It would probably be a good thing for the health and welfare of this community for everyone to stop beating the shit out of each other over this Rove story. This goes for me, too. I just got into a snipe-fest in another thread, and immediately felt stupid about it.
Those who have stood with truthout are owed a massive river of thanks. Your faith will be rewarded.
Those who have expressed doubts, and await further confirmation, are totally above reproach. If I didn't know what I know, if I was a DUer out of the fact loop truthout has been in, I'd be doing and saying exactly the same things.
Those who have made this personal - with me, with each other - should stop.
truthout was right on Saturday, Sunday, Monday, yesterday and today. We will still be right tomorrow and Friday, no matter what the goddam unbelievable lapdog mainstream media has to say (or more to the point, doesn't have to say) about it.
I understand your frustrations at the way this has played out; in fact, I call your frustration and raise it a billionfold. There are good reasons for this, and those reasons will be made clear when everything comes out. Those good reasons haven't made the process easier.
That's it for now. If I sound like a hypocrite for saying this, so be it. I'll take that beating standing up.
202. Interesting how Garland looks a lot like Natalie Portman in this pic?
The same Portman who was in two big films last year that has had themes against this administration! Just one more reason for us to identify with this pic!
This whole story is so frustrating to me too. I have to believe that William Pitt and Jason Leopold have been trying to do their job as responsible journalists, and either those on the other side giving them info have had their circumstances change drastically, or there is a massive plot to "out" folks like them trying to give us this important news.
If it is the latter, perhaps it is yet another warning shot from Karl Rove that they can even control sources to the point that journalists trying to do legitimate stories have to be paranoid about being outed in the same way, and that responsible journalism will be a rare commodity for us all except for those journalists that put their courage of doing the right thing in front of their fears of losing their careers. That to me is what sucks about this more than anything else.
I can wait another week for Rove to get indicted. I DON'T want to see journalists feel more reason to cower to this administration and other powermongers in influential places, without the ability to do their job effectively. Which is one more reason I stand by these guys until we hear the whole story of what is going on!
28. I'm going to reiterate what I wrote on that other thread
"it's Karl Rove's town, the rest of us just live here." Quoting Dana Milbank. I believe in Will and Jason. BUT I also believe Karl Rove has almost limitless power and can cause endless delays, obstructions and obstacles. What's happening behind the scenes is something we will never know, and while I have faith in Fitz, I also believe Rove's power is going to change the whole face of things before it gets to the public. IF nothing comes of all this, it doesn't mean truthout was wrong, it only means there are powers stronger than truth, Fitz and the law.
Edited on Wed May-17-06 04:18 PM by OPERATIONMINDCRIME
And agree with you as well.
It's amazing how some take an innocent and accurate statement portraying that 'SOME' have acted in a brutal and attacking manner, and twisted it into a statement claiming that anyone who questioned anything at all is being called a freeper, disruptor, attacking blah blah blazay blah.
I know you were referring to the handful that have gotten rises out of trashing this story, as opposed to asking innocent inquisitive questions. I have no problem with the latter either, and in fact think the latter is always valuable and necessary. But the former group? I have no respect for them at all.
I just wrote you a nice, informed, and articulate response to you question about the "indictment," the mythical one. I did it without thinking, because it was an easy answer, and because that's what I do.
Then I saw your last line, and I deleted my response.
I have a new response for you.
Welcome to IgnoreLand, too. You're not worthy of any kind of answer.
I normally look forward to Lefty's posts because she has a wealth of knowledge, experience and wisdom to share. I just think some of her posts on this topic have been a little mean sounding. Just my opinion. :shrug:
126. Wait a minute. I held OLL up to that standard and was mocked
I asked for proof of her comments. I wanted a link. She provided nothing. Only hot air. Pretty ironic if you ask me. She stated that Fitzgerald's whereabouts are public and what Leopold reported was false. I asked for a link to prove her point, she said go look it up. It's pretty basic on DU of all places to post links to info when refuting or posting facts. I was not the only one asking for a link and her refusal to do so was so enlightening.
(this is a snippet from a post I placed in another thread. Hopefully this will explain MY reasons for not being as forthcoming as many people would like. I'm only speaking for myself here.)
..but you may want to try and find out exactly where Fitzgerald was on Friday.
It will answer a lot of your questions, I think.
P.S. Before people go accusing me of being unhelpful, I'd kind of like to second what Leftie said sometime today. In order for you to form your own opinions, and to convince yourself, it really is most helpful to do the leg work on your own. Lately, there has been a lot of folks saying "I think this" or "I think that", and I think this issue is so polarizing that myself (or anyone) saying "x" is just going to get someone else saying "y" with just as much conviction.
I have tried to find info and was not capable. I was also mocked for that as well. So were others as I recall. I was told I was frustrated and pissed at myself for not being capable of finding such a public fact. Well, my question to you then DancingBear, if it is so public, then, where is it? No one to my knowledge has started a thread with links to it. I have tried Google, I have tried Fitzgerald's website. Nothing that I can see. I don't have access to Nexis. Why so much refuting without the facts and links to back it up? For those of us, (who are too stupid in OLL's mind) to be able to find that info, why all the mocking? Why not post straight out where the info is? :shrug: Ed Schultz had Jason Leopold on. Ed has access to more than I do sitting at home. Why didn't he find out? Where's the MSM? Why aren't they refuting it if it's so easy and everyone should be able to find it? Just curious. I was out of the mix until last night when I foolishly decided to ask for links. You guys expect the facts, why don't you provide them as well? :shrug:
You just have to look. I'm not being cryptic, I truly believe that the ONLY way to put your mind at ease and decide what YOU think is really happening here is to try and find the information on your own, and with no biased help by either me or any other members of the peanut gallery.
It doesn't help if I say "look here" - someone else will say "well, he may have been here, but that doesn't mean that this couldn't have happened here."
That WILL happen - I can tell by the tenor of posts here and the "vigor" of the discussion.
No one is refuting any facts. All I'm (and others) are asking is that people do some grunt work and come to your own conclusions. Don't make assumptions.
I am anything but a researching genius, and by slagging through various sources I was able to come to my own conclusions, and I'm pretty comfortable with them. Now, you may think that I have access to things that you don't, but I can almost guarantee you that is not the case. I'm betting your skills are better than mine.
I'm sorry if you don't like my answer, but I have faith that if you keep at it you'll get to where you need to go. It's a frustrating time for all of us, as we SO want this bastard in leg-irons, but fact-checking is still the name of the game.
Good luck. :)
P.S. I'm not a real big fan of Ed Schultz - I don't think he does any type of research. Now, if you got Randi's teeth into it... :)
It's smoke and mirrors. If you found information that you believe to be correct, then why not share it? If you believe it as you say you do, then you should be able to defend it with your research process. Fear of creating a "divisive atmosphere" is a bit moot, isn't it? Seems like NOT sharing what you found is creating an even more divisive atmosphere, but succeeds in leaving the spotlight on someone else instead of "those that are in the know" about a detail that could clear up more by being told than it can by leaving it hanging in the wind. Unless it's just a way to keep the controversy going for personal amusement?
This is a site that is based on the sharing of information and debate of that information. this is the first time in the 2 years (almost) that I have been here to see a poster say ... "go find it for yourself so you'll believe it". What's up with that? :shrug: You can either create a time line that can be substantiated or you can't, it's that simple, isn't it?
I'm not trying to be flippant, I just really don't understand the reluctance to share the info with those that are interested, if you really do have it figured out. :shrug:
You are calling him a liar. You don't believe him when he says he has the sources and the facts and he will be vindicated. If your opinion is that Will Pitt is a liar then he has every reason to be upset. When has he ever lied to us? What do you base that opinion on?
and, above that, he is fashioning himself as a "journalist" without having done any of the legwork that real journalists do.
Where is his verification of his sources? No real journalist just reports what some "sources" tell them. That's absurd. There is a J-school concept, taught very early on and adhered to religiously because it's vital, called "triangulation." None of that was done here, and that speaks to the very badly amateurish qualiity of this so-called "story."
I have no opinion of Will Pitt, who didn't write the story. Nor do I have any knowledge of his history here at DU. He is irrelevant to my thinking and opinion of the Leopold story, which is the only issue I have addressed.
Any lawyer who read that "15 hour session at defense counsel's office" or the "24 business hours to get 'affairs in order'" and various other ridiculous claims would laugh out loud as my colleagues and I did, because that's not even good fiction. It doesn't work like that. Plain and simple, it doesn't work like that.
So, feel free to disagree with me. I take no personal stake in this, but you clearly do. For me, it's a message board with an entertaining issue. That's it.
Frankly because as I've told you before I like your tone and almost 100 percent of the time agree with your posts, but you have been awfully quick with that ignore button and I would rather not join the OldLeftieLawyer graveyard of the ignored.
I simply don't know enough to comment on this so I've just been following. I'd love to see him indicted but then I'd love to win the Powerball Sat. night. :)
91. Did you not just read what Will asked, which was for us to stop
beating each other up over this mess? Not that I feel you are addressing me personally, but your words only add fuel to the fire that Will Pitt, myself, and many others have asked to be extinguished. I wouldn't be arrogant, conceited or stupid enough to tell you what should or shouldn't be said, but please think about what you have written and how it might sound, before you hit the post message button.
Couldn't answer reasonable questions and so took his toys and went home, just before the tantrum, and now makes it sound like questioning is verboten and those who do really want Rove to run free over the lands.
152. That's strange ~ I followed a link to FR last year when freepers were
involved in the Andy Stevens affair. Although I didn't know Will Pitt other than reading his articles at the time, I noticed that freepers appeared to know him pretty well. Their nickname for him, was the one you just used. I hadn't thought about it since then. Just another one of those coincidences, I guess ~
181. The book "Men who hate women and the women who hate them"
is a humorous dictionary. It defines apology thusly
"to end (or more commonly escalate) an argument by ostensibly taking the blame. Experts in the area (i.e. people who have spent alot of time in male-female interactions) are able to make an apology in such a way as to cause the recipient of the apology to look like the guilty party and/or feel angrier than he or she did prior to receiving the apology. It is important to remember that the purpose of an apology is not to accept blame, but rather to make a sarcastic or disparaging comment and yet later be able to say "I apologized - what more do you want?"
At this point I should probably note that I am not in any way suggesting that Mr. Pitt apologized in that manner. I am not even sure I saw an apology, but a call for a cease fire, patience and conviviality. I am merely posting this because I think it is hilarious and it is an alternate definition of apologize that perhaps more closely fits the way it is often actually done.
That same book defines contradict as:
"to assist one's date or spouse in relating a story or telling a joke"
162. I will answer your question with a question, jigarota.
Have you access to politicians for interviews at just about anytime you want? Do you have a press pass? Have you been invited by John Kerry to sit in on campaign strategy meetings?
In other words, do you have the inside access, the contacts, the "megaphone" of a Truthout that Will Pitt has? Have you written a critically acclaimed, best selling book, which by default makes you an expert in the field you have written on, such as WMD's?
If your answer is no, then I would have to say that Skinner probably would not extend any courtesies to you for making an ass out of yourself, like Will Pitt did.
Are you equal to him as a person? Definitely. Would you deserve leeway, if you did what Pitt did? In a word, no. What's so hard to understand about that?
This may be called Democratic Underground, but there is nothing democratic about it. Skinner and a handful of others always reserve the right to choose who loses their priviledges. Obviously, Skinner feels that Will Pitt's contributions earn him a second chance. Maybe a third chance. Who knows?
16. This has been a rough ride for a lot of people.
What I don`t understand, is why can`t we just wait and see what happens and withhold judgement? Why rip one another up before we even know what the final outcome is? If Leopold`s reporting is accurate, I`m certainly not shocked that the MSM is sitting on this. All of a sudden we`re supposed to gauge truth vs. falsehood according to what the MSM reports or doesn`t report? That`s laughable!
Thanks for your hard work and also Jason's. He's caught the brunt of the abuse, it seems, with so many trying to discredit him. I could not bring myself to believe that you would ever tell us anything other than the truth. I await the day of your vindication and will greet it with great joy. Thanks again.
Some people are not happy unless they are attacking others.
I too can understand wanting to wait confirmation but all these personal attacks are beyond me except for one thing that keeps going thru my mind from my days when I used to go head to head on message boards with Republicans. Whenever they got backed into a corner and knew they were wrong......they would attack the messenger........and I think that's what they are doing to you.
Keep the faith and let the rain roll off your back.
Most have no clue who rover is and especially have no idea that he is supposed to be the ""brain"" behind dubby. I personally think if his and dubby's brains were gas they could not power an ant's motorcycle. :rofl:
42. A true character of a person shows when things do not go as planned
I think you are very a good essayist, however I don't always agree with you and ordinarily don't reply to your posts. In this case it is time to put my two cents in as well.
I would love to have to heard that Karl Rove was indicted. To be quite frank I am sceptical now, however that doesn't imply that you have lied, because that is to tell somebody which is you know is not true. If you try to tell somebody something which you think is the truth and it turns out to be false is, is one of the hardest things and maybe you are in that spot or maybe you are not and only time will tell.
We have seen plenty of flame wars on this board over this subject and I've seen that you got frustrated, but I noticed that you kept trying despite the horrible critism. Personally you have earned a lot more respect. Even if you have failed, you haven't abandoned your collegue nor did you abandoned this board and you tried to explain as much as possible.
As far as this board goes, it's time to stop beating the shit out of each other and hopefully it will quiet down a bit. This may be my first long response, however I think it wise to let it be the last one on this subject as well ... until Rove gets indicted of course ;)
You know I have hope. Love activist journalists, and I was sorry to see all that stuff around here.
My feeling is even is Rove isn't indicted, he certainly should be. So If someone has done their homework ("I" certainly haven't) and is prepared to stick their neck out, I support that. It's dangerous political waters we swim in, especially for those who want to dig out the truth. I can only imagine what it must be like. So here's one of those hug thingies.(In real life, I'm not much of a hugger, so I use the hug smilie judiciously) I know it's been a tough few days.
Just think how boring it would be without all the melodrama while waiting to see what happened with Rove. Without it posters might start doing self-destructive things like picking out their eyebrows hair by hair or start really worrying about discolored toenails.
If the story's wrong, big forking deal. A news story has never been wrong before? If it's right then you can prance around here telling all those who said you were fulla shit to stuff it and skinner prolly will let you use a temporary nick like "Karnak the Magnificent."
Edited on Wed May-17-06 05:54 PM by radio4progressives
Sounds a bit too personal if you ask me.
If you haven't developed a "good relationship" as a reader w/TO at this point after several years of existence as a source of interesting articles and analysis as well as great news source on the anti-war movement, either you never will or you are new to the scene.
I rely on TruthOut for news/info on the anti-war movement. Anything more offered than that is gravy. On the occasions where there is more than what i go there for, well it's either interesting, intriguing or information to be mentally filed for further review at a later time.
I read and listen and view news in print and broadcast media from so many different sources, and rely on no one source for everything.
Even my most favorite sources i have critisms of. Like Amy Goodman for instance - I'm an avid listener, she often has great guests that i want to listen to thier pov about events, but i think she's a terrible interviewer. I have other issues with Amy too - and there are times when i know the information that is being disseminated on the show i can recognize as not exactly 100% trustworthy - in those instances i might gripe or grumble about the specifics among like minded truth seekers, and maybe even shoot off an email to her with my complaint. But I don't openly attack her or her credibility becaise something she reported hasn't been verified or reported on in the fucking Corporate media!
If i saw the same addy's on DU bashing Truthout on this story bashing the Corporate Media with equal venom, time energy and bandwith - then i'd defer my critisims of the "critics" in this instance.
83. It doesn't matter to me, but it would be nice if NEWS was FACTUAL
Edited on Wed May-17-06 05:58 PM by high density
If I wanted BS I'd listen to Hannity and read the Washington Times. I guess I expect a higher "truth" standard than you do in the news reports I read.
It's like BREAKING NEWS: Britney Spears is dead. On second thought, I mean she'll pass away in 24 hours. Whooops, I mean she'll be dead within 24 business hours... Ohhh, hmm, well, it will happen someday, I'm sure of it!
87. That's response is a bit Naive and speaks of certain lacking
Edited on Wed May-17-06 06:06 PM by radio4progressives
of knowledge especially how Government, spooks and operatives work.
Show me a single source that is 100% "accurate" 100% percent of the time, and I'll show a Brave New World and 1984 wrapped up together in a nice neat little package.
For instance, do you think Seymour Hersch is a liar? Do you think he is dishonest in his reporting? Do you think he makes stuff up just for attention or other purpose?
If so, we have nothing further to talk about.
But if you tend to trust Hersch's reporting, he too could be trashed (and has been trashed by the reich wing media) just as easily for the same crime of desiminating events to pass as reported by trusted sources which once reported - fell into the black hole of obfuscations and shannigans by government ops and functionaries.
It happens ALL THE TIME, but it isn't the fault of the reporter!
It's the world we live in with an evil and corrupt Totalitarian government.
95. Comparing Hersh and Leopold doesn't work for me
Edited on Wed May-17-06 06:42 PM by high density
I gave Leopold the benefit of the doubt for a few days. I'd love to eat crow next week, but right now I'm very doubtful. I can't compare items from Hersh that go down a "black hole" with Leopold's reporting that simply doesn't mesh with reality. If Rove was indicted on Friday it would be very obvious by now.
I am not taking sides on whether Leopold's story is right or not, but I really do think that Skinner deserves an apology. He never attacked and was just a skeptic, but WilliamPitt viciously attacked him back. That apology should have come 24 business hours ago, just after the offending message was deleted.
TO was either right...or they were wrong. As Will has updated to us, they have further corobaration (sp?) from three MSM sources. Pissing and moaning and cutting each other off at the knees isn't going to change the status quo of the situation one iota. It just makes us look like a bunch of boobs.
I was cautiously optimistic when Will broke the big news, but my gut couldn't just go with it 100%. When Monday and Tuesday rolled around (and now Wednesday) and there wasn't any movement on the issue, I was disappointed...I felt let down...but I didn't go into a tirade or high dudgeon. I suspect the people who went apeshit toward Will were people who latched on 100% to the story and put all their faith in the Gospel of Pitt (that's not meant to be snarky to you Will..it's just that in some ways you remind me of an apostle of the progressive movement, and I often refer to your missives in my own mind as the Gospel of Pitt).
Yes, Will has a certain responsibility as a journalist, probably the most important responsibility journalism requires: to seek the truth and report it. Although I may not always agree with Will, and I think sometimes his ego gets in the way (but not in the way of the facts, not that I have seen anyway), I don't think Will is stupid. That being said, was it premature for him to report it? Perhaps. But, I don't suspect for one minute that he scooped the story to satisfy his ego.
I think the people who got personal and derogatory about it are of the ilk that are ready to believe anything that fits within their personal agenda whether there is substance behind it or not. They tend not to think critically enough about the information they are processing (if, indeed, they are processing it at all), and if said "facts" end up being something less, then the wheels come off the wagon.
I must also say, Will, that about the only thing I've been disappointed with you about throughout this whole situation is your diatribe (the one published on Daily Kos). I think of you as a professional jounrnalist, and yours was not behavior becoming of a professional. I must add, however, that I've never had a bunch of pissed off DUers coming at me with pitchforks, either, so it's very possible I would have reacted in a very similar manner...if not worse!
So...I'm still watching and waiting. I'm still not betting the farm on anything, but I'd trust things coming out of Will's mouth EVERY TIME over anything coming over that corpulent bastard Rove's legal team.
And, if after all is said and done, if Will and TO ends up being wrong......then he's wrong. It doesn't mean he's the freakin' anti-Christ. I suspect if that's the case, he'll eat some crow, dust himself off and get back to work trying to expose the underbelly of corruption AKA the Bush Administration.
What one of us hasn't been wrong? About something really big?
Give the man a break, the benefit of the doubt until this thing plays out, and lets quit looking like a bunch of psychotics gone off their fucking thorazine.
Even with a low post number myself, I have been a member since 10,000 and lurker before that... So I have read your posts for years now. You are a patriot. Thank you for your work.
I appreciate you, Jason Leopold, and all the others who speak truth to power. We are dealing with the most skilled propagandists in history imo, so much of the truth is always obscured by bush-mud until it is thoroughly washed and dried by the sun. That takes time.
Maybe du'rs should remember who we are dealing with when things get all squirrelly. tib
61. Whenever we're tempted to sink into a miasma of
Edited on Wed May-17-06 04:58 PM by pnwmom
hopelessness, maybe we all need to remember . . . there are a LOT of pots in the fire right now, not just this one.And any one of them could finally boil over. It is so hard to wait, but it could happen any time now. And in the meantime, instead of just waiting, we can keep ourselves involved doing little things, like making phone calls to our reps, emailing them, etc.
Maybe spy-gate will bring this administration down. Maybe Duke Cunningham or Jack Abramoff or Tom Delay. Maybe voting machine revelations. Maybe Iraq. Maybe the Tice revelations, whatever they are. I have never seen an administration with this level of corruption. Have you?
Whatever happens with this one situation, we shouldn't give up. It's just a matter of time and effort before these people are brought down. * is may think he's all-powerful, that he's got a direct line to God. But we don't buy that. Do we.
I had been kind of disillusioned with DU, which is why I decided not to donate recently. This whole Rove Indicted!!!!!!! thing just seemed like more of the same to me. If this one pans out, if those reasons indeed become clear, then my faith will be restored.
66. Reading between the lines "good reasons"..B*shit is involved! This
must be. I was lamenting to my Dad yesterday, as he had read the TruthOut article and hated KKKRove for years before I even knew of his existence, and he mentioned his belief that in their excitement to get the story out, they had been "Rathered", an opinion expressed by many here at DU. When the threads appeared concerning Leopold's past history of lack of credibility, I was further convinced that Leopold was targeted precisely because of his inflammatory past, and he was writing for T.O., one of the most respected progressive news sources on the web. I certainly entertained the idea that you all had been duped. I pray that is not the case. I care about you and T.O.. If Leopold's reputation is harmed by this, it doesn't concern me much.
Reading between the lines though, I would surmise, that if B*bot himself is involved, this would make the matter of reporting Rove's indictment not as simple as would meet the eye. It would make it easier to understand (even though not condone) M$M's hesitation in reporting the facts. Is this the "Good Reason"?
right about this one too. you, me, we all have a common opponent in this and it is not one of you guys, I don't count, I'm just here to learn, but 'I can count.' you keep writing I'll keep reading and if I was to have a problem with something I would PM you, simple. I think it is called respect. peace
and i will toast you on that...i have stayed out as well...shitttttttttt we have alot more problems than this just with this white house..we know what these fuckers have done over and over again..hell they took down Dan Rather..who wouldn't believe what these fuckers are capable of...
we will know when we know..in the meantime there are very important things to deal with ..like being spied and and calling every one of the senators on the committe who will try put the master spy in the owners box of the CIA...
so i toast all who stayed out of it all and kept working to take this country back!!:toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast:
some things we have no control over..but i will work every day to change even those things!!
Why do some people here think you *owe* them anything? I have read some posts from people who say you should have answered questions when asked, you owe certain people an apology, you kept some things secret and so on. How do these people think that anyone owes them anything concerning this story?
The same with Truthout, I didn't think they were a pay site. Why do they owe anyone here anything at all? Some people are coming across as if they were duped, taken advantage of, lied to and a few other things they want to blame other people for.
I wish someone would explain to me how they feel they are OWED anything from people who post here.
93. all I said is that Will owes Skinner an apology
for some of the things he posted to him earlier this week. I was shocked by how rude he felt he could be to the administrators of this site (not to mention the "cretins" who post here, but I wouldn't expect Will to apologize for that.)
I have met Will - even hung out at his apartment. I like the guy a lot, and think that a lot of what he does is very worthwhile and necessary. But his arrogance, ego, and anger get in the way of his message way too often.
96. I just think he was a bit buzzed and defensive
If I had a nickle for every time some said things on here that was "over the line" I'd be typing this from my yacht off the coast of the Bahamas.
I never met Will and I don't think I have even talked to him no more than three times in my time here, but I think some of this is just way out of hand. And not to sound like a prick, but I have a feeling that Skinner knows about what was said and can deal with it without our help.
This place has been pretty strange the last few days concerning the whole Rove situation and I just don't understand how some people think they are owed something from any other poster here.
I'm a long time lurker, new poster, and it it pains me to see all of this in-fighting. It's like watching your parents rip each other to pieces!!
The thing is this: we all want this soo badly, we've been waiting YEARS. It was dangled in front of us on Friday, and then it didn't happen as expected. Everyone reacted differently, some more appropriate than others, which is to be expected in any community. Now we are obsessed by the 'whether or not' and there will be no resolution until the story moves forward, in any direction.
But really, until then, what a distraction!! Lord knows there is no shortage of issues to discuss and action to take. PLease, let's not play into Karl's fat, sweaty hands by losing our collective goals over this!! If he visited here now, there is no doubt he would delight in all of this uproar over HIS fate. Do you want to make that pig smile???
Will's posts are extremely valuable and important to this site, no matter what ends up happening in this particular case. I think DU needs to take a collective deep breath and realize that the outcome of this story is NOT NOT NOT a deal breaker either way.
Every ounce of energy that we have needs to be invested in 11/06 and beyond. If not, we're going to have a LOT more to worry about than Karl's prison record.
178. Ha! If he had any second thoughts about it, they didn't extend beyond
Edited on Thu May-18-06 03:04 AM by Jazz2006
this site or beyond his own selfish/egomaniacal reasons for "deleting" it here.
The post you're referring to was copied and repeated elsewhere and he not only had no qualms about that, he actively participated in the subsequent discussion that followed on the other site without ever expressing any regret at having posted it here, without ever mentioning that his post was out of line, and without ever asking the other site to redact it or to delete the ugly things he said about Skinner or the ugly inferences he made about this site. In other words, while he may have regretted posting it here for fear of being tombstoned, he certainly didn't regret it being posted and disseminated elsewhere.
Sorry, but it seems to me that any "second thoughts" he may have had about the pathetic and nasty post to which you're referring (and he posted a whole bunch of pathetic and nasty posts that night, by the way, not just that one) extended only to whatever second thoughts he might have had about preserving his own ass on this site (where he seems to have a misguided little base of hero worshippers).
But he had no qualms about his crap being repeated on another site and even joined the discussion about it without ever exhibiting any remorse for all the shit things he said here.
What a hero.
Obviously, Skinner is a much bigger man than Pitt is.
It was interesting reading, but it was tame next to the flip-outs I have at times.
Why does Pitt have to apologize any more than anyone else here? Especially since he realized the stupidity of that post and deleted it (of course there's no such thing if you're a popular person on a forum/blog).
I kinda agree with the DU'er I'm responding to. The time frame is up, and a simple apology and "perhaps things have changed and I'll be proven right in a week or so", but after reading all the mean spirited comments, which I do NOT get into, I'm SHOCKED that the person that 1st posted this story doesn't get punished on DU a little more for calling people names in the subject title of a post, and other comments.
I have watched SEVERAL DU'ers (sure with less credentials and efforts, but rules are rules and if anyone knows them, he does) get kicked off for doing some of these same things. And for real? He got on Skinner? I think that's horrible. Questioning the story a little bit, because, frankly, DU's integrity is mildly involved in this, is something the DU staff would do after the deadline passed.
LOOK, he very well could be getting indicted and deal is in the mix, we DON'T know... or, this could be a horribly unbelievable screw up... I doubt it, but you never know.
So, I just suggest not calling a large mass of us names because we're questioning this story that has made us initially so JOYFUL, and now is just having us teetering in doubt about it, understandably.
No ones gonna read this post, but it's my one post ot say, how about the people who've made a dozen posts on this matter take the rest of the week off on it!
are the future of this nation and this planet-- and making sure these bastards are voted out of power & as such stop destroying our constitution.
Beyond that, it would be nice if the Rove story is true; I'm certain he deserves indictment for at least the things which have been mentioned. I don't have any way to know whether it is or not, so you can mark me down in the "awaiting further confirmation" camp, I suppose.
But whatever happens, Will, I respect your and TO's work, and I'm proud that we're fighting for the same things. That won't change. Peace.
168. It's making me sick....but then I remind myself that is what they are
trying to do...they are purposely trying to disrupt and insert their bad energy into the DU...
Most strange is how it is the same people over and over and that these particular whiners and snipers are Duers I've seen over the course of the year be really thoughtful and nice. Not anymore....
Anyway, any of us who know Will and have been fans of Truthout for a long time know the truth and all this cruelty and sniping on the DU about him doesn't change a thing for me. But yes, it is making me sick watching it go on....
176. this is a snapshot, on a smaller scale, of what is wrong with liberals
It's probably because we all hang on to our individuality no matter what, whereas Republicans are more than happy to let others do the thinking while they march in lockstep, but...
As soon as things are looking up for the left, there's infighting and sniping and all kinds of nastiness. It's as though we're most comfortable being the underdog, and we pull together beautifully when we're down, but as soon as things are good (Bush's approval at 29%, for example) we start fighting amongst ourselves.
Let's all take a break and watch American Idol. Hopefully one day we will all wake up to learn that Rove is in pinstripes awaiting trail. Ahhh, one can always hope.
This story has been hard on people because we want so desperately for Rove to be tried for his many acts of treason. His day will come, because what goes around comes around. Patience is all the strength man needs.
139. Very grown up of you Will - you were the right person to post this.
Edited on Wed May-17-06 09:05 PM by Mr_Spock
Thanks for stepping back and acknowledging the bigger picture here.
I'm not a gushy rah rah person or a basher either. I try to keep my doubts to myself and always hope for the best as we need good news & we need the good people who have kept after this story (and many others) for the rest of us.
Keep up the good work and don't sweat the impatient and those too easily embittered.
"There are good reasons for this, and those reasons will be made clear when everything comes out. Those good reasons haven't made the process easier."
Will the good reasons that have not made things easier be worth the wait in their conclusion or will it leave us depressed? (If the answer's depressed I plan on staying away from DU and all other news sources and pout for a VERY long time! ;( )
I hope the story is correct. I hope it for Will, Jason and for all of America.
However, the more I read about this situation, the more I feel as if it's a possibility that Jason might have been "Ratherized."
It wouldn't be beyond Rove. I mean, the man has planted stories, tried to make people look foolish, etc. Rove is the epicenter of this story, and wouldn't he just love to manipulate and discredit "the liberal blogs."
With Rove...this is a possibility....a strong possibility, isn't it?
I also read the post about MSM reporters who are confirming that Jason is right--but that they cannot move forward because their bosses are forbidding it. Again...I'm smelling a rat. I understand that these MSM members may be completely telling the truth. I hope so! However, because Rove is involved (and he's pulled shit before), I smell something fishy. Editors and media owners want to make money. They want to be the first to scoop. What would be the purpose of sitting on this news, if it's going to be public information in a short time anyway?
If Rove really is in the cross hairs--what would how would the MSM be helping him/making a difference, if they held the story for a few days?
It seems inconsequential to me.
Then again, I might be missing something--or a lot.
Again, I'm hoping for a truthout home run--and loads of personal and professional kudos for everyone involved--as well as a humiliated Rove. However I'm also very concerned because of the unbelievable bastard political personalities (Rove and Company) involved.
170. On a personal response: Real DUers stick by their fellow DUers
Will - You and I have met personally and I know you and I am a big fan of Truthout as is my good friend Linda and others out here in the Bay Area. We regularly come to Truthout for information and we share it with friends and family. Whether the Jason Leopold story pans out or not, is irrelevant and here's why: You are an honest and sincere person who as a journalist checks his sources and if you tell me that you checked the sources - I believe you. It's possible it was a planted false story. Who knows. Either way, I am still a big fan and I will say that watching what has been transpiring here on the DU in recent days is shocking. The only good news is that its been really easy to pick out people who want to make this personal and its revolting. You'd think that they would rather see your head on a platter than Rove's. In any event, know you have real friends and fans and ignore the efforts by those to cause problems. They are trying to destroy Truthout's and your credibility. They just don't get it - it won't be changed because of their efforts. I see through what they are doing, as I'm sure you do too.
Remember: When they start fearing you, that's when they start fighting you....They are scared.
171. Will, I've never had any reason to doubt your integrity
and I don't doubt it now. This waiting for confirmation has been incredibly frustrating for all of us, and I've lurked on many threads over the past few days where people have been venting their frustrations at you. You've put up with it as well as anyone possibly could, and I look forward to seeing you vindicated. Relax; nobody expects you to be a saint!
we have all become impatient. Jason's story states there is no confirmation of day and time the indictment will be announced. 24 business hours could have meant you have 24 business hours before I sit back down with the grand jury on Weds. and formalize this indictment. Todays meeting with the GJ puts it in that time frame. Also of note, Libby had a one week warning prior to his indictment, he and his legal team were notified on Friday the 21st of October. The indictment came down one week later, the 28th of October.
I support jason, will, and truthout. I plan to wait until Friday before making any assumptions that their reporting was erroneous and would hope based on the wee bit of logic posted above that you all might as well.
179. Don't worry, Will. I support you and don't judge those who don't/can't.
I can understand why people have taken their positions to heart, because we've been through a lot together, and that's all I need to understand to refrain from being motivated to get into in-fights or the forbidden flamewars. It's a simple matter to me. I hope that those for whom it's more complicated (especially those at the heart of the situation) can rise above the fray. Participation in that fray isn't doing much for their blood pressure, I'd imagine.
Will's a stand-up guy and, even through my impatience, I'll hang with Truthout till...well..the truth is out. A week ago I believed this story cause I wanna believe it. Today I believe it cause Will stands behind it.
193. I've watched these threads and found them disconcerting
but typical of any flamewar on DU: People invested heavily in this issue on either side, the typical disruptors that poke their head in every single thread in order to fan the flames, and then those who sit and wait for events to unfold; all of those folks are present in this thread.
200. I suspect that if they are proven wrong, they'll retract the story
Bad scoops happen, even in MSM. And they're retracted when that happens.
My point is, they reported what they thought was factual information - and it still may be. I don't believe they reported it on a whim, or for any nefarious purposes. They thought they were doing us a service by letting us know the scoop they heard.
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