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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 07:30 PM
Original message
I really hate coming here to complain
But what the fuckety fuck? Why, why WHY (And I know this is old ground, and Thomcat's thread has already covered it) Can I have perfectly normal, insightful give and take conversations in real life (With my sexist father, my Libertarian brother and my misogynist co-worker as well as jus' folks) about women's issues, including everything from fashions and tv shows, motherhood, childhood, marriage all the way to pornography, global exploitation, rape as a war crime etc.

But here, it's like some big collective monster lives here with a Giant thumb ready to squash any opinions that ALL MIGHT NOT BE WELL WITH THE WAY WOMEN ARE TREATED. What? I'm not getting it at all. Explain. Somebody explain. I see the 'usual' suspects, the ones that jump in every porn thread every thread, and I've read enough to dismiss many of them as People With Problems. (They're the same ones I think many here have on ignore, I don't use that feature, I just ignore 'em)But then there is the "Me too" brigade, who jump on in repeating tired old lines and tired old opinions, as though they can't, or aren't forming any of their own. Fuck.

I don't start threads outside of a couple of places. I'm usually in and out and have a crazy schedule so I can't devote any follow up time, so I admire you all who are out there fighting the good fight.

But Bleeding Mary What is WRONG with these people? And it's not about a difference of opinion, it's a lack of knowledge of historical content, no sense of history, of struggle, of the day to day life of women over centuries. No sense of the fight or sacrifices over many years. "They" apparently think that since it's "OK" for women to screw for pleasure now, (Not that we still don't get called slut, skanks and whores if we do) WE HAVE ARRIVED!

I don't want to take away the gains feminism has made. Because god knows some are out there doing it for me. For example, "Pornography leads to less sex crimes", I could puke. Not one thought about the work feminists have put into getting rape and sex crimes acknowledged in the courts, encouraging women to report those crimes, advocating for victims, raising public awareness, educating young women and men. Educating police and judges and school teachers and ministers. Screaming to the rooftops ENOUGH! And it still hasn't been enough. Nope. Fucking PORNOGRAPHY gets the the credit.

Women today have many more choices. (Even though the assault on the most basic one, the human right of reproductive choice is alive and well) We can thank feminism for that as well. Even the disingenuous "sex positive" (Ugh) feminist can thank warriors like Andrea Dworkin.
But when one of those choices that looms very large is sex work, what the fuck has changed there? What? Not a motherfucking thing that's what. Except women can pretend to "choose" to be exploited, and tsk tsk the feminist who tries to point out that sex work isn't exactly "empowerment". It's what we used to do when there wasn't ANY OTHER FUCKING CHOICE. Follow right down the track history has laid out for you and think it's your idea.

I'd put the rant smilie here but I'm too tired.



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efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. What can I say but sadly that you are right. A site that should be
supportive of all inequities is blind to women's issues. The gob (good old boy) network works with great glory here, with the occasional little tidbits thrown our way so the "liberal" males can feel a little bit better about their role in all of this. The truth is that the inbred bias and fear of women is prevalent throughout all spectra of male society.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-22-07 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. As Shirley Chisolm said:
'Men are men.' And given this horrid backlash we are in, they are encouraged to be assholes to women. Most are willfully ignorant. They don't want to expand their consciousness. Maybe someday they'll end up with daughters who hate them.

It's a damn shame that there aren't jobs that pay as much to women who keep their clothes on as the jobs that require them to take their clothes off.

Don't let the boys with one syllable vocabularies bug you.
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. I miss Shirley.
Thank you for sharing her profound words here. :thumbsup:
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 02:07 AM
Response to Original message
3. No shit. It never ceases to amaze me
How misogynistic asswipes want accolades for being "pro-choice", when all it means is that they want steady supply of exploitable sex objects, minus any responsibility for the origins or outcomes. There was yet another thread about porn today, where these valiant defenders of Free Speech(TM) pontificated about the need to protect their beloved entertainment from eeeevil censorship!!. But I still didn't see any of them volunteering to assume the position of the women whose "choices" they so ardently defend.

Further proof that they are the chickenhawks of the Patriarchy.
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 05:46 AM
Response to Original message
4. I don't even bother
Arguing anymore. DU is am anti-women cesspool. Between the porn thread and the unauthorized worker thread, I'm quite depressed. But when you express your opinion that porn is hurtful to women as a class, all you get is bullshit like "you must be frigid or ugly!" They act like two year olds who think someone's trying to steal their binky. Feh... hands washed!

I've found something that works well in person though... very few men will admit to using porn in normal everyday conversation but when they do, I'm ready. All I try to do is humanize the women they are objectifying.

Easy question... would you advise your daughter that a career in hardcore porn is an attractive career to be actively sought after? Afterall, it is her body and hell, she can be famous and make lots of money! If there is no daughter, well how about the wife? She can get a part time job in porn to help pay the household expenses.

They argue porn is safe, healthy and liberating for the actresses. So, buddy, then it is a good career choice for your daughter, wife, sister or mother?

Men seriously don't believe they objectify women. They're lying to themselves.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 07:54 AM
Response to Original message
5. Now, in the NEW thread, the phrase "pro-choice" is being used for people who like porn
That makes me very angry. That phrase has a political definition and it's incredibly disingenuous to use it for porn.
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. You aren't the only one...
Edited on Sat Aug-25-07 08:25 PM by bliss_eternal
...it's moronic, offensive and shows blatant misunderstanding and disrespect for women's struggle for reproductive choice. As one that worked my ass off in an effort to to help create a pro-choice group on DU, I find it beyond insulting.

But given who I saw saying it, I'll keep that in mind, too. :eyes:
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-23-07 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
6. That comparison is so deeply offensive, I don't even know what to say.
And I especially love all of the concerned entreaties to move on to more important topics of conversation than the exploitation and degradation of women in the patriarchy.

We really should just shut up and wait for those tasty crumbs.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. you may have seen my account of my real-life version of it

Actually, it was in the gun dungeon, so probably not:

Reminds me of the time years ago when an old Trot friend of mine and I and two other friends watched the video of Nadine Gordimer's short story about a white South African writer who has a relationship with the woman of colour who does his housework. Eventually, the police are informed, they raid his home, they take them both in, they box up all his stuff and cart it off ... and the final scene is the young woman, naked on a stainless steel examining table, as the man in the white coat bears down on her with the speculum to do an internal examination in search of evidence of their illicit relationship. And we sit there in silence for a minute as the credits roll ... and finally my old Trot friend speaks up in a worried and disbelieving voice, and says:

What an invasion.

Can you imagine.

Going through his files like that.


In a nutshell.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
7. stupidity
Really, seriously, stupidity. I forget who said it, but: always remember that half the population has an IQ under 100. And if that isn't enough to send you into the depths of depression for the rest of the day ...

I know that when someone asks me a piggish loaded question based on the premise that I said something I did not say, there is probably a 50-50 chance that s/he really, really believes I did say it.

Now, of course, that person probably also had a 50-50 chance of understanding what I actually said, since it was right there on the monitor in front of him/her. So why would any such person choose to believe that I said something as utterly stupid or evil as what s/he has decided I said, instead?

Well, there's your other explanation. Evil. If half the population has an IQ under 100, an overlapping half is probably also just plain rotten. I mean, how else can one explain things like George W. Bush being President of the US?

The problem with stupid people is that they really don't know they're stupid most of the time. Remember "Unskilled and Unaware of It"? They just can't get it, and they don't get that they can't get it.

But they gots their opinions. They grew up in the land o' Jerry Springer, where the most important thing in human life is to have an opinion - and to proclaim it, loudly and constantly. People who have loud, strongly held opinions are admired, no matter what the opinions might be. Opinions about other people are particularly admirable.

Couple this with the whole US history of one form or another of prosperity theology -- anyone can become president, Horatio Alger, god rewards the good so if you are rich you are a priori good and if you are poor you are bad. This makes it impossible, for instance, to recognize the reality of exploitation. To do so involves recognizing that anyone, even one's self, is weaker than someone else, and really does not have access to the same opportunities as some others have. And that not everyone is to blame for what happens to them -- leaving one without a bunch of people to feel superior to, even if one is a total failure one's self. Because that's the problem with prosperity theology; if one is poor and vulnerable, one has to regard one's self as bad and a failure. The only salvation is having people who are worse than one's self to look down on. One can even tell one's self that one had some back luck, but those other losers, they're the authors of their own misfortune.

Where is there a weak link in this godawful chain?? How can people be persuaded to identify with the exploited and vulnerable? when it means admitting that they are themselves, in some way, exploited and vulnerable. When they are so stupid that they can be manipulated by anyone with a soapbox, and so self-centred that any appeal to their image of themselves as righteous will suck them in.

And that brings me to another thing -- the whole view of "rights" in the US. Rights are things that I have, and that other people want to claim in order to take away what I have. There is simply no understanding of rights as things that WE ALL HAVE, and that other people may need or want the protection afforded by different rights in different ways from what I need or want.

And because the dominant class is white and male, the dominant right in the discourse is generally "free speech". White men are simply not vulnerable to the same kind of exploitation as women and people of colour; or as children. The only right of theirs that they're able to characterize as under attack most of the time is free speech. There will always be something they can characterize as such an attack, because there will always be some limits on speech, in some public interest or other. And they'll raise a hue and cry about every one, because otherwise somebody might get something that they don't get, even though they've got more of everything already.

Their security is not in jeopardy most of their lives -- or at least, if they are poor, say, they have been persuaded, if their security is in jeopardy, for instance at all those crappy jobs we're always hearing about, that it is nonetheless in their interests to identify their interests with those of the superior class. Otherwise, they'd just have to think of themselves as downtrodden, and that would make their heads explode. They'd have to identify with all the rest of us losers they've spent their lives looking down on.

Any discussion about any public policy that matters to people like us -- health care, pornography, prostitution, equal opportunity -- has to start from the fundamental understanding that there are people who are in need of assistance through no fault of their own and a fundamental agreement that as human beings we have a responsibility to those people, and that part of our responsibility is to put our own interests second to the interests of others in some situations. Apart from those arbitrary fundamental principles, it also helps to understand that it is in the interests of everyone, collectively, to meet the basic needs of people who can't meet their own.

Any argument should stem from consensus on those things, and then be about the questions of when any individual's or group's interests should be put second to a public interest or another individual's or group's interests.

No discussion of that nature can ever occur with people who simply assert that their own interests are identical to the public interest in all cases, that no one else has any legitimate competing interest, and that in any event their own interests are superior to any competing interest.

Exploitation lies on the line between ability to meet one's own needs and inability to meet one's own needs. The idea that action should be taken to prevent people from hurting themselves doesn't jibe well with the idea that people should not be prevented from exercising choice in everything.

The other aspect of the pornography/prostitution issue, for example, is the idea that choices freely made by people who are not vulnerable to exploitation (which is of course possible only in a utopia we don't live in) may still have an impact on a public interest such that the public is entitled to limit the exercise of that choice. In this case, we run into flat, simple denial. Huge numbers of people using narcotics is not something the public has any interest in; widespread alcoholism is not something the public has any interest in; the objectification of women in every element of the media is not something the public has any interest in; handguns in every household is not something the public has any interest in.

It's really the same thing, of course: everyone is to blame for what s/he individually does, and hot damn, blaming someone for something just gives 'em all the warm fuzzies. As someone just said in the internet misogyny thread, anyone attacking anyone else's website or sending death threats for any reason should be held accountable. Point that finger, lock that cell door, go home and have dinner and feel real good about punishing the guilty, and all morally superior to the bad guys. Never mind the fucking victim, and all past and present and future victims. Never mind trying to prevent the harm that has been and is being and will be done. Blame somebody for it when it happens, and wash your hands of it all. Because actually trying to stop it from happening might mean that you have to give up some tiny thing you want.

What Benjamin Franklin actually said (there being different versions, but the gist being the same) was:

Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.


Their liberties are ALL essential, you see; and our safety is of no consequence to them.


And I'm done.





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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Great post...!
:applause:
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