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Know your BFEE: Lies are the Currency of their Realm

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 02:46 PM
Original message
Know your BFEE: Lies are the Currency of their Realm
Edited on Fri May-12-06 02:51 PM by Octafish
"He who controls the past, controls the future; and he who controls the present, controls the past." George Orwell, 1984, Motto of the Ministry of Truth.

Thats why TRUTH matters. Thats why History matters. Thats why DU and DUers who give a damn matter.

Now more than ever, our nation needs the Truth -- the facts about Bush, about the BFEE, about what theyre doing. And what theyve done.



Heres one thing to remember: The BFEE and their supporters have worked long and hard to discredit the Kennedys and their supporters at every opportunity.

Case in point: President John F. Kennedy and his decision to avoid war in southeast Asia.

So, the BFEE have done all they can to rewrite government records to make the Kennedys look bad. They use television, newspapers, books to shape public awareness and form a negative impression of the Kennedys.

Make them forget that fellah.

Heres why: Kennedy not only was a Liberal. He was a Liberal Democrat who wanted to use the full power of government to make a better nation for ALL Americans. A veteran and war hero, JFK wanted to avoid WWIII and did all he could to preserve the peace. JFK believed in the power of the United States to make this a better world for ALL people.

Thats pretty red-white-and-blue stuff, eh? Members of the BFEE hate it all. First, social programs cost them money. Second, open discussion of the truth costs them power. Third, a fully functioning democracy denies them status.



Former CIA operative and Bay of Pigs veteran E. Howard Hunt was hired into the Nixon White House to plug leaks. As part of his job description, before he got busted for his role in the Watergate break-in, Hunt was given the job to change the historical record to reflect that President Kennedy had ordered the assassination of South Vietnamese president Diem. So, Hunt forged a couple of documents:




WATERGATE CHRONOLOGY

EXCERPT...

THE WATERGATE CRIME LIST:

EXCERPT...

3. "Dirty Tricks"

Like the "plumbers," the "Dirty Tricks" team was set up in the White House for the purpose of damaging and embarrassing key Democrats. In fact, the Democrats didn't need any help--they were doing just fine by themselves. The activities ranged from ordering pizzas delivered to Democratic campaign offices to forging letters that were used to discredit and embarrass Democratic leaders like Senator Edmund Muskie and Henry Jackson. Using materials he culled from the Pentagon Papers, E. Howard Hunt forged cables accusing President John Kennedy of ordering the toppling and assassination of Vietnam's Prime Minister Diem in 1963. (The assassination certainly was aided by the CIA, but JFK's direct involvement has never been proven). Hunt then tried unsuccessfully to plant these cables with major news magazines. An "enemies list" was created, an extensive collection of opposition politicians, entertainers, newsmen, and other prominent public figures deemed disloyal by the White House. The list was used to target the people that the White House wanted to "screw" through the use of selected federal agencies. The list included Jane Fonda, Bill Cosby, and CBS newsman Daniel Schorr.

Source: http://cas.memphis.edu/~sherman/chronowatergate.htm





Nice, work, E. Howard. But he wasnt alone. Others in the government had been hard at work pinning the murder of Diem on the innocent JFK. Gen. Edward Lansdale, for instance:



An excerpt from the book "The CIA, Vietnam, and the Plot to Assassinate John F. Kennedy

Kennedy by L. Fletcher Prouty
Birch Lane Press, 1992 - hard cover, 1st edition

EXCERPT

The Pentagon Papers

EXCERPT

One of the most important narratives of this event was written by Edward G. Lansdale in his autobiography In the Midst of Wars. Few Americans, if any, knew Ngo Dinh Diem and the situation in Vietnam from 1954-68 better than Ed Lansdale. He wrote:

As the prisons filled up with political opponents, as the older nationalist parties went underground, with the body politics fractured, Communist political cadre became active throughout South Vietnam, recruiting followers for action against a government held together mainly by the Can Lao elite rather than by popular support. The reaped whirlwind finally arrived in November 1963, when the nationalist opposition erupted violently, imprisoning many of the Can Loa and killing Diem, Nhu, and others. It was heartbreaking to be an onlooker to this tragic bit of history.

It was some time before the news became known that Diem had fled to Cholon and been captured and killed there. This news was flashed around the world; this was the story that everyone heard. The public never heard of the planned flight to Europe that the Kennedy administration had arranged for him.

Thus it was that the file of routine cable traffic between Washington and Saigon eventually became known with the release and publication of the Pentagon Papers. This is how it happened that Howard Hunt was able to locate certain top-level messages to and from the White House and Ambassador Lodge in Saigon that contained information referring to "highest authority"--the cable traffic code for President Kennedy.

None of these messages contained any reference to a plot to kill President Diem and his brother or came even close to it. Concealed within these messages were carefully worded phrases that gave Ambassador Lodge the information he needed in order to direct all participants into action and to begin the careful removal of the two brothers to Europe by commercial aircraft.

According to information that came out during the Watergate hearings, those files that had been forged to smear President Kennedy were put in Hunt's White House safe, where they remained until discovered by investigators later.

SNIP

There is much about this episode that has become important upon review. There are those who have been so violently opposed to Jack Kennedy and all that he stood for that they have stooped to all kinds of sordid activities to smear him while he was alive, to attack his brother Bobby while he was still alive, and to hound Sen. Edward Kennedy to this day. Nixon's gratuitous reference to Kennedy's "complicity in the murder of Diem" after a decade of silence on that subject speaks for itself. The efforts of Howard Hunt and Chuck Colson (both employees of the White House at the time) to dig up old files in order to besmirch the memory of President Kennedy provide another example.

SNIP

http://www.maebrussell.com/Articles%20and%20Notes/Penta...





Fodder Units.



Killer Political Instincts

By Linda Minor
April 14, 2005
Sanders Research Associates Ltd.
Issues & Answers

EXCERPT

Between 1968 and 1970, Chuck Colson and E. Howard Hunt, both alumni of Brown UniversityHunt in the class of 1940 and Colson a 1953 gradwere seeing each other on a regular basis. Hunt had become a naval officer and an agent of the Office of Strategic Services from 1943 until its demise. A Guggenheim fellowship then paid him to travel in Mexico while writing his first novel (later a best-seller), before landing a job on the staff of Ambassador Averell Harriman, then a partner of Prescott Bush at Brown Brothers, Harriman.

In 1948 Hunt left Harrimans employ, recruited into the Central Intelligence Agency by Frank Wisner. In the meantime, he had married one of Harrimans secretaries, who had spent the war years in Bern, Switzerland in the Treasury Departments Hidden Assets Division, looking for hidden Nazi assets. Coincidentally, or not, it was Bern where later C.I.A. chairman Allen Dulles spent the war years. Hunt thus had very powerful references on his resume!

By the end of April 1970 all details fell in place for Hunts retirement from the C.I.A., and his employment one day later at Mullen & Company. According to Hunt in his autobiography, Undercover, he got the job through the CIAs placement service, and was told by the placement officer that the Mullen firm had cooperated with CIA in the past.

After Hunt was installed at his new office, Mullen sold his firm to Robert F. Bennett. Though miffed by the change in management, Hunt was stroked by Colson, who only a few months later telephoned him with the opportunity of a lifetime, to work at the White House. In July 1971 Hunt was hired to work on Colsons staff as a consultant on a part-time basis until the end of the 1972 election, while still maintaining his position with Mullen & Company.

SOURCE:

http://www.sandersresearch.com/Sanders/NewsManager/Show...






Heres where things get really BFEE-ish. Averell Harriman, business associate of Prescott Bush (a Senator, father and grandfather to the two presidents Bush), appears to have acted as the catalyst for Americas involvement in the disastrous Vietnam War. One wouldnt know it from reading the official and officially and unofficially sanctioned histories, but Harriman seems to be the guy who OK'd the assassination of Diem:



The Secret History of the CIA

by Joseph Trento:

EXCERPT

Who changed the coup into the murder of Diem, Nhu and a Catholic priest accompanying them? To this day, nothing has been found in government archives tying the killings to either John or Robert Kennedy. So how did the tools and talents developed by Bill Harvey for ZR/RIFLE and Operation MONGOOSE get exported to Vietnam? Kennedy immediately ordered (William R.) Corson to find out what had happened and who was responsible. The answer he came up with: On instructions from Averell Harriman. The orders that ended in the deaths of Diem and his brother originated with Harriman and were carried out by Henry Cabot Lodges own military assistant.

Having served as ambassador to Moscow and governor of New York, W. Averell Harriman was in the middle of a long public career. In 1960, President-elect Kennedy appointed him ambassador-at-large, to operate with the full confidence of the president and an intimate knowledge of all aspects of United States policy. By 1963, according to Corson, Harriman was running Vietnam without consulting the president or the attorney general.

The president had begun to suspect that not everyone on his national security team was loyal. As Corson put it, Kenny ODonnell (JFKs appointments secretary) was convinced that McGeorge Bundy, the national security advisor, was taking orders from Ambassador Averell Harriman and not the president. He was especially worried about Michael Forrestal, a young man on the White House staff who handled liaison on Vietnam with Harriman.

At the heart of the murders was the sudden and strange recall of Saigon Station Chief Jocko Richardson and his replacement by a no-name team barely known to history. The key member was a Special Operations Army officer, John Michael Dunn, who took his orders, not from the normal CIA hierarchy but from Harriman and Forrestal.

According to Corson, John Michael Dunn was known to be in touch with the coup plotters, although Dunns role has never been made public. Corson believes that Richardson was removed so that Dunn, assigned to Ambassador Lodge for special operations, could act without hindrance.

SOURCE:

The Secret History of the CIA. Joseph Trento. 2001, Prima Publishing. pp. 334-335.



WHY GO THROUGH ALL THIS BOTHER?

TO BLAME JFK FOR VIETNAM.




Check out Nixons own words, courtesy of the White House audio taping system:



Presidential Tapes: Nixon Wanted to Show Up JFK
Here are some newly released Nixon tapes, which were kept secret for years on the grounds of national security. The tapes were released last week by the National Archives, and transcripts of them were prepared by the privately financed Nixon Presidential library in Yorba Linda, Calif.
July 1, 1971, the Oval Office. The president sees a silver lining in the publication of the Pentagon Papers, which undermined support for the war:

Nixon: Murder of Diem -- Kennedy decided to go forward and got us involved, and it shows that Kennedy was the one who got us in the damn war. We got the Kennedys in this thing now.

Oct. 8, 1971, the Oval Office. John Ehrlichman, the domestic policy chief, suggests that presidential aide Charles Colson be given the job of digging up embarrassing files:

Ehrlichman: Suppose we get all the Diem stuff and supposing there's something we can really hang Teddy ((Kennedy)) or the Kennedy clan with. I'm going to want to put that in Colson's hands.

Nixon: Yep.

Ehrlichman: And we're going to really run with it.

Aug. 11, 1971, the Oval Office. The president and Colson discuss possible congressional hearings in the wake of the Pentagon Papers' release:

Colson: Can you imagine Averell Harriman ((ambassador at large under Kennedy)) before that committee, explaining why he didn't get Diem out of Vietnam when he had the chance?

Nixon: I want that out. I want him before the committee. ... I said that he was murdered, that they murder. ... I knew what the bastards were up to.

Sept. 18, 1971, the Oval Office:

Nixon: We've got all these people who were involved in this -- and they're all, in one way or another, involved in the assassination of Diem. ... The Diem incident is perhaps the best ((unintelligible)), because it involves Harriman, who is ((Sen. Edmund )) Muskie's adviser ((in the 1972 presidential election campaign)), and it involves Kennedy. ...

Ehrlichman: ((Richard)) Helms ((director of Central Intelligence)) would have a pluperfect fit.

Nixon: That doesn't bother me a bit. We owe Helms nothing. He owes us everything -- we kept him on. And we're going to let the CIA take a whipping on this. That doesn't bother me a bit and I'm not going to hear that argument from Henry ((Kissinger, the national security adviser)) or anyone else. This Diem incident's got to get out. It's just got to get out. ... I want the story of the Diem thing, everything in it -- I want it by the end of next week. That's an order. They will get it to me. I will personally ((tell)) the whole story -- I intend to have it -- on the Diem incident. ... The entire file on the Diem incident.

Ehrlichman: There's some CIA stuff on the Bay of Pigs, apparently, that they will die first before they give us that, I understand. There's also some other stuff, some internal stuff over there --

Ehrlichman: -- that we know about, but getting to it is like that big black block in Mecca, you know. ... If we could just get a friend in the hierarchy over there who would let us in. ...

Nixon: I consider it a top priority that I want the Diem story. Also on the Bay of Pigs thing, just -- I want an order to Helms and ((deputy CIA director Robert)) Cushman that for my purposes, not for public release, I am to have the Bay of Pigs story. Now that's an order. And I expect it in one week, or I want his resignation on my desk. Put it as coldly as that. The Bay of Pigs story, the total story. Tell him I know a lot about it myself. But I've got to have it -- just because I'll be questioned about it myself, and I want to be able to know what to say. The Bay of Pigs story and the Diem story. ... The whole folderol -- the way it happened, I've just got to know. ... I will not brook any opposition on this. I've screwed around long enough. I've told Henry ((Kissinger)) and he has really dropped the ball on this.

March 28, 1973, the Executive Office Building. Despite Nixon's insistence, secret CIA and State Department files on the Diem assassination and the Bay of Pigs are not made public. The President's frustration continues for months, and years:

Nixon: Did you get the word on the declassification of everything over 10 years? That's got to move fast. And not only ((unintelligible)) but the other one's important -- on the Bay of Pigs. Just get the damn thing out, will you? That's going to be quite a story -- a few little morsels. Do you agree?

Haldeman: Yeah.

Nixon: Also gets into the Diem murder and the whole Diem thing. Now the war is over and we're not going to take Henry's crap. Henry's a little bit involved in that himself. That's why he doesn't want some of it declassified.

May 13, 1973, the White House. A telephone conversation between the president and Gen. Alexander Haig, his military adviser. The president, still harping on Diem and the Bay of Pigs, mentions the White House operative E. Howard Hunt, who fabricated diplomatic cables and documents implicating Kennedy:

Nixon: I think we should just declassify everything going back -- everything that's 10 years old, and declassify the whole Bay of Pigs, plus the Diem thing. Goddammit, you know, that's -- that can only be helpful. Now you say, "Well, it'll stir things up in Vietnam." The hell with it. You don't like that, huh?

Haig: I'm not sure, sir. I think it's a thing that should be considered. ...

Nixon: Doggone it, I'd like to do it, because -- look, I have not looked at the Bay of Pigs stuff, but I know there's stuff in there that makes ((McGeorge)) Bundy ((Kennedy's national security adviser)) look like a goddamn -- uh, you know, terrible. ... Goddammit, you know what happened is, they set in motion a chain of events which resulted in the murder of Diem.

Haig: Oh, there's no question about that. None. ... In fact, you know, the vice president's aide was there. He was Lodge's assistant ((when Henry Cabot Lodge was ambassador to South Vietnam)). I talked to him some years ago about that.

Nixon: What'd he say?

Haig: He said ... the poor guy called Lodge on the phone, and said, "They're going to kill me, for God's sake, send some Marine guards up here."
Nixon: This is a good juicy thing to get out. ... I mean, that was what Hunt was looking into, you know, and screwed it up. But the point is, there's a hell of a record there. Now, somebody -- have you got some trusted person that can look at that goddamn thing, and let's declassify it. It's 10 years old, huh?

Haig: Yes, I can get somebody to do it.

May 14, 1973, the Executive Office Building:

Nixon: I want the Diem, and the Bay of Pigs totally declassified, and I want it done in 48 hours. Now you tell Haig that. It'll drive him up the wall, too. But I want it done. Do you understand? This is 10 years old! Declassify it. We've got a couple of ((expletive)) working on this thing. Do you see any reason why it shouldn't be declassified, Ron?

Ronald Ziegler, press secretary: No, I see no reason.

Nixon: I want them to get off -- now, Haig is disturbed because of the ironies involved in the murder of Diem. Now listen, this government murdered him. I know it and you know it too.

Here are links:

http://www.anusha.com/nixontap.htm



Gee. Nixon. Bush. Hunt. Harriman.

Heres a stunner. Hunt worked as press secretary to Harriman in Paris after WW II. Before then? Harriman worked with Prescott Bush and Allen Dulles in arming Hitler.

For the BFEE, lies are a medium of exchange. And the bigger the lie, the more they can exchange -- read: "Steal." In America, they've stole Treasury. Justice. Defense. Democracy. Your Future.




Jebthro in '08!


Small world. Big wars.

AMERICAS PSYCHO
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. kick
Nixon - he sure likes to threaten. No one will ever honor his presidency.
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90-percent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Nice work
To quote the cave man in the Geico TV commercials:

"Next time why don't you do a little research?"

Good work, Mr. neon Meat dream of an....

-85% Jimmy
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. Harriman helped Bush get his button and the whole Skull and Bones thing.
Domo aragato, Mostly Jimmy.



Besides the startling resemblance to my brethren of Neanderthal heritage, I do think that when the government takes its citizens for granted, the government no loner represents the will of the people. It is beholden to something else.



Bush - Nazi Dealings Continued Until 1951 - Federal Documents

By John Buchanan and Stacey Michael
from The New Hampshire Gazette Vol. 248, No. 3, November 7, 2003

After the seizures in late 1942 of five U.S. enterprises he managed on behalf of Nazi industrialist Fritz Thyssen, Prescott Bush, the grandfather of President George W. Bush, failed to divest himself of more than a dozen "enemy national" relationships that continued until as late as 1951, newly-discovered U.S. government documents reveal.

Furthermore, the records show that Bush and his colleagues routinely attempted to conceal their activities from government investigators.

Bush's partners in the secret web of Thyssen-controlled ventures included former New York Governor W. Averell Harriman and his younger brother, E. Roland Harriman. Their quarter-century of Nazi financial transactions, from 1924-1951, were conducted by the New York private banking firm, Brown Brothers Harriman.

SNIP...

"The discovery of the Bush-Nazi documents raises new questions about the role of Prescott Bush and his influential business partners in the secret emigration of Nazi war criminals, which allowed them to escape justice in Germany," says Bob Fertik, co-founder of Democrats.com and an amateur 'Nazi hunter.' "It also raises questions about the importance of Nazi recruits to the CIA in its early years, in what was called Operation Paperclip, and Prescott Bush's role in that dark operation."

Fertik and others, including former Justice Department Nazi war crimes prosecutor John Loftus, a Constitutional attorney in Miami, and a former Veterans Administration official, believe Prescott Bush and the Harrimans should have been tried for treason.

CONTINUED...

http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_acti...



WARMONGERING,
MASS MURDERING
TRAITOR,
THE SON OF A
WARMONGERING,
MASS MURDERING
TRAITOR.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Congressman Richard NIXON claimed to have employed Jack RUBY
This stuff drives people crazy because it sounds so nuts.



The thing is, it's the truth.



Richard Nixon's Greatest Cover-Up:
His Ties to the Assassination of President Kennedy


by Don Fulsom

Seared into the memories of all Americans who lived through the assassination of President John F. Kennedy is exactly where they were on November 22, 1963. Yet private citizen Richard Nixon, who believe it or not was in Dallas, could not recall this fact in a post-assassination interview with the FBI.

The interview dealt with an apparently false claim by Marina Oswald that her husband alleged Kennedy assassin Lee Harvey Oswald had targeted Nixon for death during an earlier trip to Dallas. A Feb. 28, 1964 FBI report on the interview said Nixon "advised that the only time he was in Dallas, Texas, during 1963 was two days prior to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy."

SNIP...

Giancana's half-bother Chuck and nephew Sam claimed in their 1992 book Double Cross that the Mafia don had a long, warm, and mutually rewarding relationship with Nixon that dated back to the 1940s. In those times, Giancana was helping Chicago Syndicate boss Anthony Accardo consolidate the city's rackets and gambling operations, and Nixon was a freshman congressman from California. In recounting for his relatives a big favor the congressman did for Giancana back then, the gangster established a direct link between Nixon and a Chicago hoodlum who later moved to Texas and went on to shoot Lee Harvey Oswald: "Nixon's done me some favors, all right, got us some highway contracts, worked with the unions and overseas. And we've helped him and his CIA buddies out, too. Shit, he even helped my guy in Texas, (Jack) Ruby, get out of testifying in front of Congress back in forty-seven By sayin' Ruby worked for him."

A 1947 memo, found in 1975 by a scholar going through a pile of recently released FBI documents, supports Giancana's contention. In the memo, addressed to a congressional committee investigating organized crime, an FBI assistant states: "It is my sworn testimony that one Jack Rubenstein of Chicago ... is performing information functions for the staff of Congressman Richard Nixon, Republican of California. It is requested Rubenstein not be called for open testimony in the aforementioned hearings." (Later in 1947, Rubenstein moved to Dallas and shortened his last name.) The FBI subsequently called the memo a fake, but the reference service Facts on File considers it authentic.

Undercover work for the young Congressman Nixon would have been in keeping with Ruby's history as a police tipster and government informant. In 1950, Ruby gave closed-door testimony to Estes Kefauver's special Senate committee investigating organized crime. Committee staffer Luis Kutner later described Ruby as "a syndicate lieutenant who had been sent to Dallas to serve as a liaison for Chicago mobsters." In exchange for Ruby's testimony, the FBI is said to have eased up on its probe of organized crime in Dallas. In 1959, Ruby became an informant for the FBI.

CONTINUED...

http://crimemagazine.com/03/richardnixon,1014.htm



Nixon's reputation is lower than a whale turd.

Only a few Americans I know are lower.

Here's one:
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Turn CO Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. K&R. Bookmarked, as always.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. The BFEE got rich and powerful by backing the right org.
The stuff about the BFEE can be so unbelievable.

Thank goodness there's a paper trail and the Internets to share it.

Here's the story about how all their NAZI ideas and NAZI pals got here, written by someone who likes George W Bush:



Former Federal Prosecutor John Loftus confirms the Bush-Nazi scandal

Copyright October 31. 2003

EXCERPT...

After WW II, the Dulles brothers' shell game deceived a gullible and war-weary world. The "neutral" Dutch bank reclaimed their German assetts as "stolen" by the Nazis, and the whole merry fraud continued. Prescott Bush got his Union Bank back from the US Government in 1951, despite its seizure in 1942 as a Nazi front. Prescott Bush and father-in-law Walker were paid two shares worth about $1.5 million in 1951 dollars. It was a petty payoff for a job well done.

Nearly 4,000 shares (98% of the Union Bank holdings) were held by Roland Harriman in trust for the Rockefellers. That's about three billion in 1951 dollars, more than 30 billion dollars in todays money. Most of it was reinvested in post-war Germany where they made even more obscene profits. After all, Germany was just as cash starved after World War II as they were after World War I. It was just another cycle in the Robber Baron's spreadsheet. Everyone made money off the Holocaust, except of course the Jews and the Allied soldiers.

A few decades later things had quited down and all the Nazi money finally came home to Wall Street. By 1972, one of Rockfeller's assetts, the Chase Manhattan bank in New York, secretly owned 38% of the Thyssen company, according to internal Thyssen records in my custody. Not a bad payoff for the Robber Barons. The Auschwitz investment paid off handsomely. The Thyssen-Krupp corporation is now the wealthiest conglomerate in Europe. WWII is over. The Germans won.

Also in the 1970's, Brown Brothers Harriman, perhaps coincidentally, convinced the ever pliant New York State Banking Commision to issue a regulation permitting them to shred all their records for the Nazi period. The Robber Barons, unlike the Swiss bankers, knew how to cover their tracks.

There were, of course, exceptions. Von Kouewenhoven, director of the Dutch Bank, discovered the secret Thyssen-Nazi connection after the war, and foolishly went to New York to warn his old friend Prescott Bush. His body was found two weeks later. It was reported with a straight face that he died of a heart attack.

CONTINUED...

http://www.john-loftus.com/bush_nazi_scandal.asp



Odd what Loftus sees in Smirko McCokespoon. I don't find anything resembling kindness in any of their actions or words.
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Greeby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
4. Lets let Jack in on the conversation
Evening of Monday November 4th 1963. Three weeks before his own assassination, President Kennedy reflects on the South Vietnamese coup (partway through, the recording is interrupted by John-John and Caroline, who come into the office)

http://www.whitehousetapes.org/clips/1963_1104_jfk_viet...

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. Thank you for the JFK audio. I'd heard about his reaction...
Edited on Sat May-13-06 12:22 AM by Octafish
... but there is nothing like actually hear President Kennedy's voice describe the death of Diem and the coup -- the sadness, the shock -- as well as who was in favor of the coup and he named the names of those who wanted to go forward.

The presence of JFK's children also showed the actions of a great dad, a guy who put down his work to be fully engaged with his kids.

Then he returned to business, continuing to dictate his memo. His mind completely focused on the issue at hand. His voice able to logically continue his train of thought. His words illuminating the subtleties of statecraft.

Gee. It's been a long time since we had a President like that.

Thank you very much for that link and resource, Greeby.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #17
42. Not so very long ago. 1992-2000.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. Most of what we know concerning JFK and Vietnam came after 1992...
Then Major John S. Newman, an active-duty instructor at West Point, was researching the gap in the Pentagon Papers from around the transition between JFK and LBJ. Here's a great resource that has a lot of the Who's and What's. Let's use it to give the "What's for" to the BFEE...



1963 Vietnam Withdrawal Plans

Was there a Vietnam withdrawal plan in 1963? The answer is yes. What is at issue is not whether such plans had been created and initiated, but whether they were serious, i.e., whether the withdrawal would have continued in the face of a worsening situation in South Vietnam.

On October 11, 1963, Kennedy signed NSAM 263, initiating a withdrawal of 1,000 troops out of roughly 16,000 Americans stationed in Vietnam. Other documents, including planning documents from the spring of 1963, show that this was the first step in a planned complete withdrawal.

The controversy surrounds the fact that military reporting of the war effort in 1963 was decidedly rosy, and Kennedy made statements indicating that the positive outlook made withdrawal possible. Following the November deaths of South Vietnamese leader Ngo Dinh Diem and President Kennedy, reporting of the military situation in Vietnam took a turn for the worse. Does this then mean that Kennedy would have done as his successor LBJ did, and escalate the war in response?

John Newmans landmark 1991 book JFK & Vietnam argues that Kennedy knew that the military reporting was skewed, and intended to withdraw anyway. Other analyses by Peter Dale Scott and James Galbraith (son of Kennedy advisor John Kenneth Galbraith), and recent books including one by no less than Robert McNamara himself, support this view. On the other side are many Vietnam historians and also social critic Noam Chomsky, whose Rethinking Camelot is largely a rebuttal of this view.

CONTINUED W/DOCs and LINKs:http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/1963_Vietnam_...



BFEE LONE NUT
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DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
5. Operation 40

On 11th December (1959), Colonel J. C. King, chief of CIA's Western Hemisphere Division, sent a confidential memorandum to Allen W. Dulles, the director of the Central Intelligence Agency. King argued that in Cuba there existed a "far-left dictatorship, which if allowed to remain will encourage similar actions against U.S. holdings in other Latin American countries."

As a result of this memorandum Dulles established Operation 40. It obtained this name because originally there were 40 agents involved in the operation. Later this was expanded to 70 agents. The group was presided over by Richard Nixon. Tracy Barnes became operating officer of what was also called the Cuban Task Force. The first meeting chaired by Barnes took place in his office on 18th January, 1960, and was attended by David Atlee Phillips, E. Howard Hunt, Jack Esterline, and Frank Bender.

On 4th March, 1960, La Coubre, a ship flying a Belgian flag, exploded in Havana Bay. It was loaded with arms and ammunition that had been sent to help defend Cuba's revolution from its enemies. The explosion killed 75 people and over 200 were injured. Fabian Escalante, an officer of the Department of State Security (G-2), later claimed that this was the first successful act carried out by Operation 40.

One member, Frank Sturgis claimed: "this assassination group (Operation 40) would upon orders, naturally, assassinate either members of the military or the political parties of the foreign country that you were going to infiltrate, and if necessary some of your own members who were suspected of being foreign agents... We were concentrating strictly in Cuba at that particular time."

www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKoperation40.htm




This photograph was taken in a nightclub in Mexico City on 22nd January, 1963. It is believed that the men in the photograph are all members of Operation 40. Closest to the camera on the left is Felix Rodriguez. Next to him is Porter Goss and Barry Seal. Others in the picture are Alberto 'Loco' Blanco (3rd right) and Jorgo Robreno (4th right).

There is some dispute about who attempting to hide his face with his coat. According to John Simkin ( http:/ / www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk ) it is Tosh Plumlee and according Hopsicker ( http://www.madcowprod.com / ) it is Frank Sturgis.


Operation 40 and George H.W. Bush
Jim Marrs: During that time, during the time of the Bay of Pigs, while you were training and moving around in the Caribbean, No Name Key and all that, did you ever hear the name George Herbert Walker Bush?

James Files: Oh Yeah!

Jim Marrs: What was his role?

James Files: George Herbert Walker Bush. I don't know if, I think a lot of people are not going to believe this, but he worked for the CIA back as early as 1961 that I know of.

Jim Marrs: How did he work? What did he do?

James Files: I don't know all he did, but he did a lot of recruiting work. I know he was there at the beginning for what we called Group 40, a special operations group, Group 40. If you wonder what Group 40 was, an assassination group.

www.jfkmurdersolved.com/bush2.htm



Operation 40 and Howard Hughes
The Nazi Connection to the John F. Kennedy Assassination
Evidence of link between Nazis still in operation after World War II to the still unsolved murder of John F. Kennedy
by Mae Brussell

Chicago Mafia boss Sam Giancana was busy with more than his love life; he was hired to form assassination teams to go after Fidel Castro. The man who retained him was Robert Maheu, a former FBI and CIA operative. It was a classic cutoff. Maheu never mentioned that the CIA was behind it. He intimated to Giancana that wealthy Cuban exiles were providing the funds. This sounded plausible, since Maheu was Howard Hughes' right-hand man.

Giancana put his Los Angeles lieutenant, Johnny Roselli, in charge of the hit squads. In 1978 when the House Select Committee questioned him, Roselli hinted that his assignment was aimed at Kennedy as well as Castro. Shortly afterward, his body was found floating in an oil drum off the Florida coast. Giancana never got a chance to testify. He was shot to death in his Chicago home.

The Howard Hughes organization, used as a cover for the kill-Castro conspiracy, (Hughes thought it was a patriotic idea) has long retained Carl Byoir Associates as its public relations arm. Throughout the war Byoir represented nazi bankers and industrialists and the I.G. Farben interests. One of his clients was Ernest Schmitz, member of the I.G. Farben-Ilgner and the German American Board of Trade. His Information Services was subsidized by the nazi government. George Sylvester Viereck, editor of the German Library of Information, was also in business with Byoir. A lucrative Byoir client was the Frederick Flick Group. Flick, a Nuremberg defendant released by McCloy, was the single greatest power behind the nazi military muscle.

http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%20Articles/Na...


K&R BTW
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. Hughes. Nixon. Maheu. Roselli. Operation 40.
Regarding Tosh Plumlee versus Frank Sturgis in the Operation 40 get-together:





The eyes above look sleepy, but do match in terms of dark irises. The shape of the eye in other photos do match. Here, it's the ears that say to me "Fiorino"; please also note the bump of hair along the hairline over Sturgis' right eye.

Plumlee's story and claim to trying to prevent the assassination is, eh, interesting.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKplumlee.htm

Hughes 'invested' in Nixon. Maheu 'invested' in Roselli. These all wanted Fidel dead ASAP. When JFK said, "No., who knows what happened?

Jack Anderson was on to these turds.

Here's a thorough overview from a pair of real reporters working for Playboy (you must be 18):



The Puppet and the Puppetmasters

THE MAGIC BOX


an investigative report by Larry DuBois and Laurence Gonzales
Playboy.com

Hughes was extremely anxious to get himself into an alliance with the CIA that would protect him from investigation by other Government agencies.
-- ROBERT MAHEU


A CIA cover organization is a strange and very useful thing. It's like having a magic box. You can put things in and you can take things out. You can take things out that you never put in and you can put things in that will never come out. Or you can get into the box yourself and go away somewhere -- or perhaps ago away forever. If the box is large enough, you can put an entire country inside it and no one will ever know.

The Hughes organization is such a box, the biggest and most useful of its kind. According to information given to us by a highly placed intelligence source, there is nothing else like it in the world, as far as intelligence fronts go. It is no secret to most foreign governments, most of which stand in awe of its ineffable, elegant vastness. From within this magic box, an important part of the United States' covert intelligence operations emanate. But by 1971, it had begun to crack. So much had been put into the box that things were beginning to come out. The magic was fading.

Hughes's alliance with the agency started as early as 1949. Only two years after the CIA got its charter, it began giving contracts to Hughes.

April 1, 1975, The Washington Post reported, "Hughes Aircraft has been mentioned as a potential hotbed of interrelationships with the CIA." The New York Times on March 20, 1975, quoted high Government officials as saying the HAC had been building satellites for intelligence purposes for years and "employs a number of high-ranking CIA and military men." As early as 1960, Maheu had Hughes's blessing in taking on one of the agency's most sensitive assignments: the assassination of Fidel Castro. Maheu worked out several unsuccessful plots with gangsters Sam Giancana and Johnny Roselli.

The affinity between Hughes and the agency was natural: America's most secretive billionaire and the most secretive part of America's Government. In a way, Hughes was a kind of modern-day Leonardo da Vinci, an eccentric genius who pushed to the cutting edge of the 20th Century, whether in early talking movies or in space satellites. Just after his death was reported, Newsweek quoted a top-ranking Washington intelligence official as saying, "Hughes gravitated into areas that other people refused to go into or didn't believe in." HAC pioneered the synchronous-orbit satellite, built the first Early Bird satellite and the Surveyor spacecraft that made the first soft landing on the moon and sent pictures back to NASA in preparation for the manned moon shots. Without Hughes's signal-amplifying microwave tubes, pictures from Mars would have been impossible. HAC is responsible for three-dimensional radar that is used for tracking hundreds of planes simultaneously. And the world's first operating laser arced across the labs of HAC. Laser weapons are now one of the hottest topics within the Pentagon -- they may someday make nuclear weapons obsolete. The secrets of laser-weapon technology are so closely guarded that Pentagon insiders will discuss it only in state-of-the-art terms.

CONTINUED...

http://www.playboy.com/features/features/puppetmasters/...



OT in a way: Remember James Jesus Angleton got canned for his domestic spying operations?

Thanks for standing on the front line, DrDebug. You have never wavered, Patriot.

PSYCHO NAZI
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DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. The interesting thing about Tosh is that he is on the internet
Edited on Sat May-13-06 03:26 PM by DrDebug
He is a regular poster at spartacus messageboard and even though he cannot give specific details, he has admitted that he was a witness to the JFK assassination.


Plumlee claimed that in November, 1963, he was a co-pilot on a top secret flight supported by the CIA. Plumlee's flight left Florida on 21st November and stopped in New Orleans and Houston before reaching Dallas in the early morning hours of 22nd November. On board was Johnny Roselli. Plumlee testified that their assignment was to stop the planned assassination of John F. Kennedy. Plumlee also testified that in the Dealey Plaza (South Knoll) at the time of the assassination.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKplumlee.htm


It is interesting that even though most of the people involved were Operation 40, it was not an Operation 40 assignment, but it used a part of the original team with some additional fellas. As you may know Nixon's Plumbers were also mainly comprised of the Operation 40 staff.

And the interview where he admits to being present at the scene.

Q: Where were you on November 22, 1963?

A: I was observing the attempt on Kennedy's life. I was at Dealey Plaza on the South Knoll.

Q: Did you have occasion on that day to see John Roselli?

A: Yes, I did. I saw John Roselli. John Roselli was on board the flight coming out of Houston. We had taken a flight out of Tampa, Florida and went through New Orleans, New Orleans to Houston and Roselli had boarded the flight at Tampa, Florida, and he was staying at the Congress Inn the night before he boarded the flight. Our team flew out of West Palm Beach, a place called Lantana, and to Tampa and then Roselli and a couple of other people got on board in Tampa. We flew to New Orleans where two people got off, three other people got on, Roselli stayed on board. We flew to Houston and then the next morning, we had some weather, and we left for Dallas, and we had to... we were heading for Thunderbird, I mean for Redbird Airport, and we had to make a stop a Dallas/Garland because of weather. We did not have an IFR flight plan filed at that point. We did not want to file a flight plan. The impression I was under at that time is we were flying a team into Dallas to abort the assassination and John Roselli was on board that flight as well as a couple of other Cubans and people that were connected with organized crime in New Orleans.

(...)

http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/TOSHTRANS1.htm




Yeah, it is sad about Angleton getting fired over his spying. After all he was so helpful in the coverup. No wonder that they needed to get rid of the Church Committee. So they needed a new DCI. Guess who they picked? George H.W. Bush



Counter intelligence Chief James Angleton of the CIA called Bill Sullivan of the FBI and rehearsed the questions and answers they would give to the Warren Commission investigators.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SSangleton.htm
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. What's Tosh Plumlee say regarding Poppy Bush 'n' Dealey Plaza?
There WERE a lot of armed, dirty-handed people claiming to be "Secret Service" on the knoll and in the plaza and who knows where else that awful day. One fellah has a most familiar slouch...



After all, George Herbert Walker BUSH told the FBI he was headin' to Dallas:



Angleton, knowing death was near, told author Joseph Trento he knew he would see Allen Dulles and all his NAZI brethren in Hell.

Gee. Now that I think about it: Don't worry about asking Plumlee. Having lived the life of a fat, lazy lout, I'll probably get to ask them myself.
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DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. Bush was in Dallas of course. Where was Nixon?
Nixon quit politics after being beaten in the election, however he didn't leave politics completely and was in charge of that Operation 40 group who were supposed to get rid off Castro. That means that Nixon and Bush had the same friends like Goss, Tosh, Hunt and Barry Seal, who later became one of the largest drugsdealers. It's no wonder that Nixon invited Bush to the White House.

Back to the question where was Dick on November 22, 1963. There are three stories...


Story One

Not long after Kennedy was shot, Nixon wrote an unusually long article for the Reader's Digest. It appeared in the November 1964 issue under the strange title, "Cuba, Castro, and John F Kennedy." Prepared as it was by Nixon or for his signature and prepared for the massive worldwide audience of the August Reader's Digest, we are asked to believe that this is the factual account of what took place. Nixon says

"I urged, in a statement to the press Dallas on November 21 that the President and the vice-president be shown the respect to which their office entitled them."

Nixon added,

"I boarded a plane in Dallas on the morning of November 22 to New York. We arrived on schedule at 12:56. I hailed a cab. We were waiting for a light to change when a man ran over from the street corner and said that the President had just been shot in Dallas. This is the way that I learned the news."

Story Two

(...)

"I attended the Pepsi Cola convention ( in Dallas ) and left on Friday morning. November 22, from Love Field. Dallas, on a flight back to New York , . . on arrival in New York we caught a cab and headed for the city the cabbie missed a turn somewhere and we were off the highway . . . a woman came out of her house screaming and crying. I rolled down the cab window to ask what the matter was and when she saw my face she turned even paler. She told me that John Kennedy had just been shot in Dallas,"

Story Three

(...)

"(At Idlewild Airport now JFK Airport) in New York , reporters and photographers had been waiting for the American Airlines plane among (the passengers) was Nixon. As he got off the plane he thought that he would give 'the boys' basically the same interview he had granted in Dallas . Nixon posed for a few pictures . . . got into a taxi-cab was barely out of the airport when one of the reporters got the message: The President has been shot in Dallas."

The True Story

(...)

Mr. Russel confirmed that Nixon was attending that meeting at the time the shots were fired. He added Nixon was there representing the Pepsi Cola Company's law firm Mudge, Rose, Nixon et al. The Dallas newspapers stated that Nixon was attending a board meeting.

Mr. Russel confirmed that the session Nixon was attending broke up when the assassination news came through. Nixon then returned to his hotel and later in the afternoon had been driven to the Dallas airport by a Mr. Deluca, also a Pepsi Cola official.

(...)

http://www.prouty.org/nixon.html


So why does Nixon have a hard remembering that he had a perfect alibi and was in a meeting in Dallas that day and left for New York after they heard the news about JFK...



Weird, four presidents in Dallas that day...
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. Five
Weird, four presidents in Dallas that day...

JFK, LBJ, Tricky Dick, Poppy...

Barbara Bush told historian Michael Beschloss she and Junior were in Dallas that day and that she took him to see the "parade."

This was reported by Beschloss on Imus around Nov. 22, 2004. My sources are seemslikeadream and another DUer who posted on it.

Gee. All those "presidents." Only one really earned the title and the respect that used to go with it.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
6. Thankyou, old friend..... and check out this post
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
23. NAZIs connect to Dallas through members of the BFEE


The Nazi Connection to the John F. Kennedy Assassination

Evidence of link between Nazis still in operation after World War II to the still unsolved murder of John F. Kennedy


by Mae Brussell

EXCERPT...

Giancana was busy with more than his love life; he was hired to form assassination teams to go after Fidel Castro. The man who retained him was Robert Maheu, a former FBI and CIA operative. It was a classic cutoff. Maheu never mentioned that the CIA was behind it. He intimated to Giancana that wealthy Cuban exiles were providing the funds. This sounded plausible, since Maheu was Howard Hughes' right-hand man.

Giancana put his Los Angeles lieutenant, Johnny Roselli, in charge of the hit squads. In 1978 when the House Select Committee questioned him, Roselli hinted that his assignment was aimed at Kennedy as well as Castro. Shortly afterward, his body was found floating in an oil drum off the Florida coast. Giancana never got a chance to testify. He was shot to death in his Chicago home.

The Howard Hughes organization, used as a cover for the kill-Castro conspiracy, (Hughes thought it was a patriotic idea) has long retained Carl Byoir Associates as its public relations arm. Throughout the war Byoir represented nazi bankers and industrialists and the I.G. Farben interests. One of his clients was Ernest Schmitz, member of the I.G. Farben-Ilgner and the German American Board of Trade. His Information Services was subsidized by the nazi government. George Sylvester Viereck, editor of the German Library of Information, was also in business with Byoir. A lucrative Byoir client was the Frederick Flick Group. Flick, a Nuremberg defendant released by McCloy, was the single greatest power behind the nazi military muscle.

Frederick Flick's son was close to the W.R. Grace Company, and invested over $400,000 in partnership with J. Peter Grace in the United States. During the war, WR. Grace was accused in a military report of protecting a certain nazi Colonel Brite in Bolivia. In 1951, when the CIA smuggled Barbie out of Germany, he was sent to join the same Colonel Brite. George de Mohrenschildt was a close associate of the company's founder, William Grace.

CONTINUED...

http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%20Articles/Na...



Anytime, blm! Thank YOU.

Didn't "know" that you had written that. Thank you very much.



I must've felt a disturbance in The Force before I checked "Mr. DU."
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SupplyConcerns Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
7. That's MY vision of history
Thanks for making me feel a little less alone. But why didn't you go into the JFK assasination at all? I know for a fact that at least one of those E. Howard Hunt pictures above is from the famous series of the "three tramps" arrested by the railroad in Dallas on 11/22/63. Was that just meant as an inside joke for folks like me who've read more about Hunt's role in the assasination?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Octafish has posted about that many times before. This is just another
layer he's adding to the overall story.

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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. The more you uncover
the worse it gets...
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DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. It's a layered discussion. E. Howard Hunt
Edited on Fri May-12-06 05:04 PM by DrDebug
E. Howard Hunt is quite a character.

Everette Howard Hunt (born October 9, 1918 in East Hamburg, New York, United States) was the political and the psychological warfare director for the Guatemalan coup, he was one of the tramps on Dealey Plaza and worked for the White House under President Richard Nixon, figured in the Watergate Scandal, and was convicted of burglary, conspiracy, and wiretapping, eventually serving 33 months in prison. His wife got killed in suspicious circumstances. E. Howard Hunt was also a prolific author, primarily of spy novels. He declared bankruptcy in 1995 and lives in Miami, Florida.


Operations

E. Howard Hunt worked CIA which included being the architect for the Guatemala coup in 1954 (Operation PBSUCCESS) and the Bay of Pigs Invasion.

He opened 50 stations in Mexico to embarrass the USSR. He became the chief Balkan Operations. All operations were carried out from the Greek border. He assigned back to the Western Hemisphere as Chief of Propaganda and Political Action to overthrow the Guatemalan government (Operation PBSUCCESS).

Later Hunt was reassigned to Japan as Chief of Cover operations for the North Asia Command under general Matthew Ridgeway's Far East command. In 1956 he was assigned to Montevideo, Uruguay. Later he was involved in Operation 40. In Bay of Pigs against Cuba Hunt is known as "Eduardo". He was then given a minor political assignment in Madrid, Spain. In 1970 he was given early retirement.

Spies and Provacateurs by Minnick, W. published 1992


Tramp on Dealey Plaza is Watergate burglar

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/JFK/n...


Operation PBSUCCESS in Guatemala

Interview with E. Howard Hunt
Backyard Episode 18

INT: So when the operation was beginning to be developed - talk me through the first stages of how you decided to recruit the rebel army, pick a leader, where to do it from, the involvement of Somoza, and why it was called "PB Success".

HH: I'll start with the last one first. "PB" is the diagraph for Guatemala, or was in my day, and "Success" obviously is a morale-building type of codeword, so the combination "PB" plus "Success" meant we're going to have a successful operation in Guatemala, and I believed that - never had any reason to believe otherwise.

I was not part of the military planning for this operation; I was in charge of the political and the psychological warfare aspects. And the old slogan "You can't beat someone with no one" was very much at the front of my mind, and from various sources I was able to pull together a sort of a preferential panel, or group of three prominent Guatemalans who were outside Guatemala. We could only deal with those who were outside, because those who were inside were in tough shape thanks to Arbenz's secret police. And one of them was a former justice... I guess chief justice of the Guatemalan Supreme Court, Juan Curdoba Serna, whom I had met... he was living in Mexico, and I met him in Mexico City and talked with him and got some more input from him about the dangers of communism erupting inside Guatemala and then spreading out. The next one was Miguel Idegros Fuentes, who was a very prominent... or had been a prominent military figure, an extraordinary man - if I can just give you an example of his appropriateness.

Years later, actually during the Cuba affair, I was in the Casa Rosada in Guatemala City, and by then Idegros Fuentes was president, and while he was holding a conversation with myself and two other CIA officers, aides are coming in, he's dictating to two secretaries, he's signing cables. He was a most extraordinary example to me of how a brilliant mind can handle a number of tracks at the same time. He was working on about seven tracks, and he never missed pace, never missed a moment, and he was just a fine, patriotic leader. However, the Department of State said that he was right- winger and therefore he was unsuitable, that the masses would not support him. So that came down to number three, Colonel Castillo Armas

...

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/coldwar/interviews/episode...



Watergate

The phone number of Howard Hunt was found in address books of two of the burglars. Reporters were able to link the break-in to the White House. Bob Woodward, a reporter working for the Washington Post was told by a friend who was employed by the government, that senior aides of President Richard Nixon, had paid the burglars to obtain information about its political opponents.

Hunt threatened to reveal details of who paid him to organize the Watergate break-in. Dorothy Hunt took part in the negotiations with Charles Colson. According to investigator Sherman Skolnick, Hunt also had information on the assassination of John F. Kennedy. He argued that if "Nixon didn't pay heavy to suppress the documents they had showing he was implicated in the planning and carrying out, by the FBI and the CIA, of the political murder of President Kennedy"

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhuntH.htm



Flight 533

E. Howard Hunt's wife, Dorothy Hunt killed in the United Airlines airplane crash of Flight 533. Veronica Kuculich, her daughter Theresa, and 43 passengers die when the plan destroys the Kuculich residence at 3722 70th Place in Chicago. Eighteen passengers survive. Dorothy Hunt's purse suspiciously contains $10,585 cash. The NTSB, FBI, and Congress investigate for sabotage but find nothing, blaming the crash on the flight crew's failure to activate wing spoilers.

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/usa/e-howard-hunt /
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. You're spot-on. Here's a bit more on our 'Secret History'...
...a term that is not original to me, but hits the mark.



Poppy Bush Involved in JFK Assassination -- BFEE's Spooked!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

A little more light on the cockroaches behind the republican refrigerator in the kitchen of democracy:



Know your Bush Family Evil Empire


Know your BFEE: Cheney & Halliburton Sold Iran Nuke Technology

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: The Stench of Moussaoui Permeates the Octopus

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: Moussaoui Must Die for Bush and 'His' Government

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...



Know your BFEE: Alito is just another word for Mussolini

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


What the heck, this belongs there, too:

BFEE Turd Daniel Pipes tied to DANISH CARTOONS

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: Like a NAZI

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: The China-Bush Axis

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: Bush and bin Laden Clans Together in Bed

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: Libby Is the First Big BFEE Turd to Go Down

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: WHIG (White House Iraq Group) made phony case for Iraq War

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: The Secret Government

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: Reinhard Gehlen

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: Poppy Bush Armed Saddam

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: Killer Businessmen who put Power and Profit before Country

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: Nixon Threatened to Nuke Vietnam

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: Corrupt Craftsmen Hoover and Dulles

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: Poppys CIA Made Saddam Into the Butcher of Baghdad

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: Hitlers Bankers Shaped Vietnam War

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: Merchants of Death

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: R. James Woolsey, Turd of War

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: Sneering Dick Cheney, Superturd-Superrich-Supercrook

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: Bush Lied America into War

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: James R Bath Bush bin Laden Link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: War Profiteers

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: Dead Men Tell No Tales

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: Rev. Sun Myung Moon OWNS Poppy Bush

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: Homeland Czar & Petro-Turd Bernie Kerik

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: American Children Used in Radiation Experiments

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: Eugenics and the NAZIs - The California Connection

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: The Barreling Bushes

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: A Crime Line of Treason

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: How Smirko Got Rich

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: George W Bush did "community service" at Project P.U.L.L.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: Vote Suppressor Supreme, the Turd Bill Rehnquist

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: George W Bush Knew 9-11 Was Coming and Did NOTHING!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: Oliver North, Drug Dealer

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


Know your BFEE: Pat Robertson Incorporated a Gold Mine with a Terrorist

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...



These arent labeled Know Your BFEE, but theyre meant in the same spirit:


JFK Would NEVER Have Fallen for Phony INTEL!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


BFEE Is More than Capable of Bombing Their Own Countrymen

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


And for all my friends in those hard-to-reach areas:

A Short History of Conspiracy Theory

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...



Thanks for understanding the reference, Supply Concerns! It's a lot less lonely fight with you onboard. Thank you for giving a damn.
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Sydnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Bless You Octafish
You live the saying "each one teach one" with such grace and style. I thank you for allowing me to be one of those that learns from the past through you.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. PRESCOTT BUSH FINANCED
the Nazi war machine. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN to anyone whose sensibilities are offended by "comparisons?"
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. It bugs me, see? It's the CIA's worst-kept secret, see?


Yeah, see. It bugs me.

What Karenina is talking about:



CIA's Worst-Kept Secret

By Martin A. Lee
May 16, 2001

"Honest and idealist ... enjoys good food and wine ... unprejudiced mind..."

That's how a 1952 Central Intelligence Agency assessment described Nazi ideologue Emil Augsburg, an officer at the infamous Wannsee Institute, the SS think tank involved in planning the Final Solution. Augsburg's SS unit performed "special duties," a euphemism for exterminating Jews and other "undesirables" during the Second World War.

Although he was wanted in Poland for war crimes, Augsburg managed to ingratiate himself with the U.S. CIA, which employed him in the late 1940s as an expert on Soviet affairs.

Recently released CIA records indicate that Augsburg was among a rogue's gallery of Nazi war criminals recruited by U.S. intelligence shortly after Germany surrendered to the Allies.

Pried loose by Congress, which passed the Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act three years ago, a long-hidden trove of once-classified CIA documents confirms one of the worst-kept secrets of the Cold War the CIA's use of an extensive Nazi spy network to wage a clandestine campaign against the Soviet Union.

The CIA reports show that U.S. officials knew they were subsidizing numerous Third Reich veterans who had committed horrible crimes against humanity, but these atrocities were overlooked as the anti-Communist crusade acquired its own momentum. For Nazis who would otherwise have been charged with war crimes, signing on with American intelligence enabled them to avoid a prison term.

"The real winners of the Cold War were Nazi war criminals, many of whom were able to escape justice because the East and West became so rapidly focused after the war on challenging each other," says Eli Rosenbaum, director of the Justice Department's Office of Special Investigations and America's chief Nazi hunter.

CONTINUED...

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2001/051601a.html



WARMONKEY
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I suppose if anyone REALLY wants to KNOW, they'll LOOK IT UP!!! (That's what my Mom always insisted we do if we didn't "get" something. We had to look it up and report back on what we'd learned). No sense in relying on ANYONE'S WORD with the preponderance of ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS within such easy grasp! The article merely points to them. READ 'EM AND WEEP! Then "just say NO! :evilgrin:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
28. That they have little sense worth offending, imo.
.
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happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
11. K&R! Keep it coming my friend. nt
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
32. Galbraith and Vietnam
Edited on Sat May-13-06 10:12 PM by Octafish
He was a giant in statescraft, economics and ethics. The recent passing of John Kenneth Galbraith also marks one fewer witness to what was the Time before the War Party.





Galbraith and Vietnam

by RICHARD PARKER
The Nation, March 14, 2005 issue

In the fall of 1961, unknown to the American public, John F. Kennedy was weighing a crucial decision about Vietnam not unlike that which George W. Bush faced about Iraq in early 2002--whether to go to war. It was the height of the cold war, when Communism was the "terrorist threat," and Ho Chi Minh the era's Saddam Hussein to many in Washington. But the new President was a liberal Massachusetts Democrat (and a decorated war veteran), not a conservative Sunbelt Republican who claimed God's hand guided his foreign policy. JFK's tough-minded instincts about war were thus very different. Contrary to what many have come to believe about the Vietnam War's origins, new research shows that Kennedy wanted no war in Asia and had clear criteria for conditions under which he'd send Americans abroad to fight and die for their country--criteria quite relevant today.

But thanks also in part to recently declassified records, we now know that Kennedy's top aides--whatever his own views--were offering him counsel not all that different from what Bush was told forty years later. Early that November, his personal military adviser, Gen. Maxwell Taylor, and his deputy National Security Adviser, Walt Rostow, were on their way back from Saigon with a draft of the "Taylor report," their bold plan to "save" Vietnam, beginning with the commitment of at least 8,000 US troops--a down payment, they hoped, on thousands more to follow. But they knew JFK had no interest in their idea because six months earlier in a top-secret meeting, he had forcefully vetoed his aides' proposed dispatch of 60,000 troops to neighboring Laos--and they were worried about how to maneuver his assent.

Harvard economist John Kenneth Galbraith, then Ambassador to India, got wind of their plan--and rushed to block their efforts. He was not an expert on Vietnam, but India chaired the International Control Commission, which had been set up following French withdrawal from Indochina to oversee a shaky peace accord meant to stabilize the region, and so from State Department cables he knew about the Taylor mission--and thus had a clear sense of what was at stake. For Galbraith, a trusted adviser with unique back-channel access to the President, a potential US war in Vietnam represented more than a disastrous misadventure in foreign policy--it risked derailing the New Frontier's domestic plans for Keynesian-led full employment, and for massive new spending on education, the environment and what would become the War on Poverty. Worse, he feared, it might ultimately tear not only the Democratic Party but the nation apart--and usher in a new conservative era in American politics.

Early that November, just as Taylor and his team arrived back in Washington, Galbraith arrived from New Delhi for the state visit of Prime Minister Nehru. Hoping to gain a quick upper hand over Taylor and his mission, he arranged a private luncheon for Kennedy and Nehru at the Newport estate of Jacqueline Kennedy's mother and stepfather. No one from the State Department--to Secretary of State Dean Rusk's great consternation--was invited, save Galbraith. Ten days earlier, Galbraith, in one of his back-channel messages, had shared with Kennedy his growing concerns about Vietnam. From India, he'd played a role in defusing the Laos situation that spring, but over the summer, the Berlin crisis had sent a sharp chill through relations with the Soviets, with the risks of nuclear confrontation for a time all too real. About this, Galbraith now told the President:

Although at times I have been rather troubled by Berlin, I have always had the feeling that it would be worked out. I have continued to worry far, far more about South Viet Nam. This is more complex, far less controllable, far more varied in the factors involved, far more susceptible to misunderstanding. And to make matters worse, I have no real confidence in the sophistication and political judgment of our people there.

This was advice Kennedy was hearing from no one else in his Administration, but clearly welcomed.

CONTINUED...

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050314/parker



How different was Kennedy's approach to the problems of Vietnam and southeast Asia. His successors had no problem pulling the trigger, bringing in the ground troups to fight, and getting the nation into a war without knowing how or when to get out. Sounds familiar.

PS: Thank your for the kind words, happydreams. Your friendship means the world to me.
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Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-12-06 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
12. Excellent post, Octafish ~ and fascinating to read Nixon's own words
plotting against the Kennedys even after two of them were dead. He seems obsessed with smearing them. And doesn't seem to care what consequences his obsession might have for the country.

The Bushes have been part of the sad history of war for far too long. I wonder what we would hear if the current administration was taped. Karl and George ~ that would be something to hear ~

Did Howard Hunt ever go to jail? From your post, it seems he forged documents with the intention of falsifying history. Isn't that a major crime? From your post, it seems he was rewarded, rather than tried.

The more I learn, the more I wonder if this country was ever a democracy ~ and it's becoming clearer and clearer that the Bush family do not believe in democracy ~

Thank you for educating us on the sordid history of this family ~
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
34. The "Bay of Pigs Thing" means Dallas was LIHOP
HR "Bob" Haldeman, Nixon's White House chief of staff, in his autobiography "Ends of Power," said that Nixon used to say "Bay of Pigs Thing" as a euphemism for the assassination of President Kennedy.

Nixon tells Haldeman, in ordering him to inform Ehrilchman and Helms about the identity of the Watergate burglars ties to the anti-Castro Cuban community suspected of Dallas...



Nixon: I consider it a top priority that I want the Diem story. Also on the Bay of Pigs thing, just -- I want an order to Helms and ((deputy CIA director Robert)) Cushman that for my purposes, not for public release, I am to have the Bay of Pigs story. Now that's an order. And I expect it in one week, or I want his resignation on my desk. Put it as coldly as that. The Bay of Pigs story, the total story. Tell him I know a lot about it myself. But I've got to have it -- just because I'll be questioned about it myself, and I want to be able to know what to say. The Bay of Pigs story and the Diem story. ... The whole folderol -- the way it happened, I've just got to know. ... I will not brook any opposition on this. I've screwed around long enough. I've told Henry ((Kissinger)) and he has really dropped the ball on this.

March 28, 1973, the Executive Office Building. Despite Nixon's insistence, secret CIA and State Department files on the Diem assassination and the Bay of Pigs are not made public. The President's frustration continues for months, and years:

Nixon
: Did you get the word on the declassification of everything over 10 years? That's got to move fast. And not only ((unintelligible)) but the other one's important -- on the Bay of Pigs. Just get the damn thing out, will you? That's going to be quite a story -- a few little morsels. Do you agree?

Haldeman: Yeah.

Nixon: Also gets into the Diem murder and the whole Diem thing. Now the war is over and we're not going to take Henry's crap. Henry's a little bit involved in that himself. That's why he doesn't want some of it declassified.

May 13, 1973, the White House. A telephone conversation between the president and Gen. Alexander Haig, his military adviser. The president, still harping on Diem and the Bay of Pigs, mentions the White House operative E. Howard Hunt, who fabricated diplomatic cables and documents implicating Kennedy:

Nixon
: I think we should just declassify everything going back -- everything that's 10 years old, and declassify the whole Bay of Pigs, plus the Diem thing. (Expletive) it, you know, that's -- that can only be helpful. Now you say, "Well, it'll stir things up in Vietnam." The hell with it. You don't like that, huh?

Haig: I'm not sure, sir. I think it's a thing that should be considered. ...

Nixon: Doggone it, I'd like to do it, because -- look, I have not looked at the Bay of Pigs stuff, but I know there's stuff in there that makes ((McGeorge)) Bundy ((Kennedy's national security adviser)) look like a goddamn -- uh, you know, terrible. ... Goddammit, you know what happened is, they set in motion a chain of events which resulted in the murder of Diem.

Haig: Oh, there's no question about that. None. ... In fact, you know, the vice president's aide was there. He was Lodge's assistant ((when Henry Cabot Lodge was ambassador to South Vietnam)). I talked to him some years ago about that.

Nixon: What'd he say?

Haig: He said ... the poor guy called Lodge on the phone, and said, "They're going to kill me, for God's sake, send some Marine guards up here."



Nixon's worried about Hunt's role. Hunt ties to the Cubans. The Cubans to the Mob and the Mob to the CIA. The CIA connects to Bush and Dulles and ...the MI Complex Right Wing Thing.



Dirty Politics--
Nixon, Watergate, and the JFK Assassination


by Mark Edwards

"I suppose really the only two dates that most people remember where they were was Pearl Harbor and the death of president Franklin Roosevelt." --John F. Kennedy

EXCERPT...

"In fact, I was puzzled when he told me, 'Tell Ehrlichman this whole group of Cubans is tied to the Bay of Pigs.' After a pause I said, 'The Bay of Pigs? What does that have to do with this ?' But Nixon merely said, 'Ehrlichman will know what I mean,' and dropped the subject."

Later in his book, Haldeman appears to answer his own question when he says, "It seems that in all of those Nixon references to the Bay of Pigs, he was actually referring to the Kennedy assassination."

If Haldeman's interpretation is correct, then Nixon's instructions for him to, "Tell Ehrlichman this whole group of Cubans is tied to the Bay of Pigs," was Nixon's way of telling him to inform Ehrlichman that the Watergate burglars were tied to Kennedy's murder. (It should be noted that many Cuban exiles blamed Kennedy for the failure to overthrow Castro at the Bay of Pigs, pointing to Kennedy's refusal to provide U.S. military support for the invasion.)

Haldeman also links the CIA to the Watergate burglars and, by implication, to the Kennedy assassination. Haldeman writes, "...at least one of the burglars, Martinez, was still on the CIA payroll on June 17, 1972--and almost certainly was reporting to his CIA case officer about the proposed break-in even before it happened ."

One of the Watergate burglars was E. Howard Hunt whose relationship with the Cuban exiles traces back to the early 1960's, to his days with the CIA. As a political officer and propaganda expert, Hunt helped create the Cuban Revolutionary Council (CRC)--a militant anti-Castro organization under CIA control. Hunt would later resign from the CIA (at least ostensibly) to become covert operations chief for the Nixon White House.

Several reports over the years have placed Hunt in Dallas at the time of the Kennedy assassination. In a 1985 trial, eyewitness Marita Lorenz testified that she saw Hunt pay off a CIA-backed assassination team in Dallas the night before Kennedy's murder. (Hunt v. Liberty Lobby; U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida; 1985)

In taped conversations with Haldeman, Nixon is obviously worried about what would happen if Hunt's involvement in the Watergate burglary came to light. Nixon says, "Of course, this Hunt, that will uncover a lot of things. You open that scab, there's a hell of a lot of things, and we feel that it would be very detrimental to have this thing go any further...the President believes that it is going to open the whole Bay of Pigs thing up again." Click to Listen: Nixon instructs Haldeman (text below)

CONTINUED

http://dirtypolitics.50megs.com/dirty.htm





Small world. And very, very bad.
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Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. There is a lot to absorb ~ and it's both really disturbing and fascinating
at the same time. Disturbing because the truth was never told, despite the apparent involvement of so many people ~

Do you think that Nixon's obsession with publicly blaming Kennedy for Diem's assassination was to assuage his own conscience?

I had to come back to read more of the links in this thread ~ what a dark period the '60s and '70s were ~ I wonder will the truth about the Bush family's history ever be totally revealed to the public?

Thanks for doing your part, Octafish ~ I wonder how different this country would have been had Kennedy lived ~

A question! Did the murderers of JFK expect that he would be so revered after his death? And did they care? Nixon seems to have been bothered by that ~ I had read somewhere, I don't remember where, the Nixon and Kennedy liked each other ~ it doesn't seem that that was the case ~

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
16. Kick
:hi:

:kick:
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
37. The second biggest lie (after the Warren Commission)...
What we Democrats should know, remember and keep:



THE SECOND BIGGEST LIE

by Michael Morrissey

The biggest lie of our time, after the Warren Report, is the notion that Johnson
merely continued or expanded Kennedy's policy in Vietnam after the
assassination.


1. JFK's policy


In late 1962, Kennedy was still fully committed to supporting the Diem regime,
though he had some doubts even then. When Senator Mike Mansfield advised
withdrawal at that early date:

The President was too disturbed by the Senator's unexpected argument to reply to
it. He said to me later when we talked about the discussion, "I got angry with
Mike for disagreeing with our policy so completely, and I got angry with myself
because I found myself agreeing with him (Kenneth O'Donnell and Dave Powers,
Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye, Boston: Little, Brown and Co., 1970, p. 15).


By the spring of 1963, Kennedy had reversed course completely and agreed with
Mansfield:

"The President told Mansfield that he had been having serious second thoughts
about Mansfield's argument and that he now agreed with the Senator's thinking on
the need for a complete military withdrawal from Vietnam.

'But I can't do it until 1965--after I'm reelected,' Kennedy told Mansfield....

After Mansfield left the office, the President said to me, 'In 1965 I'll become
one of the most unpopular Presidents in history. I'll be damned everywhere as a
Communist appeaser. But I don't care. If I tried to pull out completely now from
Vietnam, we would have another Joe McCarthy red scare on our hands, but I can do
it after I'm reelected. So we had better make damned sure that I am reelected'
(O'Donnell, p. 16)."


Sometime after that Kennedy told O'Donnell again that

"...he had made up his mind that after his reelection he would take the risk of
unpopularity and make a complete withdrawal of American military forces from
Vietnam. He had decided that our military involvement in Vietnam's civil war
would only grow steadily bigger and more costly without making a dent in the
larger political problem of Communist expansion in Southeast Asia" (p. 13).


Just before he was killed he repeated this commitment:

"'They keep telling me to send combat units over there,' the President said to
us one day in October <1963>. 'That means sending draftees, along with volunteer
regular Army advisers, into Vietnam. I'll never send draftees over there to
fight'.
" (O'Donnell, p. 383).


CONTINUED...

http://eserver.org/govt/gulf-war/jfk-lbj-and-vietnam.tx...



Hi, Cleita! Como handas, amiga?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 05:51 AM
Response to Original message
19. For lies are the
devil's tongue, and apathy his language.

A passage from "Alice in Wonderland" expresses this well:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "who is to be master, that's all."
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
38. Orwell saw that future fascistii would shorten the vocab, so to speak...
...only about what concepts the government wanted the proles and outer party to consider. The inner party could think about more stuff because they had a piece of the action, as it were, and were counted on to go by and protect their self-interests.

Good thing Al Gore invented the Internets. Lots of words to think about. Like Freedom and Justice and Law and Truth.



"For whom, it suddenly occurred to him to wonder, was he writing this diary? For the future, for the unborn? ... For the first time the magnitude of what he had undertaken came home to him. How could you communicate with the future? It was of its nature impossible. Either the future would resemble the present in which case it would not listen to him, or it would be different from it, and his predicament would be meaningless." -- Winston Smith, from Orwell's 1984

Source: http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/ns_frames.html



Hey Waterman!
D'ya read
Jorge Luis Borges,
you know,
to get away
from it all?
How about
Stanislaw Lem?
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
20. "And the truth shall set you free". Kick
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-14-06 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
39. Abraham Bolden, the 1st National Security Whistleblower, Protected JFK...
Mr. Bolden was the first African American member of the Secret Service, appointed by President Kennedy.

Of course, he was not very popular -- especially after he saved the President's life and was then framed to prevent him from talking about Dallas.

The BFEE is bipartisan.



After 40 Years, the First National Security Whistleblower Still Seeks Justice

by Lamar Waldron and Thom Hartmann
Published on Friday, February 17, 2006, by CommonDreams.org

After an outstanding career in law enforcement, Abraham Bolden was appointed by John F. Kennedy to be the first African American presidential Secret Service agent, where he served with distinction. But you haven't heard about Abraham Bolden during Black History month, because after helping to prevent JFK's assassination in the weeks before Dallas, Bolden was arrested on the very day he went to Washington to tell the Warren Commission about those attempts. Caught in a maze of National Security concerns that only became clear after four million pages of JFK files were released in the 1990s, Bolden was sentenced to six years in prison, becoming America's first National Security Whistleblower.

The files released after Congress passed the JFK Act unanimously in 1992 show the massive amount of information that had been withheld from at least five Congressional investigations. Even worse, the Final Report of the JFK Board created by Congress shows that crucial files about attempts against JFK--the cases Bolden worked on--were destroyed by the Secret Service in 1995. And, a report by the government oversight group OMB Watch says that "well over one million CIA records" related to JFK's era remain unreleased, perhaps until the mandatory release date of 2017.

Bolden, now 71, can't wait that long.

Plus, the long-secret files that have been released show how keeping millions of documents secret for decades have negatively impacted US actions in dealing with Iraq, Central America, and Cuba, as well as preventing crucial intelligence failures from coming to light prior to 9/11.

On February 14, 2006, Congress held hearings about National Security Whistleblowers, aimed at improving laws to protect them from retaliation for trying to tell the truth. The witnesses who testified revealed a litany of workers being attacked by their own agencies, of documents destroyed or withheld--even from Congress--and of years of struggle to get fair hearings. This pattern began in the case of Abraham Bolden in 1964, yet most in Congress are unaware of his case. Likewise, Congress doesn't realize that not only did the Secret Service admit destroying crucial JFK documents in 1995, but that the Secret Service then failed to confirm their compliance with the JFK Act under oath, as did other agencies.

CONTINUED...

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0217-20.htm



Good to read ya, oasis! Thanks for giving a damn.

CRAZY MONKEY
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
21. Nothing like a little light reading on a Saturday morning.
Thanks, as always, for the fascinating and informative post.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #21
41. Kennedy, the Vietnam War, and Intelligence Failures
Sorry, bleever. My aim was to keep things simple. DrDebug laughed in my face.



Kennedy, the Vietnam War, and Intelligence Failures

In the discussions over how the U.S. went to war in Iraq and the prospects for that conflict, the Vietnam War has been raised repeatedly. These discussions typically focus on the prospects in Iraq (e.g., "is it a quagmire?"), but rarely mentioned are the troubling details of how the decision to go to war in Vietnam was made. It is now generally conceded that Congressional authorization for President Johnson to pursue that war vigorously was granted in the wake of what we now know was an "intelligence failure" - the supposed second attack on U.S. naval vessels in the Gulf of Tonkin never happened. As in Iraq, there remain serious questions about how aggressively officials moved to use the mistaken reports without verifying them, in order to pursue desired policy goals. Also, it has long been known that the naval vessels in question were engaged in aggressive intelligence-gathering maneuvers, in support of OPLAN 34A, a program of covert attacks against North Vietnam.

What does this have to do with the assassination of President Kennedy?

For one thing, the authorization for the OPLAN 34A program is contained in NSAM 273, the first National Security Action Memorandum signed by President Johnson (on November 26, four short days after President Kennedy's murder, following an emergency meeting on Vietnam on the 24th). This NSAM was drafted the day before Kennedy's fateful motorcade ride in Dallas, but the draft version differs markedly in the scope of authorization for such a program, and in any case Kennedy never saw or signed it.

Beyond the above is the larger question of Kennedy's policies and plans in Vietnam. Here, serious gaps in the record have been filled in since the passage of the 1992 JFK Assassination Records Collection Act. The gaps have been filled in with more details on the plans for complete withdrawal from Vietnam which were drawn up in the spring of 1963, and initiated on October 11 with NSAM 263. This gave the order for an initial pullout of 1000 men before the end of 1963, an event which never occurred.

With the filling in of the record - why were these documents a state secret for 35 years? - the debate among historians has shifted. No longer is the issue whether there was a plan to withdraw - the question has moved to whether it was "serious enough" to survive the change in reporting of the battlefield conditions which occurred in the wake of Kennedy's murder, from optimistic to pessimistic. Some historians, including David Kaiser (American Tragedy) and Howard Jones (Death of a Generation) now argue that Kennedy was determined to withdraw despite a change in conditions, joining Peter Dale Scott, John Newman, and no less than Robert McNamara. Many mainstream historians and others - including Noam Chomsky whose book Rethinking Camelot is largely a rebuttal of this view - maintain that Kennedy's assassination was not a factor in the progress toward war in Vietnam.

Just like the questions swirling around how the U.S. went to war in Iraq, the questions about Kennedy and Vietnam should not be lightly brushed aside.

SOURCE W/VERY IMPORTANT LINKS: http://www.jfkaccountability.org /



NOT A PATRIOT
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
25. Keep it up and running, kick to ensure it does not get hidden.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #25
40. Your wish is my command
:kick:
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. Papers reveal JFK efforts on Vietnam
Thanks you two! You have no idea how much your Friendship means to me.

New history for those who give a damn about a new future:



Papers reveal JFK efforts on Vietnam

By Bryan Bender, Globe Staff | June 6, 2005

WASHINGTON -- Newly uncovered documents from both American and Polish archives show that President John F. Kennedy and the Soviet Union secretly sought ways to find a diplomatic settlement to the war in Vietnam, starting three years before the United States sent combat troops.

Kennedy, relying on his ambassador to India, John Kenneth Galbraith, planned to reach out to the North Vietnamese in April 1962 through a senior Indian diplomat, according to a secret State Department cable that was never dispatched.

Back-channel discussions also were attempted in January 1963, this time through the Polish government, which relayed the overture to Soviet leaders. New Polish records indicate Moscow was much more open than previously thought to using its influence with North Vietnam to cool a Cold War flash point.

The attempts to use India and Poland as go-betweens ultimately fizzled, partly because of North Vietnamese resistance and partly because Kennedy faced pressure from advisers to expand American military involvement, according to the documents and interviews with scholars. Both India and Poland were members of the International Control Commission that monitored the 1954 agreement that divided North and South Vietnam.

The documents are seen by former Kennedy aides as new evidence of his true intentions in Vietnam. The question of whether Kennedy would have escalated the war or sought some diplomatic exit has been heatedly debated by historians and officials who served under both Kennedy and his successor, Lyndon B. Johnson.

CONTINUED...

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2... /


INSANE CROOK
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
33. Kick! eom
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #33
44. John Kenneth Galbraith spelled it out for us...
"The terrible truth with which we must all contend is that the day may come when nuclear arms fall under the control of some idiot someplace in the world. And that will be the day of reckoning."

Source: http://www.esquire.com/features/learned/060501_mwi_galb...

PS: Thanks for the kick and for giving a damn, TheGoldenRule!

AN IDIOT
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-15-06 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. No, Thank You for all your research and information, Octafish!
It is sorely needed and much appreciated! :applause:
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-16-06 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
48. Bush, United Fruits Co, Chiquita, Guatemala coup
Not to say that BFEE was involved in the Guatamala coup, but to show what a small world it is...

===========

Overthrow - America's Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq
Democracy Now
Friday, April 21st, 2006

part 1
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/04/21/132...
part 2
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/08/135...
(video, audio, transcript)

Interview with former New York Times foreign correspondent, Steve Kinzer. Kinzer's new book is titled, "Overthrow: America"s Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq." In it, he examines how the United States has thwarted independence movements in Cuba, Puerto Rico, the Philippines and Nicaragua; staged covert actions and coups d'etat in Iran, Guatemala, South Vietnam and Chile; and invaded Grenada, Panama and Afghanistan and Iraq.

....

snippet from part 2:

In Guatemala, economic life was totally dominated by one American company: the United Fruit Company. It was a uniquely powerful company, had great ties in Washington. Many of the senior people in the Eisenhower administration were either stockholders or former board members or otherwise closely connected with United Fruit. Now, in Guatemala, not only was United Fruit producing most of that country's banana exports, but it also owned more than half a million acres of land, some of the richest land in the country, that it didn't use. It was just holding this land for some potential future use.

Now, President Arbenz, who was in power in Guatemala in the early 1950s, wanted to take that land and use it to divide up among starving Guatemalan peasants. And with a democratic vote of the elected Guatemalan congress, a land reform law was passed that required the United Fruit Company to sell its unused land to the Guatemalan government at the price that United Fruit had declared on its last years tax returns as the value of that land.
...

...the United Fruit Company was able to persuade the U.S. government that not only was this government hostile to an American corporate interest in Guatemala, but it was undoubtedly a tool of the Kremlin which was, as Americans then thought, working all over the world to undermine American interests.

Now, during the run-up to the Guatemala coup, the Brazilian ambassador actually came in to see Secretary of State John Foster Dulles and asked him if he was sure, if he had proof that the Soviets were manipulating Guatemala, and Dulles very frankly answered, We do not have that proof, but we are proceeding as if it must be so.
...

==========

Zapata Oil was formed in 1953 by George H.W. Bush and Brown Brothers Harriman. Later George H.W. Bush bought the subsidiary Zapata Off-Shore and went into business for himself. It merged in 1963 with Penn to form Pennzoil. Even though Zapata never found any oil, it was succesfully sold in 1966 to Robert Gow. (All SEC filings between 1960 and 1966 were sadly destroyed in 1981)

In 1969 Zapata bought the United Fruit Company. On the board of directors was Ralph Gow, Robert Gow's father. Later that year on sept. 24. Eli Black makes the third largest transaction in Wall Street history up to that moment by buying 733,000 shares of United Fruit in a single day. Black becomes the largest shareholder of the company. In June 1970 United Fruit merges with AMK-John Morrell to become the United Brands Company.

After Eli Black's spectacular suicide on February 3, 1975 he jumped out of the window of his New York City office on the 44th floor of the Pan Am Building Cincinnati-based American Financial, one of millionaire Carl H. Lindner, Jr.'s companies, bought into United Fruit. In August 1984, Lindner took control of the company and renamed it Chiquita Brands International.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-17-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. E Howard Hunt and United Fruit overthrew Guatemala.
In the process, thousands of people died there. Hundreds of thousands more would die in Central and South America. And millions around the world.

The BFEE and its henchmen are little more than monsters. Regarding the lickspittle E. Howard Hunt and United Fruit, including info and links on a remarkable woman who won the Nobel Peace Prize:



Bitter Fruit: The Story of the American Coup in Guatemala

Bitter Fruit recounts in telling detail the CIA operation to overthrow the democratically elected government of Jacobo Arbenz of Guatemala in 1954. The 1982 book has become a classic, a textbook case study of Cold War meddling that succeeded only to condemn Guatemala to decades of military dictatorship. The authors make extensive use of U.S. government publications and documents, as well as interviews with former CIA and other officials. The Harvard edition includes a powerful new introduction by historian John Coatsworth, Director of the David Rockefeller Center for Latin American Studies; an insightful prologue by Richard Nuccio, former State Department official who revealed recent evidence of CIA misconduct in Guatemala to Congress; and a compelling afterword by coauthor Stephen Kinzer, now Istanbul bureau chief for the New York Times, summarizing developments that led from the 1954 coup to the peace accords that ended Guatemala's civil strife forty years later.

by Richard A. Nuccio / Stephen Schlesinger / Stephen Kinzer / John H. Coatsworth

http://growingtaste.com/food-growing-books/free.php?in=...



The book's "out of print," but the Truth remains.

Thanks for giving a damn, rman!

DIMSON NUTJOB
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-17-06 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
50. kick!
five star post

thanks!
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-17-06 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. G_j be in da Haus!!!
:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
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