Excuse me, but it's rant time

[Book Lover]

I am beyond fed up with nearly everybody on GD, LBN, etc today. "We can't *possibly* work on more than one thing at a time! Stand up for something?! It'll cost us *votes*" Well, the people who give a shit about "under god" in the pledge aren't the ones voting dem anyway, and they never will. Oh wait, except for the ones here on DU.

I am tired and angry. It's pissing me off this time in a way it hadn't before. You really get to know who your friends are...

:shakes fist:

[beam me up scottie]

1. I'm right there with you.

One of our good "friends" in this group thinks it's a "bullshit issue".

Remember my rant about the whiny christians crying about where they sit on the bus?

Issues like this are what I was thinking about when I wrote it.

Fair weather friends are worse than enemies.

[Az]

2. Real friends speak their mind

The very idea behind our nation and the democratic party is that we have many ideas, many ways of thinking. There are going to be many people that typically agree with us that disagree on issues as well.

Its a complex battle field before us. We each want to move in the same general direction. But how to get there and the paths we take may seem to take different priorities to different people. The only thing we can do is try to explain the sense of our paths to each other and stand by our friends even if they do not take the same path.

[beam me up scottie]

4. I have no problem with friends who disagree with me.

Matter of fact, those are usually the best kind.

I do have a problem with "friends" who will happily toss my rights out the window.

I didn't abandon my GLBT friends when people tried to say they were going to cost us the election, and I never will.

The day I abandon minorities because their cause happens to be unpopular is the day I join the freepers.

[defiant1]

7. I'm somewhat new, and not as hip to the lingo....

What does GLBT stand for?

[Az]

8. No worries, ask questions

Its how we learn things.

GLBT = Gay Lesbian Bi Transgender.

[defiant1]

9. Eye see....

I thought it stood for God-Loving Bible Thumpers.

:shrug:

[Az]

3. Frustrating indeed

Classic psych experiment. Take a bunch of rats in a cage. Pass an electric charge through the cage at a regular interval. After a while the stress caused by an external source (the electrical charge) causes the rats to turn on each other.

The agonizing decline of the Democratic party and progressive ideology has provided the stress. The continuing disintegration of our nation has provided additional stress. We can choose to turn on each other or struggle to find a new way to lead this nation back to a progressive direction.

[Book Lover]

14. We're certainly doing that today in GD

Tearing at each other, I mean.

[onager]

5. Don't get me started...

That Pledge thread hit my Hot Button because I get EXACTLY THE SAME ARGUMENTS from an atheist co-worker.

The funny part? He's a fairly right-wing Republican.

He even uses the same phrases I saw in that thread! "Bullshit issue." "Long-established custom, so just get over it." Etc.

For such a trivial, bullshit issue, some people sure wrote long-winded rants crying about the decision.

Oh, and someone seemed to be hinting that Newdow is a right-wing plant because he "always files these bullshit lawsuits just before elections." I think that was the phrasing. Close, anyway.

That was about Newdow suing to stop Bush from saying "so help me God" as part of the presidential oath. Which is NOT in the Constitution, so Newdow is on solid legal ground.

I'd say solid moral ground as well, since a President re-writing the Constitution to salute his personal Deity implies that he might not uphold the rights of those citizens who don't share his beliefs.

I know, I'm just a nitpicky atheist grump...G-r-r-r-r...

[Book Lover]

15. I know a few hard libertarians

who would support us on this issue if the party leadership took a stand! And that's also something bugging me - folks are talking about how the "mushy middle" needs to hear how we all love god and the pledge - what horseshit (and I'm insulting horses). Non-party-aligned people come in all stripes, but so many here have bought this idea that those who don't party align are vague in their political thoughts.

[toddaa]

18. I'm a HARD libertarian

Which means I've butted heads with some of the dumber members of DU who cannot distinguish between right wing LPers and left wing anarcho-socialists, such as myself. I have many problems with the LP, but I find it absurd that certain elements of the progressive community refuse to have anything to do with right libertarians, even though they would be surprised how many issues they would be in agreement on. Take the war in Iraq. One of the most prominent antiwar web sites on the Internet is run by a libertarian. It's insane that because we have disagreements with their economic stances, we ignore the rest of their political beliefs wholesale. The whole point of building a coalition on certain political issues is to REACH A MAJORITY. Duh.

[Book Lover]

21. Very nice to meet you

And I have found the *exact* same thing with antiwar.com. It's the best newslink site around for our purposes, but I've had some very liberal/progressive people roll their eyes because Raimondo runs it. Yet these same people will say how amazed they are that they agree with Pat Buchanan's antiwar stance... It is the "two-party system" canard that people hold onto like a lifesaver.

[salvorhardin]

22. Exactly!

The 'two party' canard and the tired old left-right political axis cliche (which has really been useful since it was coined during the French Revolution) are killing us. As ideas they've become tools of the right to divide people.

It's amazing too, because you see Ron Paul's anti-war essays posted here all the time and DUers don't seem to get that alliances can be formed with other parties.

[beam me up scottie]

25. Toddaa, your rant on that thread was frame-worthy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1780225&mesg_id=1781438

I'm so proud of everybody in our group and the others who stood up for our rights.

[salvorhardin]

6. Just chiminig in to show my support

and say that I totally agree. That one thread depressed me all day. The establishment clause is there for a reason and I don't consider 1st amendment issues "fringe". Newdow may very well be a political grandstander but that doesn't change the importance of that decision.

So now there is popular sentiment that we need to stop pushing for GLBT rights, and that first amendment issues are fringe issues. I suppose tossing out the disabled and the poor are next.

[Book Lover]

16. I wonder why some of these folks

don't just become repubs. All they want is to be part of the party in power, but they don't want to be "unpopular." Isn't that like kicking the nerdy kid in school so the popular kids will like you?

[toddaa]

10. Worship of the State

Making little Johnny and Sally swear allegiance to a flag is political idolatry. Explain to me how it is different from Hitler Youth, the Young Pioneers, or any other political indoctrination program put in place to invoke unwaivering devotion and worship of the State. Putting in "under God" makes it worse, but it can be argued that even without to controversial phrase, it's still State sponsered religion. God and Government are interchangeable when dealing with authoritarian political regimes and any regime requiring children to swear allegiance to it is authoritarian.

/end of rant

[FiveGoodMen]

11. Amen

(so to speak)

[Az]

12. The new phrase is ramen

May you be touched by his noodley appendage.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

17. NOODLY! No "E", you heathen! (nt)

[Az]

19. Feh, Eris is the true master. The noodly one is just one of her servants

FNorD!!

Hail Eris!

[EvolveOrConvolve]

26. Damn, I agree, and wish other people would see this aspect of the argument

I've explained to my eight year old son that he ISN'T required to recite the pledge, and he's stopped doing so. I've also tried to teach him that he isn't under any obligation to swear fealty to any organization, that he is free to be his own person, as long as he strives to be a good person. He's been taught why it's bad to commit blind allegiance to any group and good to always always question (although it's not always pleasant to have him question me on things like homework, bedtimes, etc. :-) ).

We are essentially forcing our kids, through both authority and peer pressure, to swear oath to something of which they understand nothing. I believe that violates at least one of the ten commandments.

Great post, toddaa

[geniph]

13. I was at a Dem meeting in Seattle last night

I usually attend the legislative district meetings in my own district, which is in the suburbs south of Seattle. When we say the Pledge, I always leave the "under god" out. I can hear everyone around me saying it (except my husband, who also leaves it out). At the meeting last night in oh-my-dog-I-love-you-my-blue-city Seattle, I would estimate over half the room went silent at that point!

hahahahaha!

I personally settled this issue back in 1968, when I was in third grade. I got taken to the vice-principal's office because I refused to say the Pledge, because of the "under god." We argued for about an hour, and I finally won a compromise. I had to stand to show respect, but did not have to actually recite the Pledge.

Now, as an adult, I've kind of mellowed. I do say the Pledge - I actually am very fond of it, although I prefer the original version - but I don't think I've said the "under god" part since I was about six.

[BiggJawn]

20. Next they'll be telling Liberal gun owners to leave the tent...

"You're costing us VOTES!"

[beam me up scottie]

23. Excellent rant:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1780225&mesg_id=1785056

[beam me up scottie]

24. I, for one, am glad we have the DU version of morans

reminding us of what's REALLY important.

They love to hide behind the cause du jour and use it to show how "selfish" we are for thinking we should have rights.

So, when will it be convenient for us to ask for freedom from their gods?

Should we make an appointment?

Say, two weeks from when everything else is perfect?

Maybe we should just do it the reichwing way, we'll wait until the majority thinks it's time to give the minority equal rights.

Because that has worked so fucking well in the past.:sarcasm:

[Skinner]

27. Please see here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=263&topic_id=11115&mesg_id=11115