What is the point of having different socioeconomic classes?

[begin_within]

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[begin_within]

2. That's the only point?

[longship]

3. There needs to be lower classes.

So that the elite upper class can feel good about itself.
That's the sole purpose of the lower classes.

on edit: Also, somebody's gotta do all the work.

[SammyWinstonJack]

16. Why would that make them feel better about themselves?

They should feel shame, imo, especially since "somebody's gotta do all the work" and mostly likely that isn't the elite upper class.

[pitohui]

18. people are ashamed of working hard, they are not ashamed of being parasite

most people look down on the janitor, the slaughterhouse floorman, the ditch digger, the street repairman

hell, these days cleaning up trash is considered a punishment to be used in addition to or instead of prison so a decent person cannot hold up her head and pick up trash for fear of being mistaken for a prisoner

from at least the times of ancient greek it has been considered shameful to work, it is not considered shameful not to work unless you are completely brainwashed

we get one life

the top elite do not wish to waste it in hard work, nor would any sensible person

the lion at the lead of the pride does not hunt, he lets the female and the lesser lights do it

it's nature, hard work takes away from your life energy

it sucks

therefore if we were truly civilized it would be either shared equally or at least rewarded, instead, working hard at necessary jobs is punished w. low pay, chance of injury, and social scorn

[Nikia]

25. Not for working class men though

I work at a food processing company. I have a more technical type job, but I make closer to what they make than compared to my manager. A number of women there have husbands or live in boyfriends who have trouble getiing/keeping a steady job. Others know people who have had this problem for a while. It is considered a bad thing for these men to be out of work even if they are making it on the wife's wage, especially if she is working a part time job also. Some are of the opinion that this is grounds for divorce even if he has problems that make it difficult for him to be employed.
Are these people brainwashed?

[longship]

26. Shoulda put a :sarcasm: tag on that post.

:-)

[radwriter0555]

54. ALL life forms have a hierarchy. All of them. Animals, plants, single cell

amoebas, chemicals, even outer space, the stars, the planets, the suns and the moons... humans too.

As humans we must rise above the exploitation of the classes that we would otherwise enslave, punish, diminish, persecute, subjegate.

That is what seperates us, but ultimately it is the hierarchial system that we have in common with all the other elements in the universe.

All we can do is make sure that we unto ourselves, do the right thing by every other life form, and encourage those around us to also do the right thing.

[stray cat]

4. it seems to be related to human nature even animals seem to do it

at least in term of hierarchy. Even communism didn't pull it off

[ClevelandSportsCurse]

5. Well, if the lower and middle classes had lots of money...

they would be conservative Republicans. Most of them are selfish and not as educated like most DUers. The only reason they do not vote Republican now is strictly because of lack of money. As soon as they get a whiff of being rich, they become Republican. Money can do some strange things to people.

If we want to bring everybody up, we would have to do so in a way that does not produce right wing Republican power.

[lostexpectation]

10. ie end captialism.

.

[Hamlette]

14. silly stereotypes

seems to mee too many blue collar types are voting GOP and there are certainly many rich dems.

I know it sounds greedy but when you pay $100K in income taxes to the feds, and you hate what the gov't does with your money, you start to think people who want to lower your taxes make sense. If you didn't have strong political leanings by time you started paying high taxes, you'd run to the GOP.

People who want low taxes regardless of the consequences and those who think abortion is murder apparently constitute 32% of the population.

[Burning Water]

6. The point is

that some people either inherit or earn more money than other people. And they figure it's theirs. Go figure.

Still 'class' covers a lot more territory than just money. For instance, rap stars have lots of money (which you notice they will hang on to just like the worst capitalist), but not a whole lot of what is commonly referred to as 'class'. That is, a certain way of behavior, or of carrying oneself.

Is this derogatory towards them? In some people's minds, yes. In others, it is a positive trait, as they may abhor the attittudes of "high" class people. Most people tend to hang out with people who think and behave like they do. I don't, myself, find this to be a moral issue at all. Neither do most of the people here, IMO. Otherwise, why aren't we all posting on FR?

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Burning Water]

32. I don't see how

you derived that conclusion from my post.

In fact, I don't think that I expressed an opinion, one way or the other. I just said that people like to keep what they have. This is an observable fact, not a matter of opinion. Or do you think differently?

But the original question was silly, anyway. So much of life just doesn't have a point. It just is that way. And the fact that some people have more and others have less falls into this category.

[leftofthedial]

7. so assholes can feel superior

[Boojatta]

8. Does it benefit criminals from both the higher and lower classes?

Are victims of high socio-economic class criminals ever advised to not press charges on the grounds that "The family of the accused would be ruined. They are respectable people. You have to think about them"?

Are victims of low socio-economic class criminals ever advised to not press charges on the grounds that "These people can't help it. It's just the way they are"?

[ixion]

9. since the separation of state and agriculture, some 5k years ago,

there has been different socioeconomic classes. It seems to be a pretty natural part of the way humans are wired.

I don't really have a problem with that. What bugs me is when the upper classes put safeguards in place to make it damn near impossible to change classes to their level. :grr:

That's just not cricket, IMO.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[grunion]

19. Effort DOES have a lotta influence over who is wealthy...

...and who is not. Sure it's luck, and birth position etc., but anyone wealthy I know has worked for it. Handing it down to their kids (who may or may not work for it) is one of the perks that go along with the hard work and wealth (if wealth didn't have perks, it wouldn't be wealth).

[lostexpectation]

21. these people still ran for the upper classes thats may be hard work but it

also treachery if you don't live simple...

[lostexpectation]

30. and...

so if these then go buy and suv, we can't judge them cos they earned and I'll spend my hard earned money as I like, or if they buy a 30 room house, or have a maid or send their kid to private school???

[Yupster]

36. The thing about inheritances

is that rich people often live very long lives since they can afford the very best of medical care.

When your mom dies at 88, and leaves you her money, you may be 64 and by then you've either made it or you haven't.

BTW, the richest people I work with are almost all elderly women who ost their husbands.

[Finder]

38. I bet they worked their asses off waiting...

for the ole geezer to die too.lol

[Yupster]

55. If mom and dad became millionaires at age 70,

it's not like you spend your life waiting for them to die thinking that they might someday be millionaires.

Even if they do have lots, there's always the fear of spending it all in nursing homes and on medical costs.

The kids often also have no clue how much the parents have as they are often private people who don't share their portfolio statements with their kids until they get quite old.

[Finder]

56. Agree.

I don't think the parents even realize sometimes.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

23. Certainly seems that way

Im not aware of any society either now or in history that doesnt have it.

Not that it makes it any less tragic.

[Burning Water]

33. Gross inequity IS natural.

Natural selection implies competition between individuals in a species as well as competition between different species.

What distinguishes man is that through the use of his intellect, he can rise above his animal nature.

[Finder]

39. yeah, it is called social darwinism...

and is controversial in itself.

[Burning Water]

43. No, you are mistaken.

Social Darwinism means installing social policies that reinforce this natural tendency. Which is a fact. Check out your local feral dog pack, for example.

Men, being intelligent and morally aware, something dogs are not, can come up with policies to combat this trend in mankind and his social institutions.

Please try to read more carefully, and not assume what isn't said.

[Finder]

49. Your definition is not totally correct...

and I have no idea what feral dogs have to do with it.

[Burning Water]

61. OK. What's YOUR definition?

As for the "feral dogs", it's called reasoning by analogy. My point was that competition occurs between members of the same species, with some winners and some losers. Look at the dog pack. There's the alpha male and alphas female, they get first crack at the carcass, for instance. The lowest ranking member gets what's left when the others have all they want. And the pack will fight with other packs that try to move into their territory. Just exactly like wolves, or even mankind's closest animal relative, the chimpanzee. The natural world sucks; human nature sucks, and nothing you can say will change that.

Nothing you can do will change that, either. But humans can build institutions and ideas that channel and restrain human nature in order to make the world better for all. Just don't count on everybody voluntarily going along with the agenda.

[Finder]

63. I do agree with your entire post. n/t

[Jayhawk Lib]

12. There is no point.

That is life. Some are more talented. Some are better looking. Some are more intelligent. Last but not least some are more ambitious and just work harder than others.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jayhawk Lib]

20. Life is not fair.

Bill Clinton was born into poverty and look what he did.

There are more people becoming millionaires every year. They did not make it by complaining about how unfair things are. They took what life dealt them and through hard work made something out of their life.

I am certainly not rich but nobody, even the rich, owe me a thing.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Burning Water]

34. And that answers your

question in post #15.

[Jayhawk Lib]

41. Bill Clinton started out in poverty.

Why do you hate the rich? Is it class envy? I just do not understand. I am not rich. I would call myself retired middle class. I worked as an electrician for 40 years, contributed the max to an ira since they started the ira program. I do not hate the rich and I do not feel that they owe me anything. Am I missing something?

There are all sorts of opportunities for young people today even if all they have is a high school education. This country will always need electricians, plumbers, truck drivers, air conditioning-heating repairmen, and a whole host of other opportunities.

Very few people have the excuse to live in poverty. There is plenty of opportunity out there if you will just pursue it.

I am not a big fan of Bill Clinton but he worked his tail off to get where he is today. I do not care if he was a lawyer and charged "exorbitant" fees as a lawyer. Evidently his clients thought he was worth it.

As far as bombing other countries, it was done as a NATO or UN operation. I can't see how he profited from that.

[Yupster]

40. Ask the next ten millionaires you meet

about their first job or their first house and they'll probably have a story about being poor at some point in their life.

I work with millionaires every day. They come mostly from two groups of people.

1. Savers who always invested, had middle class jobs and through living to old age, they are now millionaires. This is the biggest group.

2. People who started a small business, a restaurant or store or consulting business, and later sold out or retired as a millionaire.

I should say that I work with millionaires as in families with 1-5 million. I only work with one family with 50 million or more so that group may be very different.

From what I see though, the way to become a millionaire is to always save money every month, and live to a very old age.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Finder]

45. Is it a bad thing to hire domestic help?

Most two career families hire both out of necessity sometimes.

[lostexpectation]

46. quite possibly

if you can't afford to take care of your kids without working and using daycare etc then no if you get to this 'rich' stage and can afford to work less and look after your own kids and house then you should do this, it is a baf thing I'd be embarrased not to clean up after myself and look after my own kids, and if you can afford domestic help you are rich!

[Finder]

47. Well, domestic help is to help, not take over...

of course every situation is different.

[Nikia]

57. My mother hired a woman to watch us

When she left our hometown after divorcing my father. Over half of her pay went to paying the woman who watched us while she was at work. My dad provided child support but he didn't have a very good job at the time. It was important to her though that we weren't in daycare. We lived quite poorly in a small apartment over a downtown store in a place where those were the cheapest apartments. We had a nanny though. Given our bad economic situation caused by paying the hired help, we soon moved back to our hometown where our extended family watched us until we were old enough to go to school.
Later when my mother had a middle income job, she hired a cleaning person to come in once a week to clean our two bedroom ranch home. When she married her second husband who made considerably more and moved into his nicer, they kept the cleaning woman for a while. Then they made my sister and I do everything.
When I later lived with my dad, he was working at a low paying job and my step mother worked part time at an even lower paying job. I got reduced lunches while living there. Still they paid a family who was worse off economically to mown our lawn and weed our garden every week.
My inlaws on the otherhand, refuse to hire help even though the father is a lawyer with a large amount of savings. The mother complains about all the cleaning she does as well as taking care of her husband who still works but has some disabilities due to health problems. She says that it would be shameful to hire anyone and too expensive (but blowing $500/week or more on shopping for junk she never uses is not).
I think that are some differences in the way that people are raised as to whether or not they value doing their own housework or not. I am not sure if it is a class difference, a generational difference, a regional difference, or other group difference. Some people are willing to pay a large percentage of their salary or wage for help. Others would not pay someone even if they were millionaires.

[Finder]

58. Good overview of different scenarios. n/t

[Yupster]

48. No, generally not

More likely is the women quits working outside the home.

In small business situations, it's common for the woman to quit her day job and help out organizing the husband's growing business. This just happened again this last week in fact with people I work with.

If they do have domestic help, it's widows in their 80's who need someone to come in a couple toimes a day to help them out.

Most millionaires live completely ordinary lives. You would never know they were millionaires from the way they live.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Finder]

51. Being a millionaire is not as uncommon...

as it used to be. By owning a couple of pieces of property, one will have assets of a millionaire yet not necessarily live like one.

[lostexpectation]

53. ah i see your getting it now...not

oh oh im ssorry owning a couple of pieces of property again my middle class heart bleeds

[Finder]

44. My experience as well...

and many are children or grandchildren of immigrants.

[Nikia]

27. Some people have no moral qualms about using people

It is my experience that most highly economically mobile people have no problem with using people. Other people will be more limited in their upward mobility because they are not willing to do this.

[Burning Water]

35. You are certainly right about this. n/t

[Yupster]

37. Agree Jayhawk Lib

There is no point in having separate economic classes. There just are.

[pitohui]

17. so buttheads can feel important even tho they're not

there is no reason a paper pusher is better or more needed in society than a ditch digger so we have to have artificial divisions so that the worthless parasite CEO can continue to tell himself he's better than the man who actually does the real hard dirty work of the world

animals have these divisions so that the animal on top can hog all the females and food for his offspring, the so-called elite are no more highly evolved than an animal that grabs and clutches out of instinct

many on the bottom are so brutalized by class division and oppression that they too, like the top elite, can only think of grabbing and clutching -- but they are punished for living by rule of jungle while the elites are rewarded

class exists to keep certain families on top and the rest on the bottom, that's it, nothing deeper than that

[muriel_volestrangler]

22. Do you mean "what's the point of naming different classes"?

If so, then it helps us understand what we're talking about when we say, for instance, "the working poor are getting a bad deal from Bush's fiscal policy".

If you mean "what's the point of people having different amounts of money and status, often inherited?" - then there's no 'point' to it; it's just human nature. People form groups with others they think they can trust to support them; they like to keep posessions they gain; and they like to help their children, by giving them posessions, and any other advantages they can.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

24. Whats the point in having 4 different seasons?

There isnt a point.

There just is.

[jerry611]

28. That's just how civilization operates

The social heirarchy has been in place for thousands of years.

We have not advanced to a period of civilization where we can grant socioeconomic equality to all. Communism attempts to achieve this but it just doesn't work. Communism may have the right idea, but the major problem with communism is that it does not give a model for how a society is supposed to move from capitalism without the government becoming a gigantic monster.

It's like putting windows in a computer designed only for MS-DOS. The system is obsolete, therefore we can't upgrade.
We are just not advanced enough as a culture and a society on a global scale to grant that kind of equality. And it isn't something that can be fixed tomorrow or the next election. People by the masses (by the billions) have to change their whole ways of thinking and operating. And that literally takes generations. It takes hundreds of years for society to change anything. It's a slow process of social evolution.

[nick303]

60. The division of labor allowed different classes to evolve

So the answer is really that we are too advanced for everyone to be in the same class, not the other way around.

[Finder]

31. It must be a human thing, since...

all throughout written history it is to be found. Not just socio-economic classes but warrior classes, ethnic classes or "castes" as they called them at times.

Many studies have been done with "Lord of the Flies" results. We all need something above to strive for as well as something below to avoid. Religion is often embraced by those oppressed and/or on the bottom to fulfill this need. Heaven and Hell would replace socio-economics in that case.

[JVS]

52. It isn't done to make a point. It's happens as a result of how we as.....

a society go about production.

[Deja Q]

59. To keep the working class in line.

Why else dismantle the US' infrastucture? Too many Americans would not be able to conform to the lifestyle the Chinese have.

And with our energy usage problem, that's one viable solution. :(

But we have lived in the best time of human history.

Or maybe I'm just thinking too much; the job problem ending once more baby boomers retire.

[patcox2]

62. The world needs ditchdiggers, too.

Noone decides to "have" different classes, they just happen. Some societies give them formal recognition, fuedal europe, India's caste system, in other societies, no matter how egalitarian, they just happen and are defined by subtle social distinctions and customs.

They happen because not everyone has equal talents and abilities and some labor and some invest and all things in between.

"Class," a book by Paul Fussel, is a great, and funny, examination of the american class system.