I am sick to death of "Thinking of the Children."

[Thtwudbeme]

I was happily reading a National Geographic in bed last night (May 2006) and somehow got to the "letters to the editor" section...which I normally skip. There it was! Page 6...."I am angry with your decision to show the picture of the woman injured by the land mine lying there with one foot blown off and a huge piece of flesh missing from the other leg."

Reason?

"...is this appropriate for the children that are a large part of your audience?"

Hey, Larry! Get a clue! National Geographic used to have, and might still have a children's version of their magazine. This is NOT a child's magazine, and if you can't figure out what is appropriate for your little kid to look at, that's YOUR problem--not the editors who work for the magazines that you have subscriptions to.

Look, I like kids...always have. But, not when they are in my face in adult situations. I don't want to read NG and think of the children. I don't want to go to a restaurant, movie, grocery store, and have to worry about what other people's kids are doing saying or thinking. If I am in a bar, I don't give a flying rat's ass if your kid hears me tell a dirty joke or not. What the hell are you doing to your kid taking him to a bar anyway?

Not my problem.

You had 'em; you raise them....and other than tax money, presents, or babysitting for friends or family...DO NOT EXPECT ME TO BE INTERESTED IN WHAT THEY ARE HEARING OR READING.

This fetus/baby/child freaked out nation gets on my last nerves.

[HeeBGBz]

1. That's right. The kids want to see boobs, not bodies...

What were they thinking?

[yellowcanine]

33. I used to love National Geographic when I was a lad. For the articles, of

course.:evilgrin:

[HeeBGBz]

195. Um-hum, of course

A rite of passage, I'd say, for youngsters back in the day.

[The Backlash Cometh]

2. I heard this all the time when I was hanging around Libertarians

and Republicans. Different set of circumstances, mind you. NG should be real.

In my case, when I heard, "I'm tired of worrying about the kid's, it meant something else." What they were trying to do is whittle away at the least common denominator in the "public, safety, and welfare" formula which allows government to challenge individual rights. I would say, they have succeeded.

Anyway, we need the NG to keep it real so that we can see what happens when we DON't think of the kids in real time.

[Deja Q]

3. This fetus/baby/child freaked out nation is utterly superficial!

In words, we're all "oh, the children! Oh, the future! Oh, we cherish life!"

In action, our society makes a pack of starving, cannibalistic jackals look civilized.

[FoxNewsSucks]

4. Agreed

I'm tired of EVERYTHING having to be child-related or child-appropriate. It's past time for parents to do their own jobs of looking after their children, instead of expecting everything to be sanitized so they can then be lazy.

[ikojo]

109. I had this same conversation with a friend last week.

He has a son who is Aspie. His son is AT LEAST two to three years behind his age group peers as far as maturity levels go. He's 15 and acts much like a 9 or 10 year old.

Well, the way it started was I was reading an article in the local "alternative" paper about how Panera bread company's wi-fi provider censors out certain websites, particularly those related to sex. My friend thought that was fine because there may be CHIIIIIILLLLLDRENNNNNN in the restaurant and they should not see that sort of thing.

My response: I do not want to live in a world where everything must be made fit for a five year old. I am an adult and if someone has a problem with something on my computer screen, which they can probably not really see from their seat, then they can come over and talk to me as an individual. More than likely I would modify the situation so that their precious progeny would not be exposed to something mommy and daddy find offensive.

We agreed to disagree.

[bdamomma]

130. these children know more than we did

[liberalmike27]

5. Totally agree.

I heard a comedian once who was humoring his crowd along the same lines. He made the point "What about the parents?" "If the parents are messed up, the children are going to suffer."

You get tired of everything surrounding the kids too. Why do we have to watch television with the most ridiculous words dubbed in for the curse words because parents don't want to do their job and censure the television they watch, or just explain that they aren't to use that language in real life. And making laws regarding them too is over played.

[lapislzi]

6. I have a better question

What's wrong with children seeing the horrors of war? Why should they not see and know? Iraq's children see this and worse every day. Why are our children special that they must be inured to the horrors of what we have wrought. Let the children see. Perhaps then we can raise up a generation of peacemakers.

[Thtwudbeme]

7. I doubt that. I was eating my fruit loops watching Vietnam

with my parents discussing it in front of me; my family was personal friends with Sam Ervin---I heard all about Watergate first hand.

All of that didn't seem to do jack shit to brighten up my generation, did it?

What about all those horrible photos of WWII? Didn't help the older folks, did it?

Americans are just ignorant and ridiculous.

[lapislzi]

13. By the same token, it didn't seem to do anybody much harm

and I daresay you turned out OK...:P

[misternormal]

125. I respectfully disagree...

... If those images did not affect anyone, there would not have been an anti-war movement during Viet-Nam, or one now.

Agreed that not everyone was affected, because it seems that the ones that were fundamental in the beginning of those conflicts were likely those that were not listening to their parents discussing things.

My view on war was dramatically shaped by the images on the nightly news during the '60s.

Peace

[wildeyed]

15. Not mine.

Sorry, I didn't vote for this and neither did my kids. And I don't think traumatizing them is a good way to raise peacemakers. Teens, even young teens, are probably old enough and mature enough to understand the content and what it means, but young children will be unreasonably scared and certainly not able to understand the idea of an unjust war of aggression, or even what war means at all.

I do feel deeply for the Iraqi people and what they suffer, especially the children. I will look at the pictures and weep. But I don't see what it accomplishes to scare the crap out of my own kids.

[pepperbear]

19. talk about missing the point. n/t

[wildeyed]

24. Talk about a rude and uninformative post. n/t

[pepperbear]

71. NOPE...It informed you how I felt

about your post...mission accomplished.

[wildeyed]

86. Actually, it didn't.

I know nothing at all about why you feel the way you do. I dunno, possibly I misunderstood or misread the original post. If you took time to explain your viewpoint, I might even agree with you. But instead you opted to post an ambiguous and insulting one liner. What's the point? This is a discussion forum. We disagree, we discuss, then maybe we agree or maybe we don't. What you did was just rude.

Mission accomplished, lol, isn't that what our fearless leader said right after he started the war.

[pepperbear]

129. ok....

1. "I know nothing at all about why you feel the way you do"

I was conveying my feelings, not the reason for my feelings. there is a difference.

2. "I might even agree with you. But instead you opted to post an ambiguous and insulting one liner."

Telling you that you missed the point was insulting? Sorry, I can't help you with that. to me, insulting you would mean calling you names and possibly ridiculing you. For the record, I did neither as I don't even know you. I took issue with your post with using as brief a response as I could muster because I am work.


3. "Mission accomplished, lol, isn't that what our fearless leader said right after he started the war."

Yeah that's right he did.

I disagree with your premise and still say you missed the point of the OP.

I took your premise to mean that you assume the argument is whether it is right to expose kids to images of war and violence. That was not the intent of the post. The point was, the poster is frustrated with people who want a magazine like NG to censor themselves "for the sake of children. I think the general consensus here is IT IS UP TO THE PARENTS, NOT THE STATE. I agree with the OP. The responsibility lies with the parents. That's what a V chip, the net nanny programs, and the off switch on the TV are for.

With all due respect, when I read your post, it sounded like you were against your kids being exposed to such imagery. Well, I can't argue with that, but I hope you realize the choice should lie with you, not the Government, NG or for that matter, DU. Again, the point of the post.

Again, with all due respect, if your kids are reading NG and they happen to come across gory pictures of war, guess who's fault that is? You could either shield their eyes and hope it'll go away, or you could wait a few beats and explain to your kids what it is they're looking at and how you feel about it. THAT CHOICE SHOULD BE YOURS ALONE. No one here wants to expose their kids to something so horrific, but I don't think anyone here wants to let the powers that be (ESPECIALLY the current administration) control what comes into their mailboxes and living rooms.

Can we please make nice now, or is this going to have to go on and on like it was Hannity up in here? I am so not in the mood for a fight today.

on edit: forgot a line

[wildeyed]

182. I was not replying to the OP in this sub thread.

I was replying to another comment that said, basically, because Iraqi children are forced to view violence, our kids should see it too. My reply was, no, not my kids. It is too much for them, they are too young, and they didn't cause it. I was not saying that anyone else is responsible for screening my children's reading material. In fact, if you look down thread, I agree with the OP.

We can make nice now. I gotta go anyway. :hi:

[lapislzi]

100. Well, then, it is your responsibility as a parent

To monitor what your children see. You would, I assume, shield them from sexually explicit material for the same reason.

However, NG is under no obligation to do your parenting for you.

And if my daughter happens on such images--much as the average Iraqi child does every single day--it is my responsibility as a parent to explain what it is and why I think it happened, and how I feel about it, and why her reaction of horror is normal.

[wildeyed]

183. I don't disagree that it is my responsibility as a parent to monitor

my children's reading material. I do disagree that they are somehow obligated to see violence just because other children are seeing it. We need to establish ages, as well. My kids are 3 and 5. They are not developmentally able to process the concept of war. They can barely understand death. Why traumatize them with these kinds of images? When they are older, and can understand, I will be willing to look and talk with them about it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

186. Children are tougher than you think

Right now in Iraq, real children are seeing those sights for real.

One of the most pathetic types of students I encountered in my college teaching career were the ones who had always been sheltered from all adversity, the ones who, when asked what the most stressful period of their life so far was, shrugged and said, "Adjusting to college where I had to do my own laundry?" They tended to be lazy, shallow, and not interested in anything except whatever was shiniest and loudest at the moment.

I don't advocate rubbing children's noses in unpleasant topics, but if they should happen to see something disturbing, they WILL survive and be stronger and more compassionate for it.

[wildeyed]

200. I know.

And it is completely unfair and beyond awful that any child, or adult for that matter, has to live that way and see those things.

My children lead very privileged lives, the type of lives that all mothers want for their kids. Not all have had the good fortune that I have to raise their kids in safety and affluence. So the trick for me is to raise moral, compassionate kids who are grateful for all they have. I have no intention of raising spoiled brats.

I think that exposing kids to the truth is fine, provided they are of an age to understand what they are seeing. But for me to expose my kids to that level of violence is just gratuitous. They are too young to understand, and it is my job to protect them. There will be plenty that is unpleasant later in their lives that I can't save them from.

[seabeyond]

28. this is how i would have talked about the email instead of an attack on

kids and all the other bullshit. my kids have seen it in various forms and is hard on them. it hurts their heart. but they are aware. all kinds of crap in ng and i have it around for kids to look if they want. but i understand there is all kinds of crap. i chose for the kids to have access or not

[treestar]

43. Right, because if they have no realistic concept of it, they will

too easily be all for one when they grow up, without thinking of how serious it is and how much suffering it causes compared to the alleged cause for the war. To decide maybe let's not go to war if it is not truly for self defense but for strategy regarding oil or empire building.

[ixion]

8. you said it...

as an adult, with no children, I'm constantly innundated with "family friendly" stuff.

Look, it's not my job to raise someone else's kids. Why should I have to compromise my life so that they can be lazy?

[Midlodemocrat]

20. Because it takes a village.

Some kids are born to less than adequate parents. Does that mean that they should just be given up on? Couldn't we reach into ourselves and try to help that child? And, I seriously doubt that family friendly stuff is compromising your life.

[Thtwudbeme]

26. Midlo, I bartended to pay my tuition before we moved.

Every damned Friday night, sure as heck...there would be some family dragging their kids into the bar at Happy Hour (the restaurant side was 10 feet away--same menu) and complain to me about what the kids were hearing.

Pardon me, but I am not interested in hearing about family friendly cocktail hours, or kid ready National Geographics.

That family friendly stuff grates on my nerves like you wouldn't believe. And it's every single day....

Look, you have kids...I understand that. But, I don't, and I don't want to think about what your kids are listening to on TV, or at the movie theatre. That's YOUR job, not the villagers.

[Midlodemocrat]

30. You just proved my point.

I do my job with my kids pretty well. But, others don't. I would rather sacrifice than have a child who was at risk in the first place over hearing or seeing something inappropriate. It won't kill me not to use four letter words in front of a child.

[Thtwudbeme]

31. Going to Friday afternoon cocktail hour and bitching about work is

stress relief.

How in the world did I make your point? How bout the point of taking the precious little pumpkins to the restaurant?

Better yet, do what Oregon did: NO body under any circumstance under the age of 21 allowed in a bar, period.

[Midlodemocrat]

32. Because parents that bring kids to a bar are parents that

aren't doing a good job by their kids. Bars, by definition, are adult only places.

The other night, my eldest went to the prom and a bunch of us were at this outdoor restaurant having a beer after they left. It struck me that I wouldn't return there with my kids because my little one is 9 and there were some people who had definitely had too much to drink.

Plus, even outdoors, the smoking was really getting intolerable. I have a terrible sensitivity to cigarette smoke.

That being said, there were TONS of people there with their kids and those kids were listening to inappropriate conversations that some of the drunken patrons were having.

Those kids aren't being parented the way they should be. Their parents were putting their social life and recreation before their kids well being.

[Thtwudbeme]

41. Right. And why should that be MY problem?

Why should I have to moniter MY conversation because these kids got unlucky in the great parent lottery?

Do you not understand how offensive that is to people like me who chose NOT to have children?

[Midlodemocrat]

42. No, frankly, I don't.

I can't understand how modulating your tone and your conversation is offensive.

I have lots of friends who chose not to have children. But, they understand that the children need a good education and decent clothing, etc., etc., in order for us to survive as a society.

I don't understand and I guess I never will the anger that seems to emulate from a lot of folks who chose not to have children directed at those of us who chose to have children.

[Thtwudbeme]

46. I do understand how children need a good education, etc. I ALSO

understand how adults need to be able to get away from them sometimes.

NOTE, I ONLY mentioned adult friendly places in my post. I am not ranting about what I could talk about in a park, or in a museum...in a library.

I am ranting about parents who INSIST on driving other adults crazy.

[bloom]

51. Adult friendly places like "restaurant, movie, grocery store" ??

"I don't want to go to a restaurant, movie, grocery store, and have to worry about what other people's kids are doing saying or thinking."


It sounded like you were talking about the whole world to me.

[Thtwudbeme]

53. Grocery stores: Yeah, I LOVE parents who can't control their kids there

LOVE it, I tell ya. Running up and down the aisles...while people like me are supposed to smile and say, "Gee...how cute."

Movies: If they aren't old enough to get the content, or need to have it explained...leave em with the babysitter.

Restaurants: If they pitch a fit, take them outside, or home. I would not dream of going to a restaurant where it is "kid friendly" (TGIF type places...Shomars...) and bitch. I stay out of those.

What problem do you have with ANY of my posts?

[seabeyond]

57. listen to you. just listen to you. you dont have a clue

not a friggin clue. what kind of childhood did you have. wow. me me me it is all about me. what about the old person that might drool or something and offend you, lock them up too

[Thtwudbeme]

61. Yeah, I went to paramedic school, and worked for years because it was

all about me.

btw--I had a fabulous childhood; the big fat American Dream one complete with perfect grandparents down the road and horseback lessons. I am very close to my parents, in fact, drove them to the Grand Canyon last year from NC----via San Antonio.

My sister is my best friend; I have a great marriage.

Don't seem to fit your ridiculous profile, now do I?

[seabeyond]

75. what profile. i put no profile up

i knew i couldnt know. that is why i left it so why open to all possibilities.

done with the rants.

if you had gotten on talking about parents wanting to keep gruesome death from kids in ng, i would be there with you. like i said in earlier posts, my kids have seen it over the years for many different reasons. one of them, to not take war lightly. and it hurt them. it hurts me. it would be nice for kids to read ng, but some inappropriate articles. there are kids magazine, i know, i got them for my kids. but i have left the adult ones out and trust my kids will go past the stuff they dont want to see. that is what they do. pretty good at refusing stuff they dont want

you want to tell me kids should get the adult porn world cause after all it is an adult world and the kids need oto learn it anyway in inappropriate time and how dare us adults shield kids, we must be fundies.... (this i hear often. we parents are being attacked by you non parents all the time, trust me) then i will argue that. but not to worry, so much sex out there even on cartoon channel and family channel commercials and the schools and everywhere else. our kids know about fucking, not making love or reproducing, but fucking at 5, 6, 7, 8.......is that young enough for you all?

but your op and posts since have had more the tone keep the damn kids away from me. the stores, the restaraunts. and this isnt the first anti child thread. your post felt attack on the kid. and it was said without a lot of thought

stay out of stores. do you know how many adults, and possibly you, may get in my way..... and i stop and i wait. and i tell my kids to stop and wait for the adults. i dont roll eyes, humph.... make noise, move my body in impatience, that someone dare to be in my way.

i teach my kids thru example. as i tell my kids watch out for the adults, it is as much for the adults that have absolutely no time or consideration to watch out for anyone, let alone kids. but this is the reality of living amongst fellow man. you would like to walk thru with chip on shoulder, and an eye on the kid that dare to get in your way. i prefer to stop and smile at the person, and allow them to see, that really, nothing is such a big deal that they have to break a leg to get that can of corn. kindness.

i dont think you were being fair in your op and subsequent post, and possibly because some was tongue in cheek or just plain anonymous fun on the internet or a good ole rant.

but as a parent that is dealing with children being bombarded by ugliness at every turn, and trying to get them thru with some joy, and kindness, and respect so they can gain a shred of confidence, i just say how sad, very sad, that an adult that was raised in such love has nothing to give.

i walked my small, intellectual, well manned, well behaved, compassionate son into school today. 5th grade. a group of three boys say "there's edmund" in such scorn and ugly looks. and i look at my boy and his face being brave, looking off like he didnt hear, and wasnt hurt......

and i thought, good for me to give birth to such an exceptional child, small, for all the bigger boys to use to pick on, so they can feel such the man

i really have issue walking into a thread, listening to adults with the same mentality

but your right, my sons pain, has nothing to do with you and i ask nothing of you, like maybe think..... that child is a human, with feeling and is able to hurt and maybe a kind smile will mean everything to him. i dont want anything from people that cannot give. i mean that truly. i ask nothing from anyone...... just move along, and as you stride by with such force and ownership of the world, i will move my child to the side, out of your way

[bloom]

72. "What problem do you have with ANY of my posts?"

You wrote:

"This fetus/baby/child freaked out nation gets on my last nerves."

Among other things.


If there is problem with our nation - I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that there are children who are born and raised here.

The people who I find offensive are the selfish adults. The people for whom money is the only thing that matters. Money and/or their right to exploit and oppress others. They are far more annoying than the most annoying child.


And I have only kudos and sympathy for the vast majority of parents trying to raise children in our selfish and cynical nation.

[seabeyond]

44. dont. dont even consider any other person but yourself

from this parent to you. dont. dont put a thought, dont be interested, just fuckin do your thing. dont even suggest you are tired of thinking about children. you dont give a shit. be who you are. dont do shit. you, are the man.

and when my children come up alongside a person like you i will explain to them our inherit selfishness as a human, and how it makes the experience of life less, and how maybe they might want to learn that this is not what they want to be. you can be a lesson for my kids. i will use you...... as a tool to being a better human. so ahead of time, let me say thank you to your selfish self.

[Thtwudbeme]

45. And how exactly am I selfish?

Because I chose not to have kids? Because I want to be able to go places and have adult conversations about things that children probably shouldn't be able to hear without having to worry about people who would call ME selfish but don't have a clue as to how to raise the kids that they have because they are biologically able, but not mentally able to finish the job???

Spare the hell out of me.

And keep your kids out of bars; raise them correctly.

[seabeyond]

47. this post fine tuned it to bars. your other posts clearly shows

contempt.
that is your cross to bare. has nothing to do with me. all yours. revel in it.

[Thtwudbeme]

50. Contempt for what, dear?

I LIKE kids; ALL of my posts were fine tuned to what I consider should be off limits to them: bars, magazines with adult content (National Geographic)--

You are reading what you want into my posts...and sound ridiculous.

[seabeyond]

55. more bullshit. oh let me wiggle out of my position

you clearly, in op, want no children around to interfer with you...........hence selfishness. how dare a child to get in my way, the out of control child with no parent to control him. whatever......

like i say, my children will just learn from people like you. dare not to self reflect.... just continue on. cause truly as a parent, i want nothing from you. i will take care of my child and whatever you give to them, in ugliness, i will deal with it with my children and they will be fine. the many jobs we parents do in sheilding our children. not your problem. i have no desire to hand over any responsiblity to you. carry on. nothing to see

[Thtwudbeme]

62. So, because I chose not to have kids, my life is a waste, eh.

Whatever...keep your kids out of the bars please, and control them in public.

[seabeyond]

82. wow.... didnt you pull something out of the air

wow.........f***

that was good. where did that come from. lordy i shake my head

no , i didnt say that. anywhere. i am pretty damn sure.

you are jsut making htings up, and what, you think htat is true agrument. ok, ..... lets play that game.

and if you think all fetus should be aborted????? so there are no children for you to endure.

[XemaSab]

91. So lemme get this straight

You're bagging on parents who don't raise their kids right (as you see it), but you don't have kids yourself?

How do you know what these parents are dealing with? How do you know what they go through?

I can see both sides on the question of National Geographic. I used to read it all the time when I was little, and I don't see why any bright child shouldn't get a great deal of fun and entertainment out of it, but I also see that war is a part of our world and adults should know what land mines do.

[ixion]

69. if any sub-group is selfish and self-centered, it's the so-called family

unit.


Why should anyone else have to worry about your kids?

[seabeyond]

83. i bet you wont help an old lady across the street either

or if you are male and a female is being fuckin raped in front of your face, you would just walk away right

i am not asking for you to do anything you are not willing or capable of doing. there are plenty of people on this planet that will step in kindness and compassion helping fellow man. you just go along doing your thing. i personally am asking nothing of you. actually, that is exactly what i said in the post you are responding too. how much more clear can i make it for you, that i dont want anything from you

[ixion]

95. shows what you know about me

of course I would help someone in need, and have done so many, many, many times in the past. But by 'in need', I mean someone who REALLY needs some help. I'm not talking about things that matter. I'm talking about making exceptions simply because parents don't want to have to explain the real world to their children; rather, they'd have them think the world is a sort of Disneyland®, only to find out later on that they were lied to.

My mom never tried to hide the real world from myself or my sister, and I love her for that. She would explain the incident to us, and allow a discussion about it. This way, you see, when exposed to it outside the protection of my parental units, I already knew what it was.

That's just good parenting, IMO.

The world is NOT a theme park. It is impossible to remove the 'not-so-pretty' parts. Creating a facade as such is simply lying to your children.

Just my two cents. :hi:

[seabeyond]

105. reason. isnt it grand. i couldnt agree with you more

my 8 year old, not to mention my 11 year old are beyond most adults. that isnt what i am posting about on tis thread. i am posting at the contempt to children. as i told the original poster, a reasoned post such as you did, discussing the issue of hiding htis from children, would not have elicited many of my posts.

we agree on the premise of the post. i am bothered by the contempt of parents and children in many of the posts.

thank you for sharing your position. as i say, i couldnt agree more

[Occulus]

96. I'm able, and capable, of protecting kids.

I won't do it until I can have one in all 50 states. What I and people like me are saying is, "welcome to our world."

If you don't like it, tough. I will not do anything for parents because I'm "expected" to do it. YOU made a lifestyle choice, you deal with the consequences.

Again, welcome to MY world. This is a calculated position: until I can have a family, free of persecution, I will not give a fig for yours.

[seabeyond]

107. i dont ask anything of you. i want nothing of you. and i will still

fight with you for your cause, damn straight. and even with that, i wont put a single condition on you. but be assured, i need nothing from you. and i want nothing from you.

you can stand in your position to why you have the attitude of "If you don't like it, tough."

that doesnt work for me, in solving issues, getting along with people, progressing. do it your way. i will do it mine.

[LeftyMom]

136. That's selfish in the extreme

It's certainly not any child's fault that you face discrimination. They don't choose to be brought up in a world where some families are considered better than others. For that matter, being an asshole to people with families isn't going to encourage anybody to stand up for your right to breed. It's going to reinforce bad stereotypes and set you up to be used as an example of why somebody's preconcieved notions wre right. Way to shoot yourself in the foot. :eyes:

[Occulus]

142. Not really.

I don't see it as selfish at all.

What I DO see as selfish in the extreme- as well as a hard fucking slap in the face- is your expectation of respect from me simply due to the fact that you have a family.

You don't deserve that consideration from me, and you don't deserve it precisely because I can't- AM NOT ALLOWED- to have a family, and YOU are. Quite frankly, it's parents like you- who seem to think everyone has to accommodate you- that are very much part of MY problem.

Parents who think their kids shouldn't be "exposed to gay people" are one of the single largest sources of discrimination against people like me. NO parent deserves consideration from me just because they opened their legs years ago.

Like I said: you won't see me changing the channel, stopping the rap CD, stop playing the violent video game, or any of a whole host of other things that would respect the fact that there's a family present, specifically because I am not allowed to have a family in the first place.

If you don't like that, welcome to my world.

[LeftyMom]

161. First of all, I'd never ask for any of those things

except in a situation where there was no option to remove my child from the room. I don't think that my decision to have a child means that others have to provide a child-centered enviornment for him at all times, and honestly I don't think that hearing the f word or seeing some pixelated monsters get destroyed every now and then does him any real harm- he's old enough to know that some things are for adults, like beer and naughty language. And whoever these parents are who don't think thier kids should be "exposed to gay people" well, they have issues and I feel really bad for thier kids. Can't say I've ever met anybody with thier head that far up thier ass, but then again I live in California and we really don't have a lot of fundies here outside Orange and Placer counties.

But no kid is to blame for whatever discrimination you face. I applaud you for standing up and demanding the dignity and respect you deserve as a human being, but children deserve the same respect from you that you rightfully demand from others. If you don't see that, than perhaps it's best that you don't have children, not because of your orientation but because of your inability or unwillingness to put a child's best interest above your own desires and needs, which is an integral part of being a parent.

[Misunderestimator]

158. Oh? What stereotype is that?

That gay people hate kids or behave badly around them? I haven't heard that one before.

[seabeyond]

162. i hadnt heard of it before either

had never thought about, had never exerienced it. that is why this poster has me say huh

i know this isnt on my post, but no one took that to the place that gays arent good with kids. i never considered that or ever had the example of that. i have been around lots and lots of gay. i have my kids willed to my gay brother in law. why texas law pissed me off so. to sign a discrimination bill in a church and then.... what.... taking foster kids out of gay homes???? are they going to take my kids away from who we give them to, becasue he is gay???

pisses me off. please, do not take this to some place it is not meant to go. please

[LeftyMom]

171. The one about selfishness and hedonism

It seems to be implied in a lot of media depictions of gay people (and for that matter, media depictions of childless hetero people.) It pisses me off because selfishness is endemic in this country and sadly very much reflected in the way people raise children but when comparing media depictions (especially in comedies where personalities are exadurated for laughs) parents and especially mothers are selfless and often lack any life outside thier jobs (if they have one) and thier families and childless adults of any orientation (though the depictions of gay men are often really nasty) are generally depicted as being selfish, immature and self-absorbed.

I sometimes wonder if that depiction is what causes the fundie/republican talking point about the selfishness of gay people and childless heteros, if the media depiction is a result of that fundie-driven stereotype, or if both spring from some cultural thing I'm just not seeing.

[Thtwudbeme]

128. This is about the fourth person you have whined "I don't want anything

from you" to.

Why the heck are you bothering with this thread, if you "don't want anything?"

So far, you have called me "selfish." Told me that my childhood must have sucked; jumped on non-heteros who can't adopt kids legally, and told another person that you bet they wouldn't help a little old lady across the street ALL because we want you to be responsible for your own child.

what the hell, dude.

[seabeyond]

135. hey.... this is the adult world

why the fuck should i care how you take something. what you getting all sensitive on me and i am suppose to think about you. i you cant handle it tough. this is my space, write here this little box i am typing in. what do i care.

you know why. i haev posted enough, you know why

[Thtwudbeme]

139. Hey, the day I go "sensitive" on DU is the day hell freezes.

Sorry...5 years on this site, and I have yet to be "sensitive."

I'll leave that up to you, and overactive hormones.

[seabeyond]

144. overactive hormones.

wow..... i suppose you would just like these overactive hormones to stay out of your world too......

[Thtwudbeme]

146. No, but I have managed to control them so far.

You never had to be a slave to your ovaries. Some of us figured that out earlier than others.

[seabeyond]

156. now i truly do not know wtf you are talking about

if people are bring a whole lot of issues into this that i have no idea about and i step on toes..... sorry. but not a mind reader. i care about you, the neighbor, the homeless ont he street equally to my child. love isnt measured. i dont know your story or the other person story,..... simply the internet. you dont know my story. i walked into the school and watched a child be attacked for no reason.... and be hurt, and that hurts my heart, only to come ot a thread of a lot of a lot of dismissing of our child.

[Greyhound]

196. "at risk" for what? Dog forbid that they learn how shitty life can be.

The more the sheeple seek to "protect" their off-spring, the harder the inevitable wake-up call is.

BTW if parents want to drag their kids into a bar, that's their business, not yours, or mine.

[Midlodemocrat]

199. At risk is a sociological term for children who are

being under parented. One step from neglect.

[Name removed]

207. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Occulus]

60. Bullshit. Just bullshit.

If *I* had a kid (ever, in any way), there would be people trying to take it away. In some places, I'm not allowed to adopt even a foster child.

And YOU expect ME to give up- well, anything at all, even the least littlest piece of lint- for YOUR kids?

I doubt it. Your kids, YOUR problem. Period.

(Yes, I'm VERY DEEPLY hostile to parents who EXPECT me to respect the fact that they have kids, ESPECIALLY when states are passing laws saying I can't even get married to someone I love. Having children was your lifestyle choice. Dont you dare expect me to sacrifice anything at all- even my smallest nail paring- for you or your kids just because you have them. It's a huge slap in the face to me and I just am NOT tolerating it anymore.)

[ixion]

70. exactly

:applause:

[Misunderestimator]

80. That's not at ALL what she is saying.

She is saying to consider the children that are exposed to others because of their parents... not that we should excuse the parents themselves.

Her point is that some unfortunate children are born to less than responsible parents and that we should not blame THEM, but blame the parents. If I am in a bar and parents bring small children in, I would definitely try to temper my conversation... I would also question why the parents brought them in, but I wouldn't blithely yell profanities in front of them, just because it's my right and they don't belong there.

I happen to have a child in my life now, and yet, I cannot adopt him, and I cannot marry his mother, because, like you, I am gay. I resent THAT. But that has nothing to do with this conversation.

[seabeyond]

87. sounding to me like anti kid in htose post

and sounding to me they are making clear...........fuck kids. i dont see any squirm room here. lordy...... the world we create

but also to the anger that homosexuals are attack, though you may not have any compassion for children, i dont care. i wil still feel compassion for your cause and fight for you and be outraged with you

[Occulus]

90. It's not the children at all

it's the parents who expect accommodation from ME. It's parents who think *I* should have to respect the fact that they have kids, and alter my life and my adult activities because of that.

Fuck it. I'm done. You had kids, YOU support them, YOU protect them, YOU keep things away from them if you feel you must. Don't expect me, in any way, shape, or form, to do any of that for you. It won't happen. I won't stop using foul language among my friends if there's a kid in the same room. Sorry. I won't turn the channel away from a violent film or sexual show because there's a kid in the room. Sorry. YOU'RE the parent. If YOU don't like it, remove YOUR KID, but don't expect me to change one iota until I can have a child, free of the worry of "legislative seperation", in all 50 states.

Until then, YOUR kids are YOUR responsibility, not mine. Period.

[Misunderestimator]

97. Just want to say that I understand your anger.

Completely. Especially in response to that post.

[Occulus]

99. Thanks

It's frustrating as hell- wait. No. It's not "frustrating". It's demeaning, degrading, and just flat WRONG to suggest that "all people need to protect children and families" when "all people" aren't allowed to have the same.

As an excluded party, nobody should "expect" anything at all from me.

[Misunderestimator]

102. You do make a very good point.

Not to be repetitive, but I completely get your anger. :hug:

[seabeyond]

108. what does that say, that you are being done wrong

it validates doing wrong.

how does that make sense.

[Misunderestimator]

111. No, It means that he has a right to be angry.

[seabeyond]

98. again let me say clearly, i wnat nothing form you

dont. i dont need shit from you. you causs and act like a fool kids will pick up on it, discuss it with me, and we will do it having you in hte higher. still a grand and wonderful person. my kids are that good. i want nothing from you. your world. my kids are well aware of people like. they get ugliness everywhere they turn, and as a family unit we try to minimize it with our love. bully for you..... you can be ugly. something ot be proud about

[Occulus]

104. Let me say it again:

When I am allowed to HAVE a family in all 50 states, without fear that that family will be torn apart on a whim from "our" government, THEN I will respect the fact that YOU have a family.

Not before, and you better not expect me to act any different just because you and your family are present. It's a fucking slap in the face to me, and I am NOT going to be silent about it anymore.

[seabeyond]

112. i want nothing, you are not capable of giving

how can i make that more clear to you

and i will continue to fight your battle with you

but you have already made it clear that you will not respect me, or mine,

you want it you demand it and because i dont have the power to give it to you in 50 states you refuse to give it, to me..... to a child.... to someone who has done you no wrong.

you have said it clearly. you dont need to say it again. i totally hear you

[Occulus]

116. This is not about the kids themselves

This is about parents who feel that, because they have kids, they deserve something from me respecting that.

Sorry- not when I can't have a family of my own.

This little subthread is about people expecting respect that they have a family from people who aren't allowed to have the same. Period.

[Misunderestimator]

93. Well, that might be generalizing a bit much.

I understand gay people being angry about special privileges for people who can be married legally, and who can adopt children. I resent it myself.

I didn't see the poster I was responding to saying "fuck kids" and I don't think it's constructive to generalize the way you did about homosexuals. I was simply defending what midlo had posted, as she was saying that kids shouldn't be blamed for their parents' stupid decisions. And there are a WHOLE Lot of stupid parents out there making stupid decisions for their kids.

I do appreciate that you fight with us, though. Thanks for that.

[seabeyond]

101. it is called taking care of one another

there isnt exception.

it just truly makes me sad that there is so much anger directed at children, yet.... from a group of people that have so much anger directed at them.....

[Misunderestimator]

103. You cannot generalize like that. It is not anger directed at children...

It is anger directed at people who expect that second class citizens such as us should extend special consideration to people who have more than we have already. There was no anger towards "children" there... only anger about the presumption that gay people should bend over backwards for them when they cannot even legally adopt children. And furthermore, you responded to ME, a gay person, defending a post saying that children should be considered, then you generalize about gay people being angry.

Wow.

[seabeyond]

115. really i dont want anything from you

not kidding. i dont want anything from you. i dont.

this makes me so sad. and yes, i already feel sad for what you experience. i dont like ugliness period. i fight the religious, i fight the state, i have stickers all over my car, i get in fights with family and frends and stranger adn the religious. i am not the enemy

it is an attack on kids. i heard it on this board over and over. keep them out of my space. dont expect me to consider age appropriate.

you are talking to a parent that has never asked anyone to consider my kids, because i am there to explain to them every step of the way

i am also the aprent that will see the children that are not being taken care of. and a touch, a smile, kindness will give them so much, it is me giving them so little

it is love

i cannot dismiss any soul. and posters are doing just that. as much as you would liek to soften it

[Misunderestimator]

119. What? You almost make me want to defend the OP here.

In many ways I do... I do NOT think we should be expected to temper our behavior because of parents stupid enough to bring their children to bars. But I do anyway. I still don't think I should be EXPECTED to.

I ESPECIALLY do not think that we should censor things from children when children's parents are the ones that should censor them. We should offer the information to parents, such as ratings, etc., but we shouldn't do away with all things that would offend children simply because not all parents are responsible enough to raise them.

It's great that you are a responsible parent. That's not what this is about. It's about irresponsible ones. And the insanely ridiculous part of you posting that to me, is that I was the one agreeing with Midlo that it takes a village to raise a child and that we should all be considerate of children that have no choice in the parents they have. Yet, you turned this all into how sad you are that homosexuals are so angry at children. :wtf:

You really are having an opposite effect with your posts, than I think you intend. I am softening nothing, only understanding the anger. And the anger is towards the irresponsible parents. Not the children.

[seabeyond]

126. grocery stores, theaters parks

there was much more until fine tuned to bars, on the children issue and annoyance factor. the gay issue came into this very small part of the thread. and this is were i was addressing it.

the poster says not about child. about us expecting respect because we have a child. i understand the point. i can understand arriving to that place. but to me that is 3d issue.... man issue.... ultimately, if a soul is in pain, be it a child, a gay (being discriminated against in such an ugly way) an old person.... anyone, it is not about expecting respect, it is about a soul experiencing a pain.

how do i communicate that?

how do i say you believe i expect respect...(when i dont, i dont care, i dont need it, i dont want it) when my bottom line is anyone in pain, or having a tough time. including a parent. and i am not talking for myself, i couldnt have it any finer thoughout life, that is what i have created. that is what i live. that is what my children get. and my husband get. i want all to have this

so i see a child in a store, in a bar i can have empathy for the child in that position, i can have empathy to the parent that doesnt have a clue and i will throw out some love, cause..... it works. it really works, just to share love. it really effects peoples lives.

this thread has developed in all different ways, all different issues. all cannot be addressed. but it began with attack on children, and i assure you, children are under enough attack, they dont need a whole lot more adults attacking them. there is an uncaring. the same uncaring that hurts gays, other religions and the non religious, the person with an ipod, the smoker, the republican, the democrat, the educated, the illiterate, the poor, the black, the women, fat people, ugly people, old people...........

what this thread was doing to children does to all, everywhere we turn. an epidemic of ugly. why should i care. why should i be concerned. keep them out of my way. away form me.

[Thtwudbeme]

131. I DON'T respect you because you have kids. Got it? Hell, my dog

could've done that before the vet got ahold of her for 24 hours.

Reproducing ain't that big of a deal; ants have managed it for millions of years.

It's parenting that I am concerned about---that and your reading comprehension at this point.

[seabeyond]

138. you changed it on me this time

before i interpreted it i had the expectation of respect from you simply because i have kids

now are you saying, you flat out do not respect me because i have kids?

"I DON'T respect you because you have kids."

you dont know me. nothing about me. what kind of person i am. what i have done or accomplished. but, ... because i have kids you do not respect me?

[Thtwudbeme]

143. No, it appears you are the only true omniscient person on this thread

You are right, I don't know jack about you. Frankly though, at this point, that's plenty enough.

[seabeyond]

141. so am i reading this right

"I DON'T respect you because you have kids."

and you understand this. because really, i dont. you are saying that a person that doesnt like someone simply because they have kids, is understandable. is that what is being said? i really hate being stupid here. so maybe if you talk slow and loud to me i will undertand, i say with a little humor

[Occulus]

148. You STILL don't get it

"I DON'T respect you because you have kids."

No, I just don't respect the fact that you have them, and I won't alter my behavior in your family's presence. You just don't deserve that consideration from me. Not when I'm not allowed to have a family of my own.

If you don't like that, just leave, because I won't leave and I won't stop.

[seabeyond]

159. "I DON'T respect you because you have kids."

those were your words not mine. i did not type that. and i told you i got it, for the fifth time, before you changed the word. i got it. you dont respect me because i spread my legs..... you wont change behavior because there is a child.

got it now. got it then, got it tomorrow

unless you change the words on me again, and i get confused.

[Misunderestimator]

154. You are reading it wrong. Not that I wrote it... but I understand it to..

mean... that someone shouldn't have to respect you simply because you have kids. No one is saying they don't like you because you have kids, they are saying they shouldn't be EXPECTED to like you or respect you simply because you have kids.

Slow enough? :)

[seabeyond]

167. Slow enough?

bah hahahah. and thanks for the liteness. but i do get that. i had never even thought i was owed respect for having a kid. that is not how one is entitled to respect. respect comes in character, integrity, honesty, grace, kindness, goodness, so much more. but having kids doesnt earn squat. i said that over and over and over. not those words, lol lol, but i dont expect respect for having kids.

[progmom]

120. not sure if you read her posts

she is a parent too. she is just unable to adopt the child she is helping to raise because she is gay.

[Occulus]

114. You just refuse to get it, don't you?

This isn't about the children at all- it's about being expected to respect the fact that people have them, and make accommodations and exceptions and actually alter my behavior in their presence.

I won't do it, I simply won't. I will not temper my language in the presence of families. I will not stop reading (for example) a book that has, say, violent pictures in it, or stop playing a violent video game, just because there's a family there.

I personally don't think you should get a child tax credit or ANY marriage benefits when I can't have a child or a family. What I'm trying to say is, from me, you don't deserve support.

It's not that you don't want anything from me- you don't deserve anything from me, or those like me, and I will not give the fact that you have kids and a family any consideration at all. I'm done with that.

In my state, I'm not even allowed to get married- point of fact, there's only one or two states that DO allow. I don't know the exact number, because your "family friendly" legislators have decided that the Establishment Clause of the US Constitution doesn't apply to gay marriages: a Vermont gay marriage isn't recognized in Michigan, and there's some doubt as to whether a gay couple's adoption of a child in one state that allows it will be recognized in another state that doesn't allow it, were they to move there.

How's that for "consideration"? I can't move my family from state X to state Y because, if I do, there's question as to whether I will still even HAVE a family. Just the fact that someone might try to rip apart such a family is a barrier YOU don't even have to think about.

I could go on and on.

[seabeyond]

117. i get it n/t

[Occulus]

118. Actually, you don't

You're seeing an attack on an expectation of respect for the fact that someone has kids and a family as an attack on the kids themselves.

You DON'T get it. At all.

[seabeyond]

134. look. to not respect what you are denied makes sense.

to then state you will behave however and not consider a child, because why, after all, should i respect because it is expected, if i am denied,.... now may hurt a child. right?

not that i buy into a child hearing cussing is going to hurt them. i dont ask adults to stop. if i dont like it i take my kids. if a parent doesnt recognize that the child should not be around, well..... they will deal with the repercussion in child behavior. and child will have their cross to bear when they grow up. my kids like experiencing adults in all kinds of flavor. it is oftent hte adult that dismiises the child. and i have taught child from youngest of age, some adults just arent into kids, dont take it personally.

this isnt how this thread developed. it was keep kids out of my space. i didnt have them. they are not mine. i dont want them around. i wont consider them. i will do as i please, this is my world. tis your job.

again, if an adults want that attitude, fine. i will pull my child to the side out of adults world so they can move along unimcumbered

anything beyond that,.... i was not addressing on this thread.

[Midlodemocrat]

164. Thank you, MisU. You totally got my point.

:thumbsup:

[Midlodemocrat]

163. You completely misinterpreted what I wrote.

I am speaking about children in the global sense. The very same ones who when you are elderly will be driving your ambulance, changing your diapers, dispensing your meds.

The fact that you are unwilling to temper your conversation around children who have done you no harm but be children is frightening.

And, FWIW, I can understand your anger at not being able to marry or adopt, but alienating people like me doesn't help.

[ixion]

67. IMO, it does, and that's what matters

because it's about my perspective.

:hi:

[Phillycat]

147. I agree with you 100%

Yes, the problem is the parents. Why, then, should the children suffer, if it doesn't take anything away from us to simply try to protect them when they're in our presence? Isn't that just being a good member of the human race?

[Midlodemocrat]

165. That's exactly what I was saying.

It doesn't cost me anything to temper my conversation for one evening if children are around. No skin off my nose at all.

[progmom]

174. you totally get it, midlo

:thumbsup:

[Midlodemocrat]

190. I'm having trouble understanding why others don't.

:shrug:

I don't expect people to go out of their way for the lil' Midlos, any more than you expect it for progspawn. I, however, DO go out of my way. I think it is common courtesy.

And, even though some folks on this thread are angry and alienated about children because of their inability to parent at this moment, I have this to say. I respected and was considerate BEFORE I had kids.

It. Takes. A. Village. We are all responsible for the health and wellbeing of the next generation. To think otherwise is ludicrous.

Okay, rant off.

[progmom]

192. it's part of being a civilization

And I think you're right. But I guess I do understand some of what makes people resent parents in general. There are a few obnoxious parents in every group - people who assume that the childless should be expected to pick up the slack, people who refuse to even attempt to control their children in public situations. But I do resent all parents being lumped into that.

[Midlodemocrat]

193. Yup. But there are obnoxious people in every group as well.

I would prefer that we stick to the more general 'people' than parents. I feel as though I have to defend myself and my kids and my position on kids whenever the parent wars flare up.

We are all in this world together. Some of us are simply choosing a different road to follow.

[LibertyLover]

9. As a parent

I agree with you. I monitor what my kidlet watches on her own (usually Sesame Street and Dora the Explorer because she is only 3) and when she watches adult tv with her father and I, we explain carefully what's going on. If I think something is too graphic, she doesn't watch it. It's my job as a parent to make sure what she sees and reads is age-appropriate. And as an adult, I don't want anyone else "dumbing down" or "prettying up" what I, as an adult, watch or read, because they are too lazy to monitor their own children.

[wildeyed]

10. I agree.

I was watching a talk show, and it was about very young children obsessed with their looks. One mom was bemoaning the fact that her three year old was obsessed with fashion magazines. Um, why are you letting a three year old read fashion magazines? Not appropriate for that age group.

The one place I disagree is children's TV programming. I let my kids watch some, but not much, and I try to preview what they see. Noggin, a channel for kids, was touting itself as being as educational as preschool for little kids, which is crazy if you know anything about it, but not all parents are educated enough to see the fallacy of that claim. They will think, great! My kid can watch as much as they want, and its good for them, too! Plus the ads are all for crappy food and useless toys. It would be nice if the government would make better guidelines.

[Kolesar]

11. How ghastly were the pics? How young of children are we talking about?

That might drive whether the NG decides to put the picture in. I used to love NG as a preteenager, especially the maps and the "world of potatoes" cover story.

[NJ_Lib]

12. George Carlin did a hysterical bit about this...

... And this was years ago... He was really spot-on, as usual...

He was mocking our society that's full of: "But what about the children?", and "Please folks, think of the children"...

And then he was like: "FUCK THE CHILDREN"... I gotta go find it now...

[snooper2]

181. I remember that..

It was greatness...

Parents who name their kids Kyle, Zack, Todd, Buff....

Let natural selection work, take those fucking helmets off and let them ride down the street...

[Rabrrrrrr]

14. It's because he's a war and Shrubbie supporter, and he knows he's wrong

so he wants all visible signs of his wrongness - like innocent women and children blown up - taken away.

He doesn't give a flying asswinding fuck about children, except dousing them with propaganda.

I totally agree with you about the "What about the children?!?!?!?! THE CHILDREN?!?!?!?!" bullshit, and I don't care if it's freepers, fundies, or liberals tossing it around. It's a fucking bankrupt argument.

[Vidar]

16. Over-protected children can't deal effectively with life's ugly

realities as adults. This does them a tremendous disservice.

[sinkingfeeling]

17. They pray everyday: Dear Lord, Protect us from the reality of the world.

[porphyrian]

18. Control freaks always claim to be doing it for "the children."

It's always bullshit, though. If they really cared about the children, no children would be homeless. If they cared about the children, there would be cures for all childhood diseases. If they cared about the children, no child would be hungry. If they cared about the children, all kids would have adequate health care. If they cared about the children, they wouldn't be starting unnecessary wars for profit. If they cared about the children, they wouldn't be doing so much to fuck up the world for those children to clean up.

I'm sick of it, too.

[seabeyond]

21. it is all an illusion, really, people dont give a shit about the children

oh..... look at this thread. perfect example. they are being molested, kidnapped, murdered, they are being given drugs legal and otherwise, they are fed crap, twinkies porn war, they are being lost. they are losing rights by the handful. they are raising themselves.

you dont fuckin have to be concerned about kids, just think about you cause god knows you are all important and fuck everyone else. someone talks on a cell phone near you, how dare they, a kid bust out in laughter and interfer with your quiet, how dare they, a smoker is seen a mile a way, how dare they. that anyone should interfer in your little world at all...........how dare they

we are not concerned about the kids. so you get what you want

spend the money with all the zest we have, not on building the future but in waste now, for them to pay back later. contaminate their earth for them to live in, fuck them...........

we arent worried about the kids. we are to busy thinking about me me me me.........it is all about me

on edit: "I am sick to death of "Thinking of the Children.""

jsut a guess, but saying you are sick to death of thinking about children. i bet there are many days that go by that you do not think about children. at a guess i would say you are sick of people asking you to think about children, cause by your op, doesnt sound to me like you spend any time at all thinking about children

second edit: i am not even addressing the person writing to magazine about death. i dotn have an issue with what ng puts in. it isnt the subject of yours i disagree with. it is your bullshit comments about the thinking about kids i oppose

[rpannier]

22. You must hate the Rev. Lovejoy's wife

Her catchphrase from the Simpsons, "Won't someone think of the children??!!!"

[acmavm]

23. All this 'spare the children' is a 20th century concept, not

unlike retirement and a lot of stuff. It is nice that we can afford, or at least attempt to afford, that children be sheltered and protected from the realities of life. Unless you are very very poor, then you learn FAST.

If these people want to shelter their children, then they need to expend the effort to do that themselves.

I'm not saying that we all don't have SOME responsibilities toward the young but I think we've gone overboard on sheltering them from the realities of life.

And anyway, maybe if the kids started asking their parents why they support a government that blows the shit out of little kids, they might honestly give the subject some thought

[seabeyond]

25. what reality that you think htere is even a possibility of shielding

our children today from shit. they are unindated at the youngest of age into the adult world and we tell them fuck you.... we want it. and you shouldnt be shielded anyway. tis the real world, you need to see it. kids know more shit today at such a very young age that we didnt have a clue about when we were kids. this is bullshit.

want to address about a person writing in ng telling people what to have , ok, but htis attitude that there is even a possibility for parents to shield kids from shit today, is bogus

[acmavm]

64. Bullshit. I KNOW people with kids who don't have the faintest

clue. And one of these days, when reality come along and slaps them in the face, they are going to be so out of it they won't have the first clue how to react.

Kids see all kinds of shit. They always have. What's missing now is the 'explanation' or 'disclaimer' that needs to come with the knowledge. That every action has a reaction and that sometimes that reaction can be very very unpleasant. And that we're all responsible for our actions.

[seabeyond]

89. tell me something i dont know or dont do with my children

the point of my post is there is no sheilding kids today, and in other posts, i dont know baout this post..... oh another thread... i said the difference is the parent that stops and listens and discuss, instead of shooing away. i know what it is to be a parent,.... and what our kids are enduring today..... to suggest there is even a hint of sheilding our children is naive. and parents are working their ass off in a very hostile environment, just check out this thread

[gollygee]

27. If it had been in a children's magazine, I'd understand the objection

but people who make claims like that aren't always thinking about children.

[dogday]

29. This thread is hurting the children

:sarcasm:

[Kindigger]

38. I agree, and

it's also giving me flashbacks of flying monkeys. :cry:

[bloom]

34. I am sick to death of people NOT "Thinking of the Children."

Yeah - let's all be morons and do whatever the fuck we please without considering the consequences for anyone.

That sounds like a good idea. :sarcasm:



Though the NG writer might have gone over the edge. But this attitude in general - that we shouldn't have to consider anyone else - esp. the children - really gets on my nerves. Esp. when the next thread will be all about blaming the parents for something.

[seabeyond]

40. i am right there F*in with you...... assuredly this nation does NOT

think about the kids. may do a lot of lip service, but it sint the reality. not by a long shot. i jsut wlaked into my sons 5th grade class, adn saw the ugliest..... that our kids have to endure. then come to a thread with an adult say wah wah... i dont wnat to think about kids. well, you are not, i assure you. you are off the hook, jsut think about yourself. the all important

[SidDithers]

63. Protect the kids, think about the kids...

except when it comes to smoking, then it's fuck the kids, I gotta get my fix.

Glad to see you're consistent. Did you take the pledge to protect the kids?

http://www.epa.gov/smokefree/pledge/index.html

Sid

[seabeyond]

92. sick

you are just another example with a different agenda. i havent discussed anything about the smoking, i have discussed about the sick of having to have our world just so..... or we go after. hey. kinda like now.

i would never discuss this subject with you. you dont have a clue what i think on this subject. anything you say is likely, and has to this point been wrong. battle, really, you have the battle with your ex wife? right. and how is this going for you. what damage do you do to your kids with this hate, that you would follow me on this board, and be sick..... how well are you taking care of your kids.....daughters? right? how is your attitude with women? what are you feeding your kids?

[SidDithers]

106. Thanks, but I'm happily married, 15 years...

two kids 8 and 5. You've obviously got me confused with another poster.

I'm only pointing out the hypocrisy of your position in the Arkansas car-smoking thread of last week, compared to your defense of kids here.

Sid

[seabeyond]

121. thankyou. i wasnt sure.

there were two posters, you were one, it must be the other poster. you missed the point of my posts on that thread, and you refuse to see because of your agenda. you dont know my hypocrsy or otherwise because i refused to share my opinion with you, because i know your limits in this conversation on smoking and i knew i was not going to get a reasonable discussion. again, i am not doing it here. there are people that are anti,.... and are beyond reason. and that is what i was talking about on the arkansas thread. just like those post, this post here says nothing about my position. and you following along calling me a hypocrit is a perfect example of why i refuse to discuss with you, my position on all that.

[Occulus]

66. When I can HAVE a child in every state

without fear of that child being yanked out of my home because I'm gay, I'll start considering your kids.

Until then, you are on your own. Don't expect me to accommodate your lifestyle choice.

[bloom]

74. the "I have a right to be an asshole until the world is perfect" POV

Things won't improve very fast at that rate.

[Occulus]

76. I'm NOT asking for perfect

I'm only asking for the same fucking things YOU expect. Actually, it's the same things you take for granted.

I am going to be adamant on this, and if I come across as a asshole about it, too fucking bad. When I can get married and have kids, I'll show concern. Until then, you made your lifestyle choice, YOU get to pay the piper. NOT me.

Don't expect help OR understanding OR support from me until I can have the same things you do.

[wtmusic]

113. absurd

My kids aren't my "lifestyle choice". They're independent, thinking, breathing Americans -- just like you.

This isn't AT ALL about lifestyle choice. It's a simple issue of consideration.

[Occulus]

122. Didn't like that, did you?

Welcome to MY world. Nobody forced your legs open or held a gun to your head.

You. Made. A. CHOICE.

And, unlike being gay, having a kid is most certainly a conscious choice.

And, as I said before, I will not consider the fact that you have a family into my behavior, attitudes, entertainments, or enjoyments of my own life. You don't deserve that from me or any other gay person.

As I said above, I don't feel you deserve your child tax credits or your legal marriage benefits, either.

If you don't like that, as I said, welcome to MY world.

[wtmusic]

151. I love this

I don't deserve child tax credits, legal marriage benefits. I don't deserve that you consider the fact that you have a family into my behavior, attitudes, entertainments, or enjoyments of my own life.

I don't deserve these things -- but you do.

Listen to yourself, and you may not like what you hear.

BTW -- you're right -- nobody forced my legs open. And as a straight man, I hope no one ever does. :rofl:

[Occulus]

157. See? You DIDN'T like that.

Again: welcome to my world. I can be denied all these things my whole life, and *I* have to just take it, but the moment *I* suggest perhaps the playing field should be leveled by denying those things to everyone... hoo boy, look at the outrage.

How about YOU listen to YOURSELF.

I'm not saying I *do* deserve those things. I'm saying YOU don't deserve them because *I* don't deserve them. I'm perfectly willing to stop asking for those benefits for myself if you lose them- and you definitely do not deserve them from me as the laws stand right now.

[wtmusic]

170. Interesting POV

So to give people rights they may or may not deserve, we should start by *taking away* the rights of others who already have them?

[Occulus]

191. No, you have it backward

If I am not going to be given the rights and benefits of that particular legal status, YOU shouldn't be given them either.

Either I get the same rights and benefits as you, or you deserve to lose those rights and benefits I am denied. I'm perfectly willing to stop fighting for those things if I know YOU don't get them, either.

It's called turnabout, and it is fair play. The fact you're bothered by the mere suggestion, when I have to live with it daily, speaks volumes about how completely ignorant you are regarding what it's really like to live without those rights and protections. Note that that isn't necessarily your "fault"; you probably don't live with that, so you don't have any real reason to consider it.

[progmom]

198. I totally understand why you are angry, but ask that you consider where

...you are directing it.

I'm a gay woman with a child, and I assume that people who post on DU - in general - support the changes in legislation that would enable me to offer the same rights to my partner that I would be able to offer a man if I were to decide to remarry.

[bleedingheart]

35. what about the kids who see violence first hand... and not in pictures

what about the kid here in the US whose father beats the living shit out of mom...or whose mother beats the kid?

What about the kids who watch as their mother or father succumbs to crack or kills themselves out of depression over a job loss?

What about the Iraqi children whose families are blown up daily???


I think the "protect the kid" argument is actually more along the lines of ..."oh my...I can't stand reality"...

[mindfulNJ]

36. A-freaking-men

It's a parent's job to teach children how to live in the world...not separate them from it.

[GumboYaYa]

37. It's not about the kids really, it's about the parents........

Parents who shield their kids from the world to "protect" them aren't raising them to be active participants in the world around them, willing to question the things they see and work to change the world for the better. Protecting kids from the real world around them is just indoctrination into the world of the mindless shopping automotons that predominate our society. Seeing the real impact of our insatiable consumption might make some kids question the wisdom of the lifestyle chosen by their parents, so the parents "protect" them.

It is nonsense. Kids are thinking active participants in the world and should be treated like that. Their opinions deserve respect, just like everyone else's.

When we recently went to New Orleans, my kids got a full tour of all the destroyed neighborhoods. They got out of the car and walked amongst the utter destruction of the lower ninth ward. They saw scenes that some people would clearly tell me that they should be "protected" from. My son cried when he saw a Teddy Bear amongst all the destruction (he loves his own stuffed animal so much, it really struck him hard when he saw another kid's bear in that scene). We talked for hours about the scenes we saw and what it means to us as a family and to the larger family in which all Americans live. Some people may question us for introducing our children to such immense disaster and destruction, but I think kids are better off if you treat them like thinking people who can and should deal with reality (with guidance from loving adults) instead of some fantasy Disneyland we create.

[raccoon]

58. Kudos to you! nt

[laundry_queen]

77. Exactly.

Kids are thinking active participants in the world and should be treated like that. Their opinions deserve respect, just like everyone else's

I share your opinion on this 100%.

[wtmusic]

110. What about adults using foul language around kids,

telling "adult" jokes, etc? Are we denying the entire concept of "age-appropriateness"?

Just asking.

[Occulus]

123. I'll deny it.

If you don't like it, leave. Don't ask me to stop, because I won't. Why? Because you don't deserve it. I won't change the channel, I won't stop the DVD, I won't turn the game off, I won't turn the page, and I won't hush my voice.

I'll change MY tune when my state changes its tune.

[wtmusic]

153. I wasn't asking you

but thanks for your $.02 anyway :eyes:

[Occulus]

160. I don't care who you were asking

and if you don't like my opinion, hit the fucking ignore button.

And if you don't like my behavior around your family, take your family elsewhere.

[wtmusic]

177. I don't ignore people based on their opinion

Never have, never will.

And if you were saying things that I would consider inappropriate for my children, I would take them elsewhere. Not because it's not your right. It's perfectly within your rights to be inconsiderate.

[GumboYaYa]

172. Occassionally, I let my kids go on a cussing binge....

when we are alone at home...just to get it out of their system and help them understand appropriate use of language, whether it is considered cursing or not. We try to teach our kids that words are just words...it's how you use them that matters. If you are using a curse word because you are surprised or hurt and it is simply a strong exclamation it is different than using a curse word to insult or hurt someone. That is true for ordinary everyday language as well. By using the strong example of cursing to make the point, I hope it helps them carry the concept over to their everyday conversations. I hope by doing this, that as they age they will not be disrespectful to people because they think it is cool and rebellious.

[wtmusic]

173. How old? nt

[GumboYaYa]

175. Ten and six.....

My kids are very respectful, thoughtful little humans. We try to give them a lot of experiences and help them deal with them in mature ways. They know not to ever use a curse word in public or even in private at anytime other than when we lift the rules.

[Tsiyu]

39. National Geographics are often a kid's first "prurient" mag!

We used to sneak them into a corner of the library in elementary school so we could see pictures of naked people.

And I lived through the years when they showed you the carnage in Viet Nam every night on the TV. I never could glorify war after that, and I wasn't traumatized by the experience but enlightened.

The question has to be, then: why does somebody want their own child sheltered from even a PHOTOGRAPH of the reality of war, yet they do not mind sending that WAR to another country and forcing THOSE children to LIVE WAR EVERY DAY?

Are some kids on this planet more important than others? Can we allow some to see daily, up-close-and-personal maimings and explosions and death, but some can't even - from miles and worlds away, no less - glance at a photo of the carnage?


Fuck that.

[Ciggies and coffee]

48. Concerning laws being created, follow the money

Friend, there's lots of money to be made, changing human behaviors and keeping the citizens in a constant state of fear. Just remember who the people we "elect" really represent. Our kids and us, outside of their "society class" and "professional class" that carries their water are nothing but commodities, they could give a rats ass about us.

Granted, they do want us to have a higher life expectancy, as a whole. That one is easy to figure out. (hint: think in $$$$)

It is telling how the people who defend government attacks on individual rights
conveniently omit who owns our government.

[BiggJawn]

49. I'd like more "Adult Friendly" places to go, too.

My kid's launched, so I don't exactly qualify as one of those "Selfish kid-less people". So There.

Exhibit One: Las Vegas
WHY?????
News Flash, Parents, Las Vegas gave up on that "Family FUN Destination" idea a few years ago. Are you so besotted with "Barney" and "VeggieTales" that the meaning of the "What's Done Here STAYS Here" ad campaign is lost upon you?

[ScreamingMeemie]

52. I love taking my kids to Vegas. It was one of my favorite vacations with

my daughter. And yes, that ridiculous ad is lost on me. :hi:

[Thtwudbeme]

54. I have never been to Vegas...can't comment on this one.

I have no idea what it's like.

[ScreamingMeemie]

68. I think it's basically a great place for adults to be...and a great

place for a family vacation. It depends on what you go for. It's rather cheap for families.

[seabeyond]

59. bgjawn i dont get this. cell phones, seeing a smoker, a child....ooooh

so many things we let bother us. why are you bothered in las vegas with a child. i lived in reno. i was single and i played and played. and there were kids and they werent mine and not my repsponsibility adn i played and i played. i never had issue with a kid

people talk n cell phones, so what

someone smokes and not in my face who cares

why the hell are we letting every little thing in life irritate us.

[BiggJawn]

78. Because I'm Cynic.

It embarrasses me to see families with kids walking past the "Future Guest Workers" handing out the "Whore Cards". Guess I'm not the Libertine people think Ii am.

Mencken was right. "Expect the worst out of people and you won't be disappointed".

[MazeRat7]

56. I'm right there with you. (n/t)

[shrike]

65. It concerns me how much parents expect the world to accommodate

their children. What kind of message does this send to a kid?

Obviously there must be good schools and physical safety: I don't mind paying taxes for that stuff at all. But there are all the little messages kids get -- I am more important than others' needs. Yes, I know all the arguments about Johnny's self esteem and making him feel secure. But if all Johnny does is please himself; if he doesn't learn how to treat others with kindness and respect at an early age, how can he possibly be expected to do so when he is older?

[deaniac21]

73. I also feel that life should be more geared towards the truly

productive adults like bartenders. Anyone can have a fetus/baby/child but it takes a bartender to pour a drink!

[Beware the Beast Man]

79. But who will pour us our scotches and gins in the future?

:shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

81. Yeah, I know what you mean.

Although when people say "think of the children" they're usually not actually thinking of the children, but themselves.

[w8liftinglady]

84. I have explained to my kids that THIS IS WAR

they knew when their brother was in iraq that this was always a possibility.I want them to understand why i am so fervent in my protest of this war and these bastards.Don't participate in war-like behviors if you don't want to expose your children to war.

[w8liftinglady]

85. oops -dupe

[Jim Warren]

88. I don't know anything

and didn't really read the thread........but your subject line makes me think of a song by Greg Brown(i think) that says "if we really loved the children.....we wouldn't live the way we do".

[opihimoimoi]

94. You tell um Steph...you go girl....

:bounce:

Come, we walk the Beach,,smile, sing, laugh, enjoy Nature while we can....

[dflprincess]

124. Was the letter written by Barbara Bush?

She might have been worried about little Georgie stumbling across some awful truth. (Not that little Georgie would read National Geographic, he just leafs through it looking for pictures of breasts)

[madmusic]

145. Kids

1. If kids were are fragile as some imply, we wouldn't be here to discuss this "issue." We would be extinct.

2. There is an easy solution: take the kids away from the bad parents, sterilize the bad parents, or as some have suggested as being more effective, chop off their heads.

Edit: off

[Chomp]

127. To the OP

You are not a mad hearless monster, as some seem to be suggesting. I am with you 100%. Some people don't seem to be getting what you are saying, which is a shame, because you make a very good point.

EVERYTHING now has to be children-friendly. It is like a collective, guilt-ridden mania in western societies.

The great irony of course is that people often use their children as status symbols and are more concerned with their own place in the status-stakes than they are in the welfare of the kids.

Parents should need a licence IMO.

And for what it's worth I don't have children, but would love to.



Ed: remove a typo

[Thtwudbeme]

132. Thank you, but actually most of the posters are in agreement on this issue

just one that wants to cling to the "village" myth, while the rest of the grownups are grinding their teeth to the nub trying not to snap on their precious pumpkins.

Thank you though; I am sick of having my world...and my damned National Geographic....edited by "concerned parents."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

188. The "it takes a village to raise a child" concept does NOT mean

that everything should be "family friendly."

It means that the community should ensure that children are healthy and well-educated and that children have friendships with adults outside their homes, but it doesn't mean that the whole community should be "child-proofed."

[progmom]

194. and i honestly don't see people suggesting that

i think maybe we're all talking in circles here. for the most part, i bet we agree. what i object to is this apparent inherent dislike of all parents based a few experiences people have had with inconsiderate idiot asshole parents. :(

[ContraBass Black]

133. So, then, I suppose you don't care if threads like this

Make baby Jesus cry? ;)

[Thtwudbeme]

137. I think crummy parents who can't control their kids make baby Jesus

sad.

But, then I read the gnostic gospels of Thomas, and realized what a rotten little fuckwit he was...and what absentee parents Joe and Mary were--waiting for the damned village to correct him....and personally it's no wonder that the fundies are such shitheads.

[MountainLaurel]

140. Hee hee

Only somewhat off topic: I was in a pizza restaurant once where a kid bumped into his mother at the pizza bar. His mother made him apologize for being so clumsy and careless and then told him "Now, tell Jesus you're sorry."

:wtf:

[The Stranger]

149. "Most of all you've got to hide it from the kids . . . "

[Initech]

150. Once again I have to quote George Carlin on this:

"Your children are not special. Kids today are just like any other group of people - a few winners, a whole lot of losers! No use saving them all. You've turned your kids into little cult objects, you have a child fetish, and it's NOT HEALTHY!!!"

And yeah, I'm fucking sick of the whole "Oh wont somebody please think of the children" mentality we have in this country. Just because you're an uptight anal yuppie parent, dont go runining my fun just because you cant do the job you're supposed to be doing in the first place.

[Mad_Dem_X]

152. AMEN! People who use that phrase

often use it to cover up their own hangups. They'll say, "Think of the children," but what they mean is, "*I* don't like seeing this, thinking about this, etc." Waaaah-fuckin'-waaaaah.

[Breeze54]

155. I feel the same way, in some situations but

- "I am angry with your decision to show the picture of the woman injured by the land mine
lying there with one foot blown off and a huge piece of flesh missing from the other leg."

I'll bet the child of that woman would want the world to know what is happening!

I have a friend on another messageboard who wanted the :wtf:

and removed,

"just in case her 6 yr old happened to look at her monitor screen!"

I just had to :banghead: and say, "Gheesh! When and where does it stop?" :grr:

I don't post there and expect six year olds to be reading my posts!!

But the admin. didn't change a thing! :) Thank you!

[Matariki]

166. CHILDREN ARE THE CROWBAR OF FASCISM

and "Think of the Children" is the sound it makes when it hits you over the head.

[JVS]

168. Hyperbole is the crowbar of fascism

[Matariki]

187. No it's not -

it's the back-scratcher of humor. or perhaps the trouser-press of irony?

[JVS]

202. Spinach is the broom of the stomach!

[Done]

169. But...but...what about the children who read your post?

:evilgrin:

[alarimer]

176. I felt the same way when I read that

Not everything needs to be watered down for kids. We don't need to hide the truth (about the Iraq war for example) by sanitizing it for our protection. The mainstream media already does that and I believe that it what will make the war drag on a lot longer. We need to see the reality. I am not sure kids need to see it, but NG should not censor their magazine because some of their photos are a little graphic.

I don't modulate my conversation at all in public. Kids do not belong in bars. Period. They also do not belong in R-rated movies, unless they are over 17. No exceptions. Theaters need to enforce this rule to the extent they can. That is, in fact the rule and not simply my desire not to be around them.
I don't have a problem with them in any other movie unless they are being a pain in the ass.

I agree with your general point, though. Not everything needs to be sanitized to the level of a 5 year old.

I may start another flame war but in some work places, parents take more time off (for doctors, school stuff, etc) and the nonparents are expected to take up the slack. I would be willing if it meant I got paid more or was rewarded in some way (more promotions, etc), but in general that isn't fair. I don't know the extent to which it happens. I have heard anecdotes but have no sound numbers to back it up. it is a sense I get from my own office from time to time as well but I work for the state, which is in some ways far more equitable than many more typical offices.

[madmusic]

178. For the children

Is the best lie to tell to get off work to get your hair done, or go to the game, or get an abortion.

[Breeze54]

180. huh? 'for the children'?

You want an excuse NOT to go to work?

Car has a flat tire and you don't have a working spare.

[Breeze54]

179. Let me just say that...

... as a single parent, I took a lot of 'guff' from fellow disgruntled workers,
who felt 'put upon' by my taking time off to take care of my sons and parents.
But I didn't put my workload on them and I took VACATION time. My earned vacation time.

So, I don't buy that argument. Single parents have to work too.
There were many days that the childless workers didn't show up
because they were to drunk the night before to make it in!
And I DID take up thier slack.
But not trying to start a flame throwing party. :)
But just saying if it's my vacation time, then someone would be there anyway.
Right? :shrug:

[progmom]

197. then you will be happy to know that mothers earn considerably less

"...the wage gap between mothers and non-mothers is greater than between women and men (non-mothers earn 10 percent less than their male counterparts; mothers earn 27 percent less; and single mothers earn between 44 percent and 34 percent less)."

http://www.mothering.com/sections/action_alerts/may2006.html

[earth mom]

184. Let's see. It's okay for you to infringe upon childrens rights

but not okay for them to infringe upon yours? Hmm....I gotta tell ya that it's a two way street.

I find it extremely RUDE and CRUDE that people have absolutely NO regard anymore as to what is appropriate in a public place and what is not. Like some idiot teenager saying Fuck this and Fuck that LOUDLY at the library last week or the stupid college age girl at the garden nursery this past Sunday-on Mothers Day, mind you-who was talking to what was probably her mom LOUDLY about how she didn't want to sleep with some guy anymore. :wtf:

Like I really wanted my 11 year old to hear that kind of crap on what is supposed to be a pleasant and relaxing Mothers Day for our family!!! NOT! :grr:

Hey, I swear as much as the next person, but I do it away from my kids ears. That's what DU is for-LOL! However, I wouldn't want to overhear some dirty joke in a bar-I find it crass. And yeah, I get highly offended when people don't have the class or courtesy to keep their private affairs private or their swearing to a whisper out in public-when my kid is present or not. As for my kid, I make it a top priority to constantly monitor everything; reading, language, T.V., etc. Only to get blind sided when our family is watching what we consider a family program; "Extreme Makeover Home Edition" on Sunday nights; when the network airs a racy Desperate Housewives commercial about 10 minutes before our show ends! And while I do watch Desperate Housewives myself, I do NOT want my kid watching it because I do not want my kid growing up too fast and there is nothing wrong with that, IMO!!!

What ever happened to our civil and polite society?! The one that had rules on what was acceptable behavior in public? I'm not talking Victorian times here, but when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s, I NEVER heard the word Fuck except in a whisper! And if my parents heard me say it, I would get my mouth washed out with soap. No joke. Back then, people did not talk about very private issues while shopping and we certainly didn't have to change the channel on the t.v. because some racy commercial blind sided us during prime time t.v.!

I would really like to see people exercise a little more common courtesy for others and not be so selfish in not caring about how their behavior and words effects other people and most importantly children. After all, our children are our country's future. Gawd knows none of us want to see the kind of rude and crude behavior we are seeing in our so called leaders like the pretzeldent flipping people off and Cheney shooting his friend in the face! :eyes:

If we don't monitor ourselves and strive to be a civilized and respectful society, then that is EXACTLY the kind of rude and crude behavior we WILL be looking at in the future...

:rant:

[Homer Wells]

185. Just another excuse for doing whatever they want

"Think of the Children" was the buzz-phrase of the Right in the early years of the new century,(hell, even during the Clinton years,) as an excuse for bashing anything the jerks wanted to keep out of the public forum, and as an excuse for any actions of their Conservative leaders that was contrary to their own narrow thinking.
It was so much easier for them after 9/11, when the new buzz words became "national security', '9/11', or perhaps "Terra! Terra!"
Parents are responsible for their children, and it is up to them to teach them what is right and what is wrong.
Adults, on the other hand, can judge this for themselves, and need no help from those who claim the right to police the rest of us. I consider myself fairly intelligent, and don't require a sanitized view of the world!



:mad:

[SmokingJacket]

189. Not swearing in public is just polite --

lots of people might be offended, and even though I think it's dumb to be offended by the word FUCK I don't use it in public, just to be nice.

If I'm sitting in Friendly's with my kids eating sundaes, I wish they didn't have to listen to a graphic description of a drunken orgy from the next booth. Yeah, those guys had the RIGHT to talk like that, but we live in a culture of lots of different kinds of people -- it's nice if people would respect others, their kids included.

But yeah, NG is for adults, so that's dumb.

[Greyhound]

201. Rarely have I read such a lengthy example of unjustified,

self-righteous indignation. The breeders are certainly insistent about controlling your actions. This amerikan notion that their choice to become a human xerox machine somehow places a duty on every other person to ensure that their little angels must never encounter any of life's unpleasantness.

[Midlodemocrat]

203. Breeders? Nice, real nice.

Try and remember that you wrote that when you are in a nursing home and one of the 'breeder's' children is changing your diaper.

Disgusting.

[Name removed]

208. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fishnfla]

206. nonsense

stupidest post on DU I've read in a long, long time

[Greyhound]

209. Really? Which part? n/t

[Balbus]

204. No kids in bars!!!

I'm right there with you on that one... But I don't read national geographic - too many words.

[Midlodemocrat]

205. I am going to lock this.

It has gotten pretty flamey and frankly, the two sides arguing aren't ever going to agree.

Thank you.

DU Moderator.

[BlackVelvet04]

210. I've read through most of this thread

and I'd like to offer the point of view of a heterosexual, married female who is unable to have children.

I used to babysit my nieces and nephews all the time. Neighbor's children, too. I loved it at one time.

More and more those who don't have children are inundated with "what about the kids" mentality. People bring their children to my house and I'M supposed to keep them out of the cabinets with chemicals, I'M supposed to keep them away from my computer, tools, etc. Quite frankly, I'M tired of it.

I pay real estate taxes for children to go to school and many of their parents don't even make them do their homework. Kids are completely out of control at school and yet I have to support their education.

I don't hate kids....I love some of them and like most of them BUT THEIR PARENTS ARE OFTEN A ROYAL PAIN IN THE ASS.

Maybe that doesn't apply to the parents posting in this thread. If not, GOOD ON YA, but if it does I suggest you get it together and realize that the rest of us are tired of taking care of someone else's children.

Here are some of things I find most annoying:

Kids in grocery stores running up and down the aisle running into my cart, etc.
Kids in movies squalling, talking and being obnoxious.
Kids in restaurants acting like hooligans.
Kids running around in MY yard.
Being expected to NOT smoke in MY house because of the kids I didn't invite in the first place.
Kids rustling around in my cabinets.
Kids playing with my computer.

If you see yourself and your kids in that list YOU are the problem.

After having a miscarriage I came to realize that I probably wouldn't have made a great parent, for many reasons including health reasons. I don't want to parent someone else's children.

[Pithlet]

211. Locking.

The first lock didn't click.