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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 07:08 PM
Original message
OK, some issues!
Edited on Sat Jun-10-06 07:57 PM by ProSense
The Libertarian Dem
by kos
Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 10:15:50 AM PDT

It's no secret that I look to the Mountain West for the future of the Democratic Party, people like Brian Schweitzer and Jon Tester. But I also look to candidates like Jim Webb in Virginia and Paul Hackett in Ohio.

And what is the common thread amongst these candidates?

They are all Libertarian Democrats.

Ack, the "L" word! But hear me out.

Traditional "libertarianism" holds that government is evil and thus must be minimized. Any and all government intrusion is bad. While practical libertarians (as opposed to those who waste their votes on the Libertarian Party) have traditionally aligned themselves with the Republicans, it's clear that the modern GOP has no qualms about trampling on personal liberties. Heck, it's become their raison d' etre.

Snip...

A Libertarian Dem believes that true liberty requires freedom of movement -- we need roads and public transportation to give people freedom to travel wherever they might want. A Libertarian Dem believes that we should have the freedom to enjoy the outdoor without getting poisoned; that corporate polluters infringe on our rights and should be checked. A Libertarian Dem believes that people should have the freedom to make a living without being unduly exploited by employers. A Libertarian Dem understands that no one enjoys true liberty if they constantly fear for their lives, so strong crime and poverty prevention programs can create a safe environment for the pursuit of happiness. A Libertarian Dem gets that no one is truly free if they fear for their health, so social net programs are important to allow individuals to continue to live happily into their old age. Same with health care. And so on.

more...

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/6/7/131550/7297



Edit: Took out GD link!
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Wow!
This should now be call the Angling Democratic Party!

Markos and Warner are Getting a Little Cozy
by BooMan23
Sat Jun 10, 2006 at 04:55:16 PM PDT

Snip...

But there can be no avoiding a controversy about the close relationship that is developing between Warner and Daily Kos. Warner was not only granted the keynote speech; prior to the speech he was allowed to pass out free Yearly Kos t-shirts with his face (not Markos's or Wesley Clark's, or FDR's, or Russ Feingold's, or Hillary Clinton's, or Armando's) superimposed on the front. And on the back, it says 'Forward Together' and 'Authorized and Paid for by Forward Together PAC.' That is Mark Warner's presidential political action committee. Then we were all subjected to a Kennedyesque five-minute canned campaign infomercial. Then Warner gave a well presented and well received speech, emphasizing a Dukakis-like technocratic competency that was striking (if one hadn't been expecting it) for its lack of ideology.

Snip...

For some, the problem is a simple matter of how Warner is choosing to spend his money. But for others, the problem is that Mark Warner is a centrist candidate that has strong connections to the Democratic Leadership Council. And it is jarring to see Markos go from declaring war on the DLC to coming within inches of endorsing a DLC candidate for President over two years out from the election.

Let's be clear about one thing. Markos did not endorse Warner. He was explicit about that. But he has given Warner a major platform to try to win over the Kossack community and to raise his profile from a little known Governor, to someone that might give (another DLC candidate) Hillary Clinton a run for her money.

And the question then becomes, "is this what Daily Kos wants? Has Daily Kos come to a point where they are going to cozy up to the Democratic Leadership Council?' Why are we so opposed to Hillary Clinton and Joe Lieberman, if not because they supported the war and do not advocate leaving Iraq? How is Mark Warner any different in this regard?"

I've sat down with Governor Warner and discussed Iraq with him. I like Governor Warner and I know that he is torn over what to do in Iraq. I appreciate, really appreciate, his attitude towards the netroots, toward the progressive community, and toward me personally. I think he is a good man, and I think he should be taken seriously as a candidate. Not all DLC members are the same. There is a big difference between Lieberman, Bayh, and Hillary on the one hand and Warner, Richardson, and Vilsack on the other. Gore is a DLC candidate cut from another mold.

The way the Presidential race is shaping up, it looks like John Edwards and Russ Feingold are going to be the only non-DLC candidates with a prayer of winning. So, looking at Mark Warner makes some sense. At least he is listening, being respectful, and has shown us good-will. Hillary is busy in New York City this weekend.

So, I'm not bashing Mark Warner. I'm not questioning Markos's gratefulness to Warner, or his decision to give Warner the keynote spot. But, I don't think the Kossack community is ready to give up the fight for a more progressive candidate and more progressive politics a full two years before the election. And we are going to see a battle royale between those that think Russ Feingold or John Edwards are the proper candidates to carry the orange banner and those that are won over by coconut shrimp, and free kosmopolitans and t-shirts.


http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/6/10/195516/992



Edwards and Feingold?

Wow!
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Now that this issue has been raised, it's important to point out
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Oops, just read this thread now. I put that Warner link on the Kos
Convention thread, too. I commented and talked about how only Feingold is more liberal than Kerry, and that Kerry actually gives a damn about the issues most important to people in the Kos community.

Yes, Markos is a centrist, at least as far as economics go (he is a social liberal and probably a realist in foreign policy). That's fine, and really, Kerry is mostly progressive in the area where Kos is and that's universal health coverage. I liked Kos's piece but feel it needs fleshing out at the same time he tightens up what a "Lib Dem" is at the core. He lost me at times. I'll be honest, Prosense, I've seen Europe and their more socialist policies and I don't care for it. I just am interested in the safety nets that will benefit ALL Americans, but don't want a 50% tax rate and Huge Government. We're too far in debt now anyway. So in that sense, I do have that in common with Kos.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I've seen it too, but
who says the Democrats are advocating Socialist policies, health care or otherwise? Kos just describe the Democratic Party and is trying to frame them as too far left. That's is why when he talks about supporting Feingold, I'm agree with whoever said it's a rouse to rope in Kos' Feingold supporters and then spring Warner on them.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. No they dont.
This said, "socialist" policies are not that bad. Western Europe has a safety net that is a lot better than the US. (and frankly, their socialism is not that different from what the progressives in this country want. The word is just used to frighten people to death).

This said, it is interesting to see what kos says. Interesting to see him push Warner (whose position concerning Iraq is not that different from Hillary) and who is as DLC as they come. But the man has said again and again that he is interested by winning. He does not care what people stand for.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. Centrist! Centrist! Centrist!
Everyone's screaming centrist, but the centrist candidates are disguising themselves as progressives, and the progressives don't have a clue who is and isn't a centrist! So progressives are promoting centrist...Sheesh!


DEMOCRATS
FIND YOUR TRUE CENTER (Don't Compromise)


By David Sirota
Sunday, June 11, 2006; Page B04

If Democrats ever want to regain their status as a majority party, they must move to the center. But that means moving to the real center -- one very different from Washington's definition of the term.

Inside the Beltway, Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman (D-Conn.) is called a "centrist" because he still supports President Bush's misguided policies in Iraq; Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. (D-Del.) proved his centrist credentials when he helped gut consumer bankruptcy protections; Sen. Evan Bayh (D-Ind.) is a centrist because he votes for corporate-written, wage-destroying trade deals. And former senator John Breaux (D-La.), now a corporate lobbyist, was labeled the ultimate centrist after working to stop Congress from cracking down on the drug and health industry profiteers who backed his campaigns.

more...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/09/AR2006060902000.html


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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
5. I previously commented on this at Democratic Daily
http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?p=3243

In discussions of Daily Kos it has often been noted that they often stress politics over ideas. For example they love Dean but hate Kerry even though the two are very close on the issues primarily for imaginary differences stemming from their primary battle. In a post yesterday Kos breaks from his typical type of comments to write about being a Libertarian Dem. Here’s a section from his description of the views of a Libertarian Dem:

"Libertarian Dems are not hostile to government like traditional libertarians. But unlike the liberal Democrats of old times (now all but extinct), the Libertarian Dem doesn’t believe government is the solution for everything. But it sure as heck is effective in checking the power of corporations.

"In other words, government can protect our liberties from those who would infringe upon them — corporations and other individuals.

"So in practical terms, what does a Libertarian Dem look like? A Libertarian Dem rejects government efforts to intrude in our bedrooms and churches. A Libertarian Dem rejects government “Big Brother” efforts, such as the NSA spying of tens of millions of Americans. A Libertarian Dem rejects efforts to strip away rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights — from the First Amendment to the 10th. And yes, that includes the 2nd Amendment and the right to bear arms.

"So far, this isn’t much different than what a traditional libertarian believes. Here is where it begins to differ (and it shouldn’t).

"A Libertarian Dem believes that true liberty requires freedom of movement — we need roads and public transportation to give people freedom to travel wherever they might want. A Libertarian Dem believes that we should have the freedom to enjoy the outdoor without getting poisoned; that corporate polluters infringe on our rights and should be checked. A Libertarian Dem believes that people should have the freedom to make a living without being unduly exploited by employers. A Libertarian Dem understands that no one enjoys true liberty if they constantly fear for their lives, so strong crime and poverty prevention programs can create a safe environment for the pursuit of happiness. A Libertarian Dem gets that no one is truly free if they fear for their health, so social net programs are important to allow individuals to continue to live happily into their old age. Same with health care. And so on."

Kos even says this will be the topic of his next book, and I suspect I’ll enjoy his next book more than his previous one. Naturally this has raised a bit of controversy, both from liberals and libertarians. Much of the disagreement is over labels as opposed to ideology, especially as many libertarians have entered into an alliance I have never understood with conservatives. Kos’s description of libertarianism also disagrees with those libertarians who support no government activity. Personally I don’t find arguments over labels to be particularly meaningful. In this case I suspect that Kos’ choice of terminology remains based upon his political instincts as he sees framing himself as a Libertarian Dem as a way to pick up votes in some of the western states.

This is really just part of a trend among Democrats dating back to Bobby Kennedy, and subsequently seen with Democratic leaders from Jimmy Carter to Howard Dean and John Kerry. Similar views have also been expressed frequently at Daily Kos even if not labeled Libertarian, contrary to the right wingers who try to portray them as being on the far left. Economic liberalism has long been dead, with ideas such as support for individual liberty and opposition to unjust wars, from Vietnam to Iraq, increasingly being the factors which separate liberals from conservatives. We’re all capitalists now, but liberals see through the right wing’s rhetoric as being support for corporate welfare, not the free market.

Historically liberalism was identified with liberty, as well as capitalism. Rather than Libertarian Dem being the best term, perhaps what is really occurring is that liberalism is being freed from its identification with big government and is returning to its roots. We may be Liberal Democrats, but that sure doesn’t mean what the right wingers claim in their scare campaigns.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. It's a
crazy term and I think Kos is just spinning and framing to find a way to push Warner as some different type of Democrat.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Going after Western Democrats
I'm not sure off hand if this was included in any of the portions posted in this forum, but from his full post it looked like he thought that this frame would be more attractive to picking up votes in the western states.

Still if he can keep Democrats concerned with civil liberties issues, and if he can help reduce some of the sterotypes of Democrats as socialists who want to control people's lives, then more power to him. We'll have to see where he really goes with this.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. But what about the
South and the Northeast? Honestly, all this framing has me puzzled. Seems people spent the past months since the election spewing loads about Democrats being true to principles, now less than six months before the election Kos wants to promote a new type of Democrat using a crazy term: Libertarian Democrat, not only fashioned for Warner, but Hackett! The last person I want defining the Democratic Party is Paul Hackett.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Picking up Western states to put us over the top
I think his logic is that (assuming the current red vs blue state divide continues basically as is) we need to find a new area to add on. If Democrats could be seen as more libertarian (while Republicans are dragged down by their connection to the religious right) it is possible we could pick up some western states.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I don't like the term, but
the spin is Kos'. Another way to spin it is Matt Stoller's way:


Progressive Messaging Wins: Tester, Angelides, Winograd, and Bilbray?

http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/6/7/101138/8639


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ray of light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. booman HATES kerry.
Edited on Sat Jun-10-06 09:56 PM by ray of light
http://www.boomantribune. com/story/2005/11/21/122035/53

(trying to eliminate the trace back to the jk/du forum )
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
14. Two great comments:
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