OFFICIAL TRUTHOUT/LEOPOLD THREAD 18

[RoadRunner]

From Skinner:

We are instructing the moderators to lock all threads about Jason Leopold and his Rove indictment story. If you wish to continue discussing this issue, you may do so here.

When this thread reaches approximately 100 replies, the moderators will lock it and open a new one.

Thank you for your understanding.

Skinner
DU Admin

Thread 17 is here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1238704&mesg_id=1238704

[Catherine Vincent]

1. Fitz!!!!

:bounce: :-) :bounce:

[uppityperson]

3. dang you are fast.

[Scout1071]

2. Deja vu

I could swear I saw Thread 18 once before today.....

[onenote]

4. My ode to thread 18

Lines form on my face and hands -- lines form from the ups and downs
I'm in the middle without any plans I'm a boy and I'm a man
I'm eighteen and I don't know what I want eighteen I just don't know what I want
Eighteen I gotta get away I gotta get out of this place I'll go runnin' in outer space oh yeah

I got a baby's brain and an old man's heart took eighteen years to get this far
Don't always know what I'm talkin' about feels like I'm livin' in the middle of doubt
'cause I'm eighteen I get confused every day eighteen I just don't know what to say eighteen I gotta get away
Whoa lines form on my face and my hands lines form on the left and right
I'm in the middle the middle of life I'm a boy and I'm a man
I'm eighteen and I like it yes I like it oh I like it love it like it love it

Eighteen eighteen eighteen eighteen and I like it

[LA lady]

5. Has this been posted?

http://forum.truthout.org/blog/story/2006/5/19/162339/178

The Rove Indictment Story as of Right Now

By Marc Ash,

Fri May 19th, 2006 at 04:23:39 PM EDT :: Fitzgerald Investigation


On Saturday afternoon, May 13, 2006, TruthOut ran a story titled, "Karl Rove Indicted on Charges of Perjury, Lying to Investigators." The story stated in part that top Bush aide Karl Rove had earlier that day been indicted on the charges set forth in the story's title.

The time has now come, however, to issue a partial apology to our readership for this story. While we paid very careful attention to the sourcing on this story, we erred in getting too far out in front of the news-cycle. In moving as quickly as we did, we caused more confusion than clarity. And that was a disservice to our readership and we regret it.

As such, we will be taking the wait-and-see approach for the time being. We will keep you posted.

Marc Ash, Executive Director - t r u t h o u t
mailto:[email protected]

[Roon]

7. Again

[Marie26]

8. So, wait

they're officially apologizing for "getting too far out in front of the news cycle?" :rofl: What is that? They're apologizing for the the timing of the story, but not the content? Are they addressing the content of the story at all in that partial non-apology? It doesn't look like it. What "wait and see" approach? The story was wrong - why can't they simply correct it? That's really lame.

[brettdale]

12. No more truthout for me

No More rawstory or truthout for me.

I will stick to DU, Huffingtonpost, Johnconyers jnr Blog, michalemoore.com and bartcop.

[sierrajim]

77. Same for me

And now I have to go slap my shop steward for getting me to go to T.O.

[Catherine Vincent]

55. I am so glad TO posted a statement.

Will that make some of you happy now?

[Marie26]

57. Does it make you happy?

Does that statement explain anything at all?

[Catherine Vincent]

69. It doesn't make me happy, mad, sad or anything. I don't really care.

I never read TO on a daily basis, so I didn't get all excited like some of you when the "Karl Rove has been Indicted" article was posted. As far if the statement makes sense, I guess it does. Apparently we will have to wait for more info from them. I'm thinking even if TO posts a full apology, some will never be satisfied. By reading some of these posts, they want TO to fold completely.

I have always said PATRICK FITZGERALD is who we need to wait on. And still believe things are good with the CIA leak investigation.

[Marie26]

76. I cared about them lying

Yeah, I didn't get excited about the story either. But I did get interested once it started to look like they were intentionally trying to fool people (as opposed to just getting a story wrong). Why should we have to wait for more info from them? Don't they know now who the sources are, what the story is, whether it's true or not? What did they mean by saying they were "too far in front of the news cycle?" Does that phrase make any sense? Either the story was right or it was wrong. Right now, it's pretty clear it was wrong. So they should've just clearly apologized, issued a correction/retraction & moved on. Then, maybe they could recover. Right now, w/this non-apology for a non-story, they've just prolonged the questions & the inevitable embarrassment of a retraction. It's been a week - of continuing stories, clarifications, & new and improved details from Leopold. And this is the best explanation they can come up with? Was the story right, or was it wrong? Defend it, or retract it, but don't try to manipulate people & hide behind meaningless statements. At a newspaper, these editors & reporters would be fired.

[Catherine Vincent]

87. Like I said, once they realize they were set up (or if)

I think they will issue a full apology and Leopold will have to name his sources. I think he should do it.

[Coexist]

6. Re-Posting - Update from TruthOut.

http://forum.truthout.org/blog/story/2006/5/19/162339/178

The Rove Indictment Story as of Right Now

By Marc Ash,

Fri May 19th, 2006 at 04:23:39 PM EDT :: Fitzgerald Investigation


On Saturday afternoon, May 13, 2006, TruthOut ran a story titled, "Karl Rove Indicted on Charges of Perjury, Lying to Investigators." The story stated in part that top Bush aide Karl Rove had earlier that day been indicted on the charges set forth in the story's title.

The time has now come, however, to issue a partial apology to our readership for this story. While we paid very careful attention to the sourcing on this story, we erred in getting too far out in front of the news-cycle. In moving as quickly as we did, we caused more confusion than clarity. And that was a disservice to our readership and we regret it.

As such, we will be taking the wait-and-see approach for the time being. We will keep you posted.

Marc Ash, Executive Director - t r u t h o u t
mailto:[email protected]

[grytpype]

"getting too far out in front of the news-cycle" = making shit up

"We made some shit up. We thought it might be true but it turned out it wasn't. We guessed wrong."

[garybeck]

15. that appears to be the case

they thought it was coming

they wanted to be first

they made it up

shame on them

personally I think Leopold, not all the TO-ers are to blame, but they did back him up when there were obvious questions and uncertainties.

[Marie26]

51. That's it.

It's so unbelievably arrogant for them to come out w/this cavalier non-apology, after the story's already been proved false. Really, who do they think they are? Are they not accountable to their readers? The "news cycle" & "wait & see" thing was extremely patronizing - it's almost like they're trying to fool people all over again. Were they really expecting people to buy this? I can also see why Leopold found such a home there. I used to think they got duped, but this non-explanation now makes me think that they're in it as deep as Leopold is. Kind of like the Bush Adm., they've got to stick to their story now or the whole charade comes crashing down around them. Only here, it already has. Google News was wise to remove this site as a news source.

[tenshi816]

66. as well as "posting the news we wish we had"

instead of "going to post with the news we have"

This sucks on so many levels, doesn't it?

[annabanana]

10. Is getting too far out in front of a news cycle like

getting out in front of a steamroller? Or what?

[fishnfla]

11. earlier that day...the 13th?

I thought they were standing by the 12th?

[Moloch]

31. The "article" was posted on May 13. n/t

[KoKo]

13. They are taking a "Wait and SEE Attitude?" PLEASE! Gimme a Break

here...

While we all twiddle fingers and wait for the latest "update" from them...why don't you read this.

I think it's sad and not something that most folks want to know..but ...give me a break here...

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/5/15/33446/1501

[OldLeftieLawyer]

14. "... we will be taking the wait-and-see approach ....."

So, if we wait along with these folks long enough, all that was written in that perfectly bogus story will somehow turn out to be true?

There will miraculously appear a 24 hour rule of some kind that will quickly and without fuss be inserted into the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure?

There will be substantive proof of a 15-hour meeting at defense counsel's law firm, to which Mr. Fitzgerald went, even though such a meeting would and could never take place, since the author clearly doesn't know how the whole indictment process works?

Proof of an indictment dated May 12, but not yet served, will somehow emerge, as well as an extraordinary reason for holding on to it for as long as it takes to get this story to turn out to be true?

There was a lot of activity at a major DC law firm, so that becomes news?

This thing from Marc Ash isn't a retraction, or an apology, or anything else that would have been appropriate at this point, in my opinion. It's just another assault on the faith of people who believed, and, as such, adds to the misbehavior already noted.

I see now why Jason Leopold was able to get work with this group.

They're as nuts as he is, but they're not as smart as he is.

Match made in heaven.

Shame on them.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

79. A lot of these deleted subthreads, no?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

85. ::::: sigh :::::::

So much for my finest DU moment.............

[Karmakaze]

86. And so the memory hole opens...

and yet more history disappears.

[demobabe]

54. No kidding!

They're as nuts as he is, but they're not as smart as he is.

If I'm not mistaken Truthout as the publisher bears the legal responsibility for Leopold's article? They really got taken.

Truthout's reputation is toast - Wonkette is more credible as a news source in both Google and Yahoo.

Conversely, Leopold has a good story to tell from this. Maybe he'll write some more books.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

61. Yeah,

but no publisher will buy anything he writes.

I'm in the writing business. You do not get to make that sort of move twice. He's in the computer, as my agent says.

[DancingBear]

16. Rubbish

Absolute rubbish.

This weasel bullshit is the best they could come with?

"Too far out in front of the news cycle" - unbelievable.

There must not be a banquet hall on earth big enough to hold their egos.

I literally am speechless.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

19. Really?

So, can I have your cell phone?

[DancingBear]

24. If you want

It smells like onions, though.

Your call.

(phone humor)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

34. You said

"onions" again.

OK, but just this one more time:

[RDU Socialist]

25. we erred in getting too far out in front of the news-cycle

no, they erred in getting too far out in the bullshit-cycle.

[Junkdrawer]

41. Rove is above the law - this kills the "Rove is getting indicted" rumors..

Slick. The Master hasn't lost his touch.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

50. How do you know this?

You think Rove engineered this truthout debacle?

Really?

Fitzgerald's work goes on. It's all in good time, friend. All in good time.

Don't ever give up. But, all in good time.

[Karmakaze]

49. The worst part about this...

Is that this is what they should have said on MONDAY - not now that it is practically certain that the whole thing is bunk. BEFORE Will called people cretins, before good DUers got banned over this.

Now is not the time for "wait and see"! Now is the time for "ok, it's wrong, we believed it but it's wrong, and we're sorry."

[Marie26]

58. That would require some humility

and honesty. And that seems to be in short supply over there.

[Karmakaze]

63. Even today, before this was posted at TO...

I was hoping that they could pull out of this, but I fear you are correct - TO has lost its way, and it is unlikely to find the path again.

[_testify_]

73. People got banned over this?

I had no idea. I have been watching the entire time, too - it's been like watching a car wreck. Can't look away.

[Karmakaze]

74. Yep

Media_Lies_Daily for one...

[brentspeak]

84. Well that guy deserved to get canned

I put him on Ignore, but I would often see things like this:

Ignored: (unreadable by me)

(Random DUer): Hey, Media_Lies_Daily, I'm tired of you calling me a "fascist"...

[Recursion]

68. "Confusion"?

I don't think it was particularly confusing. JL's story was that Rove was indicted last Friday. That statement is either true or false -- it still may turn out either way. If it turns out in three years that Rove was actually indicted on May 12 2006, then JL was right. If it's any other day, JL was wrong.

Reporters miss sometimes. If he's wrong, he'll shake it off.

[tlsmith1963]

9. Good

I tried to post in #17, but it was locked. I want to respond to Truthout's latest statement, that they jumped the gun. I am *pissed*, to say the least. All I have wanted is for Rove to get his. You led me on for a good week, TO! I am so *sick* of this whole era! I wish there was such a thing as a time-machine so I could just *get away*! Everyone just lets me down, all the time! It's an f-ing nightmare! Why can't I just wake up & have it all be over?:mad:

Tammy

[OldLeftieLawyer]

17. Your wish has been granted

It is all over.

There is absolutely no indication, since Fitzgerald doesn't run a leaking operation, that anyone is ever going to be indicted.

Now, that doesn't mean no one will be indicted at some point, but there's really no way to know if it's Karl Rove. So, on that count, no matter how despised he is - and he should be - the simple truth is that no one knows anything.

On the other hand, I think you can safely regard this whole, sad Leopold/truthout debacle as solidly over. None of it was true, and now it's done.

I hope that helps. Even a little bit.

Feel better.

[Cameron27]

22. Sorry, you wouldn't have liked the Nixon years

or the McCarthy years, or the McNamara years. In the end just decide what you believe in, and fight for it.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

64. You know what, pal?

I think the upcoming year is going to be even more interesting than the Nixon years. I really do.

Let's hope.

We'll never stop fighting, will we?

[Cameron27]

81. More interesting than the Nixon years.

OK, I can take it...first I need a lil' drink though.

Oh bye the way, I moved to hotter'n hell AZ cause all of my family moved here. I'm still agitating for a retreat back to the civilized Northeast. Seriously, the heat is overpowering. They tell me I'll be acclimated soon. Piffle.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Karmakaze]

83. Another VERY annoying aspect of this...

Name for me please the New York Times and international best-selling book, translated into twelve languages, that thanks you and your site above anything else. First and foremost.

There is one. Only one. Mine. Before my own mother, I thanked you.

That is REALLY fucking annoying because he is using the fact he thanked DU as proof of his support for DU. When in fact He wouldnt have HAD a best-selling book if it wasnt for DU.

Note that book came out (his first) in 2002, and Pitt has been a member since 2001. DU helped him WRITE the damn book. People here offered help with research and all sorts of other incidental help, including plain old encouragement. Now he is acting like his thanks - which was the LEAST he could do - means DU owes HIM?

It may not look like it, but I have been around DU since before that book came out - before Pitt was a "star" of the left, and I can tell you DU MADE Will Pitt, NOT the other way round.

[hippiechick]

18. ... and to think I got slammed 18 months ago ...

... when I commented that T.O. and certain staffer(s) bear more than a passing ethical resemblance to certain media-manipulating employees at 1600 ...


All I can say right now is ....

[OldLeftieLawyer]

20. You did?

Well, then, since you're here to remind folks about it, and you turned out to be dead right on, you WIN!

Here's to you, hippiechick:

[fishnfla]

28. Hippiechick has a long history with certain players

justified in her views, from what I understand. I was wondering when she would chime in

[hippiechick]

37. O.L.L. ...

You avatar just plain looks like it hurts, man !

:hi: Thanks for the :toast: !!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

47. It's a picture of Fuckface when

he's decidering.

Back atcha, hc..................

[fishnfla]

44. Hey I owe you one too

Whilst I have your attention: you were right and I was wrong. From thread one on this topic, when I implied the leak was coming from the Fitz camp...I dont know what I was thinking....perhaps it was the outside influences .....although if you read the Armitage talking to the GJ, it seems there might be a mole somewhere.

Thats it no more happy hay for me...starting Monday ;):smoke: :smoke:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

52. I have an advantage, so you owe me nothing

We're all entitled to our views. I have the advantage of having been a Washington lawyer for 30 years, so I saw it quite differently from you.

Life goes on, and, for now, the air is clear, and we'll take back America.

We will.

[Karmakaze]

60. There is more class in this one post...

that Will Pitt has shown on DU for a long time. I truly believe his fame went to his head, and he forgot that much of that fame came from the help he received from DU.

I remember when he used to post his articles here and have them editted for FREE by people who cared for the truth. Then when DU had helped him to tighten them up and make them better, then he would post them over at TO.

DU helped make Will Pitt and TO, and what do we, and most importantly the admins get? They get called cretins.

Thanks for showing so much class OldLeftieLawyer, although I never doubted you would :)

[fishnfla]

23. .

You was right!

:rofl:

:hi:

[hippiechick]

33. Yo Fish~

You and MargaritaMama and the Party Patrol need to toss back a few for me at 'Roo this year ... :toast:

I won't be able to get there -- am closing on a house on 6/15!! Guess that means someone thinks I'm a grownup now.



:rofl: :hi: :rofl: :hi: :rofl:

[Berry Cool]

26. I think some people owe an apology to the MSM

for beating on them so hard for remaining silent...

What about the sources that were going to be outed? When is that going to happen?

[Marie26]

32. Oh, never

Since Leopold likely made the whole thing up.

[DancingBear]

30. Not by me

I tried to kiss you, but my monitor kept fogging up.

[hippiechick]

35. SMOOOOOOOCH

:rofl:

[Stevendsmith]

21. So they got a few business hours ahead of the news cycle....

what's the big whoop?

:shrug:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

29. Uh........

they didn't.

Their idea of a news cycle is, I think, something like this:

[garybeck]

38. here's why this story was not plausible from the beginning

does anyone really think that "white house staffers" would tell Jason Leopold the time of day, let alone something like this? the folks in the whitehouse are all bush cronies. they aren't going to leak something like this, and if they did, they certainly wouldn't call up JL. the scenario of "multiple sources" flocking to JL to tell him something this sensitive is just not plausible.

but this only happened because WE all WANTED to believe it so badly.

[Cameron27]

48. I didn't believe it, many didn't believe it

and yet it happened anyway. No one's to blame for this except the reporter, the editor and admistrator of ThrowTruthOut. It should just be regarded as a lesson learned. Zero credibility, and now apparently, no class at all.

[KoKo]

62. Folks on DU have different "levels" of awareness. And, while some of

us had much skepticism of the initial reports breathlessly reported...we were willing to wait it out to it's conclusion.

I don't fault anyone here who had close ties to Truth Out or Will Pitt for trusting that this story was flawless. Because many folks here on DU are New and don't have the backgrounds for what happened with Leopold and Salon and elsewhere.

I think many DU'ers don't like to tar someone with some "tainted brush" for past deeds preferring instead to have an "open mind."

I wasn't about to trash Leopold on this...although I was a Salon Reader when his "incident" happened there...and while I've not always gotten along with Will Pitt, I've always thought that when he got his "act together" he wrote great stuff for those of us on the Left. Others apparently saw some good there with both of them, too.

BUT!!!! There comes a times when FAITH is so trashed that it needs to hear from those we've invested it in. And, when times are tough and we are threatened like we are right now that "Reporting and TRUTH" become CRUCIAL..

Especially in the NEW INTERNET MEDIA!

The response from Truth Out was very week. And, it comes after their "Editor" trashed his own calling them "Fuckwits and Cretins." It took alot of support for these people not to have deserted a person who called their intelligence into question on a Board that had supported the fame and glory of this Poster. And, what about this posters TRASHING of the owner of this site? Most of us here on DU would be "pushing up daisies" long ago for trashing this site and the owner.

Why should some of us be given more "Credibility than Others?"

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/5/15/33446/1501

I don't know. :shrug:

[EminenceFront]

39. Are the 24 hours up yet?

My watch stopped. :P

Up until a week ago I'd never even heard of Jason Leopold, Will Pitt, or Truthout. As it appears now, they could all spell their names the same way: M-U-D.

[RDU Socialist]

42. hahahaha

dead on, dead fucking on.

[RDU Socialist]

40. you know flags should have gone up once the article was published

it never quotes anyone directly, and is entirely like "sources say..." which is a lot like Fox News' bullshit of "some people say that Democrats eat stray cats. Mr. Dean do you wish to respond to charges of feline devouring?"

Then again, I don't use Truthout for news of any kind.

[KoKo]

75. Flags went UP .....but it was a matter of "trusting one's own." and

that many did is to be applauded.

[SPKrazy]

43. Okay, It's Been Much More Than "24 Business Hours"

Is this all a hoax?

a Rovian ploy?

Or is it for real?

I haven't seen anything from Will Pitt who said the other day that if we knew what he knew we wouldn't doubt

Well we don't know what he does.

Why doesn't Leopold out his sources like he said he would????????????

[SPKrazy]

45. Leopold OUT YOUR SOURCES!!!!!!

It's been long enough

OUT YOUR IRONCLAD SOURCES

they lied to you

OUT YOUR SOURCES
OUT YOUR SOURCES
OUT YOUR SOURCES

can I hear everyone now

OUT YOUR SOURCES!

[Moloch]

46. Here, here!

He did promise that, didn't he?

and if he doesn't it just confirms he made the whole thing up.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

53. What sources?

Why believe that part, when everything else he wrote was unadulterated bullshit?

I doubt there were any sources.

[Moloch]

56. Wasn't Joseph Wilson himself supposedly one of the sources?

Or, at least "confirmed" that the indictments were given to Rove's Lawyer on 5/12?

I think you're right, but I would like to see what Leopold has to say about all this. I'll bet you a dollar is is infinately funnier than the message from Ash.

[Marie26]

59. Did Wilson himself ever confirm that? nt

[Moloch]

65. deleted..

..

[Marie26]

70. Aw, why?

Wilson is such a high-level source, & Leopold is such a low-level news source, that it really doesn't make sense that Joe Wilson would confirm this to Leopold (only). It makes more sense that Leopold would choose Wilson as a falsified source precisely because Wilson's such a well-known name in this case. Really, why should Wilson have any inside info at all on this? He wasn't in the grand jury room. The whole thing just feels like a 100% pure fabrication to me.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

67. You'd win,

because, from what I've seen so far, these people seem to be inordinately gifted at stepping on their own dicks.

Why believe any of this? Can you honestly imagine Joe Wilson talking to someone like Leopold?

I didn't find out, by the way, about Leopold's past until just a few days ago. I just went after that story from the beginning because it was such palpable bullshit. When I found out about his history, well, that made it richer, didn't it?

[Moloch]

71. I really was interested in finding out.....

I was even going to call up Wilson myself (his number is listed) and ask him but I decided against it.

[Marie26]

78. That'd be a pretty good scoop! nt

[Disturbed]

82. I waited and waited some more.

Now I am a bit sad about this fiasco. Yeah, I damn sure wanted it to be true.

[brentspeak]

72. If it's Rovian conspiracy theory people want

Just imagine Leopold crawling out of his hole to announce that his source was...Joseph Wilson. And Joe Wilson will say "Who is this weirdo? I didn't say anything of the sort." But Leopold, paid by some Repug operative, will stick to his story, thus discrediting Joseph Wilson.

No, I don't believe that. But it would make a good story.

[DisgustedTX]

80. What fame?

Another BS response from the "magic man" about his wonderous books (currently among the 180K and 700K "bestsellers" on Amazon) on the NYT bestseller lists and translated into 13 languages?

Yes, BS can be translated into far more than 13 languages.

Perhaps many will no longer click heels and shout "SIEG HEIL WILL PITT!" and DU will be a much better place.

Perhaps he will re-emerge ripping off another.web.style.as.originally.attributable.to.Sons.of.Sam.Horn.net. Yes, the word.word.word styling ORIGINALLY occurred on Sonsofsamhorn.net during the Red Sox 2004 World Series run - were they EVER mentioned? No.
(at that time, sonsofsamhorn.com)

What you have are gigantic egos taking a "stab" at what they HOPED would be a great story - it appears to be COMPLETELY FALSE at this time.

This "fame" is nothing more than a riverboat gamble with the knowledge that a certain portion of the base would thoughtlessly and reverentially follow. Bush garners the same reaction.

[pinto]

88. Thread 19 is here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1240252