"We will have to get used to dying again."

[AlienGirl]

A couple days ago, the people I work with were sitting around the breakroom table. The boss, who shows the signs of a hard life lived as well as he could, was there; and so were two recent high-school graduates who are in the same junior college; and the fiftyish woman from Holland. The topic of health care costs came up.

"Is it better to go broke trying to fight a disease, and end up on assistance, or not to seek care and die, leaving your family behind?" the woman from Holland asked. "Me, I wouldn't fight it."

"What it boils down to," said the boss, "is we have to address the very basic question of how much we are responsible for each other. And I won't get into that." The boss wears a cross around his neck and is probably Republican, but is also a very Christian sort of Christian, always looking to give people second and third chances.

"We need socialized medicine," the woman from Holland said bluntly. "In Holland everyone gets it all. Here you need to be rich."

I put in, "What would happen to any of us if we needed, say, a heart transplant? What are we supposed to do if we get seriously ill?"

One of the junior college students spoke up. This is the future of our nation speaking here, and I fear we must listen to what he has to say. "We will have to get used to dying again," he said. "In the past, if you got sick, you died. Babies died. Children died. Young people my age died. Now people think only the old should die, and doctors should do whatever expensive heroic measures they have to keep us alive, and we need to get out of that attitude. Look at the art of the plague years, people knew about death then and they were used to it. We just have to get used to it, too."

There was some silence, and then the woman from Holland spoke again. "We need socialized medicine, but nobody in this country will go for it."

"It's easier," said the junior college student, "to get used to dying."

Tucker

[rawtribe]

1. Maybe a healthy diet

and exercise could help. Prevention, anyone?

[NMMNG]

4. Prevention is a key element

And one that has not been stressed enough previously. However that doesn't negate the fact that no matter what, people are going to need health care during their lives be it for accidents/injuries, accute illnesses and/or chronic diseases. And for that we need to address the problem of our broken health care system.

[rawtribe]

8. Agreed...

I pay my insurance premium every month, at the same time I educate myself on the lifestyle choices that minimize the chance I'll need the insurance. Universal coverage is a goal we should all strive for.

[Horse with no Name]

62. You also have to figure in that our environment

is causal in some illnesses. Things we have no control over.
Pollution wreaks havoc on those with underlying lung conditions. As more and more air pollution standards are lowered, this will increase.
Extreme heat and cold affect certain respiratory conditions. With global warming we will see a marked increase in heat related incidents.
Extrinsic factors such as reducing stress, eating better, etc. will be hard to maintain.
People worried about finances, worried about their jobs being outsourced,etc, there really isn't anything you can do NOT to worry.
In our country, if you want to eat healthy, it costs quite a bit more than eating empty calories.
The fact that you can buy 3 boxes of mac and cheese for a $1.00, yet a head of lettuce isn't that cheap.
Because of gas and utility prices going up, wages stagnating, you will see a domino effect as more people start eating this highly processed, empty food and stop eating as many fresh foods. Heart disease will increase, cholesterol levels will increase, people (especially children) will get fatter. The health of the entire country will decline--except for the richest.
In fact, it wouldn't surprise me to see a resurgence of iron deficiency anemias, vitamin deficiencies, malnutrition, etc.
It is CRIMINAL that we live in the richest nation in the world, with access to the most advanced medical technology, yet too many of our citizens are not able to take advantage of it and too many citizens go to be hungry.

[henslee]

10. I can tell you first hand that since I have been cooking for my

73 year old mom who had health problems, she is for the most part 100 percent. Besides a random ache. It took 6 months but she has no more arthritis complaints, no more chronic pain/nerve problems. She sleeps well. Has a good sense of well being. I attribute it to diet and exercise More fresh fruits, fresh veggies, whole grains, nuts, plenty of water, no white flour, etc.

I just have to agree with you regading diet.

[lectrobyte]

27. Yes, but... what if you live in a polluted country, and the new EPA

standards for benzene in our drinking water is just high enough to guarantee you get liver cancer, no matter how good your diet and exercise are?

[AlienGirl]

28. I was a 28-year-old vegan who exercised daily when I got oral cancer

I have never used tobacco, didn't drink, had no risk factors at all. Sometimes things just happen. Genetic destiny? Something in my environment when I was a little kid? Something in my environment then? Luckily I had the insurance to fight it with surgery, radiation, and chemo; but even then it came at a high price (my marriage, my children...) and I do still have a lot of debt from treatment related to it.

Not everything can be prevented by diet and exercise.

Tucker

[NorthernSpy]

36. a lot of the lifestyle-based "prevention" dogma is just victim-blaming

Where serious illness is concerned, you have partial control over some of the risk factors. And diet and exercise choices amount to only a fraction of the opportunities for exerting that partial control.

Both the extent and the nature of ones control over ones health have been badly misportrayed throughout our culture. The result is that we tend to blame people for getting sick, which is generally as dishonest as it is cruel.

[Ciggies and coffee]

46. When oil gets expensive enough, and more folks garden and hunt

This situation may self-correct.

[SmokingJacket]

63. People didn't live so long back in the days when everyone

hunted and gathered.

[Sapphire Blue]

2. To everything there is a season

[REP]

3. He Makes A Good Point

I think about these things; I have a disease that will eventually cause me to become dependent upon a machine (or part of another person's body) and will cause my death. There will be a point at which I will have to decide whether or not to continue treatment.

Billions of dollars are thrown at keeping alive people at the very end of life. One example: that woman who died of melanoma and who was kept on life support so her fetus could develop, and after the fetus was delivered, it died within a few weeks. Millions of dollars was spent on that - how many people with treatable diseases could have been helped with that much money? How many senior citizens could have had their prescriptions paid for the rest of their lives for the same amount?

Socialized medicine and prolonging end-of-life are really two different issues. I believe the US is one of the few countries, if not the only one, that spends so much money on prolonging the the very end of life.

[AlienGirl]

31. I think the point was that the best, high-tech care is out of reach

There are staggering advances made in medicine every year, but for most people the best, cutting-edge-tech care is financially out of reach, not just for end-of-life care, but for things like getting a marrow transplant for cancer found in mid-life.

Tucker

[Ciggies and coffee]

49. We met the point of diminishing returns decades ago

The more we try to live forever, the more exponentially expensive it will get.

[EFerrari]

5. I'm glad I'm not teaching right now. I don't think I could

deal with that much honesty every day.

[rman]

6. "Children died. Young people my age died"... in the Middle Ages

Just don't call it progress, or civilized, or compassionate.

Btw, we don't have socialized medicine in Holland any more. Not as expensive as in the US, but privatized none the less.
It's all about "more personal responsibility", not taking care of each other. So much for "society".

[Mandate My Ass]

16. Good call on the "personal responsibility" meme

I believe what he's implying is "other people should get used to dying rather than any of my tax dollars going to take care of somebody else." The young tend to think of themselves as invincible.

Nobody in this country should be dying of diabetes or high blood pressure or other chronic ailments that can be managed with meds and regular check-ups.

It seems to me that social darwinism becoming widely accepted by the very victims of that hateful ideology.

[raccoon]

29. When did THAT happen?

"we don't have socialized medicine in Holland any more. "

[rman]

53. happened this year

Came into effect 1st of february.

[The Wielding Truth]

52. 'Republicans* building a bridge to the 14th century!" One of my fav's.

[icymist]

7. Frankly, It is easier to get used to the idea of dying.

That's how I see it will be in America, only with a cynical twist, that the people dying somehow deserved to die. Be it their lifestyle, or sexual choice, or stressful jobs, the politicians in this country will always cave in to the lobbyist that paid them into saying that those people deserved to die. We all need to either wake fully up to this situation or learn the art of dying.

[rawtribe]

9. Knowledge is power.

Don't be a victim of the pharmaceutical, medical establishment. Odds are they will kill you before they cure you.

[Ciggies and coffee]

51. Have a sicker, longer living population

Money in the bank.

Sad that greed has turned medicine, over the past century, from compassionate tradespeople into a slick, PR-polished industry.

[greenman3610]

11. working in a hospital

it is always stunning the continuing level of ignorance and
apathy toward self care.
And I'm talking about staff, - don't get me started
on the patients.

[greekspeak]

13. Self care...there is a can of worms I would not be wanting to open

I would agree that if people took good care of their bodies, the whole country would be better off. But the definition of "take care" seems to shift like sand dunes. The predominant voices scream to get out there and exersize. Yesterday, ClintMax had a news program on (CNN?) screaming how bad exersize can be. THen on to diet. Sure some constants are there--eat your veggies. But then we get bombarded with "don't eat eggs" and then "eggs are OK." Then we get "(x food) causes cancer." Then it turns out it doesn't. Then we get magic bullets. Drink red wine! Eat dark chocolate! Then it turns out that those claims are empty, or the opposite happens. Americans get mixed messages on health care every day. On top of this, Americans love to eat. They also LOVE television. Many Americans work a lot of hours on their butts. Working out is hard, and it takes time from other activities.

I guess what I am trying to say is that it is easier to tell Americans to take care of themselves than it is to actually take care of oneself.

[raccoon]

32. Another example of that, for years women past the menopause

were put on various HRT drugs--supposedly that was better for them. Then it came out that it could actually be harmful.

[Ciggies and coffee]

54. You committed a heresy

People are not to have free will, when it comes to health. sarc./

Fear and slander of establishment non-approved medicine, as well as discouragement and confusion when it comes to diet and exercise, are common themes to keep an eye out for. They keep a certain percentage of the public
captive to the professionals.

Regarding research, anything can be bought for the right price.

[China_cat]

12. It truly makes me wonder why

when the majority of us will never be able to afford to take advantage of it, we should bother to donate blood. Or sign up to be organ donors or bone marrow donors.

Let the rich get used to dying just like the rest of us.

[raccoon]

33. Good point. nt

[Horse with no Name]

64. Organ recipients aren't always rich

and many are children.
I can't blame them for the mess of our society when we can fix the problem.

[Chimichurri]

14. How sad that young person has already given up. I fear for our

future because his generation will be our leaders one day.

Pathetic.

[treestar]

39. He will probably change his tune when it's him

[Junkdrawer]

15. "We will have to get used to child labor again."

"We will have to get used to slavery again."

:(

[anarch]

50. what do you mean "again"?

Who do you think makes all those clothes they sell at Wal-Mart and whatnot?

[Junkdrawer]

55. Good point!

:hi:

[clyrc]

17. He just sounds very young to me

I bet that if he had a loved one get sick, and he knew there was a possible cure, the importance of living would be brought straight home to him. Even if you are compassionate by nature, it sometimes takes a bit of living to understand some things.

[HeeBGBz]

18. I expect to just die

If I get any major illness, I'll be history. I've excepted that.

[Bridget Burke]

19. Spoken by a kid who's never been touched by death.

Is he a Goth?

(My father died when I was 4, so I learned about that part of reality early on.)

[The2ndWheel]

38. Where does it say the kid has never been touched by death?

Maybe he hasn't been, but nowhere in that story does it say that.

Everything has a natural life cycle. Some people live until they're 80, some infants die at 3. Our attempts to cheat death are putting far too much pressure on our life support systems. But who doesn't want to live forever? The problem is everyone can't, but we're damn sure going to try. We're on an out of control rollar coaster, and we're not going to get off voluntarily.

[Bridget Burke]

40. So--the answer to health care problems is to let more people die?

I'm definitely in favor of Advanced Directives--Living Will, Durable Power of Attorney, etc. And parents of very young children with no chance at a good life should be able to refuse extraordinary medical treatment.

But your answer appears to indicate that we should just let more people of all ages die in order to save money.

I do believe the kid has never been touched by death & doesn't realize that he will die someday. Perhaps he wouldn't be so cavalier if he spent less time listening to Whomever Is Following In the Footsteps of Joy Division. Well, we were all young & foolish once.

[The2ndWheel]

43. I could care less about the money

It's a tough question. I'm not saying we should just let more people die for money, but on the other hand I do think that existence has a natural life cycle, and that humans are just screwing with it. Life has a balance, and it evens out over time, one way or another. If that sounds like I'm saying we should just let people die with an emotionless gaze on our faces as we watch, I don't mean it to sound that way, and I'm not trying to say that.

And I do think that kid realizes he's going to die someday. Why else would he say we have to get used to dying again?

[Bridget Burke]

44. The kid said "we have to get used to dying"....

Becuase he is ignorant of the idea. Lots of us know that others die--those we love & absolute stangers. And someday it will be our turn.

Please name one example of screwing with our "natural life cycle." I've already said I agree with Advanced Directives.

[The2ndWheel]

47. This is ignorance of the idea of death?

"We will have to get used to dying again," he said. "In the past, if you got sick, you died. Babies died. Children died. Young people my age died. Now people think only the old should die, and doctors should do whatever expensive heroic measures they have to keep us alive, and we need to get out of that attitude. Look at the art of the plague years, people knew about death then and they were used to it. We just have to get used to it, too."

He went back to the art of plague years. He said young people his age died too. Doesn't sound like he think he's immortal. Sounds like he realizes he grew up at a time when industrial medicine keeps the mass of people alive who would've been dead before.

Well, any type of medicine is tampering with the natural life cycle. Not saying it's all bad, but there are drawbacks. More people, using more resources, straining the land, invading other habitats, expanding centers of power through war(example being Manifest Destiny) because as populations grows continuously you need more stuff one way or another, etc.

[Bridget Burke]

48. "any type of medicine is tampering with the natural life cycle"....

Glad to know that you & yours promise to avoid all medical care. Wouldn't voluntary use of contraception be a more humane method of limiting population?

Yeah, the kid has read some books. Let's go back to the Good Old Days!

[AlienGirl]

59. If you get cancer, will you get chemo? Or let nature take its course?

[AlienGirl]

41. Not a Goth, just a fairly ordinary nineteen-year-old

[Blue_Tires]

61. that's what i was thinking

i bet you dollars to yen that if our student (or his SO) was diagnosed with a terminal illness, the FIRST thing out of his mouth is "Why me? I'm too young to deal with this/die!!!"

[mdmc]

20. I tried to post something in GD regarding our perceptions of death

and it got moved to the lounge. In the lounge it was a joke.

Thank you for this OP.

My op was based on some questions that I ask "at risk teens" when they get comfortable with me. I ask them if they ever thought about their own death. How would they like to pass on? How do they expect to pass on?

When the kids are suffering from ptsd (such as abuse or rape victims) I often find a huge discrepancy in their responses. "I would like to die rich and old. I will probably die on the street; shot dead by a gangster."

Most of the teens I worked with have thought a great deal about suicide and about mortality. All of the ptsd kids had thought of these things.

The "spoiled brats" generally never considered that they were mortal. This is an eye opener for them.

[mdmc]

21. k/r

:shrug:

[mdmc]

26. there were some neat responses before it got lounged

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x5156449

[sweetheart]

24. Choosing your moment

It is the grand finally of life, death, the greatest moment, the top of life's staircase.
I would rather choose that moment on my own terms in a place i choose than on some machine
in a hospital. Death is an estatic transition, a totally beautiful thing.

[mdmc]

25. thank you sweetheart

:)

My OP was a discussion on impermanence, and suggested that 'resting the mind', thinking, or meditating on impermanence (on our eventual passing) is the greatest meditation possible.

[sweetheart]

30. surrendering activity

To totally surrender all activity, to remain conscious as the non-active
awakeness that is always aware in every moment, but to surrender, finally,
all hope, all illusion, indeed death is an undoing worth facing. It sheds
so much love, so much awareness of what really is important, as if in realizing
the fragility of life and its inevitable poignant mortality, comes truth
and maturity.

[mdmc]

37. beautiful

:kick:

[sendero]

22. I think..

.... the kid's comments are more reflective of his own illusion of youthful invincibility than any lifelong point of view.

It's easy to talk like that when sickness and death seem like something that only happens to others.

[Bridget Burke]

42. "They'll all be sorry when I'm gone"....

Unlike Tom Sawyer & Huck Finn, most of us don't get to show up at our own funeral.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. We are used to people dying. Other people.

Millions of Africans die needlessly ever year and the world ignores them while focusing on the latest antics of celebrities and the blather of politicians.

3000 Americans were killed and we murdered 100,000 Iraqis and cheered while we did it.

12,000,000 residents of this country are threatened with deportation back to places of inconceivable poverty and starvation and we think it's a good idea.

We've gotten very used to people dying.

[Triana]

34. Sounds like my friend who says people ought to just drop dead

when they are sick or injured instead of seeking or expecting care they can't afford. "That's what they did 100 years ago" he said.

[Elidor]

35. College students

Some of the most ignorant garbage I've ever heard comes out of the mouths of two college students I work with. Listening to them, I have to wonder: was I that fucking stupid at their age? I honestly don't know.

[Ciggies and coffee]

45. Let me die when my time is up..

Why live a couple more miserable years, both for me and those close to me?

I know the medical industry has a vested interest in charging a hundred grand or more to prop me up a little longer, "Just prop me up beside the jukebox.." and give that suitcase of 100s to my heirs and younger folks in a bind.

[Vinca]

56. Speaking as an uninsured person who is still a few years from

Medicare, if I become seriously ill and the outcome is "iffy," I would choose to go home and die peacefully. I refuse to subject myself to treatment that would be expensive and futile and leave my husband and cats living in a Maytag box on the street. Maybe that's part of what is wrong with the system. A person might be diagnosed with advanced pancreatic cancer and everyone knows it's a death sentence, yet they treat the person with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of surgery, chemo and radiation in the hopes of gaining a couple of months. We definitely need universal care, but we also need to accept the fact that life ends.

[bloom]

57. I think there is an obsession

with the idea that people have to prolong life as long as possible.

I think it would be far better for everyone to have basic healthcare than to expect a few - or even half of the people to be cured of every possible thing that could happen.

I think being able to accept death is healthy. I don't plan on getting extraordinary care - so I'm not just talking about other people. It's the attitude that I choose. It's possible that I could change my mind. But I don't think I will.

[Marr]

58. If society will just let the individual die, then the individual has no

reason to contribute to society. None.

Why should people sign up for military service and risk their lives enforcing the will of a privileged few at the top? If that person should be resigned to death anyway, why should the individual respect the law? There is such a thing as a social contract.

[bemildred]

60. This is my position these days.

I won't give the fuckers anymore money willingly. If I get something fatal, then I'll just have to die. When there is an honest health care system again, I'll reconsider.

[SmokingJacket]

65. Most depressing thread EVER.

Not a criticism. Just an observation...