New Zogby Poll: 58% of Mexicans Say Southwest U.S. Belongs to Them

[ECH1969]

Americans and Mexicans have widely divergent views of border issues, according to a new poll by Zogby International. Zogby found that a large majority of the Mexican population believes the southwest territory of the U.S. rightfully belongs to Mexico, and that Mexicans should have the right to enter the U.S. without first obtaining U.S. permission. By contrast, Zogby's survey of Americans conducted within a few days of the Mexican poll shows a large majority supports reducing immigration levels and wants the military deployed along the border to protect the U.S. from illegal immigration.

Zogby's poll found that 58 percent of Mexicans agree with the statement, "the territory of the United States' Southwest rightfully belongs to Mexico." Only 28 percent disagree, and 14 percent are unsure. A similar majority, 57 percent, agree with the statement, "Mexicans should have the right to enter the U.S. without U.S. permission," while 35 percent disagree. Seven percent are unsure.

The survey has a margin of error of 3.5 percent. The Mexico portion of the survey was conducted in Spanish between May 25 and May 26 among 801 adults chosen at random throughout Mexico. The poll was commissioned by Americans for Immigration Control, Inc. (AIC), which advocates increased restrictions on immigration.

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/06-12-2002/0001746048
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Poll from a few years back, but has big barring on the immigration debate today.

[SnoopDog]

1. Bull shit....

[QC]

22. Got any evidence for that? n/t

[roody]

68. We took it from them fair and square

when we invaded Mexico. Did the same to the Hawaiians. Puerto Ricans too.

[blindpig]

77. So, imperialist aggression is OK?

We may not be able to correct the wrongs of history but it is dishonest to deny the crimes of the past.

The United States has been every bit the imperialist aggressor in it's history, taking other people's land whenever it suited and had the power to do so.

These are the fruits of imperialism. History, read it and weep.

[burythehatchet]

84. Let's not forget America

[Greyhound]

2. .

:popcorn:

[Erika]

3. I saw the Taos pueblos built before Columbus was here

Yes, the SW belongs to the Hispanic/Indians.

[Spider Jerusalem]

16. By that logic...

Britain belongs to the Celts, not the Anglo-Saxons and Normans...I suppose the Welsh, Cornish and Scots should join together and drive all the usurping interlopers (who themselves have a long history of living there) back to Jutland and Normandy?

And what you're saying has no basis in reason, anyway, since the descendants of the people who built the pueblos still largely live in the American Southwest; the Mexicans are largely of very distantly related Aztec/Maya/other tribal stock.

Based on what you're saying, European-Americans should just all go back to Europe, which by your logic would 'belong' to us anyway (after all, our ancestors lived there before they came here), without regard to the opinions of the present inhabitants. Which is completely and totally absurd.

[QC]

23. How about Florida?

As far as I can tell the Azetcs, Zapotecs, Mayans, etc. never controlled this territory, but their descendants are out in force here now.

Should they also clear out, as your logic, and I use the term very loosely, would have it?

[Newsjock]

4. Press release date appears to be June 12, 2002

Possibly not new.

[serryjw]

5. I'm confused..Do they want it back

or do they want to live in America???

[readmoreoften]

7. Kind of both

Mexico isn't a colonizer culture. I think they just want to be able to come back to their land and live beside us. I haven't met many Mexicans in Texas that wanted to kick us out.

[Erika]

10. My good Hispanic friends in AZ have been here

for nine generations. They just want their heritage to be recognized.

[readmoreoften]

36. Yup. That's about the size of it.

Even lily white Texans usually have a Mexican grand-grandma or two. I've never met a Mexican who views their ethnicity as a "pure race." I don't see Mexicans as eager to kick whites out of America any time soon. Mexican culture is mestizo: indian and white mixed together. Although there weren't Anglos in Mexico, there were Spanish, French, and Polish who intermarried with the indigenous population.

And, oh yeah, Mexicans were in Texas before Texans were in Texas. So...what the hell do we expect?

[Erika]

8. They want to reclaim their lands.

They built and civilized the SW way before Columbus "discovered" America.

[troubleinwinter]

53. The Anasazi have nothing whatever to do with "Mexicans"

The Anasazi are gone, as of about 700 years ago. There may be some relation to the modern Hopi, but that really is unknown.

[IndyJones]

57. They want it back and want it to be funded by US tax dollars.

[Whoa_Nelly]

6. That's it...next Z poll will make sure I enter "Ethnicity" as Hispanic

Don't wnat to miss these important polls...

[madrchsod]

9. bullshit poll by a group that has it`s own agenda

zogby wanted to get paid i guess. as far as i can tell no one lived in those states along the border but the indigenous peoples. not "mexican tribes" , "spanish-french mexicans", or african mexicans etc, etc. if that`s the case french can lay claim to the upper midwest because they were the first to trade and settle with northern tribes.

[Erika]

11. The Taos Pueblos were built long before 1492

and showed a strong existing civilization and government. You might not like it, but those are the facts.

[saracat]

12. Too bad! This is our nation now! And I certainly am not going to give my

house back to Mexico. This is a ridiculous argument, right on par with having everyone move back to wherever their ancestors came from.

[rpannier]

13. I agree with you

Most civilizations today are populated by groups that were not the original inhabitants -- that includes Europe, much of Northern Africa and Asia. People need to get over the colonizer culture stuff.

[Erika]

15. And I suspect what you say is what the Hispanics will soon say

We don't own this country. We were far from being the first here.

[saracat]

18. Where do you live? Are you going to give your home back to the Indians?

Or perhaps you will attempt to find a decendent of Cro-Magnan Man? Don't be ridiculous. It sounds as though you don't think the United States should exist at all. In that case, why are you here? I am proud to be an American, though not proud of all of our actions and certainly have been embarassed and angered by the recent administration, but I am an American and will defend MY country before all others.Of course we OWN this country. You can't go back in time and give it back and I wouldn't want to.

[QC]

24. Yeah, Erika. Where do you live?

I notice that you have meticulously kept your profile as empty as possible.

It's only fair that you tell us where you live, since you have made residence so important.

For what it's worth, some of my own ancestors were here in the U.S. long before the boats showed up, so if you are in former Cherokee country, I would appreciate it if you would notify me as to your address and then move out, as I am looking for a nice place to live. Thanks!

[saracat]

26. Actually, I am part Cherokee so my people 'were' here!

So no matter how you slice it, I am an American and I do own my land!

[troubleinwinter]

54. WTF? The Anasazi, who built the pueblos of New Mexico,

Arizona, Utah and Colorado were NOT "Hispanic".

What ARE you talking about??!!

[0007]

44. The way it works for sure.....

Carl Sandburg"The People, Yes"

"Get off this estate."
"What for?"
"Because it's mine."
"Where did you get it?"
"From my father."
"Where did he get it?"
"From his father."
"And where did he get it?"
"He fought for it."
"Well, I'll fight you for it."

[enlightenment]

50. Erika, did the Pueblo people consider themselves

Mexican? It's fine to say that present-day Hispanic people claim the Pueblo culture, but did the Pueblo culture claim Mexican heritage?

Facts, please. Opinions are nice, but you're making some strong statements without offering evidence.

There are at least a couple of scholarly arguments that support the idea that the pre-historic peoples of the American southwest had a shared (as opposed to borrowed or just a trade) culture with the pre-historic cultures of central America; are you referring to those?

[Maddy McCall]

67. Most scholars of ethnohistory don't use the term "pre-history"

Is ethnohistory your specialty?

[enlightenment]

89. Nope. I do "cultural/intellectual" history -

primary field is 18th century Britain and US; lately my focus has been free-thought. I put the 'cultural/intellectual' in quotes because it's called by many different names, depending on where you live/study/teach.

Of course, I teach American history because I like having a roof over my head.

What term do ethnohistorians use? I recognize there are many ways to define the historical record; I use the term to indicate that period before a culture developed a written record (which is not to say that they didn't have other methods of recording their past).

I would prefer to use the proper term, so I appreciate your input and knowledge on the topic.
Thanks!

[Zookeeper]

49. As far as the upper midwest...

yes, it was the French who were the first Europeans here. Nonetheless, in Minnesota, there has been a huge and rapid influx of illegal immigrants from Mexico and the opening of a Mexican Consulate. The fact that the upper midwest never "belonged" to Mexico certainly hasn't stopped illegal workers from coming here and feeling entitled to do so.

[magellan]

14. I wonder if they'd be so willing to take the SW

...under a Mexican economy. What they really want, I suspect, is the SW with its current US economy.

[Neil Lisst]

17. if Mexico had owned the SW USA, it would be as crappy as Mexico

[rockymountaindem]

33. One thing I can say about you, man

is that you sure don't pull any punches!

[IndyJones]

58. They would then have to travel farther to sneak into the US.

[moondust]

19. Grandpa Cortez was also aggressive. n/t

[SeattleGirl]

20. Uh, not it doesn't. Not last time I looked.

Regardless of how that part of the country BECAME part of the US, it IS part of the US.

[burythehatchet]

86. So why not invade Mexico and Canada and

make it "part of the US"

[progressivebydesign]

21. Seriously? That's total BS. Do they teach history in Mexico? n/t

[QC]

25. They don't teach anything at all in Mexico,

unless you are sufficiently privileged to pay the fees required to go to school past the elementary level.

After all, we don't want the Five Families to give up a bit of their filthy lucre for the sake of the people, now do we?

[Greyhound]

27. And this is the REAL PROBLEM isn't it?

their country is in the hands of the shameless ruling families and the Mexicans find it easier to come here than it is to fix their own mess. Imagine 10 - 20 million Mexicans taking back their own country, instead of leeching off of ours.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

37. You mean like your ancestors did?

[Greyhound]

40. What ancestors would those be?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. Whichever ones fled here to escape poverty, repression, etc.

My grandmother fled Ireland to the USA, via Britain and Canada, to escape poverty. She never had a desire to go back and fix it.

I can only assume that your ancestors came here for some similar reason(s). Why didn't they go back and fix where they came from?

[Greyhound]

48. Sorry, but I'm an American, and the part of my family that came here

did it legally. The country that they came from doesn't need fixing.

If you want to live in a shack next to an open sewer and carry your contaminated water from the community well, by all means go someplace that already has these accommodations, there are no shortages of places like that. Just please leave those of us that don't share your opinion alone. We don't want to live like that.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

52. So, they came here to....??

Let's see. They came here because where they were from was sooo nice? Because it had clear water and indoor plumbing?
There were no shacks there?

Please fill me in why they came here from such a wondrous place that didn't need fixing. Was it just to leech off the "real" Americans?

Most of the immigrants who are coming here to escape the very things you're so frightened of. What's your problem with that? Unlike your ancestors, most Americans' forebears came here to improve their lives. And, they didn't give much of a rip if it was "legal" or not.

[Greyhound]

74. "So, they came here to...."

Become Americans, duh. Apparently, this concept is beyond your comprehension but legal immigrants are immigrating for the very same purpose.
Now, why don't you try addressing the issue?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

79. You're the one who brought it up.

You said the immigrants should go back to their own country and fix it, instead of "leeching off Americans".

Which leads to the question as to why your ancestors didn't go back to their country and fix it instead of coming here to leech off Americans.

Still waiting for an answer.

[Greyhound]

90. Have you lost the ability to read? Oh wait, you read enough to

avoid the issue, again. Let's try the American method, I'll speak very slowly and loudly;

In answer to your question, The nations my ancestors came from did not need fixing.
They were not "escaping" from poverty or repression, they came here to become Americans. They believed that this country had a better idea and they wanted to be a part of that idea.

Now, I've answered your question for a second time, will you return the courtesy?

[Flying Dream Blues]

55. And if you were too poor to feed your family, I guess you

would just starve to death if you weren't up to changing the whole country by yourself. Or maybe, you'd cross the Rio Grande and get a job. Just wondering.

[IndyJones]

59. By themselves? There are over 11 million of them. If they all went

knocking on Fox's door, don't you think they'd have to make changes? I'd love to see them organize and march in Mexico and demand changes there. Why abandon their country and insist the US make changes to our laws? Nothing is going to change there until people start holding Fox accountable for his country. Mexicans need to make changes in their own country rather than trying to make the US make changes to ours.

[IndyJones]

61. BTW, Fox is too busy giving out maps and 'how to's' of how to get here

and emptying out his prisons and sending them here to make changes to his country.

[slaveplanet]

63. He's doing a hell of a lot more than that

He's spending multi millions paying a gringo(Texan) who likes to parade around mexico using hispanic aliases to fund PR on every spanish language radio in the country how the SW US belongs to Mexico and they need to go make their presence known. The gringo's real name is Rob Allyn and he's a GOP operative who was once in charge of GW Bush's campaign before FOX hired him. Rob Allyn was also behind the shill human rights organization "Democracy Watch" and he was paid huge sums to weave his yarn and fool the Mexican people before the Fox election.

http://narconews.com/roballyn1.html

Now he's hard at work buying air-time, providing white tee shirts, and passing out American flags.

It's pretty easy to run mass protests and get tons of media coverage when you're a GOP/mexican presidente shill, I'm sure this has a lot to do with the lack of riot police as well.

[Leopolds Ghost]

72. If this is true, how come there hasn't been more discussion of it?

I've had my doubts, especially in regard to "May Day" protests, insofar
as I suspect that many of the hard-line left (Marxist Leninist)
organizations that like to exploit issues of race serve as a sponge and
a heavily infiltrated tar-baby designed to make life difficult for real
radicals, populists and progressives.

But if the GOP is directly funding groups like CASA and La Raza the way
they cynically funneled money to the Greens, that takes it to a whole
new level. Reminds me of the Clone Army in Star Wars...

[slaveplanet]

88. because the story ran in the LA times

on December 28th, when everyone was on vacation. I haven't seen much mention of it since.

I'm thinking back door FTAA, or possibly something more ominous, like justification for the camps.

but they're clearly playing both sides of this thing, Sensenbrenner's bill is just a shill tactic. They have no intention of passing something like that. Bushco is much tighter with Vincente Fox than they like to have it appear.

[Greyhound]

73. Look, the simple fact is that there are about 4 billion too many people

on the planet and they can't all come here. We have plenty of our own people right that are too poor to feed their families, lets take care of them before we start trying to fix everybody else's problems.

[roody]

69. Who is leeching off whom?

What did your groceries cost? How much did the lettuce picker, grape pruner, strawberry picker, pear, apple, peach picker make preparing your food? What if they made a living wage? How much would your groceries cost?

[Greyhound]

75. Another BS lie, ironically from the RW to justify their continued

exploitation of the migrant workers and suppression of American wages. We have adopted the worst system of production and distribution conceivable, it is all about maximizing profits, you, I, the workers and employees are irrelevant. Compare the Prices at a Trader Joe's and then compare them with the corporate supermarkets. Whether the workers in the field get $5 an hour or $15, makes no significant difference to the bottom line.

[IndyJones]

80. A lot less than the social services they use.

[IndyJones]

81. And that justifies their slave labor in your mind? That slave labor

is okay because it keeps the cost of your groceries down?

[roody]

92. I am willing to pay more for fair wage food.

[Bucky]

64. I teach plenty of Mexican and American students. Mexican kids are

Mexican kids generally have better academic skills, better attitudes toward learning, and are generally better prepared to take advantage of public education. I don't doubt that, as a matter of pride, many Mexicans see the lost bounty of the US southwest as something they lost and might like to have back. But I don't think anyone in Mexico is seriously running the idea around that they should take it back, which is what hysterical freepers and racists would want to suggest from this poll.

[IndyJones]

82. Have you spoken with any of them? Yes, many do feel that CA

belongs to them.

[Cocoa]

35. I bet Mexicans know more about the Mexican War than Americans

[fujiyama]

28. This poll really explains little

I doubt most Mexicans would care which country which piece of land belonged to as long as their families could grow up to have a decent life.

After all, Zogby didn't ask if they would like the US SW with a Mexican economy. I doubt most would want that.

Plus, I have no idea how accurate polling would be in a nation where not so many have access to phones. Also, what would those Mexicans be willing to do to "reclaim" that land? Would they be willing to fight a war for it? To die for it?

I doubt that either. Most are coming here for a better life. I do not buy into this concept that most hold "interior" motives of "invading" this country.

[Jack Rabbit]

29. Let's return Texas

They can have the Frat Boy.

[Bigmack]

30. Bullshit!... We stole it fair and square!....

Just like Hawaii, the Phillipines, Guam, etc. etc. etc.

Mexican War... 1848.... US takes what is now California, AZ, NM, UT, etc.

Gold Strike in California... 1849... US is able to finance large-scale industrial development and governmental expansion.

Hmmmmmm....

[rockymountaindem]

34. The California gold rush, like most such events

didn't produce much wealth in the early going. The vast majority of the people who went to California (or Colorado, or South Dakota, or the Yukon) ended up going home broke or settling on the land and taking up jobs and trades that had nothing to do with mining. In the end, the gold rush was mostly a springboard for the creation of other kinds of wealth in that region. Very little gains were derived from gold mining itself.

[Zorra]

31. Well, Bu*h thinks it belongs to wealthy, powerful private interests.

Especially Texas.

[mmonk]

32. Pfffft

We need to be careful folks. What is the purpose of this poll?

[Retrograde]

38. 1/3 of the US used to be 1/2 of Mexico

Texas, Oklahoma (I think), bits of Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, Nevada, California, Arizona and New Mexico were all once part of Mexico. Texas revolted in the 1830s, the rest were annexed after the war with Mexico in 1848. Florida was acquired from Spain before Mexico existed as an sovereign state, and as far as I'm concerned they can have it back.

BUT - speaking only for California, whose history I'm most familiar with - it was the back of beyond then. Power was concentrated in the hands of a few wealthy families, the Mexican government restricted economic growth by limiting trade, tight restrictions on immigration, etc. The Golden Land of Opportunity it was not. It was rather sparsely populated

I for one think California should go back to being a separate country, which it was briefly in 1846. We still use the flag!

[loyalsister]

71. Talk about a wake up call!!

If California was a seperate country the rest of the U.S. would really feel it economically!

[Coventina]

39. I think all human beings should return to Africa.

There, that settles everything.....

;-)

[Ignacio Upton]

47. Yeah, and give Europe back to the Neanderthals

Stupid Homo Sapiens, stealing Europe from the Neanderthals :sarcasm: .

[Acebass]

42. We fought a war once over this...do they want a repeat!...n/t

[goforit]

43. OMG!!!!... The quiet invasion is here!

[El Fuego]

45. No surprise there.

The "rights" they speak of are a Mexican version of Manifest Destiny.

[Ignacio Upton]

46. This poll feeds into the minds of the Aztlan/Reconquista crowd

Aside from the fact that Manifest Destiny was a factor in the Mexican War, the southwest is/has been settled and developed for some time by the United States. I can't see us giving up almost all of our Pacific coastline and more than a third of our population, because some fringe chicano nationalists (not generalizing all Chicanos here, just the "reconquista" types) want to recreate the mythical, historically-dubiious "Aztlan." Also, many Mexicans come here to escape MEXICO'S economy. You know, if the Aztecs were really pushed out of the southwest to central Mexico by the ancestors of the Native Americans who live there now, then following that logic, the reconquista crowd should be gunning for taking over their reservations. Navajo, your great-great-great-great grandfathers killed Aztecs and forced them off their lands, time to give up your reservation in the name of Aztlan!

[judaspriestess]

51. this is a pretty fucking stupid poll

wtf do you expect them to say???

[Raine]

56. There are winners and losers in wars...

they lost. Most every place in this World belonged to other people at one time the American SW isn't the only place.

[lonestarnot]

60. rugh ro flamebait

:popcorn:

[qanda]

62. I guess they mean between April 25 and April 26

Because it won't be May until tomorrow.

[Bucky]

65. This has no baring on the immigration debate. Just the laws of conquest

I wonder how many Native Americans in the US and Mexico feel the same. About 58% sounds right to me.

[HereSince1628]

78. It may not bear on legitimate arguments, but it feeds

conservatives' anxiety. Not to sound like a risk aversive DCDem, but this is the sort of news that feeds the opposition.

This poll result, true or not, provides a talking point for the wacko right-winger argument that illegal immigration shows that the Hispanic community generally has no respect for United States laws and sovereignty. Conservative xenophobes already see Hispanics as a 5th column working to undermine the US. This poll result will feed that feeling. Supreme wingnut idiocy? Yes, but not to the wingnuts. Why did the House put forward Sensenbrenners Bill? The explanation must include, at least, the notion that congress members thought it would be supported by their conservative base.

Conservatives are deep into status quo. The poll has the potential to stir the anxiety that an emerging ethnic group has too different a political perspective to be admitted to full status. Don't forget that conservatism deepens with fear. It feeds on xenophobia and facilitates scapegoating the "outlanders." The US has slipped to a conservative behavior pattern that is within spitting distance of good old fashioned fascism. In my lifetime, which spans almost the entire post-WWII era, I've seen this sort of conservative behavior unleashed against "foreigners" in developed nations in Europe, the middleeast, and Africa.

[TankLV]

66. Hey, we one the last war, we can do it all again!

And this time the right wing wackos would probably PROHIBIT the speaking of spanish, just like they did in Hawai'i for the Hawai'ian language.

Besides, who made this poll?

And why are you trying to stir up trouble here?

We've got MORE important things to worry about - like the REPUKE CRIMINALS currently in control of our government!

[jerry611]

70. Well....if that is the case....

We might as well just hand over the 13 colonies back to Britain since we stole it from them too...

The whole Aztlan movement is what is fueling a lot of the anger and hate against immigrants.

[Bridget Burke]

76. There is no "Aztlán Movement"....

Do you remember Chicano Pride? "Aztlán" is the legendary home of the Mexica--later known as Aztecs. Our own fighters for Mexican-American pride & rights adapted the concept to show that they belong here, too.

Nobody wants anybody kicked out of the Southwest--except the Minutemen. (Does that mean the Minutemen want people kicked out of the Southwest? Or that Southwesters want the Minutemen to crawl back into their holes? Could go either say.)

This clipping from a years-old poll was furnished by Americans for Immigration Control--who want immediate deportation of all "illegals" & a moratorium on LEGAL immigration. Wonder why there's no direct link from the article?

www.immigrationcontrol.com/

Here's how the truly ignorant view "Aztlán": www.lawatchdog.com/KissLAgoodby6329.html

Here's how the word is used by the non-idiotic: "Aztlán: A Journal of Chicano Studies." The social sciences...humanities...arts & culture. How dangerous! www.chicano.ucla.edu/press/journals/default.asp

[JVS]

83. These poll results could certainly be used as justification for sealing...

the border.

[bleedingheart]

85. Yeah and Corrupt Mexico would do so much with it....

While the US took the SW from Mexico...I have to say that citizens in the states have faired much better than those in Mexico....I am still waiting for the socialist revolution in Mexico that may put it on the track from being a 3rd world country to a first world nation!

[Greyhound]

91. Don't hold your breath. As we're about to find out, the powerful

do not let that power go easily. Mexico has been treated like the personal piggy-bank by those in charge of it since its inception.

[ComerPerro]

87. Poll from years back. 1840, to be specific

lol...