How to raise a feminist?

[trotsky]

First, a shout out to beam me up scottie for being an all-around kick-ass individual and pointing out this new group had been created.

With the props out of the way, I do have a serious question.

As the father of a 4-year-old girl, I want to do everything possible to make her a strong, independent, assertive FEMINIST. I don't want her to have to rely on a man for identity, protection, or self-worth.

I would appreciate any advice or input from fellow group readers on the best ways to accomplish this, especially with regards to a father's role. (E.g., What did your dad do that was good or bad, what would you have liked him to do, etc.?)

Thanks in advance!

[Ripley]

1. I don't have kids, so I wouldn't presume to tell you...

how to raise yours. I can however, give you some of my personal experience.

When I was a young girl I was what is commonly called a "Tomboy." Really interested in sports; not really interested in wearing dress-up girly clothes. My father had a very cool convertible sportscar. I would go into the garage when he was working on it and ask questions. He would always tell me to "go help my Mother."

I had to teach myself how to use tools and take care of a car later in life. I think parents should teach boys and girls basic "life" skills...using tools, cooking, being athletic, washing clothes, etc.

[trotsky]

2. Hey, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for.

Don't worry about presuming to tell me how to raise my kids, I want to know exactly what you just said: what things did your dad do or not do that you wish he had done more of, or not at all.

What I gather from your experience is to indulge her curiosity wherever it strikes, and never let her think that "girls don't do <this>."

[Ripley]

3. I could have won the Indy 500 by now!

If only...

[beam me up scottie]

4. Wow, oh wow. Thanks Trotsky.

Fucker, made me cry...

[trotsky]

5. Aw...

Seriously, bmus, I've been on DU for awhile and you're one of the coolest people I know. I thought of you right away on Modem Butterfly's thread about not taking shit from anybody! Now wipe those tears away and give me some advice, soldier!

[beam me up scottie]

10. Just be yourself.

My dad never did stuff with just my brothers.
I liked guns, he taught me to shoot.
I liked chess, he taught me to play.
I liked the woods, he would take me with him when he cut down trees.
I liked motors, he let me help him take things apart.
He also taught me to love books, crave knowledge, play fair, practice tolerance, be kind to other creatures and honor myself above all else.
Don't do anything different than you would with a son.
Teach her to demand equality and to never back down when she knows she's right.
She already has a head start with you for a dad, how can she go wrong?
:loveya:

[trotsky]

11. Thank you, bmus.

For the flattery especially. :):)

Sounds like your dad did very well with you.

[Lars39]

6. Be *as* involved or more in her life when she's a teen.

Many guys start backing off when their daughters need their influence the most.
I think that's one reason some girls form relationships with boys light years before they're ready.

[trotsky]

7. What are the best ways to do that?

Take an interest in her interests? (I.e., If she gets into sports, go to her events, and so forth?)

Soon I want to start up the idea of a "daddy date" where she & I go out alone on some activity and I can model how I want men to treat her so she can hopefully recognize when some guy is a jerk. Will she still want to do that sort of thing in her teen years? I know from watching my sister grow up as well as stories my wife tells, teen girls have an awful tough time being close with their mothers at that time. Can that extend to their fathers too, or is there more of a bond?

[Lars39]

12. You've got some good ideas!

Ripley had some good ones in post#1, too.
There's only more of a bond if you make one.
Making sure to have one on one time is the key.
Even if it's just driving her to school every day; sometimes it's easier to talk in the car.
Unrushed sit-down meals are a must, too.

Teens may gripe a little about having to do family stuff, but for the most part they really like it,
even if they don't let on that they do. :)

It's hard to strike a balance between family, school activities, and friends.
I've had to learn to monitor our "busyness" factor and say, "sorry, no; we need some family time."

[cally]

14. Teen girls will still want to hang with Dad

and maybe more so than with their Mom. My husband takes my teens to movies frequently.

I've read and noticed that too many Dads get uncomfortable around their daughters when they hit puberty. They have a difficult time hugging them and showing affection. Some men get weird when their daughters show interest in boys and dress to attract boys. The best thing you can do is to maintain your relationship and show affection and interest. She needs, NEEDS, to have a healthy, affectionate relationship with a male who respects her. It's critical to developing a girl's self-esteem and ability to stand up for herself.

Both of my teens are feminists. I think they just learned by my comments and outrage when I saw sexist actions. I remember being extremely annoyed when they told me that the boys took over the computers in first grade. We had a discussion on how they should not let that happen. It's a lifetime of those discussions that help a girl become strong.

[PassingFair]

16. Trotsky...

Don't sweat it, you're an open minded, freethinking individual. Of course you'll raise another one!
One word of advice, though.
Don't call it a daddy "date". Too Oedipal. And gender defining....

[trotsky]

19. Good suggestion.

And thanks for the compliment. :)

[lukasahero]

26. "Will she still want to do that sort of thing "

Oh god yes she will! She may not react as overtly to it or in a way that will be as noticeable to you, but my dad did that with me and 25 years later it still means the world to me that he did.

I'm late to the party (still trying to catch up on all the posts generated from day one) but trotsky, you really impress me here. I think your daughter is going to be just fine. :)

My own .02 cents: my dad never treated me "different" because I was a girl. He always told me, and made me believe, that I could do anything I wanted to if I tried. He taught me how to throw a baseball and change a tire (he's not mechanically inclined or I'm sure he'd have gone the whole how to fix a car route). He set up a punching bag for me so I could "practice boxing like Rocky". (Hey, I was a kid, we all have our youthful indiscretions. ;-))

But I think the thing that has made the most impact in my life is that he always listened to me, he asked for my opinion on things - things that mattered both in the family and in the world - and then he listened. (i.e. - he didn't start a conversation just to impart his own wisdom through it - or at least it never felt that way to me.)

I made a lot of mistakes in my life and one of them was in marrying an abusive man. (Long story best told in another thread at another time.) The only reason I was able to extricate myself from that situation was because of my dad. My ex used to defend his actions with things like "this is what married people do, they fight" and "men are more aggressive, it's just what we do". The only reason I didn't succumb to believing him was that I was always able to think (if not dare say) "that's not true - my dad doesn't".

I believe that children learn more by our example than all the lectures they ever hear. Sounds like your daughter is going to learn a host of good things from you.

[trotsky]

30. Thank you.

I appreciate the compliment and your sharing. You know, it seems to be a near-universal desire of fathers to want to protect their daughters. It also seems pretty obvious to me that protecting your daughter begins with preparing her to protect and fend for herself in a world that's still incredibly hostile towards women. You won't be there for her forever, and there's plenty of jackasses she might meet (like your ex) that aren't going to "protect" her AT ALL.

[Solly Mack]

8. Language is important....very important.

Don't say "Girls are as good as boys"
Say "Girls and boys are equal"

Don't say "Girls can do anything a boy can do"
Say "Girls can do anything"

I don't much like the word "Tomboy"

She isn't a tomboy...she's a girl that doesn't fit the stereotype...and since it's a stereotype to begin with, we know it isn't accurate. Some girls are more active than others is all...same with boys. I wouldn't call a little boy "girlie" for not wanting to play baseball.

Besides which, all that gender stereotyping promotes GLBT bashing. A boy called girlie will one day be called fag by others wishing to bully him...as if being gay is somehow bad and makes boys less than a man.(since it promotes the idea that girls are less than men as well) Works the same way with girls...(dyke)

Words make impressions, lasting impressions. She'll hear your words in her head for years to come...they'll help shape her thinking.

When you catch yourself about to say something that in any way puts a girl as second to a boy....stop yourself. :)

[Ripley]

9. Heh. That's the reason I put Tomboy in quotes in my post.

Tell me, if people think calling a girl "tomboy" is innocent and just indicates she is prone to liking or excelling in historically "boy" things, where is the equivalent term for boys who excel or like historically "girl" things?

That just shows the inherent societal belittlement of the Female.

Good advice for Dad, Solly!

[trotsky]

13. I went to college during the P.C. early 1990s.

So I'm pretty well acquainted with the real harm that words can do. Good advice. Thanks!

[Eloriel]

15. The most important things IMO

are to

(a) help her have maximum self-esteem. I think that means never shaming her even a little, never humiliating her even a little, always listening to her with full attention, and always lighting up when you see her come into the room.

I don't think you can TALK her into having self-esteem ("My, how pretty you look today," or "What a smart girl you are") and in fact, don't ever pin her "value" or your approval to any performance by her. (We are human "beings" not human "doings.") Author John Bradshaw, makes the distinction between "situational self-esteem" versus core self-esteem. With situational self-esteem, it's entirely dependent on what you've done or accomplished, and too often, other people's attitudes and beliefs and responses to you. There is not enough situational self-esteem in the world to do the job of lacking CORE self-esteem. And not having CORE self-esteem means people will try to make do with situational self-esteem and will go around forever seeking approval that they didn't get for being just who they are -- no strings attached!! -- as infants, toddlers, and children.

"Unconditional love" is a buzzword right now and I hear a lot of people claiming they love someone unconditionally. Clue: unconditional love is not something we can achieve on the earth plane, but it IS worth striving for. It means you love the other person no matter WHAT -- no matter how ugly, no matter how bad the behavior, no matter how much they dislike or hate you, etc., etc., etc. Noo, the kind of love we're capable of as humans isn't usually THAT unconditional. But it's your job to aim for that. NOT doting, just as much love and compassion as possible, especially in those circumstances Erma Bombeck was writing about when she said, "Remember children need love most when they least deserve it."

To the extent possible, your love for her -- and her perception of your love for her -- should never be involve what she accomplishes or does, but simply who she is.

Why is self-esteem so important? It gives her a solid foundation on which to build herself for herself. It gives her the ability to say no to peers when they suggest things that aren't in her best interests. It gives her the ability to spot phonies and people who will use her. It gives her the ability to avoid being emotionally manipulated by others, whether girls who aren't capable of sharing friendship, or boys who merely want to use and abuse her, or criminal Presidents who need to be impeached. It gives her the ability to reach for what SHE wants in life, with the expectation she can achieve it. It doesn't give her the big head. Quite the contrary, it gives her the ability to be magnanimous because she doesn't need to fill up on situational self-esteem from her peers and teacers and is free to simple be who she is. And at times most important of all, it gives her the ability to say NO without guilt, regret or remorse.

Teach her to question authority, including yours and her mother's and her teachers', etc., and to be able to negotiate for herself. Of all the complaints I have about my own childhood, a chief one is that we were taught obedience, with no ability to question or "negotiate" something different. My parents were strict, but not ogres, but still as we got older we should have had the ability to negotiate for what we wanted (and NEEDED!) instead of just exhibit blind obedience. Not learning that as a life skill hampered me later, considerably.


Finally, one of the best pieces of advice -- framing, really -- I ever heard as a parent myself was that our children are "apprentice adults." Really, just thinking of them that way puts a different emphasis on the whole matter and facilitates a far more productive approach to parenting, I think. Our job is to help them learn how to be successful adults (and I don't mean material success, tho that can be included as well).

Good luck. How I envy your daughter! My dad told me, circa 1961 when I was probably a freshman in h.s., "Now, don't be too smart (in school). The boys don't like that." LOL. I knew immediately I'd have to find a better class of boy, by golly. And so I did.

[trotsky]

20. LOL

"The boys don't like that." :eyes:

Well, some boys do. I can't imagine suffering through a relationship or marriage where my wife was submissive or didn't act "too smart." Ugh.

And great advice, thanks!

[MidwestMomma]

17. Make sure she doesn't buy society's message that girls don't need

to be smart.

Usually around grade 5 or 6 it seems girls start getting the message that it's more important for boys to well in math, for boys to succeed and that it might be easier for a girl to succeed if she let's the boys think they're smarter then her.

Value your daughters opinions and feelings. Don't make a big deal about 'backtalking' like some do. Let her know it's okay to have a different opinion than you and that you won't withhold your love and respect if she doesn't agree with you.

As someone upthread said, try to be aware of sayings like "You throw/ran like a girl".

Also, when she sees that you treat her mom as an equal partner, then she'll expect that in her relationships.

Those are just some random thoughts. Good luck. She's lucky to have such caring parents.

[trotsky]

22. Most definitely.

Luckily she's got a great gender role model in her mother, too, who is extremely smart and knows how to balance work and family.

Thank you for the kind words.

[marions ghost]

18. My dad wasn't my role model

for stuff that is in the traditional male domain. He was terrible at fixing things--in fact my mom didn't want him to fix anything because she was better at it. He didn't care anything about cars, fishing, hunting, woodworking, fooling around in the garage, etc. and the only sport he liked was bowling. Generic Fathers' Day cards are so lame--they never relate to my dad.

So what did Dad do for his daughters? He told us wonderful stories that he made up. He answered all our endless questions. He did magic tricks for us. He got into things with us that were typically gender-specific without any "nah, that's for girls" stuff. He gave us a small model train one Christmas which we loved, but he also helped us cut out paper dolls. We all had fun with a chemistry set, but Dad would also play dress-up and let us paint him with face-paints. Dad helped us make lean-tos and huge snowmen and castles on the beach. He took us girls to interesting places we would never have the chance to go to alone--to the mountains, to remote beaches, to industrial places, to visit people we had never met, to the newspaper where he worked as a reporter, to odd cultural attractions such as art exhibits and all kinds of museums, no matter how dinky. There was no place that he went that he didn't think his daughters should go along. He taught us that opportunities abound, that anything can be interesting no matter how insignificant, and that you don't need a lot of money to be happy. I guess what Dad did for us was expand our horizons. All kids need this, but girls ESPECIALLY need it, as society still tries to program girls to be good little consumers and to stay within acceptably feminine confines. So, I would say, be sure to Expand Her Horizons --in the way that works best for you both. If all she wants to do is play with Barbies, OK take Barbie to the mountains and maybe Barbie will accidentally fall over a waterfall...just kidding.

Obviously my Dad was an explorer, and it was what he was best at. He wanted us girls to be creative and curious and adventurous. He got involved with us as kids and he still is with us many years later, leading the way for how to grow older gracefully. There was never any expectation from Dad that we be anything but what we wanted to be. He didn't impose anything. He only guided, gently.
---------
An aside:
I don't want to stress physical protection too much, but I think most kids, esp girls, benefit from an intro to self-defense (with or without martial arts overtones) before they leave home. This is just something to think about--it's not for everybody. But I think this carries over into other areas beyond physical defense. It decreases feelings of vulnerability and esp teaches girls that aggression can be met with an appropriate defense. (I think they should teach basic self-defense in high schools, for all kids). Also suggest to make sure your daughter gets some chances to be outdoors in nature, with groups or family--without too many scheduled sports or activities. Away from TVs and computers. Just being In Nature. This encourages self-sufficiency and awareness, and REALITY.
-----------
I guess what I'm saying is--just be yourself and have fun with your daughter (that dour strict father knows best thing is SO yesterday). You want your daughter to trust you. Don't be too obvious about wanting her to be a feminist. Give her enough inner strength to deal with the sexist world herself. And be there when the going gets rough. My Dad never taught me to be a feminist--he just taught me to trust my best instincts, which then led to a feminist bent.
Good luck. :) You know, I think I'm going to send this little essay to him for Fathers Day.

[trotsky]

23. Sounds like your dad was one of the good ones!

Excellent advice and examples. Thank you very much.

[lukasahero]

27. "I think I'm going to send this little essay to him for Fathers Day. "

You really should - this is beautiful and quite a tribute to your dad. He sounds like a great man.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

21. There are two things my mom drilled into me:

1.) You don't need a man to be happy

and

2.) The world is unfair. As a woman you need to be twice as smart and work twice as hard to survive in a man's world.


As a kid, I had heard these things, but until I saw that they were true with my own eyes, I couldn't believe it. The first time I saw my mom be discriminated against, we were at a car dealership. My mother was a single mom who provided 100% of the income. The salesmen ignored her. Finally she got the attention of one and he said to her "That's a big purchase, shouldn't you wait for your husband to get here?".

I don't know if she will have to see for herself how cold and cruel the world is. Unfortunately, it won't be long before she does.

Unfortunately, my dad didn't offer me any advice. He was a drunk who beat my mom and cheated on her. It was his actions that made her realize that not only could she survive without a man, in her particular case, she was better off without a man.

I admire you for being a great dad. Your daughter is very lucky to have you.

[trotsky]

24. I don't know how women can put up with that.

Hopefully she didn't have to buy the car there?

Reminds me of a car dealership experience I had. And this was only about 4-5 years ago. It was a few years after the new Beetles had come out, and I wanted to test drive one. So I go to the nearest dealer, and right away I felt like I had stepped back in time to the 1950s/early 60s or something. The decor, but also the fact that at least one of the salespeople SMOKED in their office! The entire building reeked of smoke! My first instinct was to just leave, but I really wanted to try one of those bugs.

So I asked about a test drive, and they said it was currently out on one but I could wait outside for my turn. Yay! Outside, away from the smoke! Anyway, about 5 minutes later the Beetle pulls up and this guy and his wife/gf get out with the sales guy. The woman was obviously in mid-conversation and very angry. As she stormed away, she was saying loudly, "I would *never* buy a car here!" The man walked away after her. Nervously, I looked at the sales guy, who said to me quietly, "Looks like she needs to be slapped around a bit."

Holy f'ing shit! I was too stunned to say anything! I just walked away and got into my clunky old car and got away from there as fast as I could. The whole experience DID end up being like a trip back in time. To a horrible time! Violent sexism, alive and well.

Anyway, thank you for sharing and for the nice compliments.

[redqueen]

25. Holy crap!

I woulda gone off... but I'm mouthy like that. ;)

I would offer advice if I could, but I'm muddling through myself. :hi:

[trotsky]

29. You know, I have always regretted not confronting that asshole.

But I truly was just stunned. You'd just like to think that we've evolved somewhat as a species over the last few thousand years but that crap is still alive and well.

[geniph]

32. Car dealers especially can be a piece of work

When I bought my Subaru, I'd done a year's worth of research before selecting that car. No joke. I'd test driven it precisely a year earlier. When I went in to buy it, my husband came along with me just so he could see it (his finances weren't involved in the purchase, but I wanted to see if it was comfortable for him to drive, too, since he's so big). The salesman kept trying to tell HIM things about the car. My husband kept turning away from the guy and saying, "I don't know anything about this car and it isn't my purchase. You have to talk to my wife, she's the one that knows about it." The guy even tried to talk me out of buying a stick because "women usually prefer automatics." Um, fella, I've been driving for 30 years, and I HATE automatics.

Unsurprisingly, I ended up going to a different dealership to actually purchase the car, one with a sensible salesman. The guy talked to me for about two minutes, then went in the office, collected the key, and said, "let me know what you think after you drive it."

Car salesmen are almost all guys, and they stand around all day and try to out-guy each other, so some of them turn into complete unregenerate assholes (presuming they weren't to begin with).

[NashVegas]

28. First, Make Sure There Are Brothers Who Get to Run Around Shirtless

Past the age of 3. Seriously. That was probably my first encounter with inequality.

[trotsky]

31. You know, the funny thing is...

my wife & I have both commented to each other that if our daughter doesn't grow up to be some sort of activist, we'll be surprised. She's ALWAYS had very little tolerance for any situation that she views even remotely unfair and is more than willing to voice her displeasure. She might just have some nice liberal/feminist genes built right in. :)