Can I vent?

[JohnKleeb]

Who are some of the Dean and Clark people to say they are only the sole grassroots. Damnit who are you to say I am less grassroots than you just because I gasp, yeah I fucking like John Kerry and if you got a problem with that, thats too bad beacuse I work just as hard as anyone to get points across. I am 17 years old for christ sake, Ive attended two anti war rallies, one pro choice rally, and one anti inagural. These jerks who think they and only they are right are what make things go bad, they see things in black and white, not shades of gray and thinking in shades of gray is how we should goddamn think. I like and goddamn admire John Kerry and I just don't feel the same about Howard Dean and Wes Clark, and because of that, that to you makes me less grassroots than you are, wow you got some complex to think that because I am a fucking student who hasnt made anymore than 5.50 an hour. Sorry for the vent, carry on with your normal Kerry loving :). Kerry= btw the best presidential candidate of my life.

[ginnyinWI]

1. their ideal candidates have never been tested...

Clark didn't make it far, and Dean didn't survive the primaries. So their supporters are free to imagine any wonderful scenario they want to about what could have been...

I suppose we Kerrycrats might also be tempted to do that about how Kerry would have been as president had he won--but I do think we are admiring him mainly for his traits and talents that we see him showing us every day . He is so busy and visible, after all, that we have no time to idealize the guy--he's out there doing things and in our faces all the time, lol!

Clark is back in the shadows, so will be idealized. We'll see how Dean does in the hero-worship department, now that he is back in a real job and has actions and words that can be judged! Me, I want to stay in the reality-based community and see JK as a real human being--there's plenty to admire already, without idealizing him.

[elshiva]

3. As a Derryiac, ginny, I have to disagree somewhat

about Dean. Politically Dean has been tested as a good Governor and he led a very inspiring campaign. That said equally inspiring are/were Kerry, Kucinich (for the non-violent issues), and even Mosley-Braun (if only for just being a black woman in the running again). Yes, he needs a chance to change the party. Be patient. Give him at least a year to improve upon things. Not just a couple weeks (lefty freepers will soon descend)...

As for Clark, I agree with you ginny, he never was tested politically. So, some Clarkies overidealize him when he really does not have a political record. He was a general, which IMHO, does not prepare one for political office very well.

Yes, I want to say that I admire Kerry and Kucinich as well as Dean, for their grassroots campaigns, which are still in effect actually if you count The Friends of Kerry mailings and Kucinich's appeal for the Dept. of Peace.

[ginnyinWI]

4. elshiva, I didn't mean Dean has had no experience,

I meant specifically that his supporters didn't get a chance to see whether he could win the presidential election. And since they didn't, they can always say that he could have. That's something nobody can know for certain, but to them, he is the one who could have done it. So they resent Kerry for getting in the way.

In general, I was saying that the less a politician is tested, the more people can idealize them and attribute to them great capacities. I do like Howard Dean a lot, and he was my favorite for a while in the primaries, so I know how they feel. Clark was also my favorite for a while. But as the saying goes, I dated them, "married" Kerry. :)

[elshiva]

5. I don't think that Dean would have won or

done any better than JK vote-wise. Actually, Dean may have gotten less votes for everyone in the media usually paints him as more liberal than Kerry.

[Pirate Smile]

2. Should I take this to be a warning to stay away from GD and GD:P?

I thought everyone was pretty happy with Dean as Chair. Why does that have to turn into bashing anyone or their supporters? I don't get it.

[JohnKleeb]

7. I am happy with Dean as chair, I am bashing the extreme assholes

who have an inferiority complex. I was hearing about some posts earlier where they and they alone say they are the grassroots and thats down right offensive to me.

[Pirate Smile]

8. I understand. I don't know why they have to keep alienating people.

[JohnKleeb]

12. I know sigh

I really didnt mean to come across as an angry person but sigh I just feel like the way that certain group acts is elitist and condescending to all of us.

[Pirate Smile]

13. I agree. I didn't read that thread. It looked like trouble.

:)

It seems very similar to the way Republicans acting like they are more patriotic - they love their country more. You feel like they are trying to take something away from you and keep it just for themselves - We are the real patriotic Americans.

The "We are the real grassroots" reminds me a lot of the Republican's patriotism monopoly - it is bullshit when the Republicans do it and it is bullshit if Democrats try to do it to other Democrats.

The irony is that Dean himself (who I certainly don't think would approve) had lines about how the flag doesn't just belong to Republicans or Ashcroft or Bush, it belongs to all of us and we are taking it back.

[TayTay]

6. Grassroots problems belong to everyone

I think Kerry is beginning to zero in on this as a possible solution to some of the Dems woes. Dems will get elected when we get more people into the process. We will get more people into the process when we make it about them and not about distant 'great leaders.' Dean is right when he says 'You have the Power' but that has to become more than a platitiude.

The Rethugs have made it a part of their policy to convince people that no action can ever be taken that will result in change. Oh you can rail against the 'liberal elites' but they are omnipresent and unchangeable. (Tell me this isn't a recipe for a fall later on. It is completly unsustainable as a political philosophy, but this is not yet that day.) Grassroots action, from the progressive churches (including evangelicals) to unions to average Janes and Joes is the absolute future of the Dems. We have to become relevent to average Americans. That is, afterall, what the fight is about.

[ginnyinWI]

10. yes, people want to have a voice,

especially when life and death are at stake, as well as financial stability, and their ablilty to even afford to go to the doctor. More and more people are going to make the effort.

I think both sides have their share of fringe loonies, and we must put up ours by listening and respecting them too. But the majority of Dems are in the center and are sensible and practical. And I think Howard Dean is more centrist, sensible and practical than a lot of people think, especially the repubs who are shouting with joy over his chairing the DNC, because they think it signals the end of the party. We'll see who laughs last! They won't know what hit them. He's a smart man who knows how to be a good executive, organize, and raise money. Those are exactly the qualifications of the job he just took.

[blm]

9. So...SAY SO in your replies to them. You give their statements credibilty

whenever you fail to reply with your EXACT FEELINGS.

Take 'em to the mat with the truth.

[JohnKleeb]

11. blm I am on nearly permanet exile from the GDs

I dont mean to sound angry and bitter but I think its absurd that they think they and only they are the grassroots.