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A Dem's greatest fear about Winning? Home Grown Zealots.

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Protagoras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 10:58 AM
Original message
A Dem's greatest fear about Winning? Home Grown Zealots.
I was listening to the news blabbing on and on about Insurgents (ever notice only Insurgents are killed in Iraq? Never hear Women or Children..we must be really good with our aim).

And I was reading here and seeing the level of angst, angery, and frustration...people talking about revolution...people talking about uprising, etc. But throughout it all I continue to be struck by the facts that we American Liberals protest, we speechify, we lobby, we march...but we usually abhore violence. We talk about fighting back if we're literally pushed into a corner, or if the brown shirts actually kick in our doors...but we have a great tendancy to aspire to the path of Gandhi. We preach non-violence and peaceful solutions. We advocate against war, and the death penalty. Heck half of us can't even agree on OWNING weapons, let alone using them.

And we look like we're about to win. Thank the gods.

But then I think of the Unibomber, of Timothy McVey, of the Compounds where the real nutbags setup their little cultish armed groups of survivalists. These people don't come from our ranks. And they've been pretty quiet overall (unless one of them was responsible for the anthrax attacks that hardly get mentioned outside of DU).

32% of the population appear to blindly follow Bush no matter what crime he's committing, no matter what voilation of basic morality he's in engaged in. And they are amazing,fantastic even at seeing themselves as the repressed minority even as they control both houses of congress, the administration, and the courts. They have all but their most extreme political fantasies (based on huge historical misunderstandings and distortions) served up on silver platters...yet they scream bloody murder because they haven't got EVERYTHING they demand. They can't stand diversity. They HATE Liberals and FAGS and COMMIE HIPPIES and just about anyone who doesn't exactly agree with them. Basically they HATE people who simply disagree with them.

And they are close to 1/3 of our population. They suck at the nipple of Rush and Hannity and Coulter, having ready made hate leaders who appear to know no bounds when it comes to sewing the seeds of resentment. They listen to Preachers who talk about murder while claiming to hear Christ. And they see no contridiction.

They are our Home Grown Zealots. We sometimes use the term American Taliban...but we don't always realize what that might really mean when we win. Think for a moment how bad they are now with their disengenuous claims of victimhood. Now mulitiply that by actual fear and resentment when this newly forged group of Super Fundy Freeptards actually lose REAL power. What do people LIKE this do? I think we know. They quickly transform their feelings of frustration and helplessness into violence. And the structures they DO have in place (the hate radio and Fox News) won't go away with a Republican Defeat...no, instead they will become even more reactionary. Fueling a fire that pushes the more unstable and angry of these souls to new heights of desperation to defend their illusory world of never-was.

And that is how we end up with small, dedicated groups of people willing to blow things up, attack people in dark alleys, lie, cheat, whatever...fed on the milk of Ends justifying any means, and nourished on the hate and resentment of "My Way or Damnation", and fertilized with dreams of Rapture...they have nothing to lose and everything to gain by becoming every bit as extreme as the terrorists we fight overseas.

Except these people are already here legally. They walk among us because they ARE us. In a country with a grand history of serial killers, gang violence, private militias, McCarthy, Coulter, and the KKK, it shouldn't be hard for us to see...sadly we have a ready crop of our own Zealots who are primed and ready to become full blown terrorists, turning against their own country. Because they see the rest of us as Invading their dream.

My greatest fear is that their myth of a righteous victory in the last two stolen elections will be the trigger of this when they lose. And they will lose. But I am not of the opinion that a win will let me sleep easily at night. If anything I believe we will all sleep less securely once we win.

But how to diffuse their extremist hate and remain true to who we are? I don't know yet, but I know I don't want to live in the middle of a war zone...and I know I can't let them win.

Victory in 06 & 08 won't be the end of our struggles, I think it will actually be the beginning.
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electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
1. They've lost their support system - the slightly less deranged rightwing.
All but the most hardcore crazies have now been forced to see their folly. Those who in the past may have offered aid and comfort to the next McVeigh or Koresh, will be less inclined to do so, and the hardcore's actions will be somewhat limited by this factor, I hope.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
2. K&R, however...
I will not back down in the face of their treachery. That they are likely to resort to violence is no reason for us to stop doing what is right for our country.
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Protagoras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. For certain this is NOT a call to stop our efforts to do what is right.
In fact it's a call for us to work harder. I just want us to be clear on how large the job is. I pray we don't think its over and return to passivity after a couple wins at the polls. That's when the real work begins.

How do we address the media of hate and corporatism that feeds these fools? How do we education a whole new generation of children who's minds are being poisoned by their own brainwashed hate filled parents? Sure we can heal this in time...but we have to figure out how to best spend our energies over that time.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
3. Correct. (nt)
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jrw14125 Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
4. yep, for every decent couple of people there's an asshole.
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Talismom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
5. I think that this is a very thoughtful and interesting post and I
thank you for writing it. I'd remind you though that these people have always been here around us and we've simply seen how bad things can go if they're allowed to take over. I think there are enough of us to keep them in check and keep stompin' 'em down where they belong if we remember that it requires that we work together and not get complacent.
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Protagoras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I understand that we've always had extremists. But I also understand
that there is an equilibrium in most societies that can become endangered. With increasing polarization (such as we've seen here and we see in many countries that end up with great strife or even civil war) the poles tip further and further toward the extremes. And the Teeter totter effect kicks in so that instead of a gentle balance you end up with rapid and jarring lurches from one side to the other.

The result is often violence. Sure we've had our McVey's in the past. But my central concern is that we now have an (for this country) unprecedented number of them now...and they are more openly encouraged and given a greater sense of entitlement than we've had to deal with in our lifetime or memory.

That makes them more dangerous and more numerous than I think we sometimes admit to ourselves.

I'd be thrilled to be wrong on this.
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Talismom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Very interesting. I've learned a lot from your post...n/t
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
6. Well said. I share your apprehention...
Edited on Tue Apr-25-06 11:10 AM by Dhalgren
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
8. Groups that want to arm the left... and yes, the time IS now
Liberals with Guns
"The Constitution of the United States guarantees to you the right to bear arms...You have the unquestioned right, under the law, to defend your life and protect the sanctity of your fireside. Failing in either, you are a coward and a craven and undeserving of the name of man." Eugene V. Debs (speaking to the United Mine Workers, September 1914)
http://www.liberalswithguns.com




Pink Pistols
We are dedicated to the legal, safe, and responsible use of firearms for self-defense of the sexual-minority community. We no longer believe it is the right of those who hate and fear gay, lesbian, bi, trans, or polyamorous persons to use us as targets for their rage. Self-defense is our RIGHT.
http://www.pinkpistols.org




Amendment II Democrats
Amendment II Democrats is currently a loose on-line confederation of progressive and moderate Democrats and like-minded individuals who are dedicated to creating a free and armed America where people are safe in their homes and communities and the Constitutional rights of all Americans are respected. We believe in the power and effectiveness of grassroots activism and participation in the democratic process.
http://www.a2dems.net




Gun Toting Liberals
"It's not easy being a Gun Toting Liberal. Gun Nuts don't like you because you're a Liberal. Liberals don't like you because you're a Gun Nut. What is a Gun Toting Liberal to do?" Answer: Join the Gun Toting Liberals!
http://www.geocities.com/guntotingliberals




Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership
To destroy "gun control" and to encourage Americans to understand and defend all of the Bill of Rights for everyone. Those are the twin goals of Wisconsin-based Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO). Founded by Jews and initially aimed at educating the Jewish community about the historical evils that Jews have suffered when they have been disarmed, JPFO has always welcomed persons of all religious beliefs who share a common goal of opposing and reversing victim disarmament policies while advancing liberty for all.
http://www.jpfo.org




Pro-Gun Progressive
Pro-gun progressives? Isn’t that a contradiction in terms? How can you be
a liberal and support the Second Amendment? Aren’t guns for crazy rednecks,
gang bangers, one-world fearing militia members, and violent people? Hardly!
http://www.progunprogressive.com



This is why we need to be armed:








"We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed too. Otherwise they will turn out to be outright traitors." -- Ann Coulter


"Our goal is a Christian Nation.... We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want Pluralism. We want theocracy. Theocracy means God rules. I've got a hot flash. God rules."
-- Randall Terry, Head of Operation Rescue, speaking in Fort Wayne, Indiana, on April 15, 1993, as reported the following day in The News-Sentinel.


"Words mean things." -- Rush Limbaugh



---------------------------------------------------------

Maybe the Left should take conservatives at their word?

More:
http://liberalswithguns.com/_wsn/page2.html



See related threads:

Groups Arming the left-wing
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2326260#2326379

Poll question: Have any of you thought of getting a gun in the recent past?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=221&topic_id=8840

7. Arming the Left: Is the time now? --by Charles Southwell*
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2326260#2326280

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Protagoras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. I didn't write this as a pro-gun thread, it's a pro-understanding thread
I don't think we're going to become prepared as a liberal society for the violent retaliation of unibombers or McVey-like nutgroups by owning pistols (and I'm not taking a position on gun ownership here). I think we need to look at broader responses aimed at healing the nation and understanding the responses of these fringe freaks.

One thing we must really guard against is another post 9/11 knee-jerk response that derails our rebuilding of a liberal society if a Freepernut decides to blow something up. We need to figure out how to remain who and what we are in the face of their imminent violent reaction.

Perhaps I fear us changing to react to them as much as I fear them in all their hate.
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Confusing...
On the one hand, you want to bring in an era of healing and understanding, and on the other hand, you deride the people you want to bridge the gap with as "freaks," sheep, etc. Doesn't really compute.
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Protagoras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Perhaps I'm not trying to heal them specifically but rather
trying to prepare us. And maybe I'm using text and subtext to communicate a deeper sense of the divisions in our society. :D

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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Imagine what Bush would have done in the face of the Oklahoma bombing
Edited on Tue Apr-25-06 11:46 AM by IanDB1
I see your point.

In the meantime though, one thing that really rattles conservatives and repukes is an angry Liberal who isn't a pacifist, isn't a whimp, isn't afraid to use violence in defense of a righteous cause.

Remember when Al Franken posted that video on Amazon.com in which he pretended to attack a conservative critic of his book during a staged event?

Conservatives went nuts.

Anything that breaks us out of the mold of tree-hugging hippie stoners and into an actual threat rattles their cages.

I am filled with anger.

Many of us are.

For now, use that anger to the fullest extent that the law will allow.

And also hold onto that anger, and save it up, for the day that might come when the law breaks down.

Remember how they were cheer-leading for the war in Iraq because we would "shock and awe" them-- roll right over them-- and be greeted as liberators with flowers and candy?

Do not let them think that if they attack us with force, we will retaliate with angry emails and sit-ins.



Make sure they know that if they want to make it ugly, we won't offer them subpoenas and therapy. Let them know-- we can get angry. We can be violent. We will not be a cakewalk.



Now is the time to peacefully and lawfully show your anger, to express your willingness to use force, so they might be deterred against using violence against us in the future.



"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson


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ItsTheMediaStupid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. That amendment neither says guns or own, anywhere in it
To bear means to carry, not to own. Neither are the arms named there limited to firearms. If I interpret it as an individual right, then I should be allowed to have a nuclear weapon in my back yard if I can purchase it, which is utter nonsense.

It has never been upheld in a court of law that an individual has a right to own firearms or howitzers, for that matter. We have the collective right to serve in the military as citizen soldiers and never be under the heel of an unjust government supported by foreign mercenaries.

This "right to bear arms" crap is a right wing fantasy, PR from the gun manufacturers in search of profits.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Er...the word "keep" means own...
the word "bear" means "carry." Historically, the understanding of the Second Amendment has always been that it refers to small arms, i.e. arms that can be kept and borne by an individual, NOT crew-served heavy weapons or ordnance. (FWIW, nuclear weapons are technically ordnance, not arms.)

For the record, gun owners are OK with heavy restrictions on automatic weapons, sound suppressed firearms, firearms over .50 caliber (some hunting guns excepted), disguised firearms, short-barreled rifles, sawed-off shotguns, etc. etc. etc. etc. Which is why such weapons have been restricted by Federal law for 72 years now, with the support of gun owners. Or have you never heard of the National Firearms Act?

The gun control debate in 2006 pertains solely to NON-automatic, non-sound-suppressed civilian firearms under .51 caliber that meet the civilian-use criteria of the National Firearms Act, and nothing else.

We gun owners are not fighting to preserve the right to keep and bear nuclear weapons, but rather to preserve the right to keep and bear civilian small arms. Rifles, shotguns, and handguns.
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ItsTheMediaStupid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-26-06 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. You keep and bear your militia issued musket
The minute men and the local militias kept arms at their homes, but they may or may not have owned them.

This is a pretty academic discussion, since I don't want to take any law abiding citizen's gun. I just don't buy the idea that it's a constitutional right, especially since that right has never been upheld in a court of law.

As for the left arming, I don't have a problem with that either. Historically RW dictatorships have used murder as intimidation.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-27-06 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. US v. Emerson (5th Circuit Court of Appeals)
Study it at your leisure. Yes, it is our right to own firearms.
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ItsTheMediaStupid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-28-06 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Congratulations, Were they all federalist society judges?
I'm glad to be more educated in this area. I'd like to know who was sitting on the 5th circuit at the time, but lack time.

Also, are there any other decisions like this one or is it an anomoly?
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Celeborn Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
15. I don't think they make up 1/3 of our population
I think about half of the people that approve of Bush right now are ignorant people who don't watch any news and basically approve of whoever the president is because they believe that's the correct answer to give to telephone pollsters. I do think around 15% of our population are total nutbags.
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motocicleta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
16. I'm on Ian's side on this one
I got scared about what would happen when kerry won the presidency. Obviously, I needn't have worried. But I do think the violent elements of the right will absolutely flip out when their sick little taste of power gets justifiably, legally taken away from them. I think we saw in the 90s what their ilk was getting up to. That ratcheting of the violence level, not just with McVeigh but also all the murders and shootings of doctors, has I think been lanced by the political heads of the country directing it in outward fashion, in effect aiming the worst human urges at Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. When that is taken away, I very much fear what will become its target. I agree with Protagoras in trying to find a civilized way to deal with the healing that needs to occur, but while doing that I will have my own backup plans, ala Ian.
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
17. We were probably very close to an armed conflict, a "revolution"
had the only vote that counted gone for Gore instead of Bush in December 2000 . . .
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-25-06 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
18. Not a Zealot and am not afraid of Zealots.
Do not seek trouble but will not run away. This is one liberal that has not considered moving or immigration and will stand my ground.

Many Democrats in D.C have not got the message what is happening in the areas they have abandoned.
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