Befriending Conservative Christians. (rant/reflection)

[AspenRose]

I have a wonderful Christian friend who will do anything for you; yet she is a bushbot. I know it would be easy to say "just drop her" or "let the friendship go," which may be the typical DU response; but as Christians, we are held to a higher standard and Authority. Thus, I am left confused about my feelings. Let me try to explain....and please humor me.

We met at a retreat and have been friends about 7 years, even though we've never lived in the same town. Three years into our friendship she married a solidly Christian guy, though he strikes me as being too spiritual to be of any earthly good, if you know the type. They are both in the military so they've moved around quite a bit, but we kept in touch despite that. Our children were born days apart.

These folks have opened their home and heart to anyone who needed lodging, including me and my family. I was a recipient of their hospitality recently. But in the course of my stay I heard and saw things that I have MAJOR problems with:
Letting children "cry it out."
Not "coddling" children (our kids aren't even a year and a half old yet!).
Spanking. (the "they've got to learn" argument)
They adhere to the Ted Tripp philosophy of child rearing...
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/article.php?thold=-1&mode=nested&order=0&sid=26445
http://ethicalstl.org/blogs/?p=29

As a guest in their home I have to honor their choices, but I wasn't going to allow them opportunities to discipline MY child. The husband tried a couple of times, giving him dirty looks to frighten him into obedience and submission. All he was doing was playing with his feet and the table while eating dinner.

There were conversations about how "liberal" and "unbiblical" mainstream churches are today (they attend a Vineyard congregation). A random comment about ANYONE or ANYTHING was followed by questions like "are they saved" or "are they TRUE believers?" Mandatory family Bible reading took place after meals at the table--not any particular study, just reading through. That's not necessarily a bad thing; in my home, however, it's private and individual, not something we do with houseguests (unless they want to, of course).

A conversation about good movies to rent that are long: I suggested Lawrence of Arabia. "That doesn't have homosexuality in it, does it?" asked the husband.

One brief comment about Bill Clinton was met with derision and eyes rolling, while another brief comment about * was praised. The most disturbing and uncomfortable thing, however, was a DVD they had in their library:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/reviews/georgewbush.html
http://www.christiananswers.net/spotlight/movies/2005/georgewbushfaithinthewhitehouse2004
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/20/1423216

In case you missed it the first time I mentioned it: These folks are in the armed forces. How in the world could they be so ignorant? I thought we (as Christians) were supposed to judge the fruit someone produces. How is it they cannot take a critical look at the fruit our president has produced and not SEE that this is wrong? (They DID attend the AFA in Colorado, so maybe I've answered my own question.)

It's bad enough that I wrangle with my republican husband about some of these things. Fellowship is an integral part in the life of the believer. And I feel like I've nowhere to go.

Something else that didn't sit well with me were the choices they made regarding how their kid is socialized. All of the toys are almost exclusively gender geared - cars, trucks, foottball, etc. I thought about the toys in my house for my kid and they are all developmental and gender neutral (Baby Einstein). Again, they have every right to raise their kid how they see fit. I just wonder how the discord between our parenting styles and philosophy will play out. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if they took Dobson's advice about the son showering with the dad so the kid "won't turn gay." I wasn't planning to getting Tonka trucks and racing cars for my kid until he was older, but now I wonder if I am an inadequate Christian parent because:
*his toys are gender neutral *because I'm still selectively nursing him *because we occasionallly co-sleep
*because I don't think it's appropriate to spank a one-year-old *because I don't buy "sporty" clothes for him (I like preppy)
*because I don't encourage him to climb on things *because I haven't taken him on short mission trips out of the country
*because we don't put him in the nursery at church (that's another story for another time)

I need some Christian, left-leaning, gentle parenting friends. I will keep this friend because I love her in the Lord. But I am very uncomfortable around her bushbot lifestyle. My new friends from La Leche League are great to socialize with, as are their children, but they are not Christians (and I respect that and respect them).

What to do.....what to do.....:dilemma:

[Rabrrrrrr]

1. They sound like a nightmare couple

Both becuase of their rampant republicanism and sad fundamentalist ways, but also a nightmare because they're nice, fun to be with, and are willing to do anything to help someone out, so that one can't easily dismiss them. I know people like that, too, and they drive me crazy - "I want to hate you, but you are also standing on the nice-guy side of the fence! ARGH!!!"

And they've already taken their kids on mission trips? That's pretty cool. Though I wonder if it was mission to help build, or mission to go spread pamphlets and evangelize.

I'm not like some DUers who would say that to remain true to being a democrat and/or liberal that you are not allowed to have any conservative friends - I have some, though I don't have any of the over-fundy type of friends you have.

I guess the question is "Does the goodness of being together outweight the pain of being together?"

And I think you are doing a bang up job of parenting. The Dobson method, and most conservative Christian methods, are really just nostalgic "old-style American punitive" re-wrapped in Christian swaddling, with no real basis in Scripture, psychology, or any sensible rubric. The Dobson et. al. movements are firmly and totally rooted in a made-up nostalgic vision of a 1950s America that never existed; and they pretend that their made-up remembrance of the perfection of post-WWII American society is perfectly Christian. Sadly, all it is is fucked up and hurtful.

[AspenRose]

2. Thank you (re: parenting)

I have to tell you it just pained me to see them allow their son to cry for what seemed like an eternity on several occasions, just because they didn't want to pick him up and reassure him. My poor kid didn't know what to do. He (my kid) even tried to comfort him. They'd just dismiss him: "You're ok. You're going to be fine." Of course I'd pick him up but it wasn't the same; the kid wanted his mom. Ironically they'd marvel at how I could leave the room without my kid screaming or freaking out. Wonder if they'll eventually connect the dots.

I think you crystallized the main question very well: Pain outweighing the joy of fellowship. I'm still weighing it out.

I am even more infuriated at the attempts by the right to take over Christianity. I doubt we'd be dealing with these kinds of situations were it not for that. These folks haven't been Christians all that long...less than 10 years. So they have been caught up in this vortex of right wing propaganda mixed in with the worship and fellowship.

[shimmergal]

3. On letting kids cry. . .

I thlink that's all tied up with the righties' weird ideas about impulse control. Most parents' first impulse with a crying child is to pick him/her up and offer comfort. By fighting that, these parents are probably showing they don't trust their own instincts about parenting. How sad.

And I too think you're doing a bang-up job. From this grandmother's perspective though I don't believe it's worth worrying much about gender-stereotyped (or otherwise) toys; the kids will make their own choices soon and having a ssexist outlook isn't caused by playing with traditional--or other--kinds of toys.

Me too on the worrying about the Right Wing trying to take over Christianity.
What a downer!

[nosillies]

4. The "healthy" thing to do would be the hardest thing to do

It would be very sensible to say "You guys are very kind and supportive friends; however, I feel as if we need to change our relationship somewhat. While I respect your feelings, I do not at all agree with some of your parenting decisions. Therefore, I only want us to spend child-free time together. I simply can no longer view and accept the way you discipline your children, and I do not want my children to be treated that way, either. Can we have an adult relationship only?"

Now, do most of us have the guts to say something like that? Shoot, no. And would saying something like that most likely backfire and cause a huge rift? Heck, yeah. However, it's the only way I can truly see for you to honor your own beliefs and respect your children, while still being respectful and honest with your friends.

[OnionPatch]

5. What if you were to

have a *civilized* conversation with them where you acknowledge each other's differences and agree to be mutually respectful of them. If you can't do this, maybe there is no hope for this friendship. If they are purposefully expressing distain for your beliefs in your presence, that's disrespectful, and they must stop if they want to remain friends with you. Similarly, if you can't bear to witness the way they raise their kids, you are going to have to distance yourself somehow from those situations or sever the ties totally. Alternatively, if both of you could agree to remain friends but mind each other's own business when it comes to these differences, especially child-rearing, you might be able to do this. I would probably limit my social activities with them to instances where conflictions aren't going to be so numerous. IE: Go to a picnic with them or a church event? Yes. Stay the weekend with them in their home, including Sunday, the holy day (where these conflictions are likely to be pronounced?) No.

I have a lovely friend at work who is the sweetest person in the world, but sadly, she has fallen for the right-wing-Christian spin in many (but thankfully, not all) aspects. We have lunch, talk in our offices and occasionally attend a public event together. (Fair, fireworks, farmer's market...) but we know the areas in which we have similarities and those in which we don't and we literally, don't go there. It's a sort of unspoken pact. Sometimes, we will gingerly approach a subject of conflict and talk respectfully of our difference of view, but always take care that our friendship doesn't suffer from it and no disrespect is shown to the other. I guess respect is the key. Not every friend you have is going to be the same as you in every way and those who insist on that usually end up not having very many. :)

[StoryTeller]

6. I've been in a similar position...

And for the record, I attend a Vineyard church as well, and I think your friend would find herself in the definite minority there. Most of us are refugees from the conservative churches in town, and are at least moderate and open minded, if not a bit liberal (and still open-minded.) :)

I had a very good friend whose children were good friends with my children, but I had to eventually put some space between us just because I didn't like the messages my kids were absorbing from them. A lot of it was the obsessiveness with gender roles, and my husband and I have worked hard to teach our daughters (and model for them) what equality and mutual respect and partnership look like. I couldn't afford to have it undone by our friends.

But it is difficult. I'm not one to insist on only being friends with people who think like me, but when it comes to the home atmosphere and the effect it has on my children, I feel like my top priority is to make sure they are spending time with people that will not have a harmful effect on their development. (They're only 8 and 5.)

And you're right--it's hard to find the right combination of faith and lifestyle. At least it is around here. With our church, it's a little easier, but sometimes I still feel really isolated.

So my heart goes out to you.

On the other hand, our conservative friends have afforded us the opportunity to have some serious conversations with our oldest daughter especially about how our beliefs are different and why we disagree with our friends. I'm hoping we can teach her that you can still love and respect a friend even when you disagree with them, and that you don't have to give up or change your beliefs. But that at some point you may find that you don't have enough in common anymore to justify the friendship. It's a tough lesson to learn, but I don't see any way around it.