I hope this forum is meeting the needs of many of you

[cally]

I'm finding I'm very uncomfortable here with the tone that if you aren't a perfect feminist according to others' definition than you are not welcome. I know the rules don't say that but I've seen too many posts like that. Noone has posted that to me but I've seen it done to others and I don't like it.

The threads attacking others on DU just seem like by posting here that I condone trashing others which I don't. Instead I'd prefer a tone that is more accepting of diverse viewpoints.

Am I the only one bothered by this?

[alarcojon]

1. I am certainly bothered by it

as a major recipient of this judgmental attitude. Recently, a number of posters have extended good-will gestures to me, all of which I appreciate greatly. You know who you are.

And to those who might be wondering why a man jumped in first on this topic, I've waited over three hours and nobody else has posted. I know it's late Friday night, but I waited plenty of time for women to respond before offering my thoughts. I hope some of you will offer your thoughts on cally's post in the days to come.

[tishaLA]

2. Yeah I have that sense too

It's not productive or novel. And it dissuades dialog.

[Misunderestimator]

3. I'm not bothered by that... but I am bothered by the fact that this forum

is not what I had hoped it would be. I will not humor men in this forum unless those men understand the mission statement. There are truly progressive and feminist men here. I respect and admire them. Then there are disruptive men who refuse to accept responsibility for their continuing part in keeping women down, through their words, their deeds, their attitudes, and their privileged condescension.

I could ignore them, but then their words are left to infect the forum. Sometimes confrontation is necessary, especially on our own territory. This place should be free of the passive-aggressive antagonism of men who pretend to support feminism, but refuse to change their language and behavior. Diverse viewpoints are certainly welcome, the same old crap is not.

[Eloriel]

26. I wish you would name them, because I haven't seen them

Maybe I missed them -- ?? I'm not here every day, so perhaps I did miss some. Perhaps you could link to a thread (since to name them might not be appopriate under DU rules -- ?? not sure about naming them in a positive light).

Any man who comes in here wanting to talk about MEN'S problems or their own problems as men isn't, IMNSHO, someone who's aligned with the Mission Statement. Any man who comes in here and is going to ARGUE with any woman about what is and isn't appropriate in THIS forum and argue about critiques of their participation WITHOUT SHOWING ANY INDICATION of at least having heard the criticism first, isn't IMNSHO in alignment with the Mission Statement or the spirit of the Forum.

I honestly believe that we should re-evaluate whether men should post here. I really do. There ARE other places where they can post -- including the regular Women's Issues forum, which is more lively than I thought. There's no NEED for them to post here as well. OR, there's nothing stopping them from requesting their own group for men only to address men's issues or men vis a vis women's issues. There are wonderful groups around the country of Men Stopping Violence Against Women -- so it's not like this is unheard of.

If there are truly feminist men here at DU who truly believe in and want to help advance feminism and women's equality, then let them organize their own forum for that. I'd welcome it, and wouldn't it be high time??? Too, they could always raise the issue of sexism and women's issues in GD and GDP (and NOT with yet another divisive abortion threaad!!)

I will say again what I said on another thread: sociological study(ies) have shown that in a group of women, the mere presence of men changes the dynamics, and not for the better. While I am not saying that there's no place for men in the discussions, I AM suggesting that there are other suitable places for co-ed discussions of women's issues, and some of those places include the wider world of GD and GDP, where their pro-woman, pro-feminist threads could make a much bigger difference than their posting here.

[Misunderestimator]

31. There are many feminist men here who I think are very progressive

and supportive of feminism. Unfortunately, I haven't seen a lot of them post in this group (certainly not recently) with the notable exception of A Schwarzenegger, whose posts seem VERY enlightened to me.

I won't name others, though I count them on more than my 10 fingers ;), because to do so would be to criticize them for not posting here. I wish they would, but I've already seen what happens when one is invited here :D (kidding sort of... the ones I would invite if I were so inclined, wouldn't disrupt this way).

I am beginning to agree with you that we might want to reconsider the mission statement of this group. I thought it was clear enough who was welcome and who not, but your point about a man changing the dynamics no matter what their intent is a good one. I just don't know what the answer is here... I don't think we should exclude all men, (A-S being a good example of someone whose posts I like to read), I think we just need to be clearer about what is considered disruption here. It SHOULD be a different definition than in the other forums.

On the other hand, we already do have a Women's issues forum. Why shouldn't we have a group that really is safe from the crap we put up with everywhere else? (Of course, then we'd have an invasion of trolls or sockpuppets pretending to be women, who would be even more aggressive in their disruption. I don't think there's any foolproof solution.)

:shrug:

[Ripley]

4. I think Misunderestimator says it perfectly above, Cally.

I don't like the tone here either. But I'm not sure who you are blaming? I haven't seen any women feminists force others to agree with them on their viewpoint. I have seen (since the first 24 hours this Group was started) people come in here on a daily basis to post contrary statements to the core group of women who created this Group. And those contrary posts or highly equivocating posts are obviously not sincere intentions of honest debate over feminist issues. For example, language or porn. We may all have a different position about whether the term "bitch" is hurting women, to what degree and what to do about it.

However, when someone comes into this group and posts things like "there is no wage gap between men and women over 40" or "boys will be boys" in reference to public sexist hostility, I have a problem with that. Do you think those are Feminist positions to take?

I don't see how an outspoken poster in this group would mean you condone "trashing others." Perhaps you have not read all the posts involved where someone finally had enough and spoke out in a very straight shooter manner. If you think it is an attack, alert.

But I would also wonder why you don't have a problem with the stealthy posters who post flamebait on a regular basis. Maybe you never experienced those types in the rest of DU. CL, Seventhson, Vetwife? Did you see how far they got (one even became a moderator), yet some DUers had been alerting the admins about them for months. I for one, don't like being manipulated like that and will not tolerate that BS.

Please don't let it get to you Cally, I enjoy your posting very much. You are free to express your feminist viewpoint, of course! I think I discussed with you the need for a place for women on this board a couple of years ago...look...we got it! I'm sick it has gotten so nasty too.

I hope you understand what I've typed...it's hard to point out exactly what is happening without getting my post deleted. But I think you will find quite a few of us see it very clearly.

[BlueIris]

6. Holy crap. I have (thankfully) been spared the sight of those posts.

Yeah, I've seen some weirdness and some genuinely inappropriate posts (inappropriate like breaking-forum-and-DU-rules inappropriate) and I've alerted and they've been deep-sixed, but I haven't seen anything that horrible. Man, and I thought I'd been hanging out in here a lot. It is so unfortunate to read that posters have been flagrantly spewing their anti-feminist bile in here at those levels.

[noamnety]

5. I'm not sure about meeting my "needs"

since I hadn't really defined what needs if any, I had.

But I've found the discussions here interesting, and my awareness of the use of language and its role in sexism has increased dramatically since I've been browsing around this group.

I find myself reacting stronger on other forums to sexist language as a result. I'm a little more aggressive about calling people out if they are being sexist. Some of the things that bothered me for a long time here without me being able to verbalise why (the Laura Bush fashion police, for instance) are a little clearer in my head. Before I had a vague sense that it was tacky and beneath us to make threads about that, whereas now I see it more as a pervasive and subtle way to keep women in their place and to continually judge them as potential sex objects, whether they are acting in that role or not.

[Eloriel]

7. Delete

Just not relevent.

[lukasahero]

8. This group was supposed to be for the discussion of women's rights

It was named the feminists group because some people wanted to take back the word and bring it back to a more positive one. The rules were written to express that whoever posting here should have an interest in identifying and resolving women's issues - not about who is and isn't a feminist. There are plenty of people who call themselves feminists but think everything is fine and dandy for women in this country. That's not who this group was made for.

If anyone wants to maintain the status quo regarding women in this country, if anyone thinks all the work has been done to bring women into equal partnership with men, then this group was not formed for that person. I don't care whether a person calls themself a feminist or not, I care that women achieve a truly equal partnership in this country. I care that we not let other women remain oppressed because we ourselves have overcome the obstacles.

I'm sorry so many here are disappointed with the group and are planning to leave it. I'm sorry that we're not all as carefully spoken as everyone else, but then Teresa H. Kerry was a bitch to many. If someone agrees with that, and thinks that she should have shut up and let her husband run the show or should have been more polite to the assholes who are running this country and calling her a bitch because she has an opinion and doesn't feel the need to be particularly polite about it, then maybe there's a problem with that person - not with THK. Talk about double standards.

I don't have time to deal with this right now but my take on it all is this: if you want to work for change, stay. But change begins here. I will not hold my tongue. I will not be afraid to speak what I believe. I will not be polite to people who seek to oppress me. I am done with worrying about offending my offenders. I can't imagine a group of men even considering being polite to people who seek to sabatoge their efforts.

[Misunderestimator]

9. Hear Hear lukasahero!

So very well said! :thumbsup: :hug: No more coddling our offenders!

[cally]

10. Nothing in my post at all implied that I think women

should be quiet or not speak up for themselves. How you got from my post to Teresa Heinz Kerry confuses me. My concern is that I want where feminists can discuss issues. When one or two folks make a decision that someone is not welcome then that concerns me. I enjoy challenging folks and their assumptions but I don't believe it's in my or any force for change's interests to tell someone they are not welcome when they think of themselves as one of us. That person needs to learn and grow, not be excluded IMHO.

[Misunderestimator]

11. Unless said person continues the same behavior over and over...

I am not here to educate men... perhaps you are... good for you. More power to you, actually, sincerely. After 43 years putting up with them, I was hoping this was a forum where I didn't HAVE to confront them and educate them.

That said... I am not about excluding men who need to learn... but I will NOT put up with their ignorance... not here.

[Hello_Kitty]

12. To me, the problem isn't IGNORANCE

It's ARROGANCE. I have no problem with someone who doesn't know and shows a genuine desire to learn. I do have a problem with those who think they have all the answers and condescendingly presume to "educate" us feminists. Then they adopt a phony posture of hurt and indignation when they get called on their bullshit. Please. They know exactly what they're doing and they know exactly what the response will be.

If you're a disingenuous troll, we're going to call you on it and your posts are probably going to be deleted. If you're not, then you have nothing to worry about. It's that simple.

[Misunderestimator]

13. You're right of course... ignorance would be easer to deal with...

This behavior is intentional.

[Ripley]

14. I guess you don't want to respond to me.

Honestly, I don't know why you would choose to side with people who have shown themselves to be contrary to everything this Group is supposed to be for.

Of course people can disagree and they do all the time about the media, porn, clothing, words, etc. Have you read those posts?

Yet there are a couple of people here who are on a mission. When 90% of their posts are purposefully against others, why do you think that is? I have proof. They are lying to you and trying to divide and conquer. It is wrong. I don't hate men. I have responded kindly to many of their posts. But I don't tolerate flamebait and sexism especially when it comes directly from someone who claims to have been a marching Feminist from the 1960's/1970's, yet decries NOW and defends status quo.

Cally, I wish you could see the pattern, you obviously don't. I don't think anyone in here is being unfairly told they aren't welcome. And certainly there is no concerted effort by folks to make a decision on that. Who do you mean? Why don't you be more specific and let's discuss it more openly.

I'm up for this, are you?

[cally]

15. I chose to not respond to most of the posts

not just yours. I just don't have the fortitude due to personal issues right now to get into an all out debate over this. I'm sorry, I should have just quit posting here without any explanation which was my original intent. I made a mistake.

[Ripley]

16. I don't understand at all.

You started this thread, obviously complaining about some people here. I just wanted to know if it was me? You don't want to debate it, yet you started the thread. I'm confused as to what you want.

So who has convinced you to leave this Group and why don't you want to explain it further? Honestly, I don't understand what I have done to make you so angry. Just because a couple of highly suspect people are PMing people with blatant lies about me and others, doesn't mean you have to believe them and ignore those of us that person is talking about.

Think about it Cally. Show me my exact words that mistakenly told someone else here how to think or that they should adhere to "my" (whatever that is) version of feminism. Yet, think about certain posters who have come in here only to make blanket statements about how some of us are forcing our beliefs on them.

Don't you find it strange that all of us that have encountered each other over the years all over DU and in the WR&I forum were happy to start this Group, yet all of the sudden there are new people showing up here on a daily basis and posting very unusual things?

Do you think us long time DUers became monsters? Or do you think maybe someone has an agenda and is very good at what is typically called "disruption." Whereas the topic of a thread is shut down and diverted into a flamewar. Funny how that only happens around a couple of people in here. Yet you seem to be blaming the rest of us.

:shrug: Whatever.

[cally]

19. I'll try my best to explain but I don't think I can

This has nothing to do about ANY individual poster or post. I did get three PMs about this post. I did not engage or accept any of the trashing of fellow DUers. I would post them and my response if it wasn't against the rules. I'm not sure the PM you refer to is one I got but I would never accept trashing of someone I know from their posts without much evidence.

For a while now, when I see someone post a link to a specific thread or post, I worry if it's fair to have a group that lambasts another individual when they can't come here to defend themselves. I think about how I would feel if someone did that to me. My post is all about what's right for me and not what's right for others. I'm well aware that to change opinions, we all have to operate as a group. So, it's not a criticism of others actions so much as it's about my own reaction to it. I'm not comfortable with it.

I don't know if you've noticed, but I just don't engage in trying to figure out who is a freeper or a plant. Since I quit acting as a mod long ago, I don't research fellow DUers posts. I have occasionally asked for a PM when something erupts on DU because curiousity gets me everytime. For the most part, I figure if we (all DU) just ignore the infiltrators then they'll go away or the mods will eventually get them. Maybe that's a copout, but that's what I do. I don't want to worry about someone's motives everytime I read a post.

I believe that we can't succeed with a feminist agenda without men. Men have too much power for any of us not to figure out how to form a message where we get moderates and men on our side. When the few men who came here are questioned on their credentials, I found it wrong. I'm not defending any poster but just the general sense that we have to win this battle for women's rights and we need progressives help.

This is the continuiing battle in feminism. Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton argued about this. I have spend hours debating this topic but I thinks that for another thread.

So, I made my post out of frustration and not rationality. The mistake I made was to not wait until the current ruckus died down and until I formed a more coherent post. I know this one is not that but I sensed your frustration/anger with me and I wanted to respond.

[Misunderestimator]

20. Just one point to make about disruptors...

CL/Padraig was here for over a year. Many of us knew he was a troll. The only thing that finally got him banned was the research done by members, not moderators or admins. It was done because the disruption tainted the entire site for many of us.

They are not innocuous. They damage the place. Ignoring them does not solve the problem.

No one is saying that we don't want men involved. But men who seek only to disrupt and confront and attempt to convince us that feminism is really humanism and we are all on equal ground, does no good for our cause or this group. Those men are VERY FEW here, fortunately... I can count them on one hand. The progressive men who contribute valuably to this group are much more prevalent. Thank god for that.

To me... the "few men who came here" most recently to which you refer, do not belong. I have given the benefit of the doubt, but repeated evidence has convinced me to stop being nice. Dammit, this is OUR forum. Many men DO fit in here and are welcome... To accept the few others would be tantamount to accepting freepers in GD.

Why should feminists accept non-feminists in this forum, unless they truly are here to learn something?

(And I say this with all due respect... I do normally respect your postings very much.)

[Ripley]

21. Thanks for explaining it further.

I understand where you are coming from now.

Re: men. Of course feminists want men to understand and support their basic issues: equality, non-discrimination and reproduction freedom. I believe a few men have posted excellent contributions in here. But as you may recall from the formation of this Group...this is to be a place of refuge from the rest of DU where we must continuously defend our Feminist positions. When the front page of this Group consisted of mostly posts by men, and they were talking about themselves, some of us found it inappropriate.

I don't believe anyone told someone to leave because they were a man, but because of other reasons I won't go into here.

I think another poster really has it right...I forgot who posted it...but she was disappointed we even had to have this Group For Crying Out Loud!!! If DU is known as the best, biggest Liberal Board on the Internet in America...why is there even a need for a separate group?

Why do so many, and believe me there are hundreds of women on DU who know this place tolerates open sexism and misogyny in ways that are not tolerated for any other discriminated group. I guess that anger and feeling of betrayal by so many supposed liberal men and women in the main DU forums gets some of us riled up and yes, angry. And we don't appreciate being told we're uppity when we do so.

I hope we understand one another better now. I don't want you to say you made a mistake in posting this thread...you obviously were bothered enough to start it. I guess we just need to hash it out every once in awhile and maybe we can understand what's happening in this Group.

I just want to leave you with this analogy I think of about this subject. I can't imagine white people going into the AA Group and demanding a discussion about white people's place in the efforts of blacks in ending racism. Yet blacks clearly need white people to support them in order for change to happen. Yet it is assumed to be acceptable for men to do that here? I don't think so.

Anyway, hope you stick around...thanks again for responding.

[lukasahero]

23. Maybe it's the timing, maybe it's the "vagueness"

but I got to THK because I assumed your post was in response to Eloriel not being "polite enough" in her disagreement with the "men's role in feminism" thread which, by the way, is no where near as impolite as those up in arms over there are making it out to be. If I was wrong and that is not what prompted your post, I apologize but could use further clarification on what it was that did prompt it. Speaking in genrealities leaves people unclear as to what is really being referred to when complaints are registered.

Reading some stuff here in this thread, it seems I'm out of the PM loop, leading me, of course, to believe I'm being discussed in it. Whatever. If anyone wants to talk openly and honestly about what the problem is, I'd love to discuss it.

You know, I first tried to organize this group because some women in the WR&I forums felt they didn't have a safe place to talk about how the issues actually affect their day to day lives. A post of rage about rape was turned on by some people there to tell the poster that she wasn't "polite enough" in her rage over her rape and I vowed then to do whatever I could to offer women a safe place to talk about that stuff here.

Am I one of the posters now being talked about as deciding who should be here and who should not? I suppose some people here feel that way. I see it as I am one of the people here trying to keep it "safe" because that is what I promised I would do. I can assure you I am not in cahoots with anyone. I do however, understand the rules that were written by concensus as to what would be permissable to the group because it is, in fact, a group with specific rules of what is and what is not acceptable here.

I don't see that as one or two people making that decision (presumably you mean me and Eloriel from that "men's role" thread, but correct me if I'm wrong), I see that as a concensus of a group of people who were given ample time to voice their concerns and objections to the rules when they were being written. Before people suggest that they didn't know the group was being formed, I PM'd everyone who had ever posted in the WR&I forum to let them know about the creation of this group and get their input. Many people who have joined this group since it's creation never posted in that forum. I'd love to hear why not. It has been around for a long time.

Regarding people who need to learn and grow, how is anyone who doesn't think they need to learn supposed to grow?

Finally, I have a lot more I could say about "polite" women: I can tell you about the running joke with my frineds because I didn't want to be "rude" to the person who was basically stalking me; or what it's like to play in a band where guys in the audience walk right up on stage and grope you but because you have to keep the fans "pleased," you have to pretend that it's all just fun and games even though you're really scared to death; or I can tell you what it feels like to be more afraid of making a scene on the subway because some creep is coming on to you than you are about telling the jerk to f* off so you just sit there and pretend everything's just fine. I can also tell you how being "polite" gets you into an abusive relationship: not because, as some like to suggest, you think you can "change" him but because he won't frickin' leave and you're too polite to tell him to get the f*ck out. But that's probably good for a thread of it's own.

[cally]

28. Again, it was not ONE particular poster,

post or thread that prompted my post. Again, I should have waited until this particular ruckus died down. Again, I did not engage in a PM discussion. I just got a couple of PMs which I replied to without engaging in the discussion.

I really don't get the leap from my post about debate on an online forum and concern that folks are alienating those who may be supporters to telling someone to fuck off in real life.

I posted about a general feeling I was/am having. I could now go and find all the instances where I noticed this and engage in that debate. That would not be honest of me because I did not do that before my post. I wanted to know if others were concerned like I was. It appears that few are. Fine. It's not the first time or probably the last time that few agree with me.

[Eloriel]

27. Cally -- here's where the confusion stems

Edited to say that I read a subsequent post of yours that explained a little better where you're coming from, but I think my point still have validity, so I'll leave my post as originally posted.


WHO are you talking about in your OP? Are you talking about me, who can be quite, um, "direct" and dare to have strong opinions about what is "real feminism" and what isn't? Or the women here who are a lot more laissaiz faire about feminism, and think it's just super to call other women bitches (for example, and a rather superficial example)? Or are you talking about some of the men who've been here? All of the above?

I don't have a clue, and maybe others do, but maybe they don't. *I* certainly felt targeted by your OP. Was I? Why don't you just be specific? If you can't name names (DU rules), then give specific examples. That would be a LOT less mysterious, and a LOT more clear and healthy too. I'm just not into guessing games OR passive-aggressive behavior either -- and while I'm not sure you're being passive-aggressive, I'm also not sure you're not.

So let's all get into adult mode and hash out our problems and differences. Let's NAME them, OWN them, take responsibility for our own feelings about them, and discuss everything. Festering wounds that lead to snide remarks just aren't healthy and cause more damage in the long run than just getting the cards on the table, even if that is difficult and seems painful for some.

[cally]

29. I posted to Luk..., but my post applies to this one also

Again, I wasn't targetting anyone. I'm sorry for the vagueness and I should not have posted that without wanting to spend much time documenting what I was saying. I'm not able to do that now. I did not realize the reaction I would get. I should have anticipated that but I didn't. I know this is a copout but since I posted that I've learned some distressing personal news and I don't have the time nor emotional energy to engage further in this debate. I need to take care of myself right now. Peace.

[Ripley]

30. Hey, Cally...

I don't think we are all in disagreement with you at all. Yes, there were some very nasty vibes in here over the last week. Who couldn't help but notice it?!

I think some things have been hashed out and mostly settled down.

I'm sorry you have something bad to deal with personally. Please take care of yourself, but come back here when you can. Peace to you.

[Eloriel]

34. I didn't see it as a copout

And I'm very sorry for whatever personal problems you're going through. Truly. I'm sure that makes everything else all the worse as well -- especially if you were counting on this Group forum to be more supportive or more of a refuge than you've found it.

With all that said, it's still better IMO to be specific about one's complaints, and I hope if and when you're able to come back and address the issue again that you will sort it out for everyone, so it CAN be addressed.

Best wishes for satisfactorily resolving your personal life issues.

[spooky3]

17. I like the forum. I've learned a lot.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. I don't know, Cally

I've thought of the Groups as places for people who DO agree with one another and want a refuge where they don't have to put up with people trying to "educate" them.

For example, the religious people don't hassle the Atheists and Agnostics forum and the atheists and agnostics don't hassle the Christian Liberals and People of Faith.

Now in a Forum, all gloves are off...

[alarcojon]

22. A brief thought

I am sorry that there have been so many male disruptors on this group. I have no desire to divert, disrupt, or hijack anything. And I am fine with people calling me on any troubling statements I might make, but please understand that they would be mistakes made on a path to a greater understanding of women's issues, not part of some sinister plot to disrupt this group. A little civility would be nice.

Please be aware that I read all posts directed at me, even the downright nasty ones, and I DO think about any issues which might be hiding in the venom. I will not, however, respond directly to any personal attacks, as I do not want to meet negative energy with negative energy.

[shockra]

24. I enjoy your posts.

I remember you mentioning that you like Gloria Anzaldua. I have her Interviews/Entrevistas. I read Borderlands and was so impressed that I had to hear more of her thoughts. She says things that I've never heard anywhere else and puts them in an original way.

I agree that things can get heated here. That's one reason why I hang back and don't read or post much. It's unfortunately too easy to be misunderstood on such a sensitive topic, or not be up to date on all the many sides of feminism. Feminism encompasses such a wide range of areas. One can easily be insensitive without meaning to.

[alarcojon]

25. Thanks, shockra

and I enjoyed your thoughts on the other thread.

Yes, I like Anzaldua. For me, a lot of it is how she speaks of being neither fully Mexican nor fully American, and about speaking Spanglish. I definitely wrestled with those issues growing up. In a way, she was one of my earliest introductions to feminism.

edited to add: If you don't have "This Bridge We Call Home: Radical Visions For Transformation," which came out in 2002, you should check it out....

[alarcojon]

32. Did you also see the Sut Jhally discussion on another thread?

He is a very interesting guy. You might want to check out his website. He has done anti-sexist, anti-racist, and anti-imperialist work, collaborating with scholars like Mary Pipher, Edward Said, and Michael Eric Dyson.

http://www.sutjhally.com

[shockra]

33. Thanks!

No, I'd never heard of him.

Also, thanks for the GA book suggestion. I didn't know about that one. :)