WOW!!! JK needs to see this and see what he would do now!

[ray of light]

***This definitely changes the landscape on the issue!


from americablog and John Aravosis:

Iraqi leaders adopt Murtha proposal for withdrawal
by John in DC - 11/22/2005 09:29:00 AM


This is an extremely bizarre and rather earth-shattering story (link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5431131,00.html ).

Basically, Iraq's leaders want us out, and they seem to have just endorsed Congressman Murtha's proposal for a timed withdrawal, a real beefing up of the Iraqi armed forces, and stronger protection at the borders. Even wilder, and something that's not in Murtha's proposal, Iraq's leaders now say it's not terrorism if you attack

Americans. It's only terrorism if you attack Iraqi citizens or Iraqi "institutions."

There's really no other way to read this. They want us out and it's clear that we're not listening. They've likely told the Bush administration privately, and now they're going public. This is incredibly embarrassing for Bush. And it's very troubling for all of us. These guys are pretty much telling us to get out, please.

read the rest of John's post...
http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/11/iraqi-leaders-adopt-murtha-proposal.html

and the part where Sec. Powell said that we would leave when the Iraqi's asked us to leave...

http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/11/powell-and-bremmer-and-joint-chiefs.html

[TayTay]

1. Interesting. I wonder what is really going on

In Jan of this year, John Kerry gave an exclusive one-hour interview with Tim Russert and they talked about withdrawal and Iraq.

I think what Senator Kennedy is saying--and here I do agree with him--is that it is vital for the United States to make it clear that we are not there with long-term goals and intentions of our presence in the region. I agree with Senator Kennedy that we have become the target and part of the problem today, if not the problem. Now, obviously, you've got to provide security and stability in order to be able to turn this over to the Iraqis and to be able to withdraw our troops, so I wouldn't do a specific timetable, but I certainly agree with him in principle that the goal must be to withdraw American troops.

Now, I wouldn't be surprised if the new government, as soon as it's possible, begins to negotiate some modality like that. And I wouldn't be surprised if they even asked us to leave in some way over a period of time. I wouldn't be surprised if the administration privately, behind closed doors, asked them to ask us to leave. I think there are plenty of ways to skin this cat. But the most important thing is that you've got to have stability.

What Iraq is after this is important to the world. It cannot be a haven for terrorism. It cannot be a completely failed state. Now, you'll notice the administration has backed off significantly of its own high goals of full democratization and so forth, and I don't think you're going to hear them pushing that. There are a lot of conservatives, neo-cons and others in Washington debating now sort of what the modality of withdrawal ought to be.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6886726/

Hmmmm, that is one way out for the Admin, to get Iraq to ask us to leave. I wouldn't put it past them.

[karynnj]

3. In the questing of Rice recently, he pointedly talked

about how both Iraqis and the military had said withdrawals of sizes I forget could be done only to change their story after Bush & co spoke to them.

They NYT story is here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/22/international/middleeast/22arab.html?hp&ex=1132722000&en=a8235ec987accd3a&ei=5094&partner=homepage

It sounds like the Sunni neighbors that Kerry was asking be brought in by Bush - are in on their own. A lot of this is a political solution. The logical US reaction to the statement that somewhat redefines terrorist - is to do exactly what Kerry is saying - pull US troops out of S&D and policing and put them in garisons with less contact with people.

It also talks about expedited training as what needs to bedone so we can leave. They said a February meeting is suppose to firm up timetables and milestones, but look what they say the timing is:

"By mid-next year, we will be 75 percent done in building our forces, and by the end of next year it will be fully ready," Mr. Jabr told Al Jazeera, the pan-Arab news channel. "

Who's plan does this most match??

If it were any closer the RW still saying Kerry necogiated with the Vietnamese would claim he negociated with the enemy in Iraq too. (Ignore they were the ones we were "helping" , not the enemy).

[TayTay]

4. See, our guy is wicked smaht

He knows what is going on, he can read the signs. He devised a plan that would actually work in IRaq under the current conditions and with the current people that are there.

Sigh! Wicked, wicked, smaht.

[Mass]

5. And yesterday he asked Bush to jump on the proposition...

Not that * will do that without being forced to do that, but...

[karynnj]

8. You wonder how involved he was

He really hit Rice with almost all the key points here - and she then went off into PNAC based Rhetoric and stmmering about all the evil Saddam did even to trying to explain how he tortured people.

I doubt the Senator had a one way conversation. His constant refrain about needing a political solution and involving the Sunni neighbors is this - that he made contacts with Eqypt and Jordan in January is known. I doubt our press will even think of how this is closer to his plan than to Murtha's, Biden's, Korb's, or the non-plans of the Clintons and Bush.

Bush might be more easily pushed to do it without Senator Kerry's name mentioned. He is wicked smart.

[Mass]

2. They have not adopted Murtha's proposition

They certainly are not calling to have an intervention force above the horizon. They are calling to be free, on their own terms, not the terms of an US representative, senator, general, or ...

But what is important is that they are calling for a timetable for withdrawal and for the reconstruction of the Iraqi army. That means that the Congress should push Bush to work with them to achieve all these goals quickly.

Kerry knows that. He referred to that yesterday in his speech.

http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?page_id=1223

Iraq’s political leaders today called for a timetable for foreign troops to leave Iraq. We should seize this opportunity to force the Iraqis to accept more responsibility for their own country. Iraqis should be policing Iraqi streets, Iraqis should be searching Iraqi homes, and Iraqis should be fighting for Iraq.

[karynnj]

6. sounds way more like Kerry's

This is really good news. It's a political solution. It brought in the Sunni neighbors. From the NYT:

Some of the sides that were especially sensitive have opened up with the support of the Arab League," said Sheik Humam Hamoudi, a Shiite who headed the Iraqi constitution-drafting committee. "We now clearly see that Sunnis have entered politics, and this meeting won't change that."

"If this meeting did anything, it was to comfort the Arabs and the Iraqi Sunnis about the whole process," he added. "The solution first is that Sunnis enter politics, then they enter government, then we deliver services to their areas, and then we build a strong government."

The statement also called for the release of all prisoners who had not been charged or were deemed innocent, and asked Arab League members to cancel Iraq's debts and assist in building Iraqi security forces.

Perhaps the biggest winner of the meeting was the 22-member Arab League itself, which has entered the political scene in Iraq hoping to repeat its success in 1989, when it brokered an end to Lebanon's 15-year civil war in a similar conference. '

Kerry spoke of needing to involve the Sunni neighbors - which every self- important pundit said wouldn't happen.

[Mass]

7. What I mean is that it is theirs. That Kerry and others understood what

was needed is fine, but it is their proposition that they negotiated by themselves, not something imposed by the American government, and this is great news.

I am not noting that for you, but because americablog and others have been saying all along that we are patronizing to the Iraqis and that they can make their own decision, and, not surprisingly, now that they do so, they say they adopted an American plan. That always makes me laugh.

[karynnj]

9. Sorry

I see exactly what you mean and can see you were responding to their claim that it was the Murtha plan - which is actually very different. Nor is it the Kerry plan. Kerry himself was calling for a political solution by them - that's what this is an attempt at. Your point is well taken - my comment was as patronizing as Americablog's.

An analogy would be if I say to my daughter "make a cake" and she does, I didn't make a cake. There also exists a distinct possiblity that she planned to make one even before I spoke up.

[Mass]

11. I think yours was more out of enthusiasm for Kerry than anything else

It is just that John A. drives me crazy sometimes.

[karynnj]

13. Enthusiasm for Kerry, where would you get that idea lol lol

I am really glad you made that point because it is absolutely correct.

The better thing to have said is that Kerry is likely very happy with this happening because he is likely to see it as a very positive step based on his stated exit plan. What will be interesting is whether pressure can be put on Bush by the entire world (as well as Congress) to except this.

[sandnsea]

10. True, but it isn't Murtha's plan either

It calls for putting in Iraqi forces, getting some security, then removing US forces. It isn't Murtha's plan at all. The lack of intellectual honesty really disturbs me. And your point is well taken too.

[Mass]

12. I agree totally.