Are science fiction plots becoming too complex even for loyal fans?

[flaminbats]

Take SG1..you have Jaffa. Jaffa are humans with baby snaky things who rebelled against the Goa'uld, humans who have adult bad snaky things inside. The Tok'ra are humans with good snaky things who don't approve of the parasitic nature of the Goa'uld. hmmm..:eyes:

Take Star Trek..with five series, 10 maybe 11 movies by the end of this year. I loved the original Star Trek series, but the movies were only for dedicated fans! I loved TNG, but rarely watched DS9. Whenever I watched DS 9, Voyager, or Enterprise..it rarely made sense! To completely understand Star Trek and how each series was connected into a single history requires a BA. To understand the plot histories of SG1, Atlantis, both BSG series, Star Trek, and Doctor Who requires a Master's degree.

Is science fiction for different political groups, only true television cult members, or all who might occasionally watch? Should any television show become as complex or detached as many comic strips? What happens to these plots when the Doctor makes Starbuck his assistant, Captain Carter brings Boomer through the Stargate, O'neill is called a real Macgyer by Thor, the Tripods have secretly capped Joel and Mike in MSTK 3000, the Star Trek IV crew meets Adama I in Galactica 1980, Avon dies when saving Rimmer's hologram, or the 20th century shuttle with a frozen Buck Rogers crashes into the Heart of Gold before the meaning of life, the universe, and everything is revealed?

[YankeyMCC]

1. Not sure I'm following your question

But then it's a little early in the AM.

Good science fiction, as any good story, should be approachable by any passing, interested and intelligent viewer or reader.

If I understand your question at all I think you have a point about Star Trek. In any genre and perhaps especially in science fiction there are standard fare, common tricks and devices that devotees like - comfort food for the mind so to speak. Star Trek has made this literary "comfort food" a main stay of the viewer's diet and that makes it harder for a passing viewer to pick it up and enjoy it right away.

I think shows like the new BSG, and MSK3T (I never watched Red Dwarf so I can't comment on that one) raise the bar and don't rely on the standard comfort food of the genre (although there is some in healthy measure) , except MSK3T which uses it for fun, and can easily capture passing viewers.

I dont' watch SG1 so I'm not sure about that one either, although I have my suspicions that it is going down the Star Trek road (and I'm a star trek fan, but I recognize the limitations, I agree it's like a comic book in a way with it's own sort of cult following).

[Ready4Change]

2. Different kinds of shows.

Different viewers want different kinds of shows.

Some people want a continuing experience/storyline. Some just want an hours light entertainment. Some are interested enough in a genre to focus on longer story lines within that genre, and prefer lighter fare outside of it.

[flaminbats]

3. How close to reality should a storyline be?

Is science fiction based on fictional laws of science, on proved scientific concepts, or scientific theory which might be real?

The SG1 wormhole is much like the Tardis in Doctor Who. The outside appears to be a small metal ring, but the inside is a hyperspatial tunnel connecting many spatial dimensions within a single dimension of time. How should science fiction differ from fiction based on magic and myths?

[Ready4Change]

4. Not even the sky is the limit with Science Fiction

One of the things I love about the genre is that it is limitless. Generally, the science part comes from the story being based, at least in part, on some science theory of what is possible, but perhaps not fully proven yet, or perhaps not yet witnessed by humans. Black holes, nano-technology, self aware machines, alien life forms, time travel paradoxes, and more, all are open game. It can be based on well accepted science theories, and is then often called "Hard" science fiction.

Fiction based on magic or myth, to my mind, fits into the Fantasy genre. Sword weilding heros fighting dragons and evil wizards, ect...

There can be some fun in mixing genres. Lucas had that for a while with Star Wars and the Force, mixing the science fiction of spaceships and blasters, with the mystical powers of the Force. Then he had to bring up that midi-clorian stuff. Took a lot of the romance out of it, imho.

Then again, I'm not earning millions making movies, so what do I know. :)

[YankeyMCC]

5. Humans

If the story is about human relationships (even if you use alien characters) and the trials and questions and issues humans have to deal with today, yesterday, 1000 years ago, 1000 years in the future - then you have a good story.

Good science fiction IMHO is based on reasonable extrapolation of current science and a good imagination to keep the "inventions" consistent and interesting. And these new extrapolations and inventions should create situations to highlight particular human issues. It shouldn't just be a show case for whiz bang toys.

Fantasy has less grounding and to me usually becomes less interesting because of that. If there's magic then anything can happen. Of course sometimes it is done well, a clear and consistent foundation is built - ala LoTR and then again you get back to a good "character driven" story. A "human" story (even though many of the characters are actually of different races you can relate to them on a human level.)

Now of course there's time to have fun with the "whiz bang" toys but that's a different sort of entertainment to my mind and it really doesn't matter how reality based it is.

I love the new BSG because it is character driven and it is telling a compelling human story using a Science Fiction setting to highlight the aspects they want to examine and create unique and interesting tensions and situations for humans to deal with.

That's why I loved Farscape even with it's more fanciful setting it was still a very "human" story.

[flaminbats]

6. Do you believe we can change the course of time?

IMO what happens in the present has been determined by an endless string of causes unleashing an endless string of effects. I view the universe as an infinate domino effect, every action we shall take has been caused by events of the past.

Time cannot be changed if it is merely another component of this universal domino effect. But in science fiction history can be changed, alternative realities can exist, and the supernatural is just another part of nature.

[YankeyMCC]

7. I sometimes enjoy alternate time/universe

stories but again these are just literary/story devices. I liked Quantum Leap because of the very human stories. Sliders sometimes did a good job too.

I don't "believe" one way or the other about time travel. Current understanding (at least my understanding) of the science of time (so to speak) is that time travel, affecting things in the past, is impractical for any civilization at least below the level of galaxy spanning and with the ability to manipulate starts and black hole type masses.

But if I want to take an imagination trip and put myself suddenly in the past or alternate universe I would just conduct myself the same as I conduct myself in the present. There's real no way to know if you can change the past or not, my very basic laymen understanding of quantum physics seems to imply to me that changing the past would simply lead to another quantum state (alt universe?) and the probability distribution would be such that things would tend to stay close to what we know today, so it would be difficult to change anything significant.

[Salviati]

10. IMO there are two ways to write a consistant time travel story...

One, the more elegent, but less useful method is like in 12 Monkeys, time travel can exist, but only to fufill the past that has already taken place

The other I think about more as an extention of the many worlds theory, and time traveling is merely backing up along the branching tree of timelines, and going up another one. Of course in this method, you can never be quite sure that you can get back to the same timeline you left, and if you return to a timeline that you never went back in time from, you're going to run in to the copy of yourself that belongs there. Wackyness ensues. This seems to be like the time travel in the most recent episodes of SG-1. As far as I can figure, they've now got 3 time machines in that timeline now. The one from the original timeline, the one from the geeky Sam and Danial timeline, and the one from the new timeline. Hopefully they'll just put that plot device out to pasture...

[NewHampshireDem]

8. Yes?

I'm not too certain about the 'loyal fans' part of your question, but I agree with the complexity issue. My dad is a fan of Babylon 5 (is that even on anymore except in re-runs?) and Stargate. Therefore, I am occassionally subjected to both shows. I like sci-fi, so the issue is not the genre, but, as you suggest, the plots. I have found it impossible to have even the faintest idea about what is going on when I watch either of those shows!

IMHO, well-written shows, unless specifically serialized in nature like 24 allow the casual viewer to dip in and still follow the plot of the episode while at the same time maintaining a larger story arc. The first couple of seasons of both X-Files and Voyager where like that, as was the entire run of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Furthermore, a good show--like Lost or any of the aforementioned examples--will make you feel like you want to go back and watch the earlier episodes, not make you feel like you have to go back and watch them.

That fear of frustration with being totally lost if you miss an episode is what drove me away from X-Files and has kept me away from Battlestar Galatica.

[Ravenseye]

9. No, not for loyal fans

I admit that if someone were to flip on Stargate SG-1 and had never seen an episode before there'd be a 50/50 chance that it'd be an episode that would just be way too confusing to them. If though we address the original question as being too complex for loyal fans, then I have to say no.

Stargate SG-1 may not be everyones favorite show, and it does have an ongoing story so there are things to remmeber, but it's not exactly complex. I could explain the basic plot and important elements within 2-3 paragraphs and they'd be able to watch the show and get into it if they like that sort of thing.

Still loyal is key. If you're loyal you watch most episodes. If you watch most episdoes of Stargate SG-1, Stargate Atlantis, Battlestar Galactica, Star Trek Anywhichship...you should be able to follow them if you have a decent memory retention.

If you just grab some random show though and you don't normally watch it, yeah any of those and more can be confusing.

The thing is that if you take a good show, it has to have certain base human character elements and interactions. It has to be enjoyable. Then the question is, do you build on continuity, or ignore it. If you do the same thing over and over and over again and nothing changes, well people might drift or they might not, but one thing that many people, including me, like is an overarching story progression.

If Stargate SG-1 never changed from the first season and each week they went through the stargate to check out a new world, meet the locals, get into a new adventure, maybe fight the same gould as always, maybe not, then come back...well I probably would have drifted from it by now. They still have those episodes, and they're good, but you need development in a long series. Stargate is entering it's 9th season this summer. That's a sci-fi record I think.

Sure some episode where they talk to Daniel about something that happened while he was Ascended, making mention of Jonas Quinn and the Naquadria powered Hyperdrive on the X-302, and how it can combat Anubis like that way they did when they defeated Apophis, without the help of the Tokra this time. While Carter tries to get her Father to help them with their stolen Gould Mothership, and Tealc is gone to get help from the Jaffa that rebeled against Baal. Meanwhile O'Neil is trying to contact Thor so the Asgard can send them the plans of the weapon designed by the Ancients, which can help them fight the replicators....yeah that might come off as confusing if you dont' follow the show....

but it's more interseting in year 9 than....

The team heads through the stargate AGAIN, Daniel hopes to find traces of his kidnapped wife, but instead they find a pastoral people living in someplace that looks remarkably like British Columbia (like every planet). and they go home....repeat...