A Challenge for Will Pitt re Rove Indictment coverage. $$$ for the DU

[symbolman]

I'm frankly sick of the weekly Leoplod "ROVE TO BE INDICTED NEXT WEEK" threads which take up space for other important issues.

I want Rove Indicted just as much as the next guy and spent over a year researching it myself, even made a film about it that many people have found helpful, but man, I really wish some people would do what Pitt said and TAKE A FREAKING BREATH, but for a different reason.

Once you do, you might want to take a look at the archives and check out what Leoplod has written before, either posted madly here by lots and lots of people, clogging up the Gen Discussion, and assailed with so much passion each time that now it's reached Hysterical proportions.

Haven't you wondered WHY all the MAJOR Blogs, the ones that have huge followings for a reason, they are fact checkers for the LEFT, haven't been posting any of this Leoplod crap? How about why ALL of the Media, who actually DO have tons of people investigating the "scoop of the decade" and want it BADLY, make no mention of any of what leopold is writing, like THEY have NO sources?

It's because it's sensationalism, wordsmithing at it's best, I'll give that to him. In some ways I'd say some of you have been Punk'd. Just like Tweety. Only Tweety isn't jumping up and down like it's TRUE ALREADY. It's not. It hasn't happened, anyone notice that?

Anyone remember that most sites of any integrity were writing (and even some of the MSM were saying it) that Rove would PROBABLY, IN ALL LIKELIHOOD, be INDICTED within 10 days to TWO WEEKS. And that was over TWO WEEKS ago. I said it almost two years ago, it's in my film as proof.

Do you actually believe that EIGHT Republican Aides IN the White House would tell the TRUTH to anyone? If anyone else wrote this you'd be saying it was a ROVE TRICK, or that they are ALL LIARS and can't be trusted (and you'd probably be correct)..

Celebrate WHEN IT HAPPENS. This is nothing more than someone "predicting" something over and over until it finally happens (and since I DID all that research I personally am GODDAM sure Rove will be Indicted), once a week, twice a week.. it's like throwing a dart over and over at a dartboard until you score a bullseye and then claiming that you "won" the game (got the "scoop", which will vault you into the million buck DRUDGE catagory), when you didn't actually PLAY the game properly or fairly or by the rules. Then complaining that the "other guy" is cheating..

A SCOOP isn't had by crying "wolf" once or twice a week until something happens, that's just placing chips on ALL the markers on a roulette table so that you can "guarantee" that you "win", even tho what's lost may be more important that the win itself, integrity for the LEFT, so that WE do not look like a bunch of BOZO REPEATER STATIONS to the REAL media with all the money, who WE are trying to get to TELL the TRUTH. We cannot do that if WE DO NOT.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

C'Mon folks, I know you want it bad, but this hysteria is so overboard it's unbelieveable.

And none dare speak up for fear that those that want it SO BAD will fall on them like a rabid pack of wolves, and attack them for saying, "Hey, this guy is WRONG more than he's right.." Let's not give that gift TO the right, so they can kick us around. We LOSE POWER when this happens, or even look goddam silly.

I for one DO NOT believe Leopold anymore, don't think I did from the start. While he's supplied some information that a lot of people didn't know, and that's a good thing, he's also thrown a few turds in the stew, which to me render it inedible.

Now people are running all over the Internet saying that "MONDAY ROVE WILL BE INDICTED", and some people at least have the sense to remind people that "Leoplod never said 'monday', exactly".. which still sounds like a copout.. It's an open ended article, and artfully crafted as such, whereas before - the Target Letter had been delivered to Rove/Luskin a MONTH ago, according to Leopold's WORDS on the radio and posted here.. he's said it over and over "on the heels of a TARGET LETTER".. here as well and at Truthout.

Once again no major blog/news picked it up. Anyone paying attention to that? Or do you just not care, because that's even worse, and for all of us. You can attack me if you want, but I DO CARE if the Left is pushing bull or not. You want a Fair Media, Truth? Then you have to FIGHT for it, just like Freedom. Demand the truth and nothing less. And not forgive a Constant series of "mistakes", that's fine for missing dental appointments or losing keys, but NOT for one of the most important stories in our nation's history.

First Fitz is under NO obligation to deliver a Target letter, but if he did you can BET he wouldn't wait a MONTH or MORE to drag Rove before the Public Judge two floors down from the Grand Jury VERY SOON after they voted to Indict.

Okay, I have a challenge for Will Pitt

(Understand that I'm not saying that I think Will is a bad guy, far from it, and I'm sure he's pissed as hell at me now, but we used to get along pretty good, he even offered his own father's help to me in a personal crisis)..

But he mentioned in a thread that he's backing Leoplod "100%" and that he would "open his wallet and bet everything in it" (this was before THIS article that came out today, May 12th) that what Leoplod has written is CONCRETE (Will's exact words)..

Well, in an effort to keep the Left's Internet journalistic standards SO SQUEAKY CLEAN that the RIGHT cannot use our statements against us, I am willing to Challenge Will Pitt with a ONE THOUSAND DOLLAR donation, to the DU By the Losing party.

I claim that there was NO Target Letter as described in the Legal Code used by Fitz that was delivered to Rove or Luskin ON OR ABOUT April 26th, the date of the article and claimed by Leopold and yourself as FACT on your site, and here as well.

We can use Firedoglake to make the call on this once all the facts are in, as they are both prosecutors and legals there, Jane Hamsher or Christie, as to whether a TRUE Target Letter was delivered (and I mean IN WRITING, not a "warning", or some phone call, a REAL TARGET LETTER per Code) on or before April 26th, 2006.

One simple fact in one article. But you can lose a Kingdom for want of a nail, and we need Truth in our (the Left's) Reporting more than ever.

Should I lose I will publicly apologise for having doubted that particular piece of information from you and Leoplod, both here and on my own website Takebackthemedia.com (but not for the multiple times Leopold cried wolf on the TIME of Indictments), While in Will's case, we ask that he print a retraction regarding the Target Letter's insertion in that article (as well as the next article where the Target Letter is inferred to as a FACT), that Leopold's article was dead wrong on both the Target Letter and insisting that an Indictment was pending so many times in a row, over weeks - (up to his "article" TODAY, where he is really saying that there is no fixed date, just soon.. )

(This is not to imply that I believe that Rove will be Indicted MONDAY or even perhaps this week, tho I may be wrong, I DO admit that I look forward to his Indictment ASAP, but I'm not going to join the masses in screaming "OH BOY TODAY IS THE DAY!" When it's really not indicated, just alluded to, there's no "there" there if you ask me.)

Well, Mr Pitt? Do you back your words, your man, his writing? I want you to know that another reason I make this challenge is to clear the name of Truthout. Believe it or not, it has come to my attention that there are now blogs claiming that TO has less integrity, very influential blogs/websites that could make your site less visible than it should be - not my site, we have never said one unkind word on it against TO, but we also don't want that loss of TO credibility to continue. We insist that TO be a shining example as it has been in the past, and that is mostly what I am striving for by making this gentlemanly Challenge to you.

This is not designed to inflame anyone, but to demand truth in left wing articles, especially in Historical episodes the like of which have never been seen before in our country. And to also disarm the right, so we can beat them. I know how it works, I've made them fold up like lawnchairs on television with FACTS. The right can't deal with FACTS.

But don't try to outbullshit them, you don't have enough money or staff, or reach. The TRUTH DOES, it's FREE and very Powerful when applied properly.

Let me know what's in your wallet. Maybe some folks might want to donate to TO so you can make the ante for this Challenge, might even help your site with some extra money.

From what you've said, it's a sucker bet, and I'm just the kind of fool to take you up on it. :)

I'll take that chance, and in the end the DU wins, I think that's a good deal, for all of us.

[Karmakaze]

1. Damn :)

Ok that has to be the most hardcore calling out Ive ever seen on DU :)

The Symbolman 1000 dollar challenge!

[Nimrod2005]

2. All Will did was tell us a message, no? from another source?

Did he not post a link...etc.?

You seem to have lots of time on your hands, get out and walk around today, get some fresh air.

[symbolman]

6. Actually I don't

I'm a hard working activist and I'm just saying that if the left is going to represent itself as a viable news source then it needs to be taken seriously and use factual material. Like DailyKos, AmericaBlog, Atrios and a few other heavy hitters.

My site calls for the reinstatement of the Fairness Doctrine and we've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars fighting for truth in all media, any of the old timers here will vouch for my work.

[Maddy McCall]

7. Expect the ad hominems from the fan club.

Come's with the territory.

[Oversea Visitor]

3. Haha all cant wait

Me wait. Why

See my tinfoil hat with studded diamond
Fitz after chimp..........frying Rove easy already in wok with lots of oil. Now on slow burn.
Who was the dumb reporter that say Fitz know who it was.
Same dumb reporter still not call yet.

When Fitz get what he wants.
He just flick switch for good Rove roast.
Then start getting new wok and pour in lots of oil.

Impeach chimp why bother, roasted chimp sound damn nice.

[HereSince1628]

4. If Leopold is wrong on this one, he will have trashed himself forever

This story is SO big it's hard to imagine anyone being daring enough or intoxicated enough to ignore the risks of creating such a huge fiction.

I don't know how Truthout works. But it seems if they have any editorial board filtering what gets posted this last Leopold story would be very carefully scrutinized because the players would recognize the stakes.

That single thought is gnawing at my general cynicism about Leopold. Would anyone spin such a huge fabrication? Why would people at Truthout let Leopold risk their reputation, perhaps their existance?

[symbolman]

13. I think the last article is open ended enough

to make the "Kill the Pig, Spill the Blood" people happy, so that no matter WHEN ("Gee who CARES if someone says he was to be Indicted 4 or 5 times, he's INDICTED, why aren't you Happy?") the Indictment comes the accolades can be shouted from the rooftops and flowers strewn in the path of the Victors.

Unfortunately some folks think that as a story progresses that more info needs to be found out, and it's just too far out there for me to believe that White House aides, more than say ONE, would all make these statements?

This sounds more like Capitol Hill Blue as it's written, like they have a super secret agent fly with video and microphones on the wall.

Maybe it's like that picture of Jesus in the stain of a stone that Colbert showed on his show, and he said, "Even the Tortilla looked more like Jesus.. at least show me an EYE.."

[Maddy McCall]

5. Very interesting...

Bookmarking this.

This paragraph:

Celebrate WHEN IT HAPPENS. This is nothing more than someone "predicting" something over and over until it finally happens (and since I DID all that research I personally am GODDAM sure Rove will be Indicted), once a week, twice a week.. it's like throwing a dart over and over at a dartboard until you score a bullseye and then claiming that you "won" the game (got the "scoop", which will vault you into the million buck DRUDGE catagory), when you didn't actually PLAY the game properly or fairly or by the rules. Then complaining that the "other guy" is cheating..

Yep. :thumbsup:

Edit to add: And I bought the tequila for the Cinco De Mayo indictment celebration, only to still have it in my cupboard. :(

[rodeodance]

8. Just a reminder-there were posts who put forth caution. I did not want

Rove laughing at us if this is hoax (put out by the 8 WH advisors).

Your point is well taken-

[symbolman]

9. I noticed yours

and appreciate your caution, it's shared.

And as for speculation it could just as well be Andrew Card that gets Indicted or any number of people - there's a rainbow of SCUM to be picked from :)

[MazeRat7]

10. This should be good.....

I'd better get the popper and margarita machines fired up.....

:popcorn:

MZr7

[kurth]

11. Internecine warfare is how Democrats lose elections

Along with procrastination (e.g. contemplating one's navel while being swiftboated), complacency (e.g. assuming American voters can't be such total fucking morons), and perfectionism (e.g. it's better to be PERFECT than to let evil triumph).

[symbolman]

18. I disagree and think

Democrats lose when they bullshit other democrats for their own ends.

[H2O Man]

12. And how would you

propose settling such a bet? Are you suggesting the letter is a matter of public record?

[annabanana]

14. In other words.. It might NEVER become a matter

of public record, right?

[H2O Man]

17. Well

I think in order for the challenge for a $1000 bet to have merit, it would be important for there to be a way that everyone would agree it could be "settled." That just might prove difficult. For example, can anyone here tell us for sure when Mr. Libby's attorneys got such a letter, if indeed they did?

[symbolman]

21. I'll call some friends in the Govt

on Monday and see how such answers are arrived at. I'm willing to bet that even Time Magazine will mention a Target Letter and when it was delivered.

I've got some pals who know some folks in DC. I'll find out.

Of course I have no intention of cheating or skating on my responsibility.

[H2O Man]

22. Okay.

You are going to tell us on what date Mr. Libby's attorneys got a letter from Mr. Fitzgerald. I think the answer will surprise you.

[symbolman]

26. Why not tell us if you know?

I'm all ears.

[H2O Man]

30. Okay.

Regarding the questions of indictments and letters of intent/status, I would respectfully submit that you raised the questions in your OP. I am asking you if you have a method that would prove, no matter what may or may not happen next week, if a letter was definitely delivered or not? Without that, is the challenge of the $1000 bet meaningful? One way that you might gage that is to look to see if there is any proof of when Mr. Libby's lawyers got such a letter? Or if there is evidence they did not?

I am not claiming to be the knower-of-all, or to have every answer. But I am convinced that everyone involved in this on-going dispute would benefit by knowing more about the nature of such letters.

[symbolman]

37. Firedoglake has a lot of good information on that

and that is why I mentioned them. I think they are very careful and honest and dilligent. It's 3:30 am where I am, but I will have my wife do the research and look myself, they had a LOT of legal info on Target letters.

While looking at how Libby's was or was not delivered and in what fashion or time frame, it still does not change the fact that the Leopold article in question April 26th, said that a Target Letter was received BEFORE.

Not to mention the Leopold radio interview which was posted by kpete (who posts very good material), where Leopold stated that the Target Letter had been in Rove/Luskin's hand for A MONTH.

Libby may be something to look into, but another case altogether.

[H2O Man]

40. My question remains:

How would you intend to "prove" if or when Mr. Rove's lawyer got the letter? Saying "it will come out" seems less specific than a meaningful challenge to a bet should be based upon. The question about Mr. Libby's situation would perhaps indicate how difficult that "proof" would be to produce.

[Maddy McCall]

44. Surely proof exists. Are you implying that Leopold wrote his...

articles without having tangible proof?

If he has no tangible proof that a target letter was sent--and tangible proof in my profession usually consists of a xerox of a document, not hearsay in the department hallways--maybe people should not put so much faith in his reporting.

The OP said that he's allow firedoglake to judge this challenge--it's up to Will to agree or not to agree.

What's your stake in this, that you want to set up the terms of the challenge?

[H2O Man]

51. Can you tell me

what exactly Mr. Leopold wrote that you are referring to?

[symbolman]

53. His articles on Truthout

first one dated April 26th, unless it's been "updated", tho I believe my wife has a screen shot, not sure, and the one directly after that where the Target Letter is 'inferred' and intergrated as a Known Fact in the second one, as if there was no doubt..

Raw Story actually updated their site at the same time and said there was No Target Letter, tho some people were querying Will Pitt as to how his was an exclusive when RS had virtully the same "article" on their site at the same time.. remember that quite clearly.

I'll find them in the morning and link them here.. too late/early in the morn here for me, haven't been to bed yet and it's nearly 5am.. I'll get some sleep and my wife should be up with my new little son early while I saw some logs.

But Like I said, they should still be right there on TO, with Will standing behind them 100% as he recently repeated on the Huge "scoop" filled up with so many ecstatic people. Who I hope will not be dissapointed again, tho they don't seem to have been disapointed before when Rove was to be Indicted over and over again.

[H2O Man]

55. I was speaking to Maddy.

You need to go catch up on some sleep.

Maddy asked me a few questions, and I am hoping that we can clarify any issues that are causing the confusion. I have the Truthout articles in question. I am not at all confused about exactly what Jason wrote, and what he didn't write.

[symbolman]

15. I believe that the facts will come out

and that Fitz will have documented somewhere if and when a Target Letter was sent - I suggested firedoglake as the folks to make the call, they are legals and have impressed me with their coverage, both up front and legal..

I'm sure there's a way to find out.

Do you have any ideas?

[H2O Man]

19. An idea:

let's look at Mr. Libby. I'm curious if you can tell me if, or when, his attorneys may have gotten such a letter from Mr. Fitzgerald? And let's look at what standard can be used to determine what, if any answer there is to that simple question.

[mikelewis]

28. We could simply call Rove...

Fitz can't talk so the only way to confirm the "letter" would be from the defense or a leak from the prosecution. So far, this investigation has been kept tighter than the lid on a pickle jar by the Prosecution so maybe Rove might offer up the info. To my knowledge there's no way of confirming this letter's existence unless confirmation comes from the defense. Maybe Rove could help settle this bet.

(Of course, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a response)

[symbolman]

33. It will all come out

at some point and when it does one way or another if I am wrong I will donate 1000 dollars to the DU.

It ain't gonna be proven to me by a Leopold article tho, I will assure you of that. :)

[DoYouEverWonder]

16. It is possible that Rove has already been indicted

but that the indictment was put under seal for any number of reasons.

There is definitely a sealed affidavit but I don't know enough about such things to know what that implies.

[Mr_Spock]

61. That was my first thought

I don't know why, but for some reason I want to believe that this is the case.

[BlackVelvet04]

20. right.....

"I'm frankly sick of the weekly Leoplod "ROVE TO BE INDICTED NEXT WEEK" threads which take up space for other important issues."

Yes, we definitely want more room for the important threads entitled: "Pickles looks terrible" "caption this" "Impeach bush now" "I'm fed up".

[symbolman]

24. So you agree

that there should be more discussion, for instance there were plenty of threads on the NSA subject, where are they now.. I am personally just as interested in the NSA bugging my phone as Rove getting Indicted.

Does it matter to you WHEN they bugged your phone? Or would it be okay for them to tell you last week, the week before, last year, whatever we feel like telling you..

You would want to know WHEN something happened, hence the truth being important.

and yes some threads should go to the lounge but that's not up to me.

[BlackVelvet04]

31. Yes, I do agree.......

but I think there are a lot more annoying things than the Rove posts. The NSA thing is one of the most important issues I've read about in a while, so YES I do care WHEN they bugged my phone, and I care even more that they somehow feel they have the right to bug my phone.

I read more than I post and try not to vomit my emotions all over the message board.

Don't mind me, I'm just grouchy this morning and broke my own rule.

[symbolman]

49. No harm done

I'm on my WAY TO BED and grouchy too.. middle of the pacific, with whales jumping around, palm trees, flowers in the air, azure beaches, and I'm bitching about whether something is true or not..

yeah, something wrong with me alright, I must be a dinosaur - fast and loose and short attentions spans is where it's all at now..

Might as well herd us old guys back into the Old people camps and feed us LSD in our oatmeal all day long :)

Great movie by the way if you've ever seen it.. off to bed now, have a good day now that you're up :)

[Kelvin Mace]

36. To quote Theodore Strurgeon

"90% of everything is crap."

I actually thing we do a bit better than those numbers, but such is life. We do get some insightful analysis of news and events from some folks, occasionally some originaly reporting, but we also get tons of speculation, some pretending to be reporting.

[Maddy McCall]

46. And "Fitzmas" has now turned into "Fitzmorial Day."

This speculation has been going on since before Thanksgiving.

[Me.]

23. I'd Be Willing To Chip In On The Pitt Side

I have a spare $10. sitting on my desk, if we make the parameters "on or before" rather than "ON OR ABOUT April 26th" Sources have a funny way of covering their backs. They deliver the nugget, Rove got a letter, and then the details become funny. Is the source covering their back or did they assume because they just heard it, it just happened? Five trips to the GJ makes me think there was more than, "we might/possibly/are considering/might just think about indicting your client" going on here.

*shadow government*

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

25. Thank you Symbolman. I saw the post with Leopold's article when Will first

posted it, before it apparently has taken on a life of its own. I read what he had to say, knowing from experience now to take what Leopold has said with the proverbial grain of salt, and shook my head and thought it not worth my effort to get involved with the thread. Even though I dispise Rove, and hope that Leopold got it right, I will believe Rove's indictment when Patrick Fitzgerald gets out in front of the public to announce it, and not a moment before then.

[symbolman]

27. Welcome

and if Leopold DID get it right then the DU gets a Thousand dollars from me and an apology, I think that's completely fair.

Appreciate your post, I don't expect to have much skin left by morning :)

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

38. It's going to get pretty hot here and I wish you the best, and yes, DU

will be the winner (if Will takes up your challenge), regardless.

Peace :)

[Kingofalldems]

42. I posted a couple warnings last night about this

Why would repubs feed info to a guy who works for a liberal blog? I don't doubt the guy had sources but the whole thing could be a trick designed to embarrass the left. I hope I am wrong.

[seabeyond]

32. i, on the other hand, dont know what the f* yawl are talking about

cuase i have long since quit reading htreads that this is going to happen or that is going to happen. i wait for a this happened. so i havent been in any of the rove threads

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

35. Wise move! Will's thread title was so intriguing I couldn't help clicking

on it. Once I read it, I decided not to participate for the very reason why you didn't even click. :)

[DemonFighterLives]

29. i understand the need for facts

It is all about the scoop.
Rove has to be indicted or cop a plea deal- he is too deeply involved.
When it happens, I'll be ready. :toast:
:donut: :popcorn:

[Kelvin Mace]

34. This sounds like a perfectly reasonable challenge

to me.

I do not see why anyone would be offended, but then, some folk get offended for the strangest reasons. :)

[bigtree]

39. you've managed to make this even more interesting symbolman

:popcorn:

[symbolman]

45. More popcorn

seems to be in order.. you've got a Bald Eagle to feed after all :)

Colbert would be proud of your pic...

thanks for your participation, love your sig line as well

[bigtree]

54. Colbert is very clever. He may manage to discredit every jingoistic

prop the right has in their arsenal. Fascinating effort that.

Eagles. Close to the 'Creator' in creation stories of folks indigenous to our country. Maybe more important than I can write of. Important to me. ;-)

War. The wars are the reason for my vigil here at DU. Somehow, this board has everything that I need to keep my head in the issues of the day, develop responses, and get feedback. It's frustrating most times, but I think that's just a reflection of the disparate views and motivations here, which, in many ways, resemble our complicated society in the confusion of motivations and views.

Mostly, I just hope our efforts here can save some lives. I think that's the goal of the majority here. That's more than enough for me to feel welcome, despite the differences.

I think your query and challenge can be extremely productive, even if all you manage is more light on the process. That's where I think our democracy lies. In the process, in the sharing of the burdens and responsibilities, and in the accountability.

best of luck to all of us

[northamericancitizen]

41. This challenge seems fair enough

I agree about the "necessity" of tangible facts so the Truth could not be questioned or guessed anymore. (related to this case)

Imagine the reactions of anger/despair if next week Fitz was to announced the indictment of an other medium fish...

Emotional roller-coasters can make many people sick.

[jarab]

43. Read your take with great interest, and ...

I'm always anxious to consider all opinions .... in General Discussion, that is.
Now, when the "conjecture" occasionally clogs up the Latest Breaking News forum, that's another matter to be taken slightly more seriously. As a matter of fact, that could be the "real" story.
Wonder why we don't have a 500-post thread on this "scoop" in LBN?! That is "news" by definition; this forum is merely "discussion" - anything goes.
I do enjoy your in-your-face rebuttals, symbolman. Quite refreshing, indeed.
...O...

[madrchsod]

47. we will see what the grand jury returns when fitzgerald

releases their report. they are under no obligation to agree with his recommendations so it seems to me no one knows what charges will be brought other than the grand jury and fitzgerald. anything else is pure speculation or disinformation from those who have an interest in this case.
i`ve been involved in this kind of crap and the only time one knows what is going to happen is when the prosecutor gives one the hands you the charges.

[symbolman]

48. It's 4am where I live

and it's been a full day (searching for "truthiness"), and I must get a few hours of sleep.. anyone want to kick this for Will it's appreciated, or post your thoughts on the importance of the right being made WRONG with our facts, which I've seen in action..

I've used to Truth on television appearances in such a way as to coin a phrase of my own, a "Rovian Moment" - where I had the Right wing CORNERED and they had NO escape except by telling the god's TRUTH, and it kills them to do that..

It's a very powerful thing.

I'll get some sleep and check back, I believe the whole story will come out in reputable sources, like firedoglake and there will be no doubt as to who should donate to the DU and it will be a pleasure to help this great site, even if I am proved wrong.

Let's also agree to being more civil on this board, that's a challenge you should make to yourself.. "How can I answer this asshole without insulting everyone else and still be RIGHT, but give him a little 'out' so people think I'm cool?"

Okay, so I'm up too late.

There's the offer. Ready when you are Will.

[many a good man]

50. I'm withholding judgment on Leopold and his sources

And think we all should wait until the truth comes out. If he's been had it will do terrible damage to his reputation and to Truthout. But we just don't know the facts yet. I'm keeping an open mind and my mouth shut to avoid fractious contention.

If he turns out to be right, or even 90% right, he will have cemented his place as one of the greatest investigative journalists of our time.

[katinmn]

52. Thank you. You bring up many important points in your post

There is an issue that is sort of standing to the side of the latest truthout report on Rove.

It is the growing movement to copy Republican tactics to win hearts, minds and races.

That whole argument of "trust us, we know what we're doing" and "you just don't understand the PROCESS" and "I'll eat shit to get a Dem majority" is manipulative and condescending. That's why I will always support political outsiders who are leveling with people on where they stand. The establishment of our side is emulating the entrenched of their side.

I don't abide by the win-at-any-costs strategy I see so many endorsing. We need to raise standards, not lower them. Otherwise we will continue to get what we've always gotten.

[symbolman]

57. Thank YOU

I've been sitting here worrying that we just might get the Left Wing media that we allow, like the old saying,"You get the President or Govt that you deserve.." (of course Diebold changed all that :) ===

I just know for a fact that they can be beaten with Honesty, Integrity and Truth, seen it happen over and over, and it's one thing to rip a page from their book and use it against them, quite another to use their manual, at which point if we become as corrupt as they are, there IS NO MEDIA at all..

OR Left Wing. Might as well believe in the tooth fairy when you lose your adult teeth :)

If you don't have money, get some manners and you can still go far.. if you don't have big bucks and a research team, them find ONE nugget of truth and the Public will eat out of your hand.. if they don't trust YOU anymore than they trust the RIGHT, then it's ALL OVER.

appreciate your comments :)

[Name removed]

56. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

58. With All Due Respect, This Is Immature And Plain Stupid

T.O. has been as accurate as any source I can find, and Will Pitt is one of the most valuable posters we have here. Threads like this are nothing but bitter and should be done via PM, if at all. They do no good posting publicly.

[symbolman]

60. There is nothing bitter about finding out if a writer is not being truthfu

and if you value Will Pitt above all the other posters on this board I find that very puzzling.

I don't believe in Celebrity Status, or that it allows anyone to abuse someone asking a civil question.

I sincerely hope that Will Changes his mind and accepts this challenge which would be a great boon financially to the DU, and if these are Public Figures, both Will and Leopold then they need to be able to handle questions from others.

[Spazito]

59. Larry Johnson doesn't seem to have the same feelings you do

on the credibility of Jason Leopold and I will take Larry Johnson's view on Jason's credibility any time although I didn't need Larry Johnson's affirmation to believe Jason it IS nice to see it.

http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/05/frog_march_at_t.html

[Gregorian]

62. United, we stand. Divided, we fall.

Your post was valuable to me. You're right in that I just believe everything that some people say. But some people are believable. You and Will are two such people.

I don't have a problem with this challenge, if the effect is to keep us in line with the truth.

I think a PM to Will would have established a willingness to play along. By doing it in public, first, there was a risk of public rejection. And I can see above that that just happened. I'm sorry.


To Will and Symbolman- Please remain united. You are both valuable, bright, and needed.

[gulliver]

63. I think this is a rather brilliant idea. A truth bond.

I'm not a big fan of the ironically named Truthout. But if Pitt put $1,000 behind Leopold, I might start to think Leopold has some credibility.

What if Judith Miller had been forced to post a "truth bond" of, say, $1,000,000? What if insurance companies had to back author truth bonds?

It's an interesting mechanism for de-noising the system.

[Midlodemocrat]

64. Locking.

Please do not call out other DUers.

Thank you.

DU Moderator.