Postpregnancy plastic surgery: "Is the 'Mom Job' Really Necessary?"

[Ellen Forradalom]

Similar to the "should women go grey" article: mainstream-media misogyny expressed as a question that should never have to occur to a sane woman in the first place.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/04/fashion/04skin.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Features this little gem of a quote from Dr. David A. Stoker, a plastic surgeon in Marina Del Rey, CA:

"The severe physical trauma of pregnancy, childbirth and breast-feeding can have profound negative effects that cause women to lose their hourglass figures."

I nominate this guy for Misogynist Asshat of the Week.

[ismnotwasm]

1. Ok, now that's really disgusting.

And not to objectify myself, but I had the best figure of my life after childbirth. Both times. Breast feeding helped helping my uterus go back to pre birth size, and encouraged me to think about what I was eating. Milk filled breasts are lovely, and losing the "size" after I was finished bothered me not at all.

I don't give a shit about a few stretch marks, all boobs sag sooner or later. Through healthy diet and exercise my body looked great.

Still does as far as I'm concerned. I'm healthy, I get to move, think, interact with the world through my body. I love it. I take good care of it, and my body takes good care of me. What would I do without it?


"Hourglass figures"? So now we all need the same body shape?

I second your nomination.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

3. Right on!

Furthermore, that old saw about beauty standards being the inevitable result of men's biological preference for certain proportions that signal fertility is a pile of horsehockey. For one thing, I used to live in an area with a lot of female fashion models walking around. Supposedly the apex of feminine desireability. Hourglass, my ass. Most of them were built like (very tall) teenaged boys. No breasts and no ass. Lanky arms and legs and enormous feet and hands. Not slamming them, because there is nothing wrong with any body type that you are born with. But give me a fracking break about how the they are the embodiment of peak fertility. And being so scawny that you possibly don't menstuate hardly makes you good breeding stock.

All this twaddle about the importance of waist to hip ratio to fertility and how the same man who can't see his damn socks in the middle of the damn floor can amazingly, and instantaneously, calculate yours and use it as a determination of whether he deems you worthy of his seed misses one very important point. That is that the best marker of a woman's fertility is...prior childbirth! And women who have given birth are more likely not to have the Almighty All Important Hourglass Figure than those who have. If men want fertile women, then women who look like they've had a few children should be Teh Hawtness.

Sorry for the rant....:blush:

[Ellen Forradalom]

4. Fashion models get the gig

because they're walking clothes hangers and because the camera adds ten pounds. To their credit, an awful lot of men do not understand how the runway beanpoles can be considered hawt.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

6. Absolutely

But I've heard more than one evo-psych peddler try to explain why models are at top of the beauty echelon. Our culture's current bizarre reverence for women shaped like beanpoles doesn't fit their theories about human attraction so they try like hell to pretend that there is some scientific basis for it.

[spooky3]

34. I think these are excellent points.

The models are not just clothes hangers; many of the men with the most resources in society see them as the pinnacle of female attractiveness. Take a look at who the attractive men with money--business people, athletes, stars, etc., find attractive, TYPICALLY (not always) squire down the red carpet, or marry. It isn't the woman with the hourglass figure, and certainly not the one that the evo-psych folks say signal fertility. It isn't even the "beanpole". It is the pretty, very thin woman who has very large breasts, naturally or otherwise. And almost never do you see such men with women who might be considered average physically, but who are known to be brilliant, talented, and accomplished. I'm not saying this to slam men, because obviously some men don't fall into this category. I'm saying it only as evidence of who is considered the most desirable woman by the men who have the most choices.

[bliss_eternal]

12. Walking clothes hangers...

...is EXACTLY the way they are described--in the industry.

I watched a profile about New York's fashion week. So disturbing.

It profiled a few models getting started in the industry. Showed them out on "go see's", interviews for jobs, etc. Really difficult to watch. The designers were very condescending, and talked to the models so disrespectfully. They treated them like 'objects' not people--so the clothe hanger thing seems appropriate.

Sometimes they spoke about them passive aggressively--kind of loud whispering, but still audible, allowing the models to hear. "Um, a little too healthy." "...so fat." All of these comments about women who's ribcages were visible. :eyes:

One of the models I LOVED, because she seemed determined to not get sucked into the insanity. She seemed to understand that it was bullshit, even though she played the game to a degree by participating as a model. A designer told her she could "drop a few." She said after the interview that she wasn't losing any more weight because she knew her size was ok. "...I'm tall, so I'm actually too thin to me--but for modeling, I'm ok. I get work. This industry is twisted, I'm not going to try to disappear because some designer thinks I should be thinner--he can hire someone else."

Two designers REALLY pissed me off. One male, one female. Both were probably 'plus sized' yet they were making clothes for tall women shaped like teen boys. :crazy: That makes no sense to me. Why not design for yourself and others like you?

The male designer was lamenting the days that models graced all the covers instead of celebrities. He's since had that staple surgery and has lost a lot of weight. Apparently he was "inspired" by all the "beautiful, thin models he works with" (yeah--his words). :eyes:

[bliss_eternal]

2. C-sections were on the rise...

...with this sort of crap. I wish I could recall where I was reading this (article, online, etc.). A few years ago there was a "demand" (if you can believe that) for c-sections from regular women.

It was apparently fueled by the reports that celebrity moms have c-sections scheduled, either to prevent stretch marks or so they could get the tummy tuck after(can't recall which was the reason cited, or if it was both). :eyes:

The aspect of that that truly pisses me off (and makes me sad for women) is that they truly don't seem to get the whole "airbrushing" thing. It isn't just magazine photos that get airbrushed and corrected. They ALL have flaws.

Also the celebrity mom literally gives birth and starts working out non-stop. I've seen some of their workout regimes--they are serious. No way could a woman without a personal trainer, home full of equipment, nannies and time at their disposal to workout several hours a day could emulate that. Telling people a c-section will give them what a celebrity mother has is dishonest.

[Ellen Forradalom]

5. Celebrity moms

have to work out like mad; looking good (for some definition of "good") is their profession. Just look where their professional prospects go if they gain so much as five pounds. Courtney Love, Jennifer Aniston and Alicia Silverstone can all tell you what a good career move dropping a few pounds was. Sad.

On edit: Qualified "good."

[bliss_eternal]

8. Courtney Thorne Smith

shared her workout schedule during her Ally McBeal days (which she now openly admits was sick)--hours and hours daily, eating next to nothing. My point being, she hadn't even given birth. Imagine how much women who've given birth will do.

How many have been pregnant one awards season and appear at the next awards season looking like they did prior to being pregnant. The commentators going on ad nauseum about how "fantastic" they look. :eyes: I'm so glad I stopped watching those things.

I think I read Kate Hudson worked out no less than 2-4 hours a day after giving birth.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

7. I used to work out 2 hours a day. Every day.

Sometimes I'd leave the gym feeling like crying because I still didn't look like the women I emulated. Not just the ones in magazines and on TV, because I always knew that was fakery. I live in an area with a lot of affluence. Every day I see trophy wives and trophies-in-training parading about. I'm embarrassed to admit but I honestly tried to look like them. Ridiculous, since like the celebrities, these are women with a lot of time, money, and resources at their disposal to get that "look". Nowadays, you couldn't pay me to be like that.

[bliss_eternal]

10. I'm glad...

...you realized you didn't need to do that. :hug:

I'm in a "looks conscious area" too. I've lost count of all the mini-plastic surgical sites that have popped up in the last few years. :eyes: Oh and the "laser hair removal" places.

I complimented a woman I used to see at the gym ALL THE time. It seemed whenever I went (sporadically) she was there, running on the treadmill (after a cardio class). She was SO tiny, and I was surprised to see she had a little one (picking her up at gym's child care site). I complimented her on being so fit and committed. She thanked me, but looked so sad and said,"...I'm ALWAYS here. I practically live here. I come here at least two times a day."

[mrreowwr_kittty]

11. Thank you bliss!

And that story about the woman at your gym is just sad. At mine, there was a woman who was so painfully thin, spending hours on the cardio machines. I was told the gym manager forced to intervene. I cut way back on my gym time when I realized it was interfering with my life and relationships. It has a way of turning into a second job.

[bliss_eternal]

15. I just wonder...

...how many women (and even some men) are there because they want to be? Because they enjoy working out, want to control a health issue, etc. How many are there because they are afraid someone will go away unless they "look a certain way."

[Ellen Forradalom]

13. I work out quite a lot these days

but with the goals of managing my bipolar disorder and becoming strong and fit so I can enjoy sports. I always have to chase away those demon thoughts that demand I look "good," but I don't let it run my life.

[bliss_eternal]

16. Sounds healthy.

...good for you. :thumbsup: I know others that have worked up to working out a lot--but for similar reasons, It balances out other health issues. They seem to really enjoy it and the benefits--like sleeping better, improved concentration and in some cases the ability to taper down some of their medications. I hope it's been helpful for you!

As long as one tries to maintain a sense of balance I don't see any problems with that. Trying to balance the inner by working out, is different from merely working on your outer--so to speak. ;)

I don't think every case of someone that works out a lot is indicative of "exercise anorexia" so to speak. There are some who just can't be still and need to move more than others. Some sincerely enjoy being active and consequently end up being physical many times a day--they've even made it their careers.

[Ellen Forradalom]

17. I'm a looks-conscious area myself

Affluent suburban LA, ground zero for this sort of insanity. I am not the least bit surprised that Dr. Stoker practices in Marina del Rey.

[bliss_eternal]

18. Marina Del Rey

is also "divorce" central, I've heard. Lots of "starter wives" and "first wives club" members from Marina Del Rey. :(

It's like the older the guy is, the younger his wife needs to be. If she hits 30-35, he'll start shopping for a new model, around 20-22. A starlet wannabe, model or even a centerfold.

Though apparently now the younger dudes are eager for the older well off or established women (cougars) to take care of them--so I suppose it all balances out. :eyes:

[Ellen Forradalom]

19. Calabasas

has a similar distinction. Malibu divorcees move over the hills.

Thank goodness we don't run in those circles.

[lizerdbits]

20. I exercise for similar reasons

I was on antidepressants (which as I noted in another thread helped me leave an abusive relationship) but the apparent side effects seemed to be cumulative over the years so I was weaned off them. As long as I'm active and eating well I don't have problems although they were really necessary at the time.

I used to exercise more because supposedly if I just tried harder my PCOS symptoms would magically vanish with weight loss. Well 2 hrs a day only lost me time so I'm more moderate with it now. I think the good thing about it not working is I realized I could be doing more important and rewarding things with my time. :)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

23. Exactly. I no longer view exercise as something I "have" to do

I look forward to it. :)

[WildClarySage]

21. That same c-section cuts right through the abdominal muscles

so getting that flat tummy back (heh) is twice as hard. Telling women otherwise is more than dishonest. Its exploitative and manipulative. Docs wanna do c-sec's to avoid lawsuits and to avoid evening/middle of the night deliveries. There are lots of conditions that necessitate c-sections, but overall, those conditions account for a small percentage of c-sections done. Its so much more difficult to recover from a c-section, but many doctors don't think about that part of it, and sometimes docs will exaggerate the benefits and minimize the risks.

[bliss_eternal]

24. Preaching to the choir, sister.

:applause: (Great post!)
I've been pro-vaginal birth since I was a kid and learned some of what you shared here, about c-sections. It was around the same time I learned about doctors and the alarming rise in "unnecessary hysterectomies." :eyes:

I was in this forum one day going off about a friend's devastating c-section experience, (pm me if you want more details). Only to be "dismissed" and rebuffed by a member about the whole thing. It really cheesed me off. My friend said if that had been her only birth experience she NEVER would have given birth again. :( It was quite traumatic for her.

I had a kick ass medical anthropology class in college taught by a male feminist. (How cool is that?)
We had lengthy discussions about c-sections. He'd done a study about women's reproductive health care and how birth was taken away from women by the male medical industry. He would get so angry discussing his findings--on how frequently doctors coerced their female patients into c's and he found EXACTLY what you said--many tried to avoid night time deliveries (among other reasons). It was awesome--I loved that class!

[Ellen Forradalom]

25. I went with midwives for my birth

Had an entirely natural, though hospital, birth. It was a totally positive experience. I can't rave enough about my midwives. I think they are saints.

Before I found them I had a couple of visits with a traditional OB practice. When I learned they believed in 'managed delivery,' I walked out and didn't look back.

[bliss_eternal]

26. Midwives are amazing...

particularly considering how difficult the medical establishment has made it for them to practice (independently, with medicine or at all). Good for you, walking out of the managed care system for your birth.

There's some "insane" legislation going on with it here in CA. A few Lay midwives (that were also NP's) were shut down. I'm still doing the research trying to pin down exactly what the issues are. But so far, what I'm finding is kind of scary. :scared:

Edited for clarity.

[Ellen Forradalom]

27. Hey, fill me in on the CA legislation via PM

I wanna know.

[bliss_eternal]

28. Sure.

You've got mail. :hi: I apologize for the length, I included links to a few different articles/profiles that give a sense of what's going on with CA midwifery.

[BlueIris]

33. OBs also get paid quite a bit more for C-sections. nt

[Katherine Brengle]

9. Our fucking bodies are designed to go through the "trauma" of childbirth and breastfeeding -

what they are not designed to do is LOOK THE FUCKING SAME AFTERWARDS.

I'm so sick of this shit, I can't even tell you.

[Ellen Forradalom]

14. Pathologizing reproduction is the hallmark of misogyny

We have babies, we are designed to have babies and we do it quite well, thank you Dr. Prick. It can be a grueling test of endurance, true. But so's a marathon or the bar exam for pity's sake.

[Katherine Brengle]

22. Well said. This is no more an illness than breathing.

I'm all for keeping an eye on pregnant women's health and using modern medicine to make it easier and less dangerous, but it's not a frigging disease.

[raccoon]

29. No, and neither is menopause a disease, although the medical community

(probably big pharma mostly) would have you believe it is.

[Katherine Brengle]

30. That one drives me nuts too --

when I get there, any doctor (or anyone else frankly) who tries to treat me like a sick person is going to get a boot in the ass.

[Ellen Forradalom]

31. Just tell him

"They're not hot flashes, they're power surges."

[WildClarySage]

35. LOVE IT!!!

I get 'em after having been on fertility meds. Not fun, but calling them 'power surges' gives them such a positive spin!

[Ellen Forradalom]

36. So, you been there, you done that, now get the t-shirt

http://www.cafepress.com/hotflasheswest.24791761

[bliss_eternal]

32. Definitely big pharma...

...and those that support it. They were making a fortune off of premarin, which was contributing to giving women cancer. So sick, so wrong.

It's one of the reasons they've tried to dismantle compounded medicine--which is natural, and based on what your body makes itself. Natural meds can't be patented, so they can't make any money from it. They'd rather see women that it's actually helped suffer than to allow something to exist that helps them. :(