Ahm, guys, we need to talk.

[TayTay]

DU is not, in any way shape or form, representative of the American electorate. It is not really representative of the rank and file of the Democratic Party, by which I mean, the people who show up and either run for public office or vigorously support those who do. They are not even representative of most liberals.

This is a diverse group of people. Some of the loudest voices are the ones who are least representative of the general population. They are bitter and angry. They are also poor communicators and lack social skills. They are, in a way, doomed to do what they do, as positive outlets for change are closed to some of them. They can't get people to change their votes because they lack the skill or grace to hold meaningful conversations. Okay?

I saw Senator John Kerry on Sunday in Roxbury Massachusetts. He was happy to be there. Whome said the same thing. He delivered a nice speech that pointedly said that he is aware of fraud and is fighting it. He then walked 2.5 miles through the city of Boston to call attention to the unfinished job of getting civil and voting rights for all Americans. This was the specific goal of this walk. Mr. Kerry walked side-by-side with Rep John Lewis, an icon of the Civil Rights Movement in America.

I saw this with my own eyes. There is nothing that a lefty freeper can say to make me forget this or to doubt what I saw and heard with my own eyes and ears. Part of the reason that we all report back in here after a 'Kerry-sighting' (LOL!) is to share what we heard and to inform each other of what is really going out there in the real world. Well, this I saw with my own two eyes. Someone who was trying to make a real difference in the real world. Someone who was trying to get Civil Rights on the national agenda.

I saw John Kerry today. So did Dynamic Dem. Kerry was happy, upbeat and trying to do his best to get a good Democrat re-elected. We need more elected Democrats. We need more Democrats to join together in unity so that we can triumph at the polls and beat back the horrors of the neo-con agenda. The John Kerry I saw today was not downbeat and didn't show the slightest sign that he was depressed about the future. He looked happy and concerned and delighted to be around kids. (Kids just seem to light him up. He just loves to talk to kids.) He obviously believes that it is possible to turn things around. If he didn't he wouldn't have shown up. (And he got a lot of love at both events.)

DU is not the real world. It is a tiny and skewered subset, as we all know deep down inside. Do not take this poison inside yourselves. DU is not the real world. This storm at DU will blow over. Storms do, after all, come and go. Don't let it get you down. Listen to what LeftyLizzie said about the speech at Georgetown and how Sen. Kerry had great interplay with the crowd and laughed and was actually relaxed and funny. Listen to Karynnj who saw Kerry in NJ not too long ago and reported back on a guy who was, ahm, happy to be there and happy to be speaking about electing a good Dem as Gov of NJ. This much I know is true, that is not the KErry we see in some threads on DU.

We saw it with our own eyes. We were there.

[JI7]

1. i agree

thanks for the post.

i hope people post more positive things in this forum.

he got a good response at Rosa Park's funeral also. and the speech was incredible.

[ray of light]

2. Thank you tay, tay

Great points.

[GRLMGC]

3. Thank God, DU is not the real world

Too bad they don't realize that.

Regardless, thanks for the reminder. It makes me feel A LOT better about the world, haha

[wisteria]

4. Your exactly right. So much that goes on here at DU does not

even register in the "outside" world. A lot of wisdom in what you say. Thanks.

[jillan]

5. That is what's so crazy about all of this

Kerry continues to knock my socks off.

I think that what we have witnessed this weekend is alot of pent up emotions that resurfaced. The disappointment of 1 year ago came back to haunt the blogs. It will always be there until the voting situation is resolved.

But - no matter what anyone says out there, they are never going to change my mind. I want Kerry to run again in 2008, and I am "reporting for duty".

[k j]

6. The other day,

here in Rural Red, a guy came in and started going off on the Bush Medicare plan. He was furious and loud. There were a couple of nuns in the room. He finally said, "I'm sorry Sisters, but..." and continued his rant against Bush's policy.

It brought such joy to my day, you wouldn't believe.

[jenndar]

7. Thanks for posting.

I just got back from seeing Senator Boxer speak. She was happy and relaxed, and said she has the strength to do her job because she never, ever forgets what she's in Washington fighting for, and that her fellow Democratic senators feel the same way. They are energized by the need to remain progressive in the face of the radical right's struggle for power.

I was thinking about Senator Kerry the whole time, and his unwillingness to let certain defeats interfere with his overall projects of fairness and justice. I'm glad others on here are doing that, too, because the Senator's message is a lot more compelling and inspiring that a lot of the dissenting voices that populate DU.

[kerrygoddess]

8. Thanks for this

I think it is important to remember that a lot of what goes on here is not representative of the real world or those we support.

There's always places to go to get a breath of fresh air from the infighting. It's good to get out and about on the blogosphere.

There's:
LUTD - http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/
DCP - http://www.democracycellproject.net/blog/
Independents for Kerry - http://ifk-johnkerry.blogspot.com/
Article of Faith - http://articleofaith.blogspot.com/
Freedom's Fire - http://freedomsfire.blogspot.com/
Nite Swimming - http://niteswimming.blogspot.com/
Tough Enough - http://www.toughenough.org/
Upper Left - http://upper-left.blogspot.com/
The Lyceum - http://www.thelyceum.net/
The Tao of Politics - http://taoofpolitics.blogspot.com/
The Democratic Daily - http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com
Little Clarkie's - http://littleclarkie.blogspot.com/

The list goes on... I know I am forgeting some... help me out with naming some more good Kerry supporting blogs and just plain common sense blogs!

[k j]

11. Great choices....

Positive folks, unite!

[karynnj]

12. Thanks for the list KG

Spending time in any of them would have made more sense than the other areas of DU yesterday.

[kerrygoddess]

14. LOL!

It's a jungle out there! :crazy:

[WildEyedLiberal]

36. My blog with Firespirit

http://patriotdiaries.blogspot.com

I know we don't update much, but hey.

[kerrygoddess]

41. Oops...

Got it in my blogroll.

[politicasista]

37. Here's another one

He hangs out at Ron and KG's blog, but this is a good one too.

http://ohiokerry.blogspot.com/

[kerrygoddess]

40. It is a good one!

We need more Kerry blogs! ;)

[karynnj]

9. Thanks for the reality check

What you say is important. The things Kerry is doing are important. May be the reason he is happy, relaxed and energized is he knows that he is doing the right thing. He really did look so comfortable with the NH crowd. I wish that I would have thought to mention the Boston march and the Rosa Parks speech as very recent times where he has talked about counting every vote. It's hard to be more public about someting than marching in the streets of Boston!

The DU people are pushing Kerry to do what he thinks is unwise. At this point there is no proof that anyone has produced that would hold up. Even if proof was found, there is no provision in the constitution for a special election. As far as history is concerned, unless either undergoes a total transformation, Bush will not be well regarded and Kerry will be a hero based on his entire career, even if he doesn't become President. (My assumption is the country will spring back towards the center, because this is about as RW as we ever got. So a serious history of this era would likely reject the RW mentality that for the most part has chacterized the last several decades.)

[ginnyinWI]

27. and I don't think any DUers would be able to push Kerry anywhere!

That is a really funny image--someone like JK being pushed around by DU, afraid of losing their votes. :rofl:

I know everyone here has confidence that he'll never do any such thing. Facts, principles and ideals guide this man, and that is why he is so grounded and so happy. He's sure of his direction.

[Firespirit]

10. Thanks TayTay.

I usually manage not to let the other forums in DU get me down, but it still makes me feel bad when my friends get excessively upset about the "people" that populate them. We do need to keep everything in perspective. DU is an internet forum for a particular segment of the Left. It isn't the Democratic Party.

Basically it's irrelevant at this point whether Kerry says publicly that he thinks he was robbed... because there's nothing that can be done about the past. The thing to do is to eliminate that possibility from ever appearing again. Make it so that the election cannot be stolen. Kerry is trying his best to do just that. He's even got an entire section on his website about election reform last I looked at it.

The Count Every Vote Act is not perfect. It does well in working on voter suppression and discouragement, and it requires a paper trail for DRE machines, but there are other problems. There are some things that I wish would be added to it with respect to election software regulations, which I would get into here only I suspect it would come off as quite geeky and jargonish and over most people's heads. But the bill is a good start and is a HELL of a lot more than any of these keyboard warriors has done. Possibly if we can retain our current popular opinion advantage and make major gains in Congress (I dare not say "retake" although I understand that's a possibility), then the Kerry/Clinton/Lautenberg/Boxer bill can be improved upon, passed, and implemented in time for 2008.

[karynnj]

13. But the keyboard warriors know all about fair voting

After all they put 2008 polls up all the time, when they're not bashing Kerry. (Today GDP is fancy it has one who do you not want and another who do you want. )

[sandnsea]

15. Thank you TayTay

I really need to hear that stuff because like I said, Oregon is DU LIVE!! I can't even go to a Dem meeting and get away from it. But the thing I am reminding myself of is that when I see a lefty freeper type in person, I just listen intently and let it go. I have to start visualizing the people I run across here the same way.

And hearing posts like yours helps enormously!!

[Blaukraut]

16. You are correct

We should always keep in mind just who, exactly, the Kerry bashers are, and in what small proportion they are actually represented on DU. Like you said, Tay Tay - they seem to be the loudest, but by no means the majority, nor do they represent the general electorate.
If John Kerry decides to run in '08, happens to win the primary, and ends up being our candidate again, 90 % of the current bashers will vote for him again. The 10 % that won't - well, they didn't vote for him last time, either.
As to the nasty threads...They will not go away until after the primaries, or until Skinner puts a stop to them. I personally try to ignore them. The less attention they are given - even if it is a post defending John Kerry, the faster they sink to the bottom - where they belong.
I have believed in John Kerry as my senator, as our presidential candidate, and as a good and kind human being. No bashing, badmouthing, and trashtalking is going to change that.
You guys are all true supporters. Don't let your spirits be brought down by anyone. We need to stay positive, because there's a long way to go still :-)

[BlueIris]

17. Yeah.

I'm still wiped out from the hate, though. I guess. It's virtual hate, but it's there. Sorry to be the wet blanket, and of course, TayTay's welcome dose of REALITY is great as always, but--!! Kerry supporters are currently being compared to Nazi brownshirts in some areas of this website. Yes, I alerted. Still vile.

[jillan]

18. last night we were monkey wrenches, tonite brown shirts?

And what shall we be tomorrow?

[beachmom]

20. Thanks so much, Tay Tay, for posting this!

I read a lot here at DU last night, including the frayed nerves of Kerrycrats and the certified lunatics on the main threads. Some people here go so far to the left, so far into conspiracyland, that they made accusations against * that even someone as anti-* as me found deplorable and completely out of line. The guy basically had * calling Kerry and threatening his kids if he didn't concede based on no evidence (oh yeah, his evidence was that Kerry was choked up and nearly crying in his concession speech). This crosses the line for me, and makes me embarrassed to have an account here. The thing is that DU is largely unknown in the MSM world, and if you want to help Kerry out, you're better off defending him against flamers on DailyKos, which got a huge mention in the British magazine The Economist a couple of weeks ago, talking about "Father Fitzmas". But only in recommended and front paged threads. The only time I heard about DU in the press was when someone (who knows, maybe the guy just mentioned) said that * was responsible for the Tsunami last January.

To defend DU I will say that the technology is tip top, they have some interesting front page articles, and they had the wisdom to put together a forum like this one. I urge all of you to stop reading these stupid threads, because you're wasting time you could be spending thinking about how to get more Dems elected or becoming informed about all of the issues we face today. I have to say that there are a few sites by ex-Republicans like andrewsullivan.com and bullmooseblog.com which although they may say things I disagree with, at least are intelligent and have evidence to support their claims. If you're going to be annoyed with reading something, at least read someone who is a professional journalist or writer, has thought things through, and may point you to a story you never would have found otherwise. That's in addition, of course, to the many blogs KG mentioned above which are a great read.

To close, I want to thank all of you who post Up Close and Personal stories with Kerry. They mean more to me than anything else and moved me from simply respecting and voting for Kerry to becoming a devoted supporter. You are creating a record of the high character Kerry possesses, giving evidence all the time of his integrity, grattitude, kindness, politeness, empathy for others, consideration, toughness, intelligence, tireless fighter, willingness to do the mundane but important hard work -- all of the characteristics people look for in a president. The stories you tell are what keep me coming back here, and confirm my gut instinct that Kerry is no ordinary pol, but someone who really cares and is willing to do what it takes to stand up for all Americans.

[JanusAscending]

42. " KERRY LOVERS"!!!!

:evilgrin: O8) :evilgrin: :toast: Love ya all! It's sooooo refreshing to get away from the bile being spewn at DU. Coming here brings my blood pressure back to normal!

[BlueIris]

43. GOD.

"KERRY LOVERS!!!" + "Marsha, Marsha, Marsha!" + "I have a new boyfriend and his name is George Glass" made my head explode. What a bunch of goddamned fucking freaks poorly informed losers.

[Island Blue]

19. Thanks for this Tay Tay.

I wasn't here at DU this time last year and I know Senator Kerry probably got bashed a lot then too, but sometimes I think that a lot of these folks are looking at 2004 through 2005 glasses. They have forgotten (maybe on purpose) that the political atmosphere now, is a hell of a lot different than it was then. * was much, much stronger a year ago and many of the huge mistakes he has made were still ahead of him therefore it was easier for him to get away with his shenanigans. (To put it mildly.) Also at that point, he surely wasn't polling at 35%.

You're exactly right though, DU is really representative of very little. I think our heads know that, but sometimes our hearts need a little reminding!

[karynnj]

21. That's very true

Part of that perception may have been fed by the pundits talking about Bush's poll numbers that vavied from the high 40s to low 50s and sayimg that no sitting President with ratings below 50 ever won. Before the election, this bothered me because there were no Presidents in the range between the low 40s and 50. From history, you could only really say below something in the low 40s - Bush was in a range where there was no data in recent times.

People who posted comparing Clinton's campaign ignore that he was at 39% in the month leading up to the election. (and Perot was running). Bush at 35% would be easily defeated.

[MH1]

22. Thanks TayTay. So true.

However, I am disappointed that a site as large as DU allows what is going on with regards to Kerry. And I'd be just as disappointed if they were allowing it to happen to Dean, or Clark, or anyone else who is a key player in the Democratic Party.

When a flamebait post is allowed to make it to the top of the "Greatest" page, you have to wonder.

:shrug:

[globalvillage]

23. Thanks, Tay Tay.

I'm happy to hear that Sen Kerry is so well received at his appearances in the real world. We don't get to see much of that, and it helps to be reminded that the few haters on DU aren't representative of the general electorate. Thank God, they're not. There's some pretty wild fiction out there.
"We need a common man like Dean" (LOL, talk about coming from $), "Kerry kept 80 million for his '08 campaign", "He has not said a single word about (my pet issue)."
It's tough to stay focused when the lies are blatant, and people are not willing to research to find the truth. They're entitled to their own opinions, but they're not entitled to their own facts. So, although I don't think we should ignore them when they post false information, I also believe we should not let their petty, uninformed rantings get us down.
Thanks for the pep talk.

[ray of light]

24. Tay, Tay we all breathe a collective sigh of relief

thanks to your terrific reminder.


It HAS been a bad two days for Kerry supporters. But JK will weather this storm as he has all others.

I do often wonder why it is that I see our kerry group supporting all the candidates yet the others have to attack him. But it's something that makes this group here a nice group to hang with.

[ginnyinWI]

28. my theory

We Kerrycrats are inspired by JK's example--we see that if you believe in your cause, you don't need to pull anybody else down to make sure you come out on top. We are inspired by that ideal--he's our role model. Any criticisms on our board are usually backed up by facts and reasoning--like JK's were when debating a point in primary season debates. (But overall, the primary debates were conducted very decently by all, weren't they. Too bad the followers can't do the same.)
Also, since our candidate made it to the nomination, none of us have the bitterness that some of the supporters of other primary candidates may still have. They can always tell themselves that if only their candidate had won the nomination, * would have been ousted, and everything would be "roses and sunlight" today!

[k j]

29. There is an old, old

saying, that I think dates back to the poet Kabir. It goes something like this:

"We don't know what we know until we live it."

In other words, what we know in theory isn't really known until we live what we say we believe.
Easier said than done, of course. ;-)

[karynnj]

30. especially as the 2 bad days weren't real

that whole thing was only on the liberal boards. I assume his office called him but I doubt that was more than an annoyance. It is likely much ado about nothing.

The bigger problem may be the media lies on IWR and trying to demonize him on Iraq.

[Mass]

25. Thanks for posting that

[ginnyinWI]

26. and thanks, TayTay, for all of those great eye-witness posts

I really appreciate you and others who have been able to go to these live JK appearances and give us on-the-scene exclusive reporting, especially when the press is conspicuously absent!

I totally agree about the DU lefties. If we had a roomful of them and could listen to them talk in person, we'd probably laugh out loud at their ridiculous arguments. As I said in another thread, they are living in a bubble, and all of this contention at DU is only a "tempest in a teapot". They make the same emotion-based arguments over and over and over again, living in the past, unable to move on from their anger and disappointment and feelings of impotence.
Yes it's a tough world, but you can't simply hitch your wagon to a star--in this case a politician of choice, and expect that politician to make all your troubles go away. We are each responsible for our own happiness, and have it in our power to at least improve our attitudes, if nothing else. These people have choice between doing that or remaining mired in their negativity.

[europegirl4jfk]

31. I never read Kerry threads on DU

Why should I? If I want to read or talk about Kerry I come here. You are the greatest online group I've ever met! :loveya:

[blm]

32. Great love letter to this group...

I'd like to add that the reason I stay on GD and some of those threads is to be a deliberate counter to the most blatant disinformation.

I get no joy at all from doing it. But I have a great deal of tolerance for the most part and don't mind directing it for good use....when I have the time. When I don't I just go...eh.

[Dr Ron]

33. Remember the primaries

In the event there are people around here who weren't following the blogosphere before the primaries, the liberal blogosphere was a lot like GD here. Most were heavily for Dean and not only opposed Kerry but didn't take him seriously as a candidate. (Just because he was behind Al Sharpton in the polls at one point was no reason to write him off).

Those of us who did support Kerry were constantly responding to trolls who were spreading nonsense about him, such as that he supported the war.

Then people actually voted, and their votes looked nothing like what you would expect from following the blogs. A majority, including those who opposed the war, voted for Kerry. On line support was a meaningless predictor of who would win in 2004--and the same is true in 2008.

The one way in which 2008 does differ from 2004 is that there is a more formidable front runner. Dean's support, even when ahead in the polls, was very soft and meant little. Hillary is a different situation, but historically many Democratic front runners have not done as well as predicted. Remember Ed Muskie?

[k j]

34. "Remember the primaries"

Ron, I do. It was actually a grand experience to come from so far behind the perception polls, both on the internet and on the ground. Scuttlebutt is just that, scuttlebutt.

Personally, I don't take much that happens on-line seriously, because, except for the speed of communication and connection, I don't think the medium allows much leeway with regards to interactions with others of differing perspectives. It's too easy to take things one-dimensionally, make snap judgments about people and declare absolutes. Black/White duality.

I like the information gathering aspects of the internet and the ability to communicate with others who share common interests, but as for taking random postings seriously, it's just not my cup of (green) tea.


Edited to add: Unless of course, someone I know on the internet outright lies about Kerry's record. (Or me.)

[politicasista]

35. Thanks for the perspective TayTay

:yourock: :hi:

[k j]

38. Besides...

it's still very, very early in the election cycle. John Kerry picked himself up and got on with his life and his career, set his goals, and is out there doing what he does. Providing backbone and on-the-ground support for other progressive politicans, backing legislation for Americans and acting as opposition leader for anyone who cares to see him in that light. For him, I do believe it's a natural progression. He's doing what he's doing. I really think he's leaving the results of his actions alone.

Since the grief after Election 2004 subsided, the decisions I made about how to proceed centered around associating myself with people who are moving forward, just as Kerry is moving forward. People who find the good, the silver lining, in where we are now, not where we were even two months ago, let alone two years or twelve years ago. People who made the decision to spend their energy to promote positive movement and support politicans who are doing just that.

It's been a gift to find people like that. It was a gift after the pain.

I don't think we can teach anyone anything they aren't already hungry to learn. But maybe that's from living with a teacher and having a stubborn streak myself. ;-)

The internet is a great, great tool. We've barely tipped the crust of its possibilities and potential. But try and change people's minds online? In such a free-for-all unstructured environment? Only if someone is here to learn and doesn't mind admitting the fact.

In the meantime, I too love the first-person accounts and pictures. Lovely way for me to live vicariously through some more populated areas of the country. Thanks. :-)

[ohtransplant]

39. Thanks for the reminder.

It's easy to get wrapped up in DU as if it's where all Dem opinions originate.

That said, I really don't understand the level of vitriol for a loyal, hard-working Dem. Makes no real sense...

[BlueIris]

44. Kick. I'm having issues. Not with Kerry,

but with yet another brilliant online writer with opinions I respect(ed) on many complex social and governmental issues...who now apparently hates Kerry, and wrote a long editorial today bringing up (you guessed it) Skull and Bones, Kerry's alleged secret alliance with the far right, his cluelessness, selfishness and criminality. ACK. How can someone be so smart...and yet so STUPID?

[Mass]

45. I wonder whom you refer to.

[BlueIris]

47. I don't wanna say. It's not really someone anyone here would like.

And now, neither do I. There is a point past which pessimism, suspicion and hostility toward a man you DON'T EVEN KNOW, is no longer rational, no matter how his actions "look" to you, with all of your alleged worldly expertise. GOD.

[blm]

56. There was a freeper here at DU who used all those exact charges and outed

himself on election night.

There was a team of them who worked with each othert. They put together a whole act pretending to be from the left when they were actually operatives working to gin up hatred and didtrust for Kerry on the left.

[Mass]

58. A lot of these charges come from freepers sites

Unfortunately, some other people repeat them as a way to discredit Kerry .

[BlueIris]

60. I swear, I wasn't reading a freeper site!

And it's not like I believe everything I read there, at all. It was mainly entertaining and thought-provoking. And now, I think the author is (at least) an asshole.

[Mass]

69. I was not talking about you - I was talking about the person you quote

Sorry if there is a misunderstanding.

[BlueIris]

71. Okay. BlueIris no likey freepers.

Their non-logic makes my brain shut down. Like, a lot.

[BlueIris]

59. Okay, I swear, that's not what he is, and not what he's doing.

I honestly just think it's come from an insane, INSANE, ultra-paranoid distrust of anyone from the U.S. Senate/U.S. "upper class." If anything, this guy reminds me of a "left wing freeper" who's trying to create hatred and distrust for Kerry on the left. You'd find some correlation between his ideas and those espoused at MM.com. (I have little against Moore, but the people he's letting run his site, particularly the MustRead staff, are batshit. And LWF all the way.)

[blm]

61. Then why did senators like Gore side with Reagan/Bush AGAINST Kerry on

IranContra and BCCI? Seems to me that Gore, as a senior senator, could have taken over the crucial investigations instead of siding with BushInc against Kerry who was left on his own.

BTW...you could also mention that neither Robert Parry or Gary Webb who were the ace investigative reporters on many crucial stories then never doubted Kerry's work or his motivations.

If there was something fishy they would have been the FIRST to see it.

Bet the BSers can't answer that.

[BlueIris]

62. Oh, now, you see, I bet the response you'd get from the BSers

is that Kerry is even more protected than Webb, Parry or H.S. Thomspon, and therefore, they were too afraid to write the truth about him!!! The author I've changed my opinion about was a fan of Webb's anyway, but curiously never pointed out anything about Webb's support for Kerry's motives.

[blm]

63. Webb likely died BECAUSE he counted on Kerry to get in office and open the

books needed to clear his name.

Kerry needed those books opened. Remember, he was the one who fought BushInc in court to get those documents seen by the public.

BushInc and Clinton do not want BCCI books opened. Clinton was snowed by Poppy to keep BCCI books closed and now he's been coopted into the coverup, unwittingly or not. Bush played on Clinton's naivete like a violin, imo.

[BlueIris]

64. Just to clarify, I never believed anything he insinuated about Kerry,

and think some of the charges about Clinton are just completely delusional.

Some of the other stuff on his blog was intriguing, and that's all.

But, since this is a thread for outrageous things said online about Kerry, carry on.

[blm]

65. I always post rebuttal to help those not as accustomed to battling the

outrageousness. I know where it comes from and who has been pushing it for years.

[karynnj]

73. Thompson went way out of his way to praise Kerry last year

Hating Bush would have led to a "Bush is evil" story (which you can get from what he wrote, without the extreme praise for Kerry. How much stronger can you get then,

"I endorsed John Kerry a long time ago." he said, "and I will do anything in my power, short of roaming the streets with a meat hammer, to help him be the next President of the United States."

and:

"Of course I will vote for John Kerry. I have known him for thirty years as a good man with a brave heart - which is more than even his best friends ...."

Clearly not an ABB endorsement (I love the description in the second quote.)

[karynnj]

46. Why on earth are they pushed to do this?

This is beyond stupid. There are many things that they could critique - why do they feel the need to use Republican smear character assinations. I have no problem when they say they think he was a poor candidate, but why would they repeat nonsense that he has a secret alliance with the far right.

This is beyond stupid. You would have to believe that at least 30 years of his life were a lie. That Nixon wanted him to lead the anti-war movement - and knew his tapes would become public so he pretended to command his people to harrass him. So, the RW threw rocks through his window. We know his history - there is less reason to believe this of him than anyone.

Where is he coming from?

[BlueIris]

48. All I can tell you about where he's coming from is...

I don't think it's entirely rational anymore. I actually think that in order to believe Kerry's hooked up with the right, in addition to believing his entire life was a lie, or that he honestly wants to do anything less than work extremely hard to help the legitimate left, you would have to have been absolutely BLIND to what Kerry was doing for much of the election last year. He was playing to win. Especially in the debates. The finely-controlled hatred for Bush was evident in my eyes (although there are some nut cases who claim Kerry was "faking" his dislike). Especially in the second debate. Those weren't the actions of a guy who is either hooked up with Bush pals, looking to "pretend" he didn't fight, or trying to lose. It also wasn't the move of a man who is afraid of the neo-cons, although some still believe he should be. GOD. Skull and Bones. Right.

[TayTay]

50. This is clearly insane.

People who believe this should seek psychiatric counseling. I understand when people have trouble dealing with a loss. But this is clearly so sour and destructive to the ends they allegedly triumph that it makes me question their mental state. It's sad.

From Bull Durham:
Ebby Calvin LaLoosh: A good friend of mine used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.

[karynnj]

53. You would have to believe so many impossible things

that they can't all be listed.

- Kerry was fantastic in the debates and that would be the easiest place to throw it. Every Democratic forum cheered him on.
- Also from the point he got the nomination (when if this idiocy were true he could take it easy) he, his wife, 2 daughters, 2 of his step sons took on more rallies than I remember any candidate doing.
- Also, if there was a deal that he would throw it, how do you explain the character assination. Why would Kerry agree to let them call him a war criminal and a traitor? Why would he let them absolutely trash his wife's character and characterize his marriage as they did. Even his daughters weren't spared. I have never seen as massive a smear job in my life - if you believed all of them he is left with absolutely nothing - he has done no good, much evil, he has no intelligence and he is inarticulate (even per some on the left), he did nothing in the Senate, he has no conscience and his votes are all political. So, what exactly did Kerry get out of this deal? ( Also, I nominate Vanessa and Alex for all existing acting awards.)

I am so sick of this S&B stuff. Kerry was a 21 yr old college student. Even if we assume that it was a big RW underground power group (with high ranking Democrats as well), everyone who has spoken of Kerry's life has said that he changed in Vietnam. (This transformation has more observable characteristics than Bush's being born again.) Even if Kerry started in college on a path that would have led him in that direction - his path since Vietnam is certainly public and it is not RW.

[BlueIris]

55. Whew. It's good I have this group to wring me out.

Personally, I just--I didn't know the author has seriously, seriously believed Kerry made a "bad" call when he conceded on Nov. 3rd. He hasn't posted anything about that until just now, so--you know, I actually took his silence about that as a sign that someone as intelligent as he is HAD to understand that Kerry couldn't have done anything more, even with all the suspicions this writer had alluded to in the past. Because, you know, he seemed like a smart guy, with some occasionally wild theories. I had even speculated that he was some kind of a quiet Kerry supporter or something, because he had declined to bash him openly after the election. Now...damn. What have I been reading?

[karynnj]

66. Like others, I have no idea who you're talking about

My responses were just to your description. It's strange that he's obsessed with the Forbes history. It seems what Kerry got from his mother on that was a sense of duty. His dad, a diplomat and a Kerry, not a Forbes, was suppose to be an influence on his worldview.

It was also clear in the posts that they were most definitely not your opinions. Also, if the post stated they were, I would guess someone - not you - wrote on your account.

[blm]

67. This person sounds EXACTLY like seventhson who also passed as a true lefty

with his talk of legal work for the homeless and his essays exposing Bush as a Nazi, yet all the time smearing Kerry as a supposed made man by the Bushes because of his Forbes ancestry.

[BlueIris]

70. It ISN'T. And I can't say who it is because...

I've just remembered that he does have a presence on DU. Sorta. He hasn't posted in a while. That wouldn't probably constitute a "call out." My guy has never said anything about any legal work for the homeless...or much about what he does do, actually. I didn't post this to try to make people like, guess his identity, I was mostly just shocked that someone I thought maybe didn't like Kerry very much, but was otherwise "helping the cause," knows nothing about Kerry, is misinterpreting what he knows, and is an asshole. That's been kinda disheartening for me.

[blm]

77. I didn't say it was seventhson, but this person's information sounds like

it came from seventhson, who also had other identities at other sites.

His info matches seventhson's postings, so I have no doubt that this person has been thoroughly duped.

[BlueIris]

49. Okay, there is one more thing...

this guy seemed to have a major issue with Kerry's ancestral connection to the Forbes family. As if that were proof of anything John Kerry has personally done or advocated in this lifetime. And he's one of the insane folks who thinks the BCCI investigation "didn't go far enough," and insinuates that this is proof that behind closed doors, Kerry actually protects neo-cons, money launderers and terrorists. Yeah, okay, as you're reading this, you're probably wondering why I ever bothered to stick around his site in the first place. It's mostly because some of the other articles were so...good. He's a person who loved the examples set by JFK and RFK and MLK (and how a writer like that could love those people and their legacies and NOT John Kerry's...don't know). He's outraged by environmental destruction around the world. He fears another conveniently timed terrorist attack as much as I do. I'm just saying...the rest of it seemed logical and does not read like a bunch of RW-sponsored nonsense. Really. But once again, Skull and Bones??? What is he, eight years old? Kidding. I have the misfortune of knowing he's 44.

[JI7]

51. sounds like the right wing troll seventhson

can you send me a pm telling me who you are talking about.

[BlueIris]

52. It isn't.

Um, I really don't want to say who it is...no point, I'm not going to his site anymore. Except to laugh. And watch his boards get flamed.

[karynnj]

54. That is crazy that he blames Kerry because BCCI

didn't go far enough - Kerry would be the first one to agree. The problem is he fought it well beyond his Senate job and he had no allies in the Senate. So, is every Senator in the late 80s and early 90s guilty. Same for Bush I and Clinton. Why would Kerry write a now chilling list of what was left undone? (BLM posted this on one thread - someone then blamed Kerry for not being able to get others t work with him on this.)

[BlueIris]

57. Actually, now that you point that out...

he's one of the writers who irrationally believes Clinton and 41 are "essentially the same politician," and have been for many years. Yes, I understand, they shared many of the same fundraising ties, but--whatever exists between those two is, in my mind, purely political, it isn't about a correlation of values or long-term goals. It's also not that important. That was one of the things about the website I thought was extremely irritating, but, once again, there were pieces on it that were interesting, well-written and valid. I swear. Now, I just feel like someone konked me one.

[Island Blue]

68. Why do some people feel the need to believe that EVERYTHING

is a conspiracy? I have my tin foil hat moments too, but some folks seem to think that the powers that be are all part of a giant conspiracy that spans the generations. If that's the case, there are some much better actors in D.C. than there are in Hollywood!

[BlueIris]

72. Well, after you've been exposed to some of the more believable

conspiracy "theories," (which aren't theories, so much as they are observable fact) like the one which sent us to war in Iraq, maybe everything DOES start to look interconnected. Still, though, there are some things that aren't part of it.

[karynnj]

74. I first saw the contra drug stuff in the Clinton years

and ignored it as a strange unlikely conspiracy that was another of the strange Clinton smear campaigns. (I didn't read enough to even know that this was documented in a Senate report by Sen Kerry.)

[TayTay]

75. That one was a real eye-opening

that got buried. They worked on that for years and then the report came out and then, nothing. {crickets} (The Iraq War is not the first time that big government screw-ups have been buried in the MSM, unfortunately.) The physical copies of the Report were available in the document office for one week, then went out-of-print. No wonder that had to be handled through the courts. (Read Jack Blum's testimony before Congress after the Webb articles stirred everything up again in '95.)

Kerry was called a conspiracy nut by the MSM. His own party bungled the Iran-Contra hearings and gave immunity to the the wrong people so they couldn't even be summoned to court later. And then Bush Senior pardoned a lot of these Iran-Contra guys. Sigh! (Just as Bush will probably pardon Libby, but maybe not until after the '06 midterms.)

I wrote this once before, but the most gauling thing, as an American, was when Oliver North ran against Chuck Robb for the Senate in '94 and had the nerve to run a drug-running charge against Robb. (North is one of the all-time great assholes. He makes me sick. He is another traitor.)

[karynnj]

76. I remember your posts on that at the start of the Bolton hearings

Your post that explained they were willing to bring drugs in because it helped their goals in CA was an eye opener for me. In a very real sense it absolutely changed my view of history and politics of the last several decades. That it IS part of the official record, but is absolutely ignored is amazing. The horror of the inner cities in the 80s and the damage done to people is hard to even think of and it truly bothers me the country still sees St Ronnie and "Just say no" Nancy (who I hope never knew).

I never knew North ran a drug running charge against Robb - just that it was a very sleasy campaign. It sicken me that he and the SBVT (on Fox) questioned Kerry's morality and patriotism.

[TayTay]

78. North tried everything to derail that investigation.

There was a Repub mole in the Senate Foreign Relations Committee (a Repub staffer) who kept North advised on every step of the investigation. (This was begin under Repub rule, so Lugar was in charge of SFRC, which this investigation was under.) North had numerous entries about Kerry in his notes (which were later subpoenaed for court.)

Considering that everyone hated him, that Lugar thought he was showboating and that the Dems didn't really understand him (though Pell wasn't bad), Kerry got about as much done as any human could have. (For gawd sakes' they even tried, in a totally stupid way, to say he, Kerry, was drug-running in Honduras and even tried to plant fake evidence on him. He kept going. Read the Blum testimony. Blum could not believe that Justice Department people were so upset by this that they were on the phone creaming at a US Senator and telling him to back off. Can you imagine that. Screaming at a US Senator. Yet. Kerry just kept it going.)

There's a pretty good article on this here: (for our newbies) http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/102604B.shtml

End of article says:

This pattern of obstruction occurred while Vice President Bush was in charge of stanching the flow of drugs to the United States. Kerry made himself a pest by demanding answers to troubling questions.

"He wanted to get to the bottom of something so dark," former public defender Mattes told me. "Nobody could imagine it was so dark."

In the end, investigations by government inspectors general corroborated Kerry's 1989 findings and vindicated his effort. But the muted conclusion of the Contra-cocaine controversy 12 years after Kerry began his investigation explains why this chapter is an overlooked - though important - episode in Kerry's Senate career. It's a classic case of why, in Washington, there's little honor in being right too soon. Yet it's also a story about a senator who had the personal honor to do the right thing.

[rockymountaindem]

79. Word.

Hey everybody! Sorry I haven't been around in a while. Then again, this probably isn't the best place to get noticed, down 'round post 79 in an unusually long Kerry thread. But hey, small steps. Did ya miss me :P

Anyway, I agree wholeheartedly with you, TayTay. At first I was afraid, I was petrified, thinking that DU represented the Dem. community at large (that doesn't really fit the tune, though). But in the past couple of months, I've realized that a lot of people here don't have any more clue what's going on than your average freep. It's given me a whole new perspective. I'm no longer shy about telling people they're being idiots.