Howard Dean inserted Kerry into his op-ed against the HCR bill. Kerry has responded (civilly)

[beachmom]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x67206

I just want to say that Howard Dean is being reckless and just plain awful at the moment. But I think the WH and some Senators are reacting too strongly at the moment. They need to temper their words.

Edit: someone just suggested Kerry pick up the phone and call Dean. Might not be a bad idea.

[JI7]

1. it's kind of confusing

[beachmom]

2. What part?

[JI7]

3. i mean the argument

i think it's just a misunderstanding maybe. but Dean is asking for something to be included that is already in there ?

[sandnsea]

4. I just moved into a new house, and it's Christmas

and I am thrilled because otherwise I'd be banned in about ten seconds flat. It's just another baseless irresponsible feeding frenzy.

[beachmom]

5. This is really what it's about:

http://twitter.com/markos/status/6779033437

RT @aravosis: On WH conf call for bloggers, Nico w/ Huff Post just told Axelrod that Bush was nicer to his base than Obama is to ours. Snap!

Wow, they really told the White House, didn't they? Hey, can you be more like Bush? Hey, you aren't being NICE ENOUGH to us? They claim it's all on substance, but the fact remains that they just want to be noticed. Not all, but many in the Netroots haven't been in the trenches like a lot of old time Democratic volunteers and organizers.

Al Giordano:

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/3691/health-care-what-would-teddy-do

Sadly, Teddy had to leave us last year. But he left us with a plea to pass a health care bill. To have come as far as this bill has come and not push it over the goal line would be a personal betrayal not only to Ted, but, with concrete and willful violence, toward the 30 million poor and working people it would, if passed, subsidize and cover.

Not everyone feels that way.

In one corner, there is Senator Joe Lieberman – the Connecticut Independent who caucuses with the Democrats – saying, “do what I want or kill the bill.”

In the other corner, there are self-proclaimed “progressives” like Arianna Huffington, Keith Olbermann and Howard Dean saying, “do what I want or kill the bill.”

(And, funny, I don't remember a single instance until now when Huffington, Olbermann or Dean raised a peep against mandates. I know, because having been one of those lonely voices, I kept track of the short list of those of us who did.)

To me, they are the same as Lieberman: They’re seeking personal attention and to make themselves important and relevant. Whether they seek hit counts, ratings or to revitalize their political careers, their show is as transparently selfish as that of Lieberman. It doesn’t matter that they posture against Lieberman. As so often happens with bitter rivals who begin to resemble each other, they have become Liebermans.

And some leading bloggers of the “Netroots” have joined in the Lieberman imitators’ chorus. That was kinda predictable too.

The leading voices of the Netroots have long said, “Elect more and better Democrats.” And they have been part of their party’s success, at least on the first goal. The Democrats have 58 Senate members plus two Independents lined up with their caucus in the Senate. Sixty votes are needed there to stop the GOP promised filibuster on any kind of health care reform. And you know what? The way they’re behaving, if they keep it up, the math is unlikely to improve after the 2010 midterm elections.

And if this once in a lifetime chance to get the foot in the door with a health care law through Congress falters, it will likely be another 60 years before there will be another.

The unsubstantiated claims that this bill can be ripped up and the process can start anew ignore the lessons of the last six decades of US history. As Ted Kennedy understood, every issue has its moment and the iron has to be struck while it is hot. When “Hillarycare” crashed and burned in the 1990s, was there a second chance a year later? Nope. Not until now. If this bill gets killed, the game is over. That’s the fire that the bill killers are playing with.

Do it for the 30 million uninsured. Or if you don’t really care about poor and working folks (as seems evident to me reading the bill-killers’ “look at ME!” discourse) then at least go out and win this one - or get out of the way - for Teddy.

Al speaks for me.

[Luftmensch067]

7. Wow, thanks for posting this.

Go, Al!

[ProSense]

9. Wonderful statement. n/t

[karynnj]

14. Al, definately noit Dean, speaks for me too

This is a time where Teddy is missed more than ever. He would have the gravitas and the stature to smack Dean's idea out of contention.

I think part of what happened on the Kerry/Dean thing is that the Dean people rather than saying Dean was wrong on this one point - which was not a main point - instead blamed Kerry, who did NOTHING here other than push for one of the few things Dean likes. This is completely knee jerk on the supporters part. Dean was actually praising Kerry on that.

[MonteLukast]

17. That's exactly right, Karynnj

Dean was actually praising Kerry on that.

Here's the link from Daily Kos:

For those harboring doubt to Klein’s reading of the bill, according to Klein, Dean singles out John Kerry as the Senator who has been working the hardest on this issue. He contacted Kerry’s staff which afforded him with a comment from Kerry himself which said:

"The prudent purchasing provisions in the Senate health bill will lower costs and increase affordable options for consumers," Kerry says. "It’s strong language that will allow the exchange to deliver competitive prices and offer high quality care, and I’m thrilled to see national reform honor the best innovations already succeeding in Massachusetts."

[beachmom]

6. DU is a weird place. Once in a while someone says something like

maybe they know something.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=67206&mesg_id=67484

In response to someone suggesting Kerry call Dean:

He did and Dean still didn't back off even though Kerry told him he was wrong.

Hmmm.

[ProSense]

8. OT: people fanning

the conspiracy flames about PharMa. A flashback, here

[karynnj]

13. I actually think it was to save the entire bill as it was pretty

clear from Rockefeller's comment that he and other sponsors of the Dorgan amendment were going to vote against it for that reason.

They went off on NAFTA, so I posted what I wrote after Take Back America. I don't expect many to even read it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=70250&mesg_id=70986

This is a complex issue, unrelated to Dorgan's amendment and I think the "Edwards' Contingent" have far too simplistic views here. The labor pool of the world is globalized, whether we like it or not. Even without trade treaties, jobs will go where costs are lower. I saw a dress making factory in Sri Lanka. Though it was spotlessly clean, air conditioned, airy, and very modern, it has to have FAR lower costs than in the US.

It was the rise of the Industrial Revolution that gave the employer enormous power over easily replaceable workers that led to unions as a means of balancing power. To some degree, with the expanded choices the employers have, it seems that SOMETHING needs to exist to balance the power or wages will spiral down. This is an issue that needs to be dealt with thoughtfully - rather than with knee jerk slogans. I was impressed with Kerry's consistency in terms of the issues - not the votes, which given that they are "yes" or "no" can't reflect anything other than either extreme position - neither of which get to a solution.

[wisteria]

10. Could all this uproar have perhaps something to do with the oil and vinagar relationship

between Emanuel and Dean?

[MBS]

11. I think you're right about this

It would certainly explain the stridency.

Krugman, by the way, has a sensible column on health care bill in this morning's (Friday) NYT. Nice to see (I don't always agree with his political take on things, but I think he's on the right track this time)

[beachmom]

12. That's a good point. DNC vs. DCCC. And Schumer's DSCC as well.

Thing is, I always felt the victory in '06 and '08 were those three orgs working together. After all, oil alone or vinegar alone aren't that good. Put 'em together and you have Italian dressing.

That is why I am very disappointed in Dean here. He could have expressed disappointment without saying "kill the bill". But he was fairly reckless in '04 as well with his rhetoric (which ultimately led to his collapse in the polls right before Iowa), and frankly, his followers love the recklessness, while the rest of us remain repulsed.

OTOH, Emanuel has behaved badly, especially with the fact that Dean didn't get a cabinet position or any admin. position. They feared Hillary doing something like this from the Senate, yet they left Dean out there and now he has done damage. Emanuel doesn't always take the long term look.

[karynnj]

15. Interesting analogy

I think you are right that they should have thought of Dean, like Hillary. It clearly hurt his pride that he was offered nothing - even as he suggested he would take something like Surgeon General, which is not that powerful. I think they saw the Clinton threat more clearly as it really was both Clintons and between them they had more power than anyone but Obama.

They clearly read Kerry correctly, because he wouldn't put his ego in front of doing the right thing. There was no danger in giving him nothing. I think with Dean, they may have underestimated his strength, but it is possible they didn't. In 2003, Dean looked invisible in the blogosphere, but that didn't translate to the real world. There was a repeat of that in 2008 with Edwards, who never had the support in teh real world he had in the blogosphere.

At least for now, even Bernie Sanders is disagreeing with him. There are only 100 people who vote here - and if Dean did not influence fellow Vermonter, Sanders, he likely influenced no one. This is unpleasant, but I suspect that even if they predicted it, they might not want the loose cannon that he has been encouraged by the net roots to be within the administration. (He could not be the netroots version of Dean and a good team player - which he was as the moderate governor of VT. I suspect that the error (on Kerry's provision) in teh op-ed could hurt his argument if the WH opts to really fight him - which they likely won't as he maybe is not significant enough - he has said kill it before and then swung back - making him not that reliable on the issue.

[JI7]

18. Obama's approval ratings have gone up

[wisteria]

16. I don't disagree with anything you had to say. Emanuel seems to have thought Dean was no threat. n/t

[Mass]

19. Taking a break, but some heads up, if somebody is here this weekend.

The week-end will be hot. Here is the link that to a speech Kerry gave this afternoon http://www.c-spanvideo.org/flash/player-time.html?start=2009-12-18%2017:37:53&stop=2009-12-18%2018:35:35&net=2.

I dont have a lot of problems with what he said, but I will still have to figure out while the White House allies think it is useful to go after Dean. While Kerry makes that more artfully than Gibbs and Axelrod did, he still spend a lot of time in this speech to try to convince Dean and Olberman that the bill is good, and goes as far as reminding a quote by Dean from 93 about Medicare (opinion that Dean acknowledges, I heard him this morning talking about that on NPR). This speech is clearly aimed at telling liberals that the bill is good, and, while he started by going after the GOP, he is ignoring Lieberman and Nelson.

He makes a lot of excellent points and the speech is worth listening to, but something tells me that, given the speech was posted on GDP, the week-end will be high. Good luck!!

[beachmom]

20. Thanks for that info. Actually, I was just thinking that Kerry will soon

be The Most Hated Democrat when we move on to global climate change, because he will be forced to compromise (which he has already done).

Meanwhile, netroots is pissed off about this Brownstein post:

http://politics.theatlantic.com/2009/12/deans_blind_spot.php

I don't know. It's kind of true about DailyKos. I saw the people at Netroots Nation, and they were largely white, male, and well educated. African Americans have repeatedly complained about dkos being biased in that direction. So, although I wouldn't take it quite as far as Brownstein, he is basing this on demographics which is actually true.

[karynnj]

22. I think it is mixed

I think it is true of the majority of the Deaniacs, but maybe not of significant segments of the Dean people who in 2007 flocked to Edwards. I think a significant number of them were younger or much older and many less educated. (There were some that were clearly recent college graduates as well - including many who were quite articulate and intelligent.) (This is from comments they made of themselves. )

I suspect that the internet itself has become more varied since 2004 and has spread beyond the original group. DU seems to have more of the people that don't fit this pattern than Daily Kos. That might be that DK is more intimidating. There are some really smart people there.

Earlier this year, DFA hosted the bold progressive ad that dishonestly attacked Kerry. I sent emails to their site pointing out the truth - that Kerry's contributions were as high as they were because of money raised for the 2004 primary season when he followed Dean in not accepting public financing. I never got an answer. I exchanged email with the man who led the bold progressive effort - and to boil it down - he knew it was not fair, but he wanted JK to lead on this - and attacking him was his less than brilliant way to get this. Oddly, it was JK's ability to lead that made him do this.

I agree with you that Kerry could become as disliked as Baucus, who really did structure the bill well and who pretty much did identify what will pass with 60 votes. The fact is that they prefer rude behavior that accomplishes nothing (Franken's refusal to give Lieberman 30 seconds was asinine when we are trying to get him to not create havoc. It also likely was seen as a very Junior Senator being rude to a very senior one.) or the incomprehensible Howard Dean, who swung back and forth many times on this bill. After being obvious (far more than JK) that he wanted a position in the administration, this is likely to make him the new Kucinich if he really tries in 2012.)

But, I would rather Kerry get something that passes on climate change, than be the pure hero of the left, who valiantly fought but got only 5 votes. Even then he wouldn't be a favorite because his parents' lessons on manners were well learned. (About the number he would get if he had led the effort on single payer as the far left wanted.) I suspect that it won't be as bad as on health care because there are many that really do not care as much.

[beachmom]

23. In defense of Franken, it is my understanding that he was under strict

orders not to allow any Senator to go over the limit. That is what he said in a statement, and apparently other Senators were cut off as well. If it was to single out Lieberman and just be rude, then that was not helpful. However, if it was consistent all day, then it may be much ado about nothing. Franken is normally polite so I am not sure here what happened. But, admittedly, it was kind of funny, Lieberman's reaction. I agree with you, though, it didn't help Democrats.

Here is a Media Matters description of it:

http://mediamatters.org/blog/200912180032

Franken didn't do anything wrong.

[karynnj]

25. Thanks, that is good to know

I mostly saw the cheering in the blogospere.

[Inuca]

28. I think they had indeed strict orders

and if indeed the orders were "don't allow any additional 30 seconds", then that was the assinine part. Saw on Rachel or whereever that Begich did the same thing to Cornyn later. I was shocked (and not pleasantly) when I first saw what Franken did, but I must admit that his expression and tone in doing so were priceless, and the wisdom or lack thereof aside, I enjoyed each time that I saw a repeat of the exchange for the simple cathartic value of it.

[karynnj]

21. Thanks and I agree with you on the reaction on GDP

I think Kerry did a great job defending on many points what is good in the bill (I missed the end because our internet link is flaky. We will be driving from VT to NJ tomorrow.)

I think it was right for Kerry to go after the Republicans, with the very notable exception of Snowe. I understand why he did not go against any Democrats. He has to "court" them to get their votes. He has to bring them to see themselves as "the good guys" backing a bill, not totally to their liking, but one they could be proud (or at least comfortable) with having helped pass. I would guess that the same holds for Snowe. Remember that her vote to get it out of committee was partially not wanting to be on the wrong side of history. Kerry clearly does respect and like her, but attacking her would backfire.

Now, I assume the Deaniacs have gone ballistic, but they were that way yesterday and today when Kerry's "offense" was having gotten the piece in the legislation Dean actually liked - and mistakenly thought was not there. The fact is that they will attack Kerry, but Kerry is right on this and he is one of the few people with the gravitas to say what he did and to say it in a civil way.

Now, the same DU and Daily Kos that is praising Franken for rudely not giving Lieberman a requested 30 extra seconds on the floor of the Senate. I still am angry that Mitch McConnell rudely didn't let Kerry have the 5 or 10 minutes he requested when he was speaking on the Alito filibuster. This was worse - the same party and 30 seconds! The left needs to learn that rudeness usually gains you nothing and can cost you something. (This makes me think that Franken is not going to be all that successful as a Senator because that few seconds of satisfaction likely raised eyebrows of many senior Senators, angering more than just Lieberman.)

[beachmom]

24. Sam Stein has an article about it on Huff Po:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/18/kerry-breaks-out-oppo-tak_n_397800.html

It's on the front page there. Over 600 comments, most really nasty. Skull & bones, didn't fight for Ohio, that's why you're not President, etc. Not worth fighting those people, but it is worth putting up a positive comment, which I did.

[wisteria]

26. It is well over 900 now. I also left a positive message in support of Senator Kerry.

I didn't bother to read the posts- most are more then likely from Dean supporters and they drudge up all the old BS. Nothing new from these people. Dean is always the victim in their eyes- always being treated unfairly. I think for some, this is all about Dean and very little about health care reform.

[Inuca]

27. I happened to see the whole speech

the only part I had a problem with was the part you mentioned, when he went after what Dean said back in 93, I did not think that was necessary. Except that, I think it was a great speech, vintage Kerry, making the argument in depth and wisely. And I definitely agree with him. And by the way, loved the Giordano quote upthread, making a similar argument very well. As I was watching JK, I could not but think of all the flack he is going to get from the freeper left, but in the end this is irrelevant (or mostly). In any case, for those of you who did not see the speech, highly recommended. I wanted to come and post an alert here, but I was just back from a day in the hospital after some minor surgery, but still feeling achy, groggy, and with a bit of a fever. But it ws a nice"welcome home" present for one of the very first voices that I heard when I turned on the TV to be Kerry's, and to have Kerry reinforce what I have been thinking these last few days, that this damn bill, in spite of its glaring imperfections MUST pass. I was happy to hear Kerry make such a strong and cogent argument, and to see him put himself out there for Obama (and Teddy).

[karynnj]

30. Hope you are feeling better

I agree with everything you say - and like you, I think the 1993 comment was not needed and was really irrelevant to the rest of the speech. I assume the purpose was a shot across the bow at Dean, who really has been erratic on supporting Obama on this. I never thought the monomaniacal emphasis of the public option, almost as the holy grail, made good policy sense. To me, other things that had universal agreement beyond 60 votes were more significant.

We have to remember here that while Dean is GOD here, he is not elsewhere. Dean, himself, never really got a large percent of the votes anywhere. In 2008, even though the Dean people of 2004 often claimed Obama once it was Obama vs Clinton (which was to Obama's benefit), the candidate spouting the Dean (or Trippi) rhetoric was Edwards, who also did well on the internet, but poorly with the Democratic population at large.

Obama himself has to repeat much of what Kerry said and get behind this, as he did the stimulus package. I would not be surprised if Kerry going first is, just like in the campaign, Kerry breaking up part of the opposition. Splitting off that piece helps Obama take the high road and only address what is in the bill.

[Mass]

31. I was going to answer but I realize I cannot answer without saying things I would regret.

So, let's just say I deeply disagree with this.

[beachmom]

33. The thing is that there is an honest disagreement within the Democratic base

on this bill. Some sincerely think it is not worth it, while others think good things will come out of it. I think that is a good debate. Steve Benen lays out how much better the debate of left vs. left has been compared to left vs. right.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_12/021506.php

THE KIND OF DEBATE THAT'S LONG OVERDUE.... Maybe this is an esoteric point, but it occurs to me that the quality of the policy debate between competing progressive contingents is infinitely better and more interesting than the policy debate between Democrats and Republicans we witnessed over the last eight or nine months. It's probably an inconsequential observation, but I think it nevertheless speaks to a larger truth.

The thought came to me after reading two op-eds this morning -- Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) attacking health care reform from the right in the Wall Street Journal, and former Gov. Howard Dean (D-Vt.) going after reform from the left in the Washington Post. Both called for the defeat of the Senate Democratic plan, and both were written by leading figures on their respective side of the ideological fence, but only one had something sensible to offer.

Coburn's piece was absurd, wildly misleading, and included arguments that seemed oddly detached from the substantive reality of the debate. Dean's piece, which I personally disagree with, was nevertheless policy focused, serious, and credible. Dean's piece conveys the concerns of someone who cares deeply about health care and improving the dysfunctional system, while Coburn's piece reads like someone auditioning to be Sean Hannity's fill-in guest host.

I think long time Kerry supporters should feel safe here to speak for either side of the argument. It's an important debate. I had a problem with Dean calling to "kill the bill", but I also had a problem with the WH calling him not rational or insane. And now that I think about it, I wish Kerry hadn't brought up that 1993 remark. I'm sure something could be dug up about him as well. It's probably not best to get into that kind of shelling match. But, like the blogosphere, I think emotions are actually running high within the Democratic Congress as well.

So either, Kerry was fuming and wanted to hit where it hurts or he did it on purpose to get noticed. But I hope he understood how Dean supporters were going to react, and Dean supporters in the netroots are VERY POWERFUL.

[wisteria]

35. Very powerful to do what?

How could they really possibly hurt Senator Kerry big time? They never liked him anyway. I actually fail to see why the senator should taper what he had to say about Dean simply because the Deaniacs would get mad. They were after Kerry just the other day. I honestly do not see their power-FDL and Kos? Most people never heard of these sites and in the main stream those who do know about them laugh at them. I don't mean to argue, but why should Senator Kerry tip toe around these sites.

[beachmom]

38. Oh, to clarify, they are very powerful in getting their message out to the media

For example, we have no power to get our message out to the media, but Markos Moulitsas does. Jane Hamsher does. Obviously, they don't have a vote in the Senate, as Dean doesn't, but they are are nearly as powerful as Rachel Maddow or Keith Olbermann in getting their views aired far and wide, even if the names DailyKos or FireDogLake remain largely unknown by the general public. "The far left netroots" is now a term used commonly in the NYT, on cable, etc.

[wisteria]

34. Dean can not demand the bill be killed after some much time and effort on the part of others

and not expect to be called out for it. I have no sympathy for Mr. Dean. And, I think it was important to let the American public know that Dean is not going to set the tone or predict the outcome of health care reform. For all my anger at Leiberman and Nelson for holding out for what they wanted- they never said they wanted to kill the bill. And, as for Senator Kerry, I think he is always mindful of what his mentor and friend Senator Kennedy would have wanted. I don't think Senator Kennedy would have been pleased with Dean either-it was a ridiculous statement coming from a former governor and former head of the DNC.

[Inuca]

29. Kind of unrelated, but

I just saw it and wanted to share and make sure you guys see it too

Vicki Kennedy Backs Senate HealthCare Bill http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/12/18/814868/-Vicki-Kennedy-Backs-Senate-HealthCare-Bill

[fedupinBushcountry]

32. I just saw it too

and this is why JK is supporting the bill, plain and simple. He knew that Teddy would have voted for it, as no bill is perfect. I knew this was behind his reasoning and Vicki Kennedy spelled it all out perfectly.

[MBS]

36. good, sensible piece

She really seems to be first-rate

[ProSense]

37. Must read

Kerry on health bill

[beachmom]

39. This is good news. Both Howard Dean & White House are turning down the heat:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x78339