It appears the Minutemen have stepped into the void left by

[Skidmore]

the Democratic party, which used to be the party of the worker in this nation. No party in DC now represents workers in the good old fashioned sense of the word. The Rs seek to exploit them and the Dems ignore them unless its time to appeal for votes. I'm sorry, the one issue I really think that the Dems have dropped the ball on is labor. I do believe Dems need to represent the AMERICAN worker and in doing so demand better labor standards for workers worldwide. OneWorlders, in my opinion, are the other face of corporatism.

[liberal N proud]

1. There are still workers in the United States?

If the bu$h regime finds out they will outsource them as well.

[goclark]

2. I agree!

The entire issue has been won by Bush, it's Break the Backs of Labor Time.

[ComerPerro]

3. What exactly are the Minutemen doing for the working class?

[jerry611]

4. Bringing attention to corporate exploitation

Sure their primary intention is to seal the border. But what they have done was bring attention to how corporations are benefiting off cheap slave labor from Mexico. Some companies stand to lose millions of dollars in profits if they lose that cheap labor or be forced to pay fair wages.

[Howardx]

6. how are they doing that?

their main focus appears to the immigrants themselves not the corps that use them

[jerry611]

14. If you don't think workers are harmed by illegal immigration

You are living in your own world...

Illegal immigrants by the numbers that are coming in are threatning to drive down wages and bankrupt every government program we have.

I understand why they want to come here. But we cannot take care of that many people that fast. We are going to have a $10 trillion dollar national debt by 2008. Social Security and medicare will be bankrupt within our lifetimes. Our schools are overcrowded and declining in achievement. My cousin is a teacher, she sees a disaster brewing in our education system because there just is not enough teachers to keep up with the growing class sizes. 40 million Americans don't have healthcare.

Yes, we need to allow immigrants in America. But not by the millions per year. We can't afford it.

[RaleighNCDUer]

39. It sounds like you've bought their line, hook and sinker.

Workers don't come here to be taken care of. They come here to work. Most collect NO social services because that exposes them to the chance of being deported. If they are using fake SSNs, they are paying SS taxes that they will never collect on. They pay the same state and local taxes that everyone pays, with the exception of property taxes because buying property exposes them to the risk of being deported and losing everything they've worked for. They are, for the government, the perfect citizen because they work hard, pay taxes, don't draw on government support and dare not complain.

The huge rallies we've seen recently? Numbering in the hundreds of thousands? Half those people, at a minimum, were legal US citizens standing in support of a desperately exploited people, so what you saw were maybe, at the max 200,000 undocumented workers across the entire country, out of a population of 10-12 million. The vast majority are too intimidated to make waves, and couldn't afford to take time off work -- that's why so much of the focus was on the HS kids. The kids were the only ones who could afford to join in.

The problems with the schools, with SS, with Medicare are all due to the republican administration undercutting the funding, not due to the immigrants. In fact, immigrants, mostly in their 20s and 30s, with most their productive years ahead of them are keeping SS and Medicare afloat by their taxes -- it's the babyboom Americans that will be drawing them down over the next two decades. Legalize the immigrants, and pay them a living wage, and the shortfalls will disappear.

Step back and take a look -- if the repubs had not shoved through the No Child Left Behind as a means to unfund the public schools, would the schools be in crisis today? If immigration was not set up in such a restrictive fashion, making it extremely difficult for people to integrate into American society, would people risk their lives to enter illegally and take sub-standard jobs at sub-par wages, thus increasing the corporate profits. If immigrants are flooding the emergency rooms, isn't it because they are forced into jobs with low pay and no insurance, situations that would not exist if they were legal? And finally, to paraphrase Carlos Mencia, if you lost your job to some barefoot villager from Guatemala who doesn't even speak the language, how bad was YOUR job interview?

[Dr. Jones]

45. How DARE you speak in truthful, logical, realistic terms!!

You know that emotion trumps all logic, reason, and common sense in this matter...

:sarcasm:

[LostinVA]

63. This isn't a discussion about if Illegals hurt the US worker

It's the discussion you began, and the Minutemen were not formed to help the US workers... they were formed to keep out spics, wetbacks, beaners, and a slew of other nasty words I'm sure they use.

Nice try, though.

[Tulum_Moon]

119. why will no one listen to someone like you?

They dint see what is in front of their face. Illegal is Illegal.
It has got be stopped and I dont care if they are R, or D's.

[alarimer]

121. If you don't want illegals, throw the people who hire them in JAIL

confiscate their property, make an example of them. The punishment for such exploitation has to be very harsh for it to work.

[alarimer]

120. Misplaced blame

Blame the companies that hire them. This is the mistake that all anti-illegal immigrants make. they blame the VICTIM. The undocumented are just as much victims in this as those whose jobs are lost or whose pay is decreased because companies decide to hire illegals on the cheap. They typically are more subject to injury or death on the job (Who is going to report abysmal conditions of they will just end up deported?). Companies (and sometimes individuals) are EXPLOITING these people. They are basically slaves or indentured servants.

[treestar]

130. If they were deported wouldn't it be worse for them? Or would the

job get moved to Mexico?

[alarimer]

133. well some jobs have been moved to Mexico

And China, India, etc. That is wholly the fault of multinational corporations whose only goal is making as much money as they possibly can at the expense of their employees wherever they may be. It is just exploitation somewhere else. Some of the factories on the Mexican border are moving to China because some Mexican workers have started to organize.

In this country, the argument has been one that pits low-income Americans against illegals, when in fact they are all being exploited. To me, the solution is fair trade laws that put labor laws and environmental laws first, over profit. We ultimately need to improve conditions in all countries so that people cannot be exploited anywhere and there are plenty of jobs to go around.

Right now deportation would no doubt make it worse for the people who are deported. What I am suggesting is leveling the playing field the world over, a more long-term goal for sure. Here in this country we need effective labor laws that would prevent employers from hiring illegals simply because they would be cheaper and not complain about the conditions.

[treestar]

125. If somehow all the illegals could be deported and Americans take

their jobs, can we then dissolve the welfare and unemployment programs? We won't need them, right?

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. No the minutemen's focus is on themselves

Look at me! Look at me! I hate the Mexicans! I can build a fence to keep them out!

[Kurovski]

70. I watched the minuteman rally on C-span this morning.

The focus was on Corporations and politicians.

I've no doubt that there are active, unapologetic racists in the movement--Racism is everywhere to some degree--but the movement seems to grasp the fact that it's corporations that do the hiring and set the wages, and it's the politicians who look the other way as American jobs are gutted. That's what was presented.

There was also some contempt for "lawbreakers", but the movement would do better to reserve ALL of their contempt for the people in power who invite, allow and reward desperate people to "break" the law, and whom benefit by exploiting those desperate individuals.

Anger is wasted when directed toward the powerless, but people who are actually racist will of course find it irresistible and sully any accurate and fair concerns the "minutemen" (what a crappy name choice that was) may have.

The minute folks don't want amnesty for workers already here, and that's too bad. To deport that many individuals--to break-up families--would be a humanitarian disaster. I hope they come to realize that. They could get something viable done if they work for the future--holding employers accountable. Added focus should be placed on keeping corporations accountable when they stamp their feet and leave the country when they're forced into paying living wages on scale with our economy--an economy from which they gain their wealth. That's an important issue which I think the movement may overlook. Punish the corporations, and make it less profitable for abandoning America. Laws can make it impossible for the exploitation that is destroying the real backbone of democracy, the middle-class.

While watching the rally and hearing about their concerns for the law, I wondered if there are any laws the Minutemen (really dislike that name) themselves were skirting with their unauthorized patrols. Sometimes, we all have our reasons for overlooking the breach of certain laws. :shrug: Maybe that's something for them to think about when temted to heap disdain on people who were purposefully invited into this country for the cheap labor they would provide.

Employers not only pay low wages, but know full well they can rely on social services to take up the slack for their employees' physical survival, making corporations the biggest welfare abusers (by proxy) we've got in this nation. Add that to the trough of corporate welfare that's regularly replenished by Congress, and then tell me about people who want "something for nothing."

C-Span will probably do a replay, and may already have it up at the website.

[Bridget Burke]

10. Make the corporations pay fair wages to everyone.

Immigrant or native born. And ensure that they keep the pension plans. Until we get national health care, they need to offer insurance to their employees. And safer conditions are needed in many workplaces.

Let the corporations take the brunt--not the workers. Any workers.

It's demeaning & inaccurate to call immigrants "slave labor." We did have slavery in the USA, once upon a time. Those who know history--especially those descended from slaves--could point out your errors.

[Dr. Jones]

27. Bridget Burke, that question I keep asking...

Your resolution to this issue seems to be to get both illegals and American workers together against the American corporations. You STILL have not answered me. How do we get these to opposing groups who have deep-seeded resentments on both sides to come together?

A good start in my opinion is to have the illegals cease their inflammatory rhetoric such as "jobs Americans are too lazy to do."

NOTE: The OP actually said NOTHING about the immigration issue - it was a very general statement on the Dem's stand (or lack thereof) on the pro-labor issue.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. How about you ceasing your inflammatory name calling then?

No human being is illegal.

On edit, our president is the one who said they were doing jobs Americans wouldn't do.

[jerry611]

32. Then what do you want to call them?

They crossed the border illegally. They are not legal citizens of the United States. No nation on this planet allows you to just walk in without permission. In fact that violates international law. Every nation has a right to secure and monitor their borders. They have the right to determine who is allowed to enter.

There is nothing in the constitution that says it applies to foreign nationals. And the writers of the 14th amendment made that quite clear. So has the Supreme Court.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. They are human beings

How sad that you would even ask that question.

[Dr. Jones]

47. Human beings who are breaking U.S. law by sneaking into our country.

Human beings is too broad - Charles Manson is a human being too. But more specifically, he's a criminal.

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. So I take it you didn't read any of my brazillion posts

explaining WHY they come here illegally???

Nice comparison - to Charles Manson? Smooth move Dude. And I thought just maybe you wanted to have a reasonable discussion. Oh well.

Enjoy your brief stay.

I'm putting you back on ignore.

:hi:

Peace

[LostinVA]

64. So,,, you are comparing Charles Manson to an "Illegal" Mexican

Yup, okay. Your logic makes me sooo believe your argument. Whatever. Guess that lady who just shoplifted a loaf of bread is the same as Manson. I mean, she IS a criminal.

[treestar]

129. For the millionth time, they are not criminals

Just for sneaking into our country illegally.

Yeah, in a dark alley late at night I'd rather run into Charles Manson than someone whose worst offense against society is violating the immigration laws.:sarcasm:

[anewdeal]

132. they are not criminals like Charles Manson

but entering a country illegally is still a crime, and they are therefore criminals.

[RaleighNCDUer]

89. The fact that the constitution references "persons" in some places

and "citizens" in others makes it clear that many of the constitutional provisions apply to everyone - that only where it specifies "citizens" does it apply to only citizens.

[DeaconBlues]

140. They should be called what the vast majority of them are:

Mexican citizens.

[Dr. Jones]

40. You're absolutely right.

Bush WAS the first to spew that insincere rhetoric. But I was saddened to hear that the illegals picked it up and started to use it frequently, as if that had anything to do with the truth. Personally I think Fox says this too in Mexico in his own efforts to push his own people across the border.

Okay, no illegal...how about, "those who are in our country illegally?" Or, "those who are in our country against the laws of our land?" Or, "those who don't have the proper documentation to be in our country pursuant to our current immigration laws?"

What do THEY want to be called that would be more PC?

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. Undocumented immigrants is more kind

I call them human beings.

[Dr. Jones]

55. That's disingenuous.

That's like saying Bush is a U.S. president, but you prefer to call him a "human being." He's anything BUT! He's actually a criminal, but that's another topic.

Undocumented workers are in our country illegally. Saying "undocumented worker" is simply a clever PC ruse to hide their illegal status.

[noamnety]

131. The power of words

If you want an honest debate, you have to avoid hate speech.

"Illegals" is hate speech. As a label, it is designed to dehumanize people. It's no better than gook or raghead. Its goal, as a part of language, is to remove the human aspect from the equation.

If you want an honest debate, you will use language that acknowledges their position as victims of economic oppression, and as people struggling to provide the basics for their families.

"Illegal" sets them off as a separate subhuman category, in a way that I'd venture to guess you would never use to describe a rich white American male. When is the last time ANYONE on this board has referred to Cunningham or Ken Lay as "illegals"?

We don't. We (and by "we" I mean "you") reserve that rhetoric for those brown skinned poor folks. There are implications in that, and it's the reason people who use that phrase SOLELY to refer to foreigners are labeled xenophobic and racist. I would challenge you to post in other non-immigration threads for one week, at the same rate you've been posting in these threads. And each time you refer to a person who has broken a law - no matter WHAT the law is, refer to them not by name, not as "a corrupt politician", but only as an illegal.

When is the last time you referred to the employers of undocumented workers as illegals? Aren't they just as illegal? Can you point me to one post where you define the employers as "illegals"? Not a post where you say employers who have done an illegal thing, but a post where you just call them that as if it's the sum of their entire identity.

[Ms. Clio]

117. "insincere rhetoric"

LMAO.

Seriesly.

[Critters2]

72. So have immigrants

on signs they were carrying in the demonstrations.

[RaleighNCDUer]

56. Funny, I've never heard them say they do jobs that Americans are

too lazy to do.

What I have heard is they do jobs Americans will not do. Will not do, because the compensation will not support an American life style. If McCain's legendary lettuce pickers WERE getting $50/hr, you can bet there would be plenty of native born lettuce pickers in this country. But when the picking pays by the bushel, and the end result works out to $3.00/hr, OF COURSE you won't find Americans who will do that. And they don't need to because as American citizens they can do better.

Even in such as the building trade, where it's claimed American don't want to do the work -- it is the fact that the immigrant labor will work for $7.00/hr, because they are living a half-dozen to an apartment and can afford to accept that wage, while the American-born laborer rightfully expects $12/hr for the same work -- and the corporation that pays them chooses those they can exploit. If the immigrant and the American workers were both in the same union, getting the same pay, nobody would be squeezed out except the incompetent. Of course, most the problem is in the so-called 'right to work' states where there is little to no union capability to stand up the the corporate interests.

This is very clearly a labor issue, and the workers and the unions should jump on it.

[Bridget Burke]

67. Most of the "inflammatory rhetoric" does not come from immigrants.

It comes from those who wish to deflect all blame from the corporate employers who are screwing US workers, too.

Bring up the Minutemen & you bring up immigration. Also Nazi skinheads & inbred neo-Confederates.

[Dr. Jones]

87. Thank you for at least answering my question,

but to say that inflammatory rhetoric does not exist on the side of the illegals is naive. It exists on both sides. So how do we deal with it in order to bring the two groups together is all I'm saying.

First step is to acknowledge the inflammatory rhetoric and deal with it. Second step is reconciliation. Third step is unification, and fourth step is organization against Corporate America.

How does that sound to you? Can you take that first step?

[Bridget Burke]

96. You have no interest in bringing anyone together.

And you are the last one who should be complaining about inflammatory rhetoric.

[Dr. Jones]

104. Why are you so belligerent? And why do you attack me? Am I a human being?

Geesh, give me a break, please! You made some good points and raised a good proposition that we should join forces against the real enemy, the American corporations, and yet you still continue to attack me! I have been willing to have a friendly discourse with you regarding how to accomplish this, but am I so wrong to have assumed you would desire the same?

So odd how people claim that undocumented workers who are here illegally are just human beings, and yet those who disagree with your position on the immigration issue, no matter how hard we try to have a civil debate with you, are far less than human in your eyes!

Anyways, if we can get past the personal attacks, great. If not, it's a vicious circle with endless attacks and reprisals. I prefer a civil discourse that may result in some kind of understanding on both sides, and some ideas on how to resolve the matter.

[Bridget Burke]

115. Some of your posts are relatively sane....

But you keep adding links to Right Wing sites.

Bored now.

[ComerPerro]

20. Oh, yeah, cause that's all I hear those racist pricks talking about

oh, wait, nevermind. I've never heard them say anything even remotely close to that.

[Skidmore]

22. If you have concerns about labor issues, step forward and

speak over them. Help replace those racist slurs with constructive dialogue about how to improve the plight of the worker here without sacrificing our nation's sovereignty. For those of you who keep pushing this no-borders concept, it will never succeed because man is tribal by nature. That type of globalism only plays into the agenda of the corporations which then become beholden to noone.

[Dr. Jones]

31. WELL SAID...See "The Corporation"...Stop the FTAA...

www.stoptheftaa.org

[ComerPerro]

35. It doesn't serve the interest of workers to pretend that

the minutemen are doing them any favors.

Once the borders are sealed, maybe they will move on to another pet project, like eliminating the minimum wage, or pressuring blacks and hispanics to move out of upscale white suburbs...

[LostinVA]

66. You got it

[Skidmore]

76. Who's saying that?

Perhaps it is time for Democrats to step up and speak for the American worker again.

[ComerPerro]

85. Well, uh, you are. By saying they are "filling the void"

[Bridget Burke]

110. Must be a pretty big "void"

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. LOL

Smart kid you are. :)

[Maestro]

75. I can not believe some progressives are talking like this.

There has to be trolls here. I admire you for debating them though. :hi:

[proud2BlibKansan]

80. Yes some have to be trolls

They definitly are NOT progressives. As for debating them, remember we are educators and have a duty to educate. - And not only children.

But hey, let those who know not the facts and wish to spout ignorance rear their ugly heads. Many DUers are starting to pay attention to the (yes, I am going to say it) RACIST rhetoric. I definitely feel more hopeful today than I did a few days ago.

[Dr. Jones]

84. VERY UNFAIR! So all progressives have to think exactly the same as you?

Is that what you're saying? And if they don't think the same way as you do they're automatically trolls?

How is this any different from the Nazi skinhead racists you so love to compare pro-immigration-reform folks to?

[Maestro]

123. But you seem to miss the point as well.

We are for immigration reform. We are not for attacking the exploited worker.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Not really the Minutemem are a buch of moslty white

zenophobes. If in their little addled racist brains they had made that connection I wuold be very impressed... after all it involves empathy, which they don't have

That said, The Dems have not stepped into the breech, which means... we are ready for a third party

[LostinVA]

60. They are bringing focus on their dislike of "Illegals"

They are showing their racism. Some of them try to wrap it up in helping the American worker, bit most don't... and when they try it, the wrapping comes off pretty quickly.

[Skidmore]

9. Serving as a megaphone for their frustration and

anger. I am convinced that this issue will be the deciding factor in the election. Dems have gamed this one wrong. The Rs played a race card again and deflected the discussion away from outsourcing, bad trade policies, corrupt business practices, and the selling of America. As a party, we are missing an opportunity to address the concerns of OUR OWN CITIZENS.

[Howardx]

15. serving as a megaphone ?

alert me when they hold a protest outside tyson corp hq instead of home depots where day workers try to make some money.

[ComerPerro]

18. No kidding. They are just self-serving

and most of them are just trying to live out their "Soldier of Fortune" fantasies.

[Skidmore]

19. Well, do you see our esteemed party leaders standing forth

with workers anywhere? I'm saying that these Minutemen have stepped forward and are now serving as one of the few active outlets through which workers here some of their concerns addressed.

[Howardx]

24. can you be more specific?

i have seen nothing to indicate anything from the minutemen other than disliking the brown people, have they held ANY rallies at ANY corporate hq's? asked their members to boycott any companies products due to the use of illegal labor? anything other than attacking the immigrants themselves? nothing will change with this issue till the megacorps are made to pay for their exploitation of the illegals.

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. Good question

I can't believe some of the stupid crap people are posting these days.

[Bridget Burke]

5. Some other fans of the Minutemen

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2005/08/minutemen-home-for-extremists_08.html

What have the Minutemen done for Labor lately? In fact, there's no evidence that many of them even work.

[Skidmore]

11. Does it make the concerns of the American worker any less valid

because some fringe group decides that they need to be bullyboys? No, the concerns are there and are real. The issue will not go away because we don't speak over those who will to provide a more constructive message.

[Dr. Jones]

7. Got my vote on that one, Skidmore.

I've long been arguing this very same thing, but unfortunately one who takes this "controversial" stance must be willing to endure all manner of insults including getting smacked with "racist" and "xenophobic" labels. Really the American middle class worker has been very hard-hit with insourcing, outsourcing, and illegal immigration.

Here on DU, it seems the illegal immigration debate splits right down the middle. Those who see the need to protect the American worker and enforce our immigration laws and borders, and those who seem to favor open borders and protections for illegals rather than U.S. middle class workers.

[RaleighNCDUer]

86. No, Dr Jones, there is a third way --

protecting the immigrants as workers, and seeing they are not exploited creates parity with native-born workers -- the corporations cannot use the immigrants to undercut American workers. If you were an American employer and could choose between an employee that worked under the table for $5.00/hr less than another worker, and could avoid paying for benefits for that first worker, which would you hire? Then again, if you had a choice between two workers, both to be paid the same wage and accorded the same benefits, but one only spoke a foreign language and the other spoke English, which would you choose?

Eliminate the benefits to employers hiring undocumented workers, and the undocumented workers will not be able to compete with the native born. If they cannot compete, the rate of immigration will slow back to levels that existed before the 80s.

Is that so hard?

[Skidmore]

92. Creating parity for illegal immigrants will only work IF

it is combined with punishing employers who break the laws AND demanding that other nations we trade with adopt humanitarian labor practices before we trade with them. We can live without cheap doodads to accomplish that. Unless other nations also treat their citizens with dignity and equity, nothing will change. This is the point you all keep missing in what I am saying. Until this happens, these people will continue to be exploited--here and in their own nations. Believe me, they don't come here for our freedoms anymore. AND I do view those who will not deal with problems these workers experience in their own nations as contributors to the problem. The other face of exploitation.

BTW, I do want to clear up something that has been implied on this thread, not necessarily by you--but by others. I am neither a racist or a xenophobe. I have lived abroad for better than a decade and travelled extensively. I am bilingual. I have been married to two different immigrants, and have children by one. Both of these men came here legally, after filing the appropriate paperwork and obtaining the sponsorship they needed. One of them was fairly well off, and the other came from a very poor family. Both did what the law required of them.

[RaleighNCDUer]

94. That was what the so-called "reagan amnesty' was supposed to

do. The Democratic Congress pushed through the amnesty, but was unable to enforce the provisions that penalized those who hired undocumented workers. Then, as the Repub administration was throwing all its efforts into undermining organized labor the whole NAFTA movement got started -- what Clinton signed with a Repub congress was something that was started by a Repub with a Democratic congress -- and the fair trade aspects wound up on the cutting room floor.

You're right, a simple amnesty will do no good at all -- it must be accompanied by eliminating NAFTA and CAFTA, re-negotiating the trade agreements with each individual nation, particularly with Mexico, and by strengthening the role of the unions in ensuring equity for all workers -- if a worksite insists on using undocumented labor, they should be picketed, as well as investigated. Don't let them use the undocumented as scabs. When the corporations cannot exploit the workers either here or in their home countries, the problem will fix itself.

[proud2BlibKansan]

137. Excellent explanation!

I fear that as long as we have repukes running this country, the corporations/employers will be held blameless by our govt. So this is one more reason to vote them out in November.

[Sydnie]

8. That's what they want you to think

but with such great comments as "fruits of the poison tree" referring to the children born in this country ... American Citizens at that (whether you subscribe to the "anchor baby" controversy or not, they are Americans) and other such intellectual zingers as "Go hiom and take a bath" being chanted by the minutemen supporters ... I can do without their support.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. Well, break out the sheets and pointy hats to save "labor".

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren Stupidity]

36. No actually it is pro-minutemen = pro fascist. nt.

[Berserker]

42. The dark side of DU

rears it's ugly head every time one of these threads get posted. Anyone that is for the American middle class worker and that want our borders protected is labeled a racist,a nazi,white supremacist and many other names. If they would only open their eyes to the big picture and see they are siding with the bush administration for open borders and cheap labor they might not be so quick to post pictures of the KKK or nazi flags. What are they going to call the military members when they are called in to protect our borders? Are they going to protest them also? Are they racist or KKK members no they are patriots protecting our borders.

[Dr. Jones]

51. Yes, very very true.

For more on the Bush FTAA open borders plan:
www.stoptheftaa.org

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. The big picture is that these workers are being

exploited by greedy corporations. Why do you guys always leave that out of your argument? This is NOT a battle between American workers and undocumented immigrants. The enemy are the employers who exploit the undocumented. Forcing the employers to follow the law, penalizing them severely when they don't and passing fair wage legislation will go a lot farther toward solving this problem than foaming at the mouth and demanding that 12 million people are rounded up and sent back across the border.

See, we are for the American middle class too. And we want our borders protected too. Where we differ is that we see these immigrants as human beings and we want the employers penalized, not the workers.

[Howardx]

58. they want to demonize the immigrants thats why

instead of placing the blame squarely on the employers, would they come here if no one would hire them? i doubt it. you can couch your language in a concern for the middle class or the worker but to me its straight up racism driving this debate which only benefits the corps. played like a fish hook line and sinker.

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. Oh I agree completely

Veiled racism. Sickening. The repukes have had it down for a couple decades now. Looks like it is spreading over to the Dem side.

[Howardx]

65. thats what a "move to the center" will do for you

n/t

[Greyhound]

83. Haven't we burned this straw man enough yet?

There is, and has been for quite some time, a consensus that the solution is to make the potential employers stop employing them. This also makes the rounding up and deportation of 12 million (actually it's closer to 20 million) unnecessary in addition to being impractical. It also obviates the need to build a wall along, or mine, our border, station the US military, or any of the other hysterical proclamations made by both sides in this non-issue.

[proud2BlibKansan]

105. I don't see it as a strawman at all

I also don't see any consensus. Not as long as DUers call them 'illegals' and 'aliens' and demand that all 12 million be deported, there is NO consensus. And most of the people here who share these views with the minutemen never mention the employers' role and instead rant about massive deportation. They continue to view the undocumented immigrants as the enemy. I won't be in consensus with that viewpoint EVER.

[Greyhound]

139. In the words of Aristotle "What is, is."

the only people calling for the "rounding up and subsequent deportation" of the illegals are a small minority, about the same numbers that are crying over the non-issue of terminology. The majority here know, support, and have called for, the penalizing of the employers as the solution to this issue. The agenda driven screamers on both sides are engaged in a meaningless debate over two fallacious arguments, neither of which is a solution, merely a distraction.

[midnight]

114. I would say that's the best plan for this issue that I have read.

In fact I would say that you have the big picture.

[Skidmore]

16. That is not what I said! If you would read carefully instead of react,

you would see that my argument is that the Democratic party has missed a golden opportunity to assert itself as the party representing the working person, and should have done this instead of leaving a void in which other more dysfunctional people have thrust themselves.

[Warren Stupidity]

43. By joining into the thinly disguised xenophobia

on the side of the xenophobes, alientating a solid democratic voting base, the hispanic vote, to pander to the white male red state suburban/rural vote, a voting base that hasn't been democratic in 30 years? Yeah that makes a lot of sense. I'm sure the fundaloon freepoids are all going to vote Democratic if we just deport enough Mexicans.

The Democratic Party ought to demand strict enforcement of labor regulations, ought to demand that all of the stupid 'free trade' agreements we signed over the last 15 years be re-evaluated and reformed to be fair trade agreements protecting worker and environmental rights and protecting the social fabric of the less developed nations, and in doing so our own social fabric. The Democratic Party ought to be in favor of a normalized legal guest worker program that recognizes that the people of el norte live and work on both sides of the border and have done so for 300 years. The Democratic Party is the party of all working people in this country, not just those who are white and non-hispanic.

[Dr. Jones]

59. I agree with some of what you are saing,

but you have to remember that many Americans, not just Repugs, are angry about the illegal immigration problem.

Furthermore, guest worker programs/amnesty would only encourage more illegals to come into our country, thus overrunning our hospitals, schools, etc. and bankrupting our state and local governments.

[girl gone mad]

71. Do you have any idea...

how offensive and ridiculous that is?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

82. No. Please point out the "offensiiveness and ridiclulous".

If you mean the racists and xenophobes who trumpet racism and xenophobia under cover of concern for the "working man" are offended, I certainly hope so.

[DeaconBlues]

141. when you have absolutely nothing to add to an argument

trot out the same old irrelevant picture. Bravo!!!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. Filling the void left by the Democratic party?

You mean that void the Democrats left in the south in the mid 60's?

[Orrin_73]

21. Jim Gilchrist's son is a mexican

He is by no means a racist.

[Howardx]

28. strom thurmond had a black daughter

still he was a racist. how could gilchrists son be a mexican? isnt he an american?

[jerry611]

38. Jeb Bush has a Mexican wife

He's a Nazi too?

What I hate more than anything are people that use the race card as a means to gain some kind of artificial moral high ground. If calling someone a racist is the only way you can win an argument...you've already lost.

[Howardx]

49. just pointing it out

that a "mexican" son is no indication of his racist tendencies. the whole minutemen schtick is racist and i dont care what you have to say about me losing the argument.

[Orrin_73]

100. mexican american!

[NNN0LHI]

30. Yea and the Swiftboaters stepped into the void left by...

...the likes of unpatriotic leftists like John Kerry. Oh, my I just don't know what came over these Democrats lately.

Don

[kenny blankenship]

34. Argue for a pro-labor stance on immigration-w/o-endorsing the minute men

(mīn-`ūte, as in very small, tiny).
The Minute Men are an unacceptably militant ultra-nationalist organization that are transparently racist in motivation, if not avowedly racist.

It's possible to argue for what you want, which seems to be a fairer deal for working people in America, WITHOUT tainting yourself with agreement or alignment with the Nativist militia groups.

[Skidmore]

44. Who's endorsing the Minutemen. I' m just pointing out

that there is a noticeable deafening silence out there from other more traditional voices for the worker. Rs argue for business and exploitation, while the unions are God knows where, and the Dems are more concerned with navelgazing. All I said was that frustrated American workers are going to the one group that is willing to voice their concerns now.

[earth mom]

37. I agree-the Working Class and the Middle Class are being attacked.

Bush Co is working night and day to break the back of the Working Class and Middle Class with Outsourcing, CAFTA/NAFTA, Union Busting and-Yes-Illegal Immigration. We must oppose them and the businesses that profit from oppressing workers every chance we get :grr:

However, if the Minutemen really want to save American jobs, they should be confronting businesses who are guilty of illegal hiring practices with their presence. What the Minutemen are doing now will not change a thing.

[Dr. Jones]

91. I can see that...hmmmmm...

However, if the Minutemen really want to save American jobs, they should be confronting businesses who are guilty of illegal hiring practices with their presence.

That argument does have some merit...however, their principal cause is helping to protect our borders. But then again, I have heard of Minutemen taking pics of the illegals and yelling "illegal" to them in various U.S. cities...

You know, I think some people here ought to know that we're all learning as we go here. I would very much love to see the personal attacks and "racist" and "xenophobe" attacks stop, because maybe some people DO in fact change their positions or see something in a new light.

Not that I've changed my own position, but sometimes people with whom I disagree DO in fact bring up some good arguments, some of which I've never thought of before. And what we really need is understanding on both sides.

Guess what I'm trying to say is Chill! Let's really make an effort to keep the personal attacks, the insinuations, the judgements, the insults, and the snide comments to a minimum. We're all here to learn and grow and a peaceful environment is better than an acrimonious one.

[earth mom]

138. I hope you don't think I'm attacking you.

Because I'm not. I think I have supported many of your posts about this subject.

However, I just don't think patrolling the borders is going to work. At one time, I thought it maybe might work, but realized that they only way to get our jobs back is to go after businesses-large and small. They are the ones behaving in a sneaky and underhanded way by luring illegal immigrants here in the first place with the promise of cut rate jobs.

I see this as akin to going after a drug addict living on the street INSTEAD of going after the mega drug dealer living large in a mega mansion. Going after the little guy just doesn't work because he is a victim who has been exploited. Just as the illegal immigrants and our citizens are. Both are at the mercy of these greedy opportunistic businesses.

More than anything, these greedy businesses need to be stopped. Because if they aren't stopped, there will still be a flood of illegal workers coming here no matter how many minutemen or guards are at the border. And everything will only get worse-for everyone.

[BiggJawn]

48. They don't speak for ME!

Contrary to what some folks may think, I'm NOT a racist mutha-fuckin' Klansman!

They don't rerpresent the American worker by trying to keep "illegals" out, they represent and promote a racist XENOPHOBIA.

[Skidmore]

52. And they don't speak for me either, BiggJawn.

Right now, in terms of labor issues, no one really speaks for me.

[jerry611]

57. Are you claiming we have no right to control our border?

Name one nation on this planet that allows you to just walk in without any permission and protest for rights while waving foreign flags in the streets... Name just one!

We have a right as a sovereign nation to control who enters our country.

I dont support the minutemen, but I also don't support illegal immigration. If you are here illegally, I say go back to Mexico and wait in line like everyone else. And I want the border secured. There is all sorts of criminal activity on the Mexican border. Drug gangs and cartels operate back and forth. Human trafficking, terrorists, you name it...it happens on that border. And it needs to be stopped.

[BiggJawn]

77. So vigilanties are the answer?

I don't disagree with anything you say, but for some self-appointed bunch of rednecks to declare that they speak for me is more than I can stomach.

One thing that bothers me is OK, so we shut off the supply of cheap under-the-radar labour from south of the rio. What's to say that the Capitalists won't keep squeezing the upper-lower class (used to be the Middle Class several years back) until we have rosy pink white people shoveling guts and cleaning debutant puke out of hotel bathtubs for $3 an hour?

Maybe we could contract out securing the border to the former East Germans. they did a pretty damn fine job of securing miles and miles of miles and miles. Guard towers, plowed ground, dogs, minefields, hell Halliburton would just LOVE to get that sub-contract!

[Bridget Burke]

78. "The Moral Physics of Immigration" by Dan Kowalski

Not everyone is flocking to our shores and borders, despite what Lou Dobbs and Tom Tancredo say. The fact is that 98 percent of the world's people are "stayers," content (more or less) to live and die where they where born.

But immigration law is about fear, not facts. Prior to the 1870's, we had no immigration law at all--de facto "open borders." Then we began to bar criminals prostitutes and the Chinese (the Chinese Exclusion Act lasted until 1943), and in the 1920's we enacted, for the first time, numerical quotas.

Those numerical quotas were as much out of whack then as they are today with respect to the way real people live, love, work, study and travel. And that out-of-whackness creates, by legislative fiat, the "illegal alien" phenomenon. We could, with the stroke of a pen, adjust the quotas and the categories to make them objectively rational, or close to it, thus "solving" the immigration "problem." .....

There is nothing in the Constitution about visas, immigration, or border control. (Citizenship and naturalization are mentioned, but those are legally and logically separate matters.) Our immigration laws were made up out of whole cloth, based on a fuzzy "sovereignty" or "inherent powers" model (and we've seen how successful the "inherent powers" gambit has been for President Bush in the foreign affairs arena).

From the current issue of The Texas Observer. This article is not online, but there's more of interest here: www.texasobserver.org /

Of course, any good Texas Democrat can read the whole thing--since they already have a subscription to the Observer.

[girl gone mad]

79. I think most of the people you are arguing with here..

don't live anywhere near the border and have no personal experience with the crime problems coming into our country or the very sharp decline in wages that skilled laborers have suffered.

People may call me xenophobic, but I have direct experience from having lived right next door to an apartment building taken over by members of the Mexican Mafia. I witnessed much criminal activity, and saw the burden this activity put on local law enforcement. I had property stolen and my own apt. broken into and ransacked. My current neighbors are legal immigrants from Mexico. He is a farmer and frequently complains about illegal immigration. One of my relatives is a counselor who works with women who have trafficked as sex workers. Guess where they are coming from?

The ultimate solution is to encourage reform in Mexico, but until that reform happens, we need to protect our borders.

[proud2BlibKansan]

81. So you believe that all undocumented workers are

like the ones you had the misfortunate experience of living next door to? And sex workers come only from south of the border?

I heard the exact same things you said in your post from white folks in the 60s who didn't want to let Negroes buy houses in their neighborhoods.

We had crime and sex workers before we had Hispanic immigrants and we will have those problems no matter how we solve this immigration dilemna. To blame these things on immigration is just ignorant.

[Bridget Burke]

98. I live in Houston, Texas.

But somehow I don't share your beliefs.

[Dr. Jones]

101. I think it's wrong though to discount somebody else's experiences.

You may not share their beliefs, but it would be disingenuous to completely discount their experiences altogether.

[Bridget Burke]

103. So don't discount mine.

And you should stop discounting everybody else's.

[Dr. Jones]

93. In general though, would you say Japan is racist for policing its borders?

How about Saudi Arabia? Are they racist for policing their borders? Or China, Russia, or Iran? Is the entire world full of racists simply because they police their borders?

You see, it's not just the American worker. It also has to do with national security.

[BiggJawn]

97. Why are there so many people here sticking up for the Minutemen?

I don't get it.

OK, so in these various counties you mentioned, WHO is responsible for policing the borders? How about Japan, is it a government function, or is it a rag-tag of ignorant former-sarimen who think immigrants are "stealing" their jobs? How about Saudi Arabia? is it the police, or is it a bunch of bored Saudi "princes" in their Land Rovers?

Big difference between the Border Patrol keeping the border and a bunch of Bubba NRA members who probably don't care that much for people who don't speak the more backwater dialects of "Murrikan".

[Dunvegan]

50. We need to resurect and reform unionism.

That would give workers a VOTING BLOC (which is what the Religious Right is to the Republicans) and put our voices out there strongly again.

Sorry...without a New Unionism of some sort, the worker's voice is gone forever.

Posting on boards and voting all over the map doesn't trump lobbists and right-wing voting blocs.

[Skidmore]

53. Exactly, now one speaks for the worker and no one really

speaks for the small farmer. I really would like to see Minnesota's DFL party made the national party. I wish they would unlink themselves from the Dems right now and offer us an alternative to those who are willing to only serve big money.

[Bridget Burke]

68. You said the Minutemen speak for the worker.

In fact, that's the idea behind your OP.

[Skidmore]

74. I didn't say that.

I said that the Minutemen have provided a megaphone for those who have no others to speak for them. Like it or not, Dems have dropped the ball when it comes to the worker and labor issues.

[RaleighNCDUer]

88. Hear, hear. nt

[Shakespeare]

69. When I clicked on this thread, I thought it would say "....KKK"

Because that is the grand tradition of the Minutemen.

I agree with you that our party has dropped the ball on unions, but I disagree with your apparent stance on immigration. And I in NO way consider myself a "OneWorlder."

[progressoid]

73. Dropped the ball? Hell, Dems haven't even been at the game for

about a decade.

[ieoeja]

90. And, yet, organized labor is on the opposite side.

Most of what I have seen out of organized labor on the immigrant debate is that they want to see the immigrants granted legal status so they will stop undercutting the American worker.

[Dr. Jones]

95. If that ever happened, LEGAL immigrants and American workers

would unite against the illegals because both groups would be pissed as hell! Not to mention the massive job cuts companies would have to make because they can't afford pay everybody $11/hr. But LEGAL immigrants would very pissed off that illegals were shoved to the front of the line and granted this kind of status because they came into this country the wrong way.

[treestar]

127. Why is sparing their feelings such a big deal? They can't vote

if they haven't become citizens yet. Immigration is regulatory and will change from time to time. A lot of these Mexicans might have been here longer than they. They aren't legal because they can't be legal because we made laws rigid enough that they could not.

Sorry I have no pity parties for those who were lucky enough to fit into one of those rigid categories. And for most of them, it was pure luck. Being related to the right person or the out and out Visa Lottery. Even the ones that started on H-1Bs already had degrees and so were in a higher economic class before they even came.

All that just for their feelings? Because they'd be pissed? Because somebody else got lucky?

[Bridget Burke]

99. The unions would line up to enroll legal immigrants.

Latin America has a history of labor activism. And the immigrants are not "slaves"--as many here claim. They are proud & hard working.

All workers in the USA might begin to demand better conditions.
,

[Jim Warren]

106. Some are proud

Some are hard working. Some are proud and hard working.

Some are scammers, some are scofflaws, some are looking for an easy out, some are drug dealers.

Your posts on the subject have maintained this consistent romantic notion that you are able speak for the masses of immigrants, and as a whole, "They are proud & hard working."

That just is not so, nor is it possible to say for any group of 12-20 million people.

[Bridget Burke]

109. The ones interested in joining Unions fit that description.

I'm sure some of the immigrants are criminals. (Gosh, there were no drugs in the USA before!)

But I fail to see how any of them are looking for an easy out.

Thanks for following my posts. It's great to have fans!

[Jim Warren]

112. LOL, kinda hard not to notice your post on this topic

"I fail to see how any of them are looking for an easy out."

Yeah, you'd have to get that to see the picture clearly. Americans are such wimps.

[El Fuego]

116. Legal immigrants vs. illegal immigrants

Legal immigrants are usually at least middle class, educated, often professionals, who are are law abiding people.

Illegal immigrants are usually none of these things. They are the poorest people in their own countries, people who will risk their lives to get here because they have nothing to lose. They are much more likely than legal immigrants to be criminals.

This is why some people have a bias against ILLEGALS, as opposed to legally immigrated people, my point being that it has nothing to do with race.

I know it's not fair.

[treestar]

128. That's ridiculous. For all you know, Americans are statistically

more likely to be criminals.

[El Fuego]

136. Here are the statistics

Illegal aliens account for less than 5% of the U.S. adult population, but were 17% of the federal prison population in 2004, imposing a net cost of $1.8 billion in court and incarceration expenses. (Source: U.S. Congress)

I googled the numbers, but I don't need statistics because I see it in my own community. It is part of my everyday life.

South Florida is very international. The LEGAL immigrants personally I know and have known are attorneys, software engineers, tennis pros, teachers, nurses, doctors, small business owners etc. They are my friends, colleagues, and my own relatives. The legally immigrated people I personally know are not part of the criminal element. And, if we were just talking about these individuals, it would seem unthinkable to me that they not be allowed to enter the country. If they were the "immigrants" in question, I'd be one of the Open Border people.

The ILLEGAL immigrants in my community are part of a violent underworld. They commit a lot of home invasion robberies near my neighborhood. Every time I hear about a home invasion, I am thankful that I live in a gated community. The illegals are in violent gangs. My friend's nose was broken with a baseball bat when he was just walking down the sidewalk as part of a gang initiation. Illegals are involved in dog fighting rings, and they steal people's pets from their yards to use as training bait. They're involved in a lot of hit and run fatalities because they're driving illegally.

Legal immigrants enrich this country. Illegal immigrants often do not, because quite frankly, some of them were riff-raff back in their own countries. You need RULES and a LEGAL immigration process to keep the criminal element out. Of course we have plenty of homegrown crime, but we don't need to import more criminals.

I support amnesty for illegals who have lived here for years and have established lives. I just don't want open borders.

[Dr. Jones]

107. Most are proud and hard-working,

but unfortunately some bad apples have also snuck across our borders including potential terrorists, gang members (MS-13 in particular), drug kingpins, and hardened criminals.

To be fair, I think most people mean that the companies TREAT the workers like slaves, not that they ARE slaves. And it is this group that has the most deplorable working conditions in some circumstances (i.e., meatpacking plants).

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

111. The AFL-CIO and SEIU, support amnesty.

http://www.aflcio.org/aboutus/thisistheaflcio/publications/magazine/commonbonds.cfm

Granting amnesty to hard-working immigrants who make significant contributions to their communities and workplaces. Many of these men and women are parents of children who are U.S. citizens by birthright. They should receive amnesty and be allowed to change their status to permanent residents and become eligible for naturalization.

http://www.socialistworker.org/2006-1/587/587_11_Immigration.shtml

SEIU Local 790, the big public-sector workers’ local in Northern California, passed a strong resolution calling for amnesty and supporting May Day actions. And the SEIU International also stepped forward to file a national unfair labor practice charge with the National Labor Relations Board on behalf of workers fired for participating in immigrant rights protests.

[Ms. Clio]

118. those commie bastards!!!!

(is the sarcasm thingie really necessary?)

[treestar]

126. If in theory they were all deported to starve in Mexico

What good would that really do? Do people really think these companies would obediently hire Americans (even if there are any). They'd move the factory to Mexico.

[Beacho]

102. My only question about the "They're Taking Our Jobs" excuse

Why wasn't this a problem in the nineties, when they're were MORE illegals than their are now?

Phony bullshit manyfactured crisis

Screw it, thread time

[Jim Warren]

108. Enforcement perhaps

Number of workplace arrests made by U.S. immigration authorities in 1997: 17,554

Number in 2003: 445

http://www.harpers.org/HarpersIndex2006-02.html

halfway down the page.

[Beacho]

113. I think if yu compare that to the econ numbers, then and now

You will get the real answer. Which would be scapegoating

Job outsourced? illagal immigrants!

Working longer hours? illegal immirgants!

healthcare costs out of control? illegal immigrants!

Johnny can't read? illegal immigrants!

etc, etc.

one more time PHONY......MANUFACTURED......CRISIS

[RoyGBiv]

122. Oh, bull ...

The racist jackboots of the 1880-1890's used this logic too while tearing apart Populism. At the time the line was that supporting equal rights for blacks hurt the American worker.

The so-called "Minutemen" are using the exact same tactics.

One can certainly raise legitimate questions regarding illegal immigration and its affect on the American worker, but that particular group isn't doing it. They're nothing but a bunch of racist thugs whose idea of "American labor" means "American *white* labor."

I am appalled to see this nonsense posted here.

[Trajan]

124. Some of the Minutemen LOVE Chocolate Milk ! ....

Arent they WONDERFUL ! ....

They have filled the gap left open by the Democratic Party, who have failed to mention chocolate milk ! .....

Cmon ....

One could EMBRACE migrant workers by LIFTING THEIR WAGES ! ..... and not allowing CORPORATE RIGHT WINGERS the ability to DEPRESS wages, using migrants as a wedge ....

You wanna improve the lot of us workers ? .... SUPPORT UNIONIZATION .... across the board ....

Hey: ... George Bush LOVES Denver Omelets: .. and SO DO I ! ....

I LOVE you George 'BS' Bush ! ..... :sarcasm:

[tomreedtoon]

134. Unions...another issue the Democratic candidates won't mention.

It isn't surprising that the Minutemen exist in a country run by the Bushies. I'd bet money that they have actually killed people trying to cross the borders, buried them, and no one has bothered investigating.

But since no Democratic candidate has expressed any passion to end this illegal sanction of vigilantes...or support for the right for laborers to organize...or protesting corporate sponsors who provide the Party money (say hello to Mr. Murdoch, Senator Clinton!)...I expect this game to go on for a long, long time.

[DeaconBlues]

142. And I bet illegal immigrants eat babies, too

You are posting inflammatory bullshit about the Minutemen that you have no evidence to back up. So I'll pull some nonsense out of my ass too.

What is true, however, is that every step of the Minutemen is followed by the government, the ACLU, etc. Yet there is absolutely no evidence that they have broken ONE law. Unlike the people who come here illegally, who by merely crossing the border are breaking the law. Not to mention the drug-runners, human smugglers, etc. who also are within this group.

Its funny that the arguments against the Minutemen are so thin people have to resort making up shit.

[tomreedtoon]

143. Wha'chu talkin' about, Willis?

"...every step of the Minutemen is followed by the government, the ACLU, etc."

Given the incompetence of the Bush administration, and the cavalier way prisoners are sent to foreign prisons without laws, do you really think it matters if the FBI is watching? Do you think anyone cares about the regular abuses in American prisons? And these guys don't even have the "professionalism" of prison guards like Lyndie England.

The guys toting those guns don't care about law, in any case. They signed up for the privelege of shooting nonwhites. (I've yet to see any black or Hispanic man involved in the Minutemen, although I'm sure Uncle Ruckus would be happy to sign up.)

[DeaconBlues]

145. "They signed up for the privilege of shooting nonwhites."

Post back when you have evidence for this nonsense. In fact, post back when you have evidence that the Minutemen have broken any laws. I have a feeling I'll be waiting a long time.

By the way, 20% of the Minutemen are from ethnic or racial minorities. Concern about the working class and the stability of our country knows no racial/ethnic boundaries. It seems that every one understands how serious a problem illegal immigration, except for the willingly uninformed corporatists here at DU.

[enki23]

135. racist bullshit is what the aristocracy *always* uses to divide labor

.

[Stephist]

144. If The Minutemen Are supported by the likes of Malkin and Dobbs...

I don't want them filling any voids for me thank you.

[Solon]

146. As long as they never get out of the void, I'm happy...

Bunch of fucking sick assed freaks.

[jonnyblitz]

147. support for the Minutemen on this board is nothing short

of PATHETIC and DISGUSTING! Progressives have NO BUSINESS supporting armed Right Wing vigilante groups for ANY REASON, no matter what your position on the immigration issue.

[anewdeal]

148. completely agree

it doesn't matter a Repuke believes in. THEY ARE WRONG. If you agree with the pukes THEN YOU ARE WRONG TOO.