My friendly arguement with a Pro-Life Democrat, and the results

[rpgamerd00d]

Me: Pro-Choice
Her: Pro-Life

Discussion:

Me: Its deeper than the right to an abortion, its right to privacy as well.
Her: All inflicted death is wrong: abortion, death penalty, assisted suicide and murder. Its all the same.
Me: At least you are against the DP, a lot of Repug pro-lifers are for it.
Her: Well, they are stupid then.
Me: Agreed. But a woman has the right to govern her own body, no one can force a choice on her. That is what its about.
Her: She can choose to murder a baby? How can that be legal?
Me: Its not a baby when abortion is legal. If the pregnancy goes too long, then it actually is already illegal to abort. You can only do it prior to that point of development, when its not yet alive.
Her: Its alive as soon as the egg is impregnated!
Me: Untrue. If the egg never attaches to the wall of the womb, then she woman will have her period and not become pregnant.
Her: Well, ok, then its alive as soon as it attaches.
Me: Again, not true. There is a difference between the signs of life, and life. A heartbeat is not life, its a sign of life. People with heartbeats are pronounced dead every day. The same is true for brainwaves. The test of life that doctors use for people is more than mere vital signs.
Her: But if nature takes its course, that baby is alive, and the abortion interfers with that natural process and kills the baby.
Me: Contraceptives defy the natural process to prevent pregnancy, medical advances are able to keep premature babies and physically deformed babies alive, and thats also "not natural". You cant use nature as a yardstick because we are Man, and we have technology which we use daily to defy nature.
Her: But if she makes that choice, it should be illegal just like murder.
Me: Murder is illegal and it happens every 3 minutes in our country. Making it illegal doesn't stop it, it just punishes the person for doing it. Do you want to punish women, or do you want to prevent abortion, what is your goal? Because you need to think about that before you jump to a conclusion as to a solution.
Her: I want to prevent abortion.
Me: Ok, well, abortion used to be illegal in this country, and when it was, MORE abortions occurred then than they do now that it is legal.
Her: More? How did they know that?
Me: When they say "back alley" they don't really mean in an alley. Records were still kept. And do you know why more abortions occurred when it was ILLEGAL than when its LEGAL?
Her: No, why?
Me: Because when it was illegal, a woman could not consult with anyone - family, spouse, friends, doctors, their priest/pastor, other women that had one - no one. They had to make the decision on their own without advice. Once it was legal, women consulted and talked about it and a lot of them change their minds due to the influences of those they consult with. If you make abortions illegal, all you'll do is increase the abortion rate, AND increase the harm to women who would then be getting the procedure from much more shady sources, with NO LEGAL RECOURSE to sue the doctor for malpractice should he harm her or even kill her in the process !!!
Her: Wow, I hadn't thought about that.
Me: If you want to actually achieve your goal of reducing and/or eliminating abortions, then you need to convince women to have the child, not make it illegal. Things like spousal notification, 24 hr waiting periods, mandatory councelling, etc. are all ideas that would help educate and inform women of their choices, which would reduce the abortion rate while still protecting women.
Her: I'll have to think about that.



Comments?

[TheGunslinger]

1. You should go on a national speaking tour!

Bravo.

[Rainscents]

2. Excellent!!! You've done very well!!!

:applause:

[FreedomAngel82]

4. You did a good job overall, but I didn't agree with

the part about notifing a spouse. What if the woman is in an abusive relationship with a husband and she knows the husband will kill her if she is found out? What if she's trying to get out of the relationship and while doing so finds out she is pregnant and can't afford to have the baby for whatever purpose? And I liked what you said about the heart beating and all that. There is a show I watch and they're doing a storyline of organ transplants and one little boy on the show got killed in a hit and run. He was still a live but only because of a machine. Without the machine he was totally dead. No brainwaves and he couldn't breathe on his own either. So I'm glad you pointed that out. Also, you should suggest she reads Jimmy Carters book "Our Endangered Values." He touches on abortion and the death penalty and how he came to supporting Roe v Wade. Maybe your friend will like his book. I'm reading it now and it's really great (I'm almost halfway through I believe).

[rpgamerd00d]

5. I didnt want to go into "Except this and that" unless I had to

Yes, there are exceptions, but the point remained the same.
:)

[FreedomAngel82]

15. I also wanted to add

that in 2004 I was curious as to why women have abortions so I googled and came across Planned Parenthood's website and they listed that according to survey's across the country there were ten top reason's why women have abortions. All except for three can be changed with societies help (those three are rape, incest and a medical issue). All the other reasons dealt with emotions and/or financial reasons. If you were to overturn Roe v Wade because of the reason's why women have abortions it won't change A THING. What your friend wants to do is put every single woman in jail who has an abortion. What if she already has young children? Who is supposed to take care of them? Especially if the father works and works a lot. It's really quite selfish. If you don't want an abortion than don't have one. If you know of a woman who is going to have one try to see why and see if there's a way you can help her out if she could change her mind about it. Putting women in jail for having an abortion is not going to change a thing. And what if it was a life threatning issue? I saw an interview with Teresa Heinz Kerry on 20/20 back during 2004 and she was asked about Roe v Wade and abortion. She said once she was pregnant with one of her children and the doctor told her she might have to make the choice to abort the child because it would be a life threatning issue and she already had a little child and a husband (when she was married to John Heinz obviously). She said she was glad she at least had the option to have an abortion since she obviously didn't want to leave her child and husband behind.

[firefox]

3. Most people are locked into their belief

And they know both sides of the argument. It is like perpetual controversy.

But my belief is this. If you are pro-life you can have your way and never have an abortion under the present system. Pro-choice does not inhibit your right to do as you want.

But under Pro-life, I cannot have my way if I want an abortion. You are imposing your belief on me.

If you are able to have your way, should I not be able to have mine?

[FreedomAngel82]

19. When I make decisions on a position

I remember this quote. It's always been with me and I don't know where it came from but it is: "Your rights end where my nose begins." It's like with gay marriage. Is something I have a view on going to stop someone else from having that right? I personally am pro-life but I'm also pro-choice. I'm pro-life in the policies I believe in that make actual life from caring about the economy, enviornment, public education and an opportunity for all, etc. It's not just about "saving the babies." So many fundies who claim the loudest they are pro-life than turn around and are against welfare, public education and doing anything about the enviornment and so quick to support war and the death penalty (which is quite weird to me). If you're going to be pro-life than mean it. It's like in the Bible in Matthew 5:37- Let your yes be your yes and no be your no. Anything else comes from the evil one. (I've been using that one a lot lately)

[enlightenment]

6. Pretty good, right until the end

You: "If you want to actually achieve your goal of reducing and/or eliminating abortions, then you need to convince women to have the child, not make it illegal. Things like spousal notification, 24 hr waiting periods, mandatory councelling, etc. are all ideas that would help educate and inform women of their choices, which would reduce the abortion rate while still protecting women."

I understand you're working to change a narrow mindset, but "things" like spousal notification, waiting periods, mandatory counseling and the like are ALL impediments to a woman's right to choose.

You can't argue that a woman has the "right to govern her own body" and then argue that she can only do it AFTER she has notified, waited, and been counseled.

Other than that -- like I said, pretty good!

[rpgamerd00d]

8. Yeah you figured me out! Its not that I believed in those things,

it was just examples to crack the shell.

[enlightenment]

12. Well, all I can say is Good Luck.

I would have rather tried to convince my "holy roller" grandmother (now dead) to accept scientific rationalism than open the mind of a strong "pro-lifer."

[hughee99]

7. Well said!

I have seen a few thread here that lead me to believe that some may take issue with support for spousal notification (I saw this early on in the Alito discussion), and I think others may take issue with MANDATORY counseling, but your argument for the most part is in line with my personal beliefs.

[FreedomAngel82]

23. I don't think it should be mandatory

I think it should be offered and there should be two options: one option is for those who are religious and those who are not. Even though I am a Christian I do not want to have any hidden agendas with a person. I don't want them to come to someone and need help and advice about an abortion and be preached to about Jesus. That's not what the person needs. They need PROFESSIONAL help (and to where they don't have to pay for it like these teen hotlines you hear about). If they want to have the religious point of view of it they can always go to a church or something like that. Most churches are always available.

[hughee99]

25. That was the biggest issue that i had...

For the most part, I agree with the OP. I don't have an issue with a 24 hour waiting period, and spousal notification (with some safeguards) isn't really an issue for me either. Counselling should be strongly recommended, but I wouldn't go so far as to make it mandatory.

[FreedomAngel82]

27. Again with the spouse thing

what if it's an abusive husband? What if she has no spouse or any man figure in her life?

[hughee99]

32. As I said, with some safeguards...

Safeguards for those who are in an abusive marriage. If she has no spouse, then you can skip the whole thing. I would say that it would have to be a spouse, and not just "any man figure" for it to apply.

[Horse with no Name]

9. I'm confused

Pro life means you value life. "I" am pro life by definition because I value the lives of babies that are already born. I value the life of our soldiers. I value the lives of the uninsured. I value the lives of people of other countries, races and colors. I even value the life of the people who fell through the cracks of society and ended up doing heinous things--and I do believe in life sentences without the possibility of parole.
Anti-Choice means that you don't want women to have a choice over their own bodies. I am Pro-Choice.
You friend isn't Pro-Life.
She is anti-choice.
Democrat or Republican. Doesn't matter. It is what it is.
Every life has a value. Maybe if we can get to a point in this world where we take care of every breathing person who has already been born, we can revisit taking care of the unborn.
But until then, a society does not have the right to intervene in a choice that one person has to live with and bear responsibility for.

[DanCa]

14. That's why I say I am Pro Neutral and demand examples from rwingers

when they ask me where I stand on things. Than if there brain cells connect I start hashing out my opinions of the whole arguement. Either they leave me alone or wind up agreeing me. What bugs me is that "prolife" is starting to sound alarming like a generic minded national cult er religion.

[Erika]

29. Beautiful post n/t

[CornField]

10. I'd also toss in the societal issues which lead to abortion

a lack of responsible/dependable/affordable childcare
lack of before and after school programs
inadequate maternity leaves/fear of losing one's place in career/school
lack of adequate prenatal healthcare

The bottom line is that women who feel more secure about society as a whole -- more secure of their ability to care and provide for a child - the less likely that woman is to seek an abortion.

[rpgamerd00d]

11. Good point, I've assimilated that one for next time :)

[AgadorSparticus]

37. I hope you'll post it when there is a next time!

I love what you told your friend. GREAT arguments--esp. the signs of life do not equal life part. BRAVO!!

I understand why you said what you did at the end (even if I don't agree with it). It's incentive for her to entertain the other great ideas you put forth. Otherwise, she'll dump everything and walk away with nothing. Baby steps. You are one smart cookie!

[Gloria]

13. I was with you until....

"you need to convince women to have the child, not make it illegal. Things like spousal notification, 24 hr waiting periods, mandatory councelling, etc. are all ideas that would help educate and inform women of their choices, which would reduce the abortion rate while still protecting women."

These are not IDEAS, these are impediments that are used by people who want to control women, or coerce women--spousal notification???? If you're being abused, you still have to notify the "spouse?"

[TimeChaser]

16. Try this:

Life doesn't begin, the sperm and egg are no less "alive" than a zygote. Hell, we lose "alive" cells all the time.

[FreedomAngel82]

26. And if that's the case

ask the friend if she thinks a man should masterbate and lose to that or should he just have sex to make a woman pregnant?

[Erika]

17. The question has to remain whether the woman or the govt

owns her reproductive rights and the life of the fetus.

Women are pretty educated. How about educating men to practice their own birth control?

Why isn't that mentioned?

[tocqueville]

30. the "right to privacy" is a typical construction

and the opposition to the government too

in a democracy a government has to DEFEND women's rights :

right to life, health, physical integrity
her freedom of making own decisions
the right to choose to be a mother WHEN she wants it

opposing abortion is jeopardizing all this rights that normally should be statuted in law
and not by a judicial translation of something written in a completely diffrent matter 200 years ago.

opposing abortion creates severe social problems that are harmful to society as a whole

therefore to protect women and society governments must legislate how abortions must be conducted
for the best of all. That's the position from the UN and most western democracies.

the "privacy stuff between her doctor" is only libertarian BS, aimed to avoid the ethical questions,
avoid to tell the fundies to STFU and avoid above all to pass a law in congress.

[LittleClarkie]

18. What about saying that there were fewer abortions under Clinton

than Bush. Or that there are fewer abortions in the blue states than the red ones. (I think that was true, if I remember the factoids that were rumbling around right after the election correctly)

There were fewer abortions under Clinton, because people had more hope then.

[Erika]

20. Good societal point

Women AND men who think they can offer the child a better life are more willing to allow it to be delivered.

Keeping men out of the discussion on birth control, conception, etc. absolutely burns me. It's like the woman conceived by immaculate conception.

Ask the child support divisions if fathers don't play a part.

[LittleClarkie]

21. Being the geek that I am, I generally say

that the woman is NOT a tribble. It does indeed take two.

[Extend a Hand]

31. So a man should be able to compel

a woman to have an abortion if he doesn't want to pay child support -- or opt out of paying?
Or a husband should have a right to compel his wife to conceive?
That's where you logic is going.

The man is always in the discussion-- he always has the right to take responsibility for birth control when he has sex-- or he can practice abstinance until he wants to have children.

Once intercourse-- Mr. Happy comes out and the choice is up to the woman.

[FreedomAngel82]

28. Correction

they had more money.

[LittleClarkie]

34. That would go along with the hope

Money was part of what I was thinking about when I said that they had more hope.

[Raster]

22. She is not Pro-Life. She is Anti-Choice. I do not tolerate the

anti-choice crowd trying to co-opt the pro-life moniker.

[Erika]

24. Who is she?

[Raster]

33. The female Anti-Choice Democrat that the post is about

or at least their conversation

[DemBones DemBones]

36. Then you're Anti-Life. . . If you get to say

what someone else is, then I get to say what you are.

But I personally believe in letting people describe themselves as they wish, so I'd be glad to call you Pro-Choice as long as you extend me the courtesy of calling me Pro-Life.

[Raster]

46. Choice or anti-choice. That's what it all boils down to. No other.

[DemBones DemBones]

35. I'm a biologist and the characteristics that indicate life

are 1) growth, 2) development, 3) need for and use of energy, 4) response to stimuli, and 5) the organism's ability to reproduce itself, when mature.

From the moment of conception, a zygote begins to grow, dividing into two cells, four cells, eight cells, etc., and it continues to grow, develop, and require and use energy obtained from the mother's blood via the umbilical cord. Response to stimuli is present at an early stage in development, and obviously the embryo will be capable of reproduction when mature. Therefore, an embryo is alive from the time the sperm penetrates the ovum and growth and development begin.

It's incorrect to say that an embryo is not alive until it implants in the uterus.

It is correct to say that an embryo that does not attach to the uterine wall will almost always be "miscarried," often without the woman knowing she had conceived. (I say "almost always" because there are rare cases in which an ectopic pregnancy proceeds to term, with the placenta attached somewhere in the abdominal cavity rather than inside the uterus.) Most embryos that do not implant are defective in some way that would prevent their survival whereas most embryos and fetuses that are deliberately aborted are normal babies.

From the moment of conception, the embryo's sex and physical appearance are determined by its genes. This is true for humans and all other living things. "Pro-choicers" have used a lot of inaccurate terms, telling people that an embryo is just a blob of cells, etc., saying an embryo is no more alive than dead skin cells, and other ridiculous claims.

By the way, those "statistics" about illegal abortions are lies that were made up by early advocates of legalized abortion, according to one of them, Dr. Bernard Nathanson, who has since changed his views regarding abortion. They wanted to convince the public that large numbers of women were having illegal abortions and that many of them were dying so they just made up numbers. The only accurate numbers about abortion would come from hospitals that had to treat women suffering the aftereffects of a botched abortion. Those numbers weren't large enough to be dramatic and convincing so they added a very large fudge factor.

The early advocates for legalized abortion emphasized allowing abortion to save the life of the mother. They also sold legalized abortion as a panacea for many social problems, assuring the public that legalized abortion would result in less child abuse, less spousal abuse, fewer divorces, and fewer out-of-wedlock births. They were wrong on all counts.

Liberals who'd been protesting for the rights of minorities and against the killing in Vietnam and the killing in execution chambers signed on to promoting the killing of unborn babies. Soon after Roe, if not before, abortion was being promoted as "a woman's right." It always nagged at me that abortion was killing babies, not just removing tissue, but for years I toed the pro-choice line, like most liberals. I finally had to admit the truth to myself after years of teaching biology students the characteristics of life; I had to admit to myself that even in the first trimester, a human life is present. Abortion kills a human being. Just like war, just like capital punishment, just like lynching, just like murder.

I do agree with your last paragraph: "If you want to actually achieve your goal of reducing and/or eliminating abortions, then you need to convince women to have the child, not make it illegal. Things like spousal notification, 24 hr waiting periods, mandatory councelling, etc. are all ideas that would help educate and inform women of their choices, which would reduce the abortion rate while still protecting women."

But are you not aware that the "pro-choice" forces are opposed to spousal and parental notification, 24 hour waiting periods, mandatory counseling, etc. ? In my state, they have fought hard against attempts to make it a legal requirement that a woman seeking an abortion should be provided information about the development of the fetus she is carrying. They're obviously afraid to let women know the truth: there's a living human being from the moment of conception, a human being that will grow and develop until ready to be born, unless his or her mother chooses to have her baby killed. An awful lot of women have listened to ill-informed and downright dishonest arguments and been convinced to kill their babies and that's a great tragedy.

If "pro-choicers" had been willing to work to make abortion rare, instead of just promoting abortion as a panacea, politicians might not have worked for thirty years to get "pro-life" judges appointed. Now it looks like Alito will be confirmed and then SCOTUS will overturn Roe. Then it will go back to states setting their own abortion laws, with many "pro-life" judges on the bench in every state. Maybe that's what has to happen to convince "pro-choicers" to help women choose to be informed and use contraception properly and consistently.

[eridani]

38. Killing in self-defense ought to be acceptable

Abortion reduces the pool of terrorists.

All the countries that produce or sponsor what the West calls terrorists are characterized by high fertility and the low status of women. This is as true for the Palestinian territories as it is for Afghanistan, just as it holds true for the conflict-prone regions in Africa. A high birth rate does three things that make war and terrorism more likely.

In Bangladesh, the public and private sectors worked together to get pills and condoms got into every village. Safe, early abortion became widely available. The birth rate plummeted. When I first went to the area in 1968 families had six children; today they average 3.3. In one rural area of over 600,000 where Dr. Zafrullah Chowdhury has been working to train village women to provide medical services and help the community, family size now averages just over two; exactly the same as in the United States. This is a country where people live on a dollar a day, where three quarters of the women are illiterate and where a tragic one in 15 children die in the first year of life, but family choices have become widely available. Despite these social and economic deprivations, Bangladesh is a more stable, less violent country than Pakistan.

In Pakistan we have seen the opposite story. The government family-planning services were badly organized and the private sector was not encouraged. Everybody knew that abortions were common, but only a few were honest enough to admit it. The birth rate remained high and the population is exploding. Karachi is a violent, gang-ridden city. Pakistan is only slightly larger than Texas, and in another 25 years it will have almost as many people in it as live in the entire United States. It is likely to become more and more unstable.

The United States spends a billion dollars a day on 'defense.' Family planning is another form of defense, and it just happens to be one other people want as well. We should be spending a billion dollars a year on international family planning. If we did, it would do a great deal to create more pluralistic societies, with more opportunities for women and youth. In short, it would help to bring long-term peace and stability to our planet.

For the whole article, see


http://216.239.33.104/search?q=cache:gOPTh4W4vkQC:www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/5458+tompaine.com+contraception+OR+abortion+%22status+of+women%22&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8

[sinkingfeeling]

40. Could you provide a bona fide study of miscarried 'embryos' to

prove your statement that they are mostly defective? How does the percentage of non-defective 'embryos' being miscarried stack up against defective 'embryos' being implanted? The studies I have seen indicate that the rate of non-implanted 'embryos' is over 66% within the human race, which would indicate a huge amount of defects!

An embryo does not become an embryo until around 13 days post-ovulation and is approximately the size of a pin head. (.2mm)

[bowens43]

39. I have never met a Democrt who isn't Pro-life.

I think by pro-life you went pro-fetus.

[Warren DeMontague]

41. Funny that, as you were advocating waiting periods & spousal notification-

(Two things I CERTAINLY can't get behind, BTW)

You didn't mention the fact that EVERY major anti-abortion organization in this country is also virulently anti-BIRTH CONTROL. If the "pro-life" crowd was really interested in reducing the numbers of abortions, do you honestly think they'd be egging on self-righteous, Jesus-drunk pharmacists who want to lecture rape victims and hold womens' birth control prescriptions hostage?

THIS is the tack to take with so-called "pro-lifers"- if you don't like abortion, don't have one, and help fight the right wing's war on legal, safe birth control. Not "spousal notification" and waiting periods and other state-mandated inanities which tell pregnant a woman that she isn't informed or capable of deciding ON HER OWN what to do with HER BODY.

[lukasahero]

42. Not sure I agree that the goal is to convince a woman to keep the baby

The goal should be to reduce unwanted pregnancies - through education and accessible birth control. In other words, help women not get pregnant in the first place.

Then we need to provide options for women who get pregnant in circumstances that are outside of their control - incest and rape. The argument you provide leaves us in a position where we advocate convincing a woman who is raped that she should keep the baby.

Finally, I firmly believe that this is a medical decision. If a woman is not allowed the privacy to make her medical decisions with her doctor, then who next will not be allowed to make their own medical decisions?

[Bluerthanblue]

43. Really well done- and even your last statement

has merit-, except that I would change it to what other replies have noted- that if you really want to reduce or eliminate abortions, then we have to make the option of adding another person to this world less of a crap-shoot- less of a burden, and (this is where the conservitives lose ALL credibility when the claim to 'care' about innocent life) be willing to, as a society, support through MONEY, TIME, and SERVICE- the lives of ALL children, regardless of 'whose' "responsible" for the conception and birth of the child.
Adoption, expecially of children born to women in less than 'ok' circumstances- due to financial, social, personal, physical, or relational issues, is very often not an honestly valid option. It is easy to say "If you can't handle a child, then at least put it up for adoption"- When people use that 'justification' to say that legislating against abortion is acceptable, then you should ask them if they understand how many children languish in foster care in this nation??? And how wounding, and often deadly that reality is- We are not talking a 'handful' a 'minority' we are talking about children that are willing to advertise and 'market themselves' in their desperate search for a forever home.- How can we mandate that a woman MUST give birth, and not do anything about the children that arrive, and are alread here, without having a family that they belong to, rather than a temporary (far too often 18yrs of a variety of 'temporary' homes).
No one LIKES abortion- But even though I am and always been 'pro-life' I do understand, and have compassion for women who feel the best 'choice' for the 'potential person' that has begun within them, is to not continue the journey through to actual birth.

You spoke really well, and non-agressively. You did a great job. I hope she DOES think hard about the different perspectives you planted in her mind.

[Hamlette]

44. there were MORE abortions when they were illegal? link?

I'm not sure that's true. And the word you were looking for is "viable".

You did a great job and I love the point that turned her...but I'd like to invite you to read Roe, it will give you more great arguments. (Balancing of rights).

[MsAnthropy]

45. Excellent! But the best way to prevent abortions is birth control

I'm amazed that she is so uniformed.

[slackmaster]

47. It's not just a matter of convincing women to have the child

Far more important IMO is to ensure availability of effective birth control methods, and most important of all EDUCATE young people of both sexes about how easy it is to get pregnant.

Beyond knowledge there is a need to get teens to THINK about the consequences of their sexual choices.

I know of a 17-year-old girl in my neighborhood who is having sex with her 19-year-old boyfriend. They are using the pull-and-pray method of birth control. Her mother confronted her a couple of days ago with the fact that she can easily become pregnant. The girl replied "That's not important." Both the girl and her mother are devout Christians and opposed to abortion. The mom, if the situation arises, would do everything in her power to stop her daughter from having an abortion even though she really doesn't want to become a grandmother now. Realistically, there is no way (other than marrying him or her) to get a young man or woman to stop having sex once he or she has started.

That girl is clearly not emotionally mature enough for sexual intercourse. She's somewhat naive and in denial IMO. But she "puts out" for her boyfriend so he doesn't dump her and find someone else. If I had a say I'd threaten to have the boy (not man) arrested for statutory rape unless he starts wearing condoms. But it's not MY choice and not my place to say anything about it.

[foreverdem]

48. I agree with just about everything you said

Except for the last part. Anytime you make anything mandatory, or impose any kind of block like a waiting period or the notification of someone else, you are interfering with the woman's choice, which is what it all comes down to.

[meow2u3]

49. One little-noticed consequence of legalized abortion, aka, choice

Fewer Democrats are being born and growing up to be good Democrats, especially black babies, who are 10 times more likely to grow up to be Dems than repunks.

With all choices come consequences, some of them detrimental. Think about it. Are pro-choice Dems pro-choice-without-bad-consequences? Are pro-life Dems pro-life-without-regard-to-a-decent-life? Those are the questions we should ask.

[Greyhound]

50. Isn't the real issue whether or not this is an issue the government

should have any say at all? Isn't the idea of forcing, through threat of violence, a supposedly autonomous free citizen to endure the risk and trauma of giving birth the antithesis of the American ideal? :shrug: :banghead: