don't take a picture like that- with your uniform looking like you got it from some steven segal movie set. Its disrespectful, and an Army ranger would be upholding those standards.

I don't care what the j*** says... He is completely uncredible.

---

I am completely against the war in Iraq. Completely. I followed the link to this video in hopes of seeing a soldier speak out against the war in a manner that would inspire others to do the same. Aside from the lack of dates, places and names, I found a few other oddities that I think bear consideration in interpreting this veterans interview.

I read through all of the posts after viewing the video. As I found the second post on the matters concerning military dress interesting, I went back and replayed the first part that shows the wall picture.

As a former soldier myself (medic, 91B), I can assure you that no one in the Army rolls their sleeves that way. Absolutely no one. It's no big deal that they're rolled while he's giving the interview, but they are again rolled in the photo on the wall showed at the beginning of the video. There is just no way that could be an acceptable Soldier's Photo. He'd have been called out of regulation in a heartbeat, and those pictures are not taken until the photographer decides the soldier is 'dress right dress.' Or at least thats what Ive experienced. You see, in the Army and Airforce we all roll our sleeves so that the inside of the BDU's (battle dress uniform) are not shown. The reasoning is that in any situation, a soldier can yank the cuffs down in one movement. Only Marines and Sailors roll their sleeves in the manner displayed in the wall picture. (And sleeves are never rolled in a combat situation. When I served at Yongsan Garrison's military hospital in Korea, we were not exactly at war but it was still considered a combat theatre-so even in the boiling hot of summer, we weren't allowed to roll our sleeves. And when I worked in Germany after 9-11, the post commander didnt allow anyone to roll their sleeves because the military was in a combat situation. And I've never seen a battle-ready ranger with rolled sleeves at any time).

Also, all enlisted have a metal unit insignia on their berets, and all officers wear their rank on their berets. This young man has no unit crest on his beret in that photo, which is auspiciously out of regulation. Most important to me is that active members of groups like rangers, pathfinders, snipers and airborne (etc) have khaki patches sewn on to the fronts of their BDU's to identify their specialty. The picture of the young man showed no such patches. And his corporal rank was pin-on. That would never fly in a Soldier's Photo. And yes, his mustache is out of regulation. Though I doubt that would ever get past a ranger's platoon leader much less his 1SG, it would certainly not be allowed in a Soldier's Photo.

Even assuming that the photo shown was taken after he got out of the military, I still have trouble with the sleeve rolling. I can explain away the lack of unit crest, desert BDUs (issued only to the forces in Iraq) and patches by assuming he threw his uniforms and stuff away when he got out. But even in those circumstances, I wouldn't even think to roll my own sleeves in that way. The Army manner of sleeve-rolling looks much more impressive, is much more versatile and is, well, an integral part of military dress. Assuming he had thrown his old uniforms away, but then went through the trouble of purchasing a new uniform for a photo-op or for family memorabilia (and those ranger berets arent easy to come by)- well, it just doesnt make sense in that context to then put the uniform on incorrectly.

Im having trouble reconciling myself to the possibility that this interview could be posturing to serve the anti-war movement- and I dont know whether to hope that Im right or hope that Im wrong. To me, the end never justifies the means on any side. We just need more information on this one.
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rpgamerd00d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. debunked here:
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Berserker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. I'm not saying he is
a Ranger or not but your links to prove it false hold no water. Here is and example from some warmongering prick:
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2006/05/antiwar_poseur_.h...
Keep kicking this "PX Ranger". The anti-American left in Vietnam rolled out a pile of these liars and got Americans to beleive in bogus war crimes. I'm not big into legislating every little thing, but I'd like to see a law forbidding impersonating a serviceman, or if such a law exists, see this idiot prosecuted.
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rpgamerd00d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. He is a total fake. Here is more:
Edited on Mon May-22-06 06:59 PM by rpgamerd00d
1. Claim: Attended Ranger School. Truth: Would be awarded the Ranger tab, worn on the left shoulder above the 3/75 scroll.
2. Claim: Attended Special Forces Qualification Course. Truth: Would be awarded the Special Forces tab, worn on the left shoulder above the 3/75 scroll. SFQC from start to end takes about 1.5 years to complete, without any breaks. In a 11-03-2003 interview with the Eastern Arizona Courier he claims to have been home 2.5 months, making it 08-20-2003. He claims to have spent 14 months in Iraq and Afghanistan, making it 06-20-2002 when he departed for overseas. Special Forces is a total of 18 months making it 01-20-2001. Infantry combat training (boot camp) is 13 weeks, Jump school is 3 weeks, and Ranger school is 8 weeks (total of 24 weeks) making it 07-20-2000. A total of 3 years and 4 months of training and combat. If he was 19 years old in the interview then he was 15 or 16 when he enlisted. Minimum age of enlistment is 17 with parental consent. He also claims to have joined when he was 17, so the training and combat timelines do not work out. And this is if the system worked perfectly and the day he finished one school he started another, which is impossible because these schools are not collocated.
3. Claim: Fought with 3/75 in Afghanistan and Iraq. Truth: Would be wearing former wartime service 3/75 scroll on right shoulder.
4. Claim: Wearing Special Forces shoulder sleeve insignia on right shoulder, with Special Forces Qualification tab. Truth: No claims of being assigned to any Special Forces Group. The Special Forces Qualification tab is not worn on the right shoulder as a part of the former wartime service insignia.
5. Claim: United States Army Soldier. Truth: Rolls his uniform sleeves inside out not authorized in the Army.
6. Claim: Combat Infantryman Badge 2nd award. Truth: CIBs are issued during qualifying eras. The two most recent eras are Persian Gulf War, 17 January 1991 to 11 April 1991 and Somalia, 5 June 1992 to 31 March 1994. He would have been 9 years old to qualify for a second award.
7. Claim: Combat Action Badge 2nd award. Truth: IF he was an infantryman, he would not qualify for 1 CAB, he would have had to change his MOS prior to the incident awarding the CAB. There has not been a second qualifying era to award a second CAB, so it is impossible for him to have a second award.
8. Claim: Ranger. Truth: His beret is the correct color, but he is wearing the flash for the 1st Special Forces Group (wrong) and no distinctive unit insignia (wrong), which is required.
9. Claim: Operation Iraqi Freedom/ Battle of Fallujah. Truth: The Battle of Fallujah (Operation Phantom Fury) began on 11-08-2004. As we read about our intrepid Soldier was at home protesting coffee prices. Operation Vigilant Justice began on 04-05-2004 and did not include elements of 3/75.
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Blue Diadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
34. I don't know if the guy is a fake or not but here is a letter from him
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:VWAnD1gbBDkJ:www.a...
I hope the link works..I could only get to it by clicking on cache from the google listing.

It appears he wasn't protesting coffee prices..he was protesting being kicked out of the establishment because he was in military uniform...or so he says.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
snip:
But before that, let me tell you why I protest. I don't protest for the homeless people because I know most of them are homeless because that is the way they choose to live. They like that life. I am doing my protest against Coffee Plantation on the basis that they banned me from their property for the sole reason that I was in my military uniform, in case some of the boneheads who own Coffee Plantation and those in the press who advocate for them have forgotten. This is America. We are still at war. Soldiers and civilians are still dying. So why would someone boot an American soldier who is drinking coffee that he paid for and talking quietly to friends?

They booted me on my appearance alone. If they do not like green or BDUs, then that is their problem. If they don't like American servicemen, then why are they in America? Yes, I told the security guard and the employee who said I couldn't be there because of my uniform to f--- off. And I will tell them that again and anyone who bans an American serviceman who is peacefully drinking bought product from their store. I would understand if I was being loud and disturbing people, if I stank so bad they were losing customers or if I was disturbing their business in any way. But I was doing none of those.

snip:
I served in Iraq 16 months as a U.S. Army Ranger. Coming back home and being treated that way angered me. Coffee Plantation is not the enemy or my enemy. The owners who discriminate are the enemy. I used to go and hang out there all the time. I would play chess and buy food there all day sometimes.
snip:I won't discuss the day I'm being shipped off. But we need to arrange talks ASAP if Coffee Plantation wants to talk.

Guest Column: I never wanted to protest
by Jesse Macbeth
Special to The State Press
published on Friday, April 23, 2004



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pocket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #34
51. "I served in Iraq 16 months as a U.S. Army Ranger." April 23, 2004
The war was less than 16 months old at that point. He must have a time machine.
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Blue Diadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. You're correct. Wasn't it only about 1 yr at that date from the start
of the war? Thanks for pointing that out..I hadn't even considered the dates when I posted it.

It appears he's been saying things for a couple years now that don't add up. I wonder if there is any way it can be determined if he was ever in the military at all.



He was also supposed to have received a back injury over there.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

April 12, 2004

Jesse MacBeth told another story.

MacBeth, a 20-year-old U.S. soldier who recently returned from Iraq after sustaining a back injury, said Coffee Plantation banned him from the store in March for the way he was dressed -- in his training uniform.

He had been sipping coffee calmly when a store employee asked him to leave. He refused.

Management insisted that he leave even after he took out his military ID card. Security guards escorted him off the premises under threat of arrest if he returned.

He said he hoped the protest would disrupt the flow of customers into the store.
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:jO1WfQ4goigJ:www.as...

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mikelgb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #51
65. possibly the war started earlier than thought...
(I just jumped in the middle of this and have no idea what the whole story is or who we are talking about)

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semillama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #12
115. Good job, now only if everyone had read your post
before trying to support this guy's claims later in the thread. You effectively proved this person is not telling the truth, and you laid out the evidence in clear and logically manner. Your post should stand as an example of how to lay out proof for a position on DU threads.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and while sadly wartime atrocities aren't that extraordinary, something about this guy's story really seemed that way.

Contrary to what some folks choose to believe about the Armed Forces, it's evident from our DU vets that there's enough good folks in the military that stuff like what this supposed Ranger described would have come out by now, and would have been spoken about by folks with credibility. I'm not saying it hasn't happened or won't happen, but this false Ranger made a pretty big claim for execution of women and children as SOP, and I just don't see mass numbers of American soldiers going along with that.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
27. I don't see how your post debunks the other links.
In fact, as I understand it, one or maybe two of the people at Winter Soldier in Detroit were shown to have made false statements about their veteran status - I may be wrong because I've never chased it down, but it's widely believed.

Everyone else at Winter Solider was legit! But because of one or two impersonators, you end up with the right wing writing off everything that was said by the legit veterans!!!

And that is how you get posts like the one you quoted.

That is WHY we must be vigilant and not allow shit like this fake "ranger" is pulling - it discredits all the other veterans who tell their stories legitimately.

If the guy turns out to be for real, some apologies may be owed - but if he is for real, he should understand the stakes involved and appreciate the need for verification.
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Berserker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #27
55. Not you or I know
that he is a fake Ranger. Lets see his DD214. I am not standing up for him. But to jump to things like his uniform is fucked up does not mean a thing to me. He can wear it anyway he wants if he is not lying but if he is lying a real Ranger should take that hat from him and shove it up his ass.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. True
and my post was inartfully worded...it seems to me there's a lot of questions, but you are right that we don't know.

I meant to emphasize the point that if he is fake, then he can really discredit the guys who are for real. So he should understand if people are insistent on verification.

I agree, let's see his DD214. That shouldn't be too difficult to produce (but it does take a few weeks I think.)
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Dunedain Donating Member (335 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #56
161. You get a copy when you discharge n/t
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. sorry, I must have missed what you're referring to?
a link, or a synopsis would be appreciated.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. 51 recommendations for this pile of shit on DU!
And sadly, this is only one of several threads on the forgery that made the "greatest" page.

I am so, so disappointed in some of the people in this community, but I know there are others who are reality based. We can't fight their lies if we live in a fantasy world of our own. I want a reality-based community, is that too much to ask?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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DancingBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. No
These days, however, reality is taking a back seat on DU in favor of the new flavor of the month - "If I want it it must be true. Therefore, I shall pretend that it is."
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #30
47. Late breaking DU news...
Karl Rove was indicted last week by Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald in the Valerie Plame affair.

Details are lacking and we like it, but what the hell... it sounds good so run with it.
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rzemanfl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #30
48. That kind of thinking made * President. n/t
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
31. Sadly, today we have to fight for it.
A reality based community doesn't just happen.

Thanks for your contribution to the effort.
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Yollam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
42. Not all of us bought into it.
First of all, I reject hero worship as a rule anyway, but I never even paid this guy's story any mind because his anecdotes of atrocities would be totally irrelevant to the overall immorality of the war & Bushco. I'm quite certain that many of our troops HAVE killed innocent civilians, since that tends to happen in any war. I'm also sure that a lot of those same troops are wracked by guilt about it now. I'm sure many others followed the rule of law to the best of their ability.

That both sides commit atrocities is a universal truth of war. I didn't need some soldier, real or fake to tell me that.

But thanks for bringing the info to light. It also shows that a lot of people here do expect proof and that others are willing to admit when they have been duped.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. First thing I noticed that the Chevrons on his camo jacket are Marine
issue. The Army sews on green patches, Marines use metal pins.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
154. Well, I think the guy is a fraud, BUT, during my time in the Army
Edited on Tue May-23-06 03:17 PM by ET Awful
we used metal pins. Sewn on rank was something that was approved but not common.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
5. The jury is out. HOWEVER, it would be a "nice" trick to have...
all the coming vet atrocity stories discredited by this kind of stunt.
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Would be even better...
if when a "vet" starts spewing this shit, it is true to begin with. And the "vet" is not a guy suffering from Ranger Scroll envy but actually one who was there.

A REAL Ranger would not get debunked. A poser would. My brother Rangers and I have little respect for posers. The world is full of these envious bastards who have NEVER jumped anywhere near a real airplane and Rangers like nothing better in life than exposing them. No matter what their message is.

If you start out a story by lying about who you are, no one is going to believe what you say you did.

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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
170. Thank you
What raises my suspiciion right away is that the Rangers often do short, intense tours. My son was in the 3/75th, and they did not stay for 16 months at a stretch. Their missions were short term.

Not saying that means much, but combined with the uniform issues I am highly skeptical.

Lots of guys claim to be Rangers. They should not piss off the ones who really are....
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grytpype Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. If only they had known what an Army uninform looks like...
... the trick/stunt would have worked! Damn!!!!
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
46. Has Roves finger prints all over it. Pay some to lie, so that the
real ones get discounted......

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Julius Civitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #46
76. Exactly! - People, remember Hatfield. Remember Dan Rather.
This is another "discredit the source" trick.
Stay away from this one.

Notice how prominently "lefty" all their credits are. It's almost a parody.

Beware, something smells funny about this one.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #46
108. I think people give Rove waaaaaay too much credit.
He doesn't have his fingerprints in EVERYTHING.

Some people are stupid. Some people are just full of bullshit, and there are no puppet masters behind them.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. well if that's the case, he sure has Iraq Veterans Against the War...
...pretty well fooled. Somehow I think that's unlikely. Not inconceivable I suppose, but you'd think they'd spot a fake pretty quickly.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #6
93. Does he? I can't find him on their site this morning.
I only got interested in this last night, but I realized we should be VERY concerned about REAL soldiers with REAL stories being discredited by this guy (if he is indeed a fake) - it's exactly what they did with VVAW.

I checked IVAW site and couldn't find him listed there at all. So who's saying he's even a member? (I may have missed something....)

IVAW homepage:
http://www.ivaw.net/
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #93
95. If the IVAW was smart...
they would run away from this guy if he ever had anything to do with them. Why there WAS some subterfuge with the VVAW, they were also at fault by being to accepting of anyone who had the same message and taking them at their word.

There is nothing wrong with being a cook or mechanic in the service until you claim to be something else. This happens alot in these groups and it never helps. It just knocks the legitimacy of the group down.
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DTinAZ Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #93
106. They don't list their members on the website...
...they only list the founding members. However, many people have tried to contact IVAW about this situation, but they've not yet responded, and nobody is answering their phone...only a machine. According to their website, "Membership is open to all those who have served as Active Duty, Reservists, or National Guard since 9-11-2001 and agree with the IVAW mission statement" and to join, you fill out a form and send it in. It doesn't appear that they do any sort of background check on incoming memberships, but rather take the information as being truthfully submitted.

DT
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Asgaya Dihi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
8. Hate to say it
since I posted last night that he seemed real to me, but I think you might be right. Reading comments posted in other places it seems he may have been in Arizona at the time. If it's the same guy, we've got real problems with the story. Anyone able to check this?
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Tom Bombadil Donating Member (175 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
9. I don't
see how posting a link to this video demeans the whole site!?

This is a discussion forum after all and that is exactly what happened with this video. DU didn't report it as fact. It was put up for discussion and the discussion seems to have debunked the story.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. 51 recommendations for what was first a dubious story at best?
I'm sorry, but to me that DOES demean the level of discussion here.
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Tom Bombadil Donating Member (175 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Perhaps some at DU need to be
more sceptical at times. However, you don't honestly believe that the US miltary hasn't committed atrocities in Iraq?
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Of course atrocities have been committed by the U.S. military!
DOCUMENTED AND PROVEN ATROCITIES. And every single one of them is a tragedy and unacceptable. That's what makes something like this even worse. It gives those who would deny the real atrocities more credibility, and tarnishes the truth!
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #26
91. I don't think you should be quite so angry at DUers
I understand your anger. But this is a community, not a pool of journalists. Many people have zero experience with the military and don't have any frame of reference. Among this large community there may be quite a few people who are young and naiive, and plenty of others who are old and naiive, who can't imagine why anyone would make up such horrid things. So please try to be a little more patient.

If IVAW been infiltrated by a loser and a poser, who else has been fooled? Any specific information pointing towards this guy being a liar or a plant should be passed on the IVAW.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #91
160. Those are good points; you have more patience than I. n/t
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. I won't believe it from spokesmen like these.
I won't believe it from my old unit until someone who was TRULY in that unit makes those claims. And that would mean a real Ranger, not the PX kind.
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Posting the Story here does not deman the whole site...
but continuing to believe the guy, even though he is an obvious fake and has been thoroughly debunked, just because people WANT his message to be true does not make people look good either.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. with respect-- I haven't seen that he's been "thoroughly debunked..."
...at all. I have not seen any credible debunking of his claims of combat atrocities-- none that are any more credible than his claims themselves. Bear with me for a moment. What I've seen are lots of comments like the ones in this thread analyzing his appearance in a photograph whose provenence is completely unknown. The photo might very well be a prop. One of the links up thread includes such evidence as "real rangers are lumpier than this guy" or some such with a pic of a "real ranger" to illustrate the point:



That's debunking? Come on.

In the absence of evidence he claims he was in Fallujah and others say they don't believe he was there, he says he's ex-Ranger and others say they don't believe him-- but all I'm hearing are opinions about it, not compelling facts. Find someone who was in his unit during 2003-2004 who will say that he was not there. Find documentary evidence that proves he was not there. But don't tell me that a bunch of criticisms of a photograph that no one knows anything about constitutes proof of anything about his claims regarding completely different events. Your opinions have been duly noted. Thank you for offering them.
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. 3rd Ranger Battalion was...
in Ft. Benning being awarded another campaign streamer for the Battalion Guidon in April of 2004. They were not deployed overseas at that time.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. then it's pretty clear that someone is getting parts of this story wrong..
eom
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #24
74. shows how little you understand....
Edited on Mon May-22-06 11:42 PM by pelsar
about the military subculture......his uniform, the way he wears it, etc...tell the story far more than any words will....
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #24
85. a note on provenance...
What you say about the provenance of the photograph is apropo. There was once a photographer named Edward Curtis who spent many years of his life photographing Native American and the last vestiges of their society... to capture the "vanishing race". He spent many years travelling the country with large format camera and portrait tent posing many Native elders and warriors for photographs. But when he came across a Native wearing dungarees, a bandana, cowboy hat, anything NON-NATIVE he made them remove it. And if they didn't have traditional dress he would supply them with costumes. Since this was in the late 1800's/early1900's, his is one of the only large photographic collections of Native American "culture". But when you look back at his photos and see a Hopi wearing a Sioux headress and recognise how much he's messing with history, all the while "entertaining the masses" (Curtis' portfolios were HOT sellers of the time)... it sometimes makes me wonder if someone out him up to it. Maybe this soldier came to the interview in civvies and the interviewer gave him the jacket? Or the Army is out of patches and had to use the medals Marines use... i don't know. But i'd like to see him put up some documents. Heshould be able to prove if and where he was in the service.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. It seemed like a hoax.
No doubt that atrocities have been commited in Iraq and Afghanistan by some US Troops but this guy didn't seem for real. We must be more vigilant about what we get exposed to no matter who puts out a story.
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
13. Because his beret is backwards he's a fake? Check this out.
Halliburton On The Run!
Teach In / Press event

WED, MAY 17TH, 2006
5:30pm-7:00pm
Mayflower Congregational Church
3901 NW 63rd Street
Oklahoma City, OK 73116
(OPEN TO THE PUBLIC)

Event to present & discuss actions taken at the
Halliburton Annual Shareholders' Meeting in Duncan, OK,
on Wednesday morning, May 17 (same day).

Special Guests:
(Several panelists will have attended the actual shareholders meeting)

Pratap Chatterjee - CorpWatch
Hart Viges - Iraq Veteran - IVAW
Jesse MacBeth - Iraq Veteran - IVAW
Alan Shackleton - Iraq Veteran - IVAW
Jeri Reed - VFP - Mother of Iraq Veteran
Maureen Haver - Houston Global Awareness
Robert Guimaraes Vasquez - AIDESEP, Peru
Michael Karikpo - Friends Of The Earth, Nigeria

He sure seems motivated/involved for a phony. I'm not saying he is or isn't, but I wonder what he gains from protesting Haliburton etc.? Would this be an attempt to get out in front of accurate stories from vets?

Here is an interview he did a month ago.

http://www.socialistalternative.org/news/article13.php?...

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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. HE may REALLY be a member of IVAW...
but I will say he is a fake as a Ranger AND a Veteran of Falujah. A Ranger would never wear his beret backwards.
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. A "compliant" ranger would never wear his beret backwards, a disgruntled
Edited on Mon May-22-06 07:13 PM by gully
one would be less inclined to give a crap.

It's ridiculous to assume that because he turned his hat around on occassion he's not legit.



His beret in the video is placed in the same position as this mans is.

I am listening to his account now, though this is an awful story, unfortunately, it sounds REAL to me.

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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. There is the claim of having 2 CABs...
and 2 CIBs. No soldier is eligible to be awarded both. Who is awarded those badges is limited by MOS. Infantrymen get the Combat Infantryman's Badge (CIB), all other MOS's get the Combat Action Badge. For all he says he did, he was not in the Army long enough to change MOS's to be eligible for both.

Then there is the Special Forces flash on his beret. I served with 3rd Ranger Battalion and the first thing that got my bullshit meter pinging was that flash.

He wears his beret with the liner still in it. The first thing a Ranger does with a new beret is take the liner out and soak it to shape it.

The there is the issue of the sleeves which has already been mentioned.

When this blows up in this kid's face he can intern for Jason Leopold. He'll have an equal amount of credibility.
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
40. You may be correct, or Iraq vets may have done things a bit differently.
Edited on Mon May-22-06 07:56 PM by gully
I'm not sure if they had the same time for formalities as you may have?

Thanks for your service to our country. I hope you had a different experience than this young man did. I admit the photo does not look "Army issue" but I've dismissed that because I think it was one taken by "Iraq Veterans Against The War?"

Also check out this uniform:


Note the sleeve length? I think the Iraqi uniforms might have been tailored to the hot weather.
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #40
49. The sleeve is rolled up properly.
In the Army, the sleeve is turned inside out, folded up and then cuff is folded over. The part you see with the button is the cuff at the end of the sleeve. The young man in the picture is not an active duty troop. He is not wearing a regulation t-shirt and would never be allowed the tabs and badges he is wearing. The lack of rank insignia is another tell. He may be speaking about his experiences somewhere, but is no longer active duty.

Back to the CAB and CIB. The CAB is a new addition to the awards awarded to soldiers in the Army. It used to be that only infantrymen had a badge to indicate that they had been under enemy fire. All other MOS's only had the priviledge of wearing the unit patch of the unit they had been in combat with on their right shoulder.

The CAB was introduced after the Iraq war was underway for the purpose of recognizing those soldier who were not in the infantry who had been in combat. It was specifically created NOT TO BE AWARDED TO THE INFANTRY.
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #21
145. gully, YOU ARE SO WRONG!!! LOL - check the berets again!!
OMG - are you blind?

The photo you posted has the beret sloping downward over his right ear:
You said about this photo: "His beret in the video is placed in the same position as this mans is."


And here is Jesse Macbeth:


It's over his LEFT ear.

Open your eyes. He is a fake.


If you can't see what is right in front of your face, how can you trust your instincts? Talk about wanting to believe in something so blindly...
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stevekatz Donating Member (139 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. not to mention
Only marines fold thier sleeves like that,, the army never does that. I've worked with Army, Navy, and Marines quite alot.. I'm Active Duty Air Force.
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
37. Never say never
I was in the Army and was ordered to roll (well fold) my sleeves on both active duty and in the reserves. The decision to roll the sleeves is made by the unit commander who has a grasp of the local climate.
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. First time I have ever heard this.
I served in smotheringly hot and humid enviroments (Korea and Panama) and suffocatingly hot Desert Enviroments. Never was allowed to roll the sleeves up Marine style. Hell, in Desert Storm we had to have our sleeves down and vests on anytime time we left the perimeter. 120 degrees was not a rare occurance.

You probably had a more tolerant Post Commander where you were.
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. They make the sleeves like that now, check it out:
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #43
53. Those are properly...
folded Army sleves. The ones on Jesse's photo are rolled up inside out, Marine style. A big no no in the Army.

There is a purpose to wearing the sleeves like the Army does. To pull them down, you just grab the cuff and pull and they slide down your arm. Marine style you have to unroll them.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #53
73. You're absolutely correct. n/t
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pecwae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #53
86. That's how we
'air conditioned' at Ft. Bragg, 1st SOCOM. Even though there were certain dates the CO could make the call in warmer than usual weather. We wore only green T's and gave shit to reservists/NG who came on post wearing white ones (that was 82-86). And we ripped the lining from our berets, red, black or green, as soon as we got one, soaked it so it wouldn't bleed in rain and it fit much better.

My video isn't working so haven't seen Jessie.
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AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #23
38. Thank you for your service!
:hi:
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pocket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #23
54. navy rolls their sleeves like that
marine-style
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genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #23
57. No Army does fold their sleeves that way
The Marines fold their sleeves inwards. So that on the old style cammies (woodland pat) the inner white color with the outside cammo showing through was out. On the new pixel Cammies (Marine pat) it is similar.

The Army did a special fold so that only Camo showed on the outside. It made them more tactical.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #23
71. I think you may be mistaken...
The sleeves are rolled up like that in the Army. It's even in Army regulations as to HOW to roll your sleeves up! Just read AR 670-1! I was in the Army for five years, and I got out just about 2 1/2 years ago. We did/do in fact roll our sleeves, but unless you're saying we don't roll them in the matter that this Macbeth character did/does, you're dead wrong. Look on page 35 of the following PDF link: http://www.armyrotc.vt.edu/Cadets/r670_1.pdf

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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #71
81. THAT was bizarre!!! As a non-military person...It's not that I'm surprised
to learn they dictate the length of your mustache hairs..I mean...they have to control every part of a person in order to make them do their "duty", especially when the administration is as corrupt as this one. Have mercy on the pour souls who chose this as a career and have mercy on us all for being so unable to help.
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pecwae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #81
87. They do dictate mustach length!
When Leroy Suddath took the reins of 1st SOCOM after Joesph Lutz we had a command formation. Suddath relieved at least 2 captains of their company command (ending careers) because some of their troops had mustaches not to his liking. That was Black Monday on Smoke Bomb Hill. Not a mustach to be seen anywhere on Tuesday.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. Customizing of the uniform, been done forever and sometimes on accident
I once went outside without headgear on and got chewed up and down by the battalion commander. Just ran out of the barracks without thinking and ran right into him. All I'm saying is that this guy, if he tortured people, is not the 'cream of the crop'. The type who would wear their beret backward.
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. I am sure the Special Forces Flash on his beret...
was an accident also. If this guy is going to besmirch my old unit he needs to be a little more convincing that he is a Ranger.

There has not been anything that I have seen from him to make me believe he is a Ranger, but I have seen plenty to make me believe he is a poser. Until I believe he is a Ranger, I see everything he CLAIMS to have done to be bullshit.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Maybe just some regular army dude that inflated his position
ran out and bought some fake shit to stick on a beret and pose as someone far more important. Wouldn't be the first time.
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Wouldn't be the first time...
someone who said what people wanted to hear started a stampede even if it was lies to begin with.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. So true.
nt
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #32
44. Expand on the "special forces flash" situation for me.
I don't understand your point. Sorry.
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. Every Unit that wears a beret...
wears a crest (Flash) on their beret. There is one for each battalion or brigade. Each one is distinctive and is ISSUED to you upon arriving at a unit. The crest/flash on this poser's beret is the one for 1st Special Forces Group, not 3rd Ranger Battalion. I know, my beret from 3rd Ranger Battalion is hanging on the corner of my dresser mirror with the flash still on it.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
83. He could very well suffer from some kind of grandiose delusion syndrome
Remember those journalists (name escapes me but they made a movie about one of them) who habitually made up stories? They wanted to be part of something larger than themselves, and they thought they could get away with claiming they saw it happen.
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
19. I think I saw a dirty hippie spit on him as well.
:shrug:
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guinivere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
22. You know, either way
it's just sad.

It sad that some yahoo would try to impersonate a soldier and say those horrible things. If it was true, it's sad to think that there might be some guys out there that do these things.

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IselaB Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
59. I agree
Although I think it is magnitudes less sad to discover this guy is a fake than to have to deal with what he was claiming.

I'll be curious to hear this guy's story when this is all shaken out. What drives a guy to do something like this? Some desperate need for attention? Was it a calculated political stunt? Who is this guy and why would he pretend to be a Ranger? I am very curious.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #59
162. Worst of both worlds: the guy is a fake, but what he's claiming is true
I wouldn't be surprised at all. Hell, it fits the RW propaganda pattern just fine: in the case of an embarrassing situation, just have someone come out with the truth in a phoney way, and by discrediting the messenger you discredit the message. Too easy.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
52. I just saw a pic of the guy, but not wearing a beret.
He damn sure didn't look like a Ranger to me.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #52
82. pft.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #82
97. Gullible.
pft
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #97
147. I thought you were just kidding! I was giggling at your sharp
sense of humor. For what it's worth, I haven't formed an opinion yet.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #52
89. Doesn't look like a Ranger? feeble argument.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #89
96. It's not an argument. It's an observation. n/t
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #96
100. then it's irrelevant. nt
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
58. Recommend this thread if you believe DU should be reality-based.
Edited on Mon May-22-06 09:23 PM by Clarkie1
Are we a reality-based community or not? One of the threads supporting this imposter has 51 recommendations.

Recommend it for all the men and women who serve honorably in the United States armed forces. Yes, the U.S. military has committed atrocities, but lies like this only serve to undermine our own credibility, dishoner those who serve, and aid those who wish us harm.

The good name of DU is at stake. Where do you stand?
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IselaB Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. Done.
As a liberal I believe you can't begin to be right until you have first learned to respect the truth. That other view, that the truth is the truth regardless of the facts, is what THEY believe.




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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. Aid those who wish to harm us? I call foul. You are using an
accusation that would make Bush proud. Speaking out against the United States Armed Forces aids those who wish us harm? Wrong. Being on the look out for and speaking out against war atrocities keeps us safe - war atrocities produce more terrorists.

The US military does not keep us safe, they put us in danger. Since WWII, the CIA and military have carried out missions that have caused outrageous harm to this world and put us all in danger from the blowback.

Video: What I've Learned About US Foreign Policy: America's Third World War
<http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=345326178965867... >

Video: America's Third World War:
How 6 million People Were killed in CIA secret wars against third world countries.
John Stockwell, former CIA Station Chief in Angola in 1976, working for then Director of the CIA, George Bush. He spent 13 years in the agency. He gives a short history of CIA covert operations. He is a very compelling speaker and the highest level CIA officer to testify to the Congress about his actions. He estimates that over 6 million people have died in CIA covert actions, and this was in the late 1980's.
<http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4068.ht... >

Book: Killing Hope: 250 Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II
< http://members.aol.com/bblum6/American_holocaust.htm >
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #62
79. Let's add a dose of reality to your post, o.k?
Edited on Tue May-23-06 12:45 AM by Clarkie1
Speak out against the U.S. armed forces all you wish, but when you speak out, speak truthfully. That's all I'm saying.

You are not seriously defending this video, are you?
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #79
92. I am not defending the video. I am defending the right to speak
out against the military and the government and the corporations without being accused of "helping those who wish to harm us." In my opinion, no one should ever stifle debate by using the warning of 'aiding those who wish us harm us.' Open-minded debate is healthy. I am willing to be convinced that MacBeth is a fake - your warning that debate could only 'aid those who wish us harm' is heavy-handed at best.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #92
159. You are completely misinterpreting what I said.
It is the fake video itself that could potentially aid those who wish us harm.

It can be used as propaganda.
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titoresque Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #58
63. "Aid those who wish us harm"
and who might that be? If you're suggesting those terrorists way over there and you're also suggesting a reality based DU....I suggest you start first. Get real.

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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. Terrorists who can use the video as propaganda.
Absolutely.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #67
166. What "terrorists"? Everyone knows about the atrocities being committed.
Everyone knows the war itself is a war crime. Everyone knows that hundreds of thousands of innocents have been murdered on the basis of a lie.

It doesn't matter if Mickey Mouse is telling you these things -- they are happening. And they are wrong.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #58
68. This is not what Murtha was talking about, I hope
Say it isn't so. When I first read that part about shooting kids one at a time, I thought that was pretty far over the top. Then again, the same might have been said at My Lai.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #68
80. No, it is not. The incident Murtha is speaking out about was real. n/t
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #58
146. Done - Mine brought the count to 36
:hi:
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Iblis Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #58
168. clarkie1, you were right all along.
The only reason I've stayed out until now, was deferring to people with more knowledge that would out this guy eventually and not inadvertantly kicking to the top, like NanceGregg and Peacetheonlyway....

I'm kicking now though!!

L
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PuraVidaDreamin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
64. Maybe whoever stole that laptop computer could confirm this!
So laptop thief is he or isn't he a vet with a stolen identity?
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
66. K and R
:kick:
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
69. Because some right wing blogger says so ????
Talk about being gullible! Don't you know that just because some poster on the internet says something doesn't make it true? You can believe what you want to believe, whatever makes it easier to sleep at night and trust that all is well, and that soldiers would never kill innocents, or whatever, but simply closing your eyes to what is happening in Iraq will change nothing.
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. If such atrocities are happening...
I won't believe it from the mouth of this poser.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. "If" ??? "If" ???
Goodbye
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. Who else has come forward?
This guy has not even told the truth about himself. He has not told the truth about his service. The unit he says he served in Falujah with was at Ft. Benning at the time. No. I WILL NOT believe him on this one.

As far as Jesse MacBeth is concerned, I believe he has to have someone else call his dog because not even Fido believes anything he says.

Messengers like this are never going to convince me of anything. Now if Jason Leopold had said it...oh wait.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #75
167. This tactic was used to deny Bush skipped his National Guard duty.
The CBS News report was true and never denied by anyone from the Bush camp, yet they focused on the origin of two documents to attempt to discredit what was proven to be true -- Bush skipped his National Guard duty.
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Julius Civitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-22-06 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #72
77. The guy is a poser, and this story smells real bad
Remember the Rovian trick of "discrediting the source"?

Stay vigilant. To me, it feels like this guy is the new TANG documents, a "fishing expedition" of a semi-believable story that is later easy to refute and ridicule.

Don't bite.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #77
84. Good point. I replied to the original thread but reserved judgement.
Stay alert. If Rove is doing it, others will pick up on it. This could be some kind of right-wing discrediting hoax, or even a cadre of lefties trying to "heighten the contradictions" by publishing false information (sad but true). I'd hate to imagine anyone in gov't would stoop so low as to put this guy out there to discredit IVAW.

Has anyonw contacted IVAW to encourage them to disassociate with this guy before they get Rathered or Leopolded?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #77
90. Stay vigilant, yes - but "is a poser" based on "feels like" -
Not good enough.

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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #90
94. Many men go through Ranger School...
and turn out to not be good enough. No one ridicules or looks down on them. They tried and should be proud of having done so. Also, they know what standard has to be achieved to become a Ranger. They respect that.

A poser is different. A poser goes out and buys a Ranger Beret, sews Jump Wings on his uniform and wears a Ranger Scroll without ever have paid one drop of the sweat and blood REAL Rangers paid to earn the right to wear theirs.

The right to call yourself a Ranger is EARNED. And it is earned at a steep physical price. No man who deserves to wear a Ranger Beret or scroll just because he says he does.

Jesse MacBeth is a liar who has besmirched my brother Rangers not only by lying about some nonexistent operation in Fallujah, but by claiming to be a Ranger.

He does not deserve to be heard. He deserves to be dragged behind a Humvee by real Rangers.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #94
99. First you'd have to prove he's not a Ranger.
"doesn't look like one" or "doesn't feel right" won't cut it.

The fascist in the WH takes decisions based on his gut feelings, we're supposed to be rational people.
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #99
116. What Reason is there to believe ...
he is a real Ranger? No Ranger would ever be issued a Special Forces flash to wear on his beret. He has his beret on back wards. His sleeves are rolled up wrong. The unit he claims to have fought in Falujah with was never there.

What reason is there to believe this guy?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #116
122. Who says the unit was never in Faluja?
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #122
142. When the Operation in Fallujah was taking place...
the dates he gives for being there with 3rd Ranger Battalion, 3rd Ranger Battalion was back at Ft. Benning. In fact, on that date they were being awarded a Campaign Streamer.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #142
152. How do i find out whether that's true or false?
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #94
103. Dragged behind a Humvee by real Rangers?
I can think of a lot of people who have done far, far more damage who I would not do that to.

Your tone is exactly why the US Military should be dissolved. Jefferson was against a standing army and I am too. It harbors and encourages the violent in our society.

:thumbsdown:
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #103
117. I would not expect you to understand...
but there is no lower form of life to a Ranger than a guy who falsely claims to be one. No lower form of life to a SEAL than a guy who falsely claims to be one.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #117
121. No lower form of life then people who think it's proper punishment
to drag a guy behind a hummer.
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #121
143. That is just bluster...
but believe me, a poser like Jesse MacBeth has no friends in the Ranger or Spec Ops community.

Every soldier who has earned the right to call himself a Ranger will NEVER have any respect for a guy who not only pretends to be one, but fucks it up as royally as this guy.

Let me ask you, why do YOU believe him? What do you see in him that make you believe?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
78. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 06:30 AM
Response to Original message
88. Because of wearing his beret backwards?
Not good enough.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #88
98. Or that the unit he said he was in was in the USA
at the time ofthe alleged incident.

Gullible much?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #98
101. source much?
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #101
124. Read down the thread, Mr. Gullible. n/t
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #124
135. don't fucking insult me.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #101
128. I was in the Army for twelve years, and yes, I am a Ranger.
That's my primary source for a spotting a lying fraud who says he was a Ranger.

It must be an easy life, just believing what you want to believe, without evidence. What a happy lala land it must be.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #128
136. what reason do i have to believe you?
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #136
138. I don't give a damn if you believe me or not. n/t
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Tulum_Moon Donating Member (556 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #98
120. Why is everyone so quick to dismiss him?
I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt. He speaks the truth until found untruthful.
Like innocent until pr oven guilty.
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #120
144. He is easy to dismiss...
because there is not one thing about this guy that a Ranger would be caught dead doing. The wearing of the beret is the first thing. The Special Forces flash on the beret. What possible reason is there for him to wear that? You cannot even say that he may have been issued that by mistake because the supply room at 3rd Ranger Battalion would not even have them. If he had been issued that by mistake it would have been mere minutes before his Squad Sergeant, his Platoon Sergeant, First Sergeant, Platton Leader, Company Commander, Company XO pointed it out to him.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #88
105. How's this.
A mish-mash of medals and patches. Shirt old, patches all new.

16 months' service in Iraq as of Dec. '03--according to a story from 2004--when his unit was stateside in August, and the war began in March '03. Winter '04 he spent protesting in Arizona. Before being picked up to make videos and go on tour.

Let's say the Rangers were ranging in Iraq months before the war. That means the war started massacring Iraqis in August '02 or so. Don't think Saddam might have noticed this little problem? It would make great PR--photos plastered about the UN of Iraqi women and children killed with American bullets, testimony of pale-faced non-Arabic speakers marauding in the countryside. I missed that.

His pay grade doesn't work out. He should have been promoted. But he might have had his rank reduced, let's give him the benefit of the doubt on this point. So they sent a guy to Iraq under cover in Ranger hit squads months before the war who was demoted--most likely because he couldn't follow orders? That's asking for severe trouble.

Then there are the reports that the battalion he was 'with' was never assigned to where he was; and that the one where he was stationed was never there for the length of time he says. But hey, Fallujah, Georgia--they all look the same, and surely Southern English sounds a lot like Arabic, esp. with that funny accent in Georgia. You think he'd notice the humidity.

Now, these aren't trivial mistakes--saying he had eggs for breakfast last March 13, when, in fact, he had English muffins. It's saying he wasn't aware of what battalion he was with, or where he was stationed, what medals and promotions he got. He can't tell the difference between 9 months and 16 months, Iraq and Georgia, and has a 7-month 'black out' to boot. This is not a reliable witness. Guys 'in the culture' will pick up on things he does wrong that are important within the culture. What's important isn't convincing you, but what the truth is. There are various ways of getting to the truth, but there should only be one. Those of us who weren't in the culture, we're left with other huge discrepancies to arrive at the same conclusion.

And if this is one of the "documented" and "proven" cases of atrocities ...
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #105
112. They were 'secretly' bombing Iraq,
Edited on Tue May-23-06 09:45 AM by Lars39
so it's not totally implausible that there were ground troops in before Shock and Awe, too.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1669640,00...
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Julius Civitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #112
114. But that's a stretch, even when giving the benefit of the doubt
It's not one or two things that don't fit the story. Just about everything this guy claimed is dubious at least, but most likely mendacious. Are you guys trying to give this guy the benefit of the doubt on all the piling inconsistencies that keep popping up? Come on! This reeks.

This is either a hoax or a set up.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #114
118. I have to defer to those that have served as to whether this guy
is legit or not.
I was addressing the point of whether we had troops in Iraq before the invasion officially started. :hi:
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #112
169. Certainly there were.
That's pretty much acknowledged.

But that far in advance is a problem, since they weren't using people on the ground for their targeting; radar traces and satellite images were enough for that, no need to posit men on the ground. Now it's possible, but somebody needs to provide evidence for it. The default assumption is that we didn't have troops on the ground that far in advance; they'd have been useful intelligence assets, and completely demolished all kinds of NIE conclusions.

Saddam would also have dearly loved to have caught even one rogue American soldier killing civilians, or one massacre to bring before the UN; given the general situation on the ground now--and probably then--few Iraqis would have sheltered the American troops.
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
102. A page to watch...
Edited on Tue May-23-06 09:17 AM by mcscajun
http://www.suasponte.com/frauds.htm

If Jesse MacBeth is a fraud, sooner or later, this site will be exposing him.

Meanwhile, another blogger weighs in, calling MacBeth the "Nimrod of the Week":
Today, the Army ran a check on Mr. MacBeths credentials. It turns out, not surprisingly to anybody with half a mind, that Mr. MacBeth has NO Army service record. Anywhere. Period. This is a direct quote given to me by Army spokesman John Boyce:
Initial research by the U.S. Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg shows no Soldier with the name of Jesse Macbeth having ever been assigned to the Special Forces or the Army Rangers -- which are, in fact, two separate disciplines. This appears to be some sort of hoax. No Soldier by that name at Fort Lewis to our knowledge, in the past, either. Of course, the line about "go into the Army or go to jail" is vintage TV script not heard since the 1960s. There are also numerous wear and appearance issues with the Soldier's uniform -- a mix of foreign uniforms with the sleeves rolled up like a Marine and a badly floppy tan beret worn like a pastry chef. Of course, the allegations of war crimes are vague, as are the awards the Soldier allegedly received.

http://justcitizens.blogspot.com

Of course, there's no explanation of how this blogger got the Army to run such a check or what connections he has to enable it. An FOIA request might turn something up on MacBeth, but meanwhile, I'm betting on www.suasponte.com

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negativenihil Donating Member (772 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
104. k&r in the hopes that the truth will come out n/t
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DTinAZ Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
107. Explanation from the owner of Peacefilms.org
The person who put the video on a website (peacefilms.org) wrote an explanation in the Guest Book on the site, which I've reproduced here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

DT
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
109. From a Usenet posting announcing an anti-war protest.
He's being billed as being former Special Forces...

Hello PUSO Listserve folks,

I just wanted to mention, not one, but TWO upcoming events that
PUSO/ISM delegates will be involved in. The second event takes place
in Tacoma, so if anyone is interested in carpooling, please don't
hesitate to contact me (Wakx). Hope to see your faces out there! Or
around Seattle in general.

Peace,
Wakx
wakin...@gmail.com

--Event #1--

RAIN OR SHINE! TUESDAY NIGHT! please forward widely

Join World Can't Wait-Drive Out the Bush Regime, Progressive Democrats
of America, The Backbone Campaign, Not In Our Name and thousands of
people from around Washington state as we:

BRING THE NOISE & DROWN OUT BUSH'S LIES DURING HIS STATE OF THE UNION ADDRESS!

Our message? BUSH STEP DOWN - and take your program with you!

Protests are now planned in 64 different cities on Jan. 31, including
New York City, Washington DC, Chicago, Los Angeles, and San
Francisco. Bianca Jagger, Rev. Al Sharpton, Cindy Sheehan & Gore
Vidal are set to speak on Jan. 31, more TBA.

John Conyers, US Representative (D) from Michigan who has been pushing
for impeachment in Congress has now signed the Call for The World
Can't Wait - Drive Out the Bush Regime.

Speakers in Seattle include:
Sheley "Akila" Secrest, Executive Committee, Seattle NAACP
Rev. Rich Lang, Trinity United Methodist Church, Seattle, Washington.
Trixy Garcia, 2005 Delegate to the International Solidarity Mission
(ISM) & member of AnakBayan Seattle
Jesse MacBeth, former Special Forces; Iraq War Veteran, member of Iraq
Veterans Against the War stationed in Iraq 2003 to 2004.

Larry Hildes, National Lawyers Guild
Gordon Orians, Professor Emeritus of Biology, University of Washington
Bill Moyer, The Backbone Campaign
Margo Heights- prominent activist with World Can't Wait- Drive out the
Bush Regime and Not in Our Name (NION)
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #109
110. Is he Special Forces or Ranger?
Maybe he should figure that out first.
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
111. If people believe chem trails and 500 acre FEMA prison sites..
Why wouldn't they believe this? It's on the Internets, it has to be real...
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #111
126. I have no doubt such attrocities do happen
but it's quite possible this is an attempt to discredit the peace movement.

Remember Abu Graib, illegal CIA prisons, Gitmo. What happens there is on par with the allegations of this guy. Nevertheless, we better be sure this guy is for real.

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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #126
132. Or maybe... just maybe he's a worthless loser starving for attention?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #132
133. Whatever - still does not mean such atrocities don't happen.
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #133
156. But Jesse MacBeth sure as hell can't be...
a spokesman as to whether they happened or not. Even IVAW is distancing themselves from him.

His fans have slowly been whittled down to just you, it seems.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #156
165. He may not be who he says he is -- and yet tell the truth.
This is turning into the Bush Skipping National Guard story, where there was no question Bush failed to show up, but his defenders highlighted only the origin of certain documents, regardless of the fact that what the documents said was never disputed.
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fun n serious Donating Member (102 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
113. He resigned

Irar Veterans Againt War, he was a member there and has resigned.
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Julius Civitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
119. This solves it: He wasn't in the army, and he has a rap sheet for FRAUD
Edited on Tue May-23-06 10:54 AM by Julius Civitatus
OK, people wake up! This was a clear hoax from the beginning, and it looks like it was aimed to discredit the left, as usual. This new info should clear any doubts for those who insist on defending the clown in that video:

He has a rap sheet for credit card fraud, and he was in AZ when he claimed to be in Iraq:

http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/james-macbeths-d...

Further research reveals this guy has never even been to the army:

http://justcitizens.blogspot.com

Today, the Army ran a check on Mr. MacBeths credentials. It turns out, not surprisingly to anybody with half a mind, that Mr. MacBeth has NO Army service record. Anywhere. Period. This is a direct quote given to me by Army spokesman John Boyce:

Initial research by the U.S. Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg shows no Soldier with the name of Jesse Macbeth having ever been assigned to the Special Forces or the Army Rangers -- which are, in fact, two separate disciplines. This appears to be some sort of hoax. No Soldier by that name at Fort Lewis to our knowledge, in the past, either. Of course, the line about "go into the Army or go to jail" is vintage TV script not heard since the 1960s. There are also numerous wear and appearance issues with the Soldier's uniform -- a mix of foreign uniforms with the sleeves rolled up like a Marine and a badly floppy tan beret worn like a pastry chef. Of course, the allegations of war crimes are vague, as are the awards the Soldier allegedly received.


And Jesse McBeth joined the IVAW claiming he was "Special Forces"... later he claimed "Ranger."

Enough of this crap. It was a crude and cruel hoax, and the real intentions of this hoax may be nastier than we think.

Notice this Jesse Guy was in the news before, also claiming to be an Iraq war veteran, and he attempted to start another myth similar to that old myth of "hippies spitting on Vietnam veterans." Jesse McBeth claimed he was kicked out of a coffee shop for wearing a military uniform.

This whole thing is very suspicious to me. It feels like a fishing expedition, a bad hoax set out for someone on the left to bite. Beware!
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #119
123. Wel then, someone better inform IVAW.
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DTinAZ Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #123
125. first they need to pick up their phone...
Edited on Tue May-23-06 11:49 AM by DTinAZ
...tried calling them...eventually left a message suggesting that they should publish a disclaimer on their website ASAP.

on edit: they finally answered and confirmed that he had resigned.

DT
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fun n serious Donating Member (102 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #125
127. I called them and they answered.
They said, they are investigating and that he has resigned.
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Julius Civitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #123
129. He resigned from the IVAW.
Seriously, give it up.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #129
134. Give what up?
I've been told to give it up a few times to many - now i'm alergic.

I think i'm gonna email IVAW to verify.
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DTinAZ Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #134
137. just spoke with IVAW
and they confirmed that he resigned his membership in their organization last night. They're not quite ready to put out any official statements regarding this situation yet, however, in that they're still investigating everything.

DT
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #119
130. But wait! There's more...
http://www.co.pierce.wa.us/cfapps/linx/calendar/GetCrim...

Pierce County Superior Court Criminal Case 06-1-01994-8
Defendant: JESSE ADAM MACBETH
Access: Public
Jurisdiction: SUPERIOR CT - PIERCE CTY
Initial Arrest Date:
Initial Bail Amount: $0.00

Attorneys
Type Name Firm Role
Prosecutor MARY E. ROBNETT Prosecuting Attorney LEAD COUNSEL

Charges
Count Type Description RCW Disposition Sentence Date
1 Original VIOLATION OF A COURT ORDER (PROTECTION/OTHER) 26.50.110, 26.50.110(4)
2 Original ASSAULT IN THE FOURTH DEGREE 9A.36.041(1), 9A.36.041(2)
3 Original VIOLATION OF A COURT ORDER (PROTECTION/OTHER) 26.50.110, 26.50.110(4)
4 Original ASSAULT IN THE FOURTH DEGREE 9A.36.041(1), 9A.36.041(2)

Filings

e-file document

Filing Date Filing Access Pages Microfilm
05/03/2006 CERTIFICATE OF ADDRESS SEARCH Public 1
05/03/2006 Information Public 3
05/03/2006 Affidavit/Determination for Probable Cause Public 2
05/04/2006 ORDER FOR ISSUANCE OF SUMMONS Public 1
05/04/2006 SUMMONS Public 1
05/05/2006 RETURN ON SUMMONS Public 1
05/18/2006 MOTION AND AFFIDAVIT FOR BENCH WARRANT Public 1

Proceedings
Date Judge Dept Type Outcome
05/17/2006 01:30 PM CRIMINAL DIVISION 2 CD2 CASE ISSUED-SUMM/ARRAIGN DEF FTA, BW ORDERED

Incidents
Incident Number Law Enforcement Agency Offense Date
060951159 LAKEWOOD POLICE DEPARTMENT 04/05/2006
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DTinAZ Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #130
131. warrant out for his arrest!
Isn't that what this means? Looks like things are going from bad to worse for Mr. Macbeth.

DT
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #130
149. ...And even more - looks like he got sued for not paying rent:
Of course, I'm not 100% if this is the same JESSE MACBETH that did credit card fraud twice in Arizona, but it sure sounds like his Modus Operandi.

http://geronimo.jp.co.pima.az.us/casesearch/DisplayCivi...

(I highlighted his name, the plaintiff's name, the date and the $ amount)

Pima County Consolidated Justice Courts
Retrieving Information for case CV05-001120B

Return to Case Search Page

5/23/06

Tucson JP Civil Docket CASE NUMBER
------------------
CV05-001120A-FD PLAINTIFF -------------------------------
ARIZONA FIRST REALTY
ET AL : 1
ATTY NBR : 10656
ATTY NAME :
NATURE :
POSS PROP :
CLAIM/CC : $725.00
FILED_ : 14-Jan-2005

ANSWER :
ENTRY DEF :
CT ACTION :
ACTION TYPE : HEARING
SIGNED :
JUDGMT TYPE : COURT
MAILED :
TERM DATE : 25-Jan-2005
SET ASIDE : 0000-00-00
SATISFACTION :
PROPERTY ADD :
BOND AMOUNT : $0.00
BOND PAID : $0.00


JUDGE : WEBER
WRIT REST : 01-Feb-2005
JUDGMT FOR : P
COST :
Cost/CONS : $
APPL DEFAULT :
ATTY :
AWARD : $725.00
AWARD COST : $46.00
AWARD ATTY :
INTEREST : 0.000%
ACCRUAL : $



BOND TYPE :
BOND DISPO :

-----------------G E N E R AL---------------------


-------------------A C C O U N T I N G---------------
SUM ISSUED :
SUM SERVED :
SUM RETURN :
SERV TYPE :
TERM TYPE : COURT
SA_JUDGMENT :
MOTION SET :
CONTINUES :
HEARING TYPE : FD
CALENDARED : 09:00
Tickler :
Comment :
Property Address :


CODE PLAINTIFF
23 $21.00
23 $17.00
$0.00
$0.00
---------------------
TOTAL DUE $38.00
TOTAL BALANCE $0.00


Tickle Date:




ACCOUNT TRANSACTION STATEMENT
5/23/06

Tucson JP Civil Docket CASE NUMBER
------------------
CV05-001120B-FD DEFENDANT -------------------------------
MACBETH, JESSE
ET AL : 1
ATTY NBR :
ATTY NAME :
NATURE :
POSS PROP :
CLAIM/CC :
FILED_ :

ANSWER :
ENTRY DEF :
CT ACTION :
ACTION TYPE : HEARING
SIGNED :
JUDGMT TYPE : COURT
MAILED :
TERM DATE : 25-Jan-2005
SET ASIDE : 0000-00-00
SATISFACTION :
PROPERTY ADD :
BOND AMOUNT : $0.00
BOND PAID : $0.00


JUDGE : WEBER
WRIT REST :
JUDGMT FOR : P
COST :
Cost/CONS : $
APPL DEFAULT :
ATTY :
AWARD :
AWARD COST :
AWARD ATTY :
INTEREST : 0.000%
ACCRUAL : $



BOND TYPE :
BOND DISPO :

-----------------G E N E R AL---------------------


-------------------A C C O U N T I N G---------------
SUM ISSUED :
SUM SERVED : 15-Jan-2005
SUM RETURN : 20-Jan-2005
SERV TYPE :
TERM TYPE : COURT
SA_JUDGMENT :
MOTION SET :
CONTINUES :
HEARING TYPE :
CALENDARED :
Tickler :
Comment :
Property Address : 2727 N ORACLE ROAD #234 TUCSO


CODE DEFENDANT
$0.00
$0.00
$0.00
$0.00
---------------------
TOTAL DUE $0.00
TOTAL BALANCE $0.00


Tickle Date:

CASE: CV05001120-FD
Plaintiff: ARIZONA FIRST REALTY
Defandant: MACBETH, JESSE

ITEM DATE REF PROCEEDING ENTRY
---------- --------- ---------- -----------------------------
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
139. Yup. Critical thinking is lacking sometimes around here.
It does get pretty tiresome. People bring in whatever old crap they might find.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #139
140. Conclusions were drawn both ways before the jury got back.
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #140
148. And the ones who called him a fake...
were right. Should a new thread be started for apologies or will they just be given here?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #148
151. Apologies? You must be kidding.
Those who called him a fake before the jury got back provided no conclusive evidence, so they were jumping to conclusions.
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #151
153. I called him a fake because he was a fake...
I did not jump to any conclusions. His own words, the dates he gave, hell, his picture was what made everyone that called him a fake, conclude that he was a fake.

I was right, you were fooled. But I guess you won't admit to that either.

I remember on of my first days in kindergarten. I used to take a lunch. My grandmother used to make the worlds greatest oatmeal cookies. My mom made some of the worst oatmeal cookies in history.

One afternoon as luck would have it, they both made oatmeal cookies. My grandmom who lived a couple of doors down the street from us brought a batch of her cookies.

The next day at lunch I hurried and ate my sandwich so I could enjoy my grandmother's oatmeal cookies. To my dismay, I was stuck with my mom's horrible cookies. As much as I wished it not to be, as bad as I wanted it to be my grandmother's cookies, they were not. It was my mom's cookies I was stuck with.

Pretty much what happened to you here. You thought you were getting John Kerry testifying in front of a Senate committee but in reality wound up with a guy who was not even a soldier at all.

John Kerry did not have to lie about who he was to get people to listen to him. This guy did. That was enough to cast doubt on anything he said.

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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #153
157. Get OVER yourself!
:rofl:

The guy was a fake, he's been debunked.

You are not in line for apologies.

Jeez.
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Scoody Boo Donating Member (634 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #157
158. So, I was right all along.
That laughing smilely :rofl: , that was me when I saw this guy's photo. Too bad there isn't one of a smiley doing an endzone dance. I would have posted one when he was thoroughly debunked.

The guy was a poser and cast aspersions on my old unit and brother Rangers. Whatever story he was pushing or tale he had to tell mattered little to me after that.

Too many fake Rangers, SEALS, and Green Berets out there and need this exact thing to happen them, exposure.
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DTinAZ Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
150. the video will be removed from peacefilms.org "ASAP"
Edited on Tue May-23-06 01:36 PM by DTinAZ
from a Guestbook post made by the owner of peacefilms.org:

The Jessie interview will be taken down as soon as possible at the request of Iraq veterans Against the War pending their further investigation. For further information, please see: www.ivaw.net


on edit: I just checked and "peacefilms.org" is now displaying only a graphic of the Earth (seems to be centered right over southwestern France, but there's way too much ice in the Arctic area, given the effects of global warming...).

DT
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-23-06 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
155. Another reason why I love this place.
Just reading about this story for the 1st time....I'm way behind the times, internet age-wise, I guess. I like how a story can be challenged and corrected, real time. Nothing like it in the corporate news media. This guy is either looking for attention or he's a plant. I think the former, though; who really wants to have their integrity ruined to further Rove's political agenda? He sounds like a really sad, pathetic person who wanted his 15 minutes of fame. I think he got it, but not exactly how he wanted it to occur.

As much as I would want the truth about atrocities exposed, I don't want to see them manufactured, either. Kudos to all for their pursuit of the truth, even if it doesn't necessarily support our beliefs. I could easily have been a poster who K&R'd the initial thread....no shame there, but it does underscore our need to be skeptical and questioning, even if it counters our world view.
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Iblis Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
163. Where is NanceGregg?
better keep this Kicked up for her!

:-)

L
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Iblis Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #163
164. Ooops!
I kicked it again!

:-)

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