Interracial Dating---is it the race or culture?

[vaberella]

Actually, this is interesting. I'll start with the convoluted story. I was listening to a cover of Halo done by a youtuber on a piano---no vocals. It was beautiful. On the side I see something about Tyra and interracial dating. That story was about an Indian girl who falls in love and runs away and marries a Black muslim who's a hip hop fashion designer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQuqZ-1bhOU&feature=related


Then I saw another one about blasians and all that and here are some of the links:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXPTxpMp9qE

I found this interesting above because I do agree with the host. England has a huge multi-cultural (or interracial dating/marriage/procreating populations :rofl). Actually I found it so big that I found Black-Black dating to be a novelty. When you see a Black couple you're kind of like,"Wow...how did that happen." That being said this is to look at cultural things.

I realize in the US and Europe race is the big thing---or I should say colourism in many respects as well or black/white. I'm Haitian and what I've noticed in my family the problem is not race, it's nationality--in regards to the older generations and their influence on their adult children marriage partner or dating partner. If you are not Haitian---you basically don't have to apply for a position to marry. Haitians seem to look at people by nationality. American, Jamaican, Dominican, Puerto Rican, Cuban. And that's the issue. However, if you're Haitian and of Chinese descent (I've met my fair share and I happen to know someone writing about the Chinese diaspora in Haiti) or what some would call "White" but Haitian. You're just plain Haitian.


Our issues is mainly cultural and it's more like inter-cultural dating problems I seem to have. My mum only accepts others if they speak French, but if they speak Creole they move up the list and are then taken in as "one of us." I don't know about other Caribbeans or maybe Americans of African descent who dated Caribbeans---but I notice there's a major culture gap.


Actually there's even this weird hierarchy as well. If you don't marry a Haitian, you can marry Cuban (unmatched adoration of Castro in Haitians---especially of the older generation---my mum's generation which is baby boomers era in US or a little before). Dominicans---definitely a problem---it's a weird love/hate thing going on. But if anyone has a clue of Haitian/Dominican history you'll know why the hate is there and why marriage is a definitely a no or under major stress---to the point of divorce in many cases. Puerto Ricans---actually no problems. Jamaicans---it's weird, I've come to see some petty issues between the two, to be honest. Even Americans, in particular Black Americans----relationship with outsiders. This I would have to leave for another post; however I'm wondering if the black hierarchy I've seen touted in the US is a social construction made by the US and other nations have taken up or if this is just their own by product due to the colour hierarchy (seen at times) prevalent in Caribbean and South American nations.

I then had to take a step back and see if this was racism, when I initially saw this or some sort of it. I then on an offhand (because I'm moving there) looked at Korea's social structure. I noted the same thing. Actually many nations have it. Koreans tend to be very *pro-Korea* and the older generation are anti-non Korean marriage. Younger generation is very different or becoming so, but older--withing the same baby boomer period still think this way, a lot of the time. However, on a twist they do have racial issues. This is where Haiti differs from Korea. Color is not the problem since there are poor Whites. The ruling elite is mainly made up of the mulatte (excuse me if this is not PC---using creole terms), many of whom have Lebanese or Asian lineage.


In any event...my main reason for posting is that I'm just noting the difference that in Western countries the difference is seemingly racial. While in most other nations, it's not colour (although you'll find colourism), the issue is cultural. And the significant cultural divide is a mess.

[Number23]

1. I think the difference is that has really been no need to differentiate by culture

The Irish are the only example that I can think of of white Americans being treated even closely to what Americans of color have endured here.

The only fierce nationalism you'll see America is "American patriotism." There really doesn't seem to be very much need for Americans to mark themselves by their respective nationalities because the history of this country has always been steadied by a rock-solid foundation of the belief of white (European) superiority regardless of which white European it was, though there has always been the perceived EXTRA special superiority of the English. To be of French, German, Russian, English, Polish etc. heritage was always important to the individual and maybe even individual families, but really had no bearing upon their place in American society. At the days' end, they were still white.

Your post about the cultural hierarchy in Haiti is so interesting and it reminds me of the experiences I've had with Indians, who are also fiercely nationalistic. I have met and befriended so many Indians and no matter where they live, they usually tend to have such pride in their heritage and culture and the vast majority of them also marry other Indians. My youngest aunt married an Indian guy. Her first marriage of three (and counting.) I love her but :eyes:

He was the most lovely person. My grandparents ADORED him and so did I. His family was lovely and they would have given their lives for their son but they told my aunt under no uncertain terms that they did not support their marriage. When they got married anyway, it was so bittersweet. His parents more or less disowned him and they did not come to the wedding. I was about 15 at the time and even then, as hurt as I was for my then-uncle and for my aunt and as angry as I was at his family, in some way I understood exactly where they were coming from. It must be frustrating and a bit frightening to feel that your children may be turning their backs on the culture that you feel will protect them. I think that's why sooo many people and cultures put up these roadblocks, as a way of protection. But we all know that as the world keeps getting smaller these obstacles will just keep getting torn down.

[vaberella]

10. The Haitian Heirarchy system is very convoluted.

There's dynamics in it that is mainly related to economics. Race is extremely secondary to your economic situation.

[kwassa]

2. It is endlessly complicated, and all about the jet airplane.

Now that anyone can fly anywhere the world in less than a day ...

Borders are pretty much gone. Worldwide immigration is changing many places, particularly here in the US. Here in the suburbs of Washington D.C. is a giant and very active melting pot. Local schools have students from 90 nations or so, and that is the norm. One local high school that I am very familiar with, African-Americans are a minority of the black students. Most of the black students have parents from the Caribbean or Ethiopia.

so, the old polarity of black-and-white-in-America is confounded by people of many colors and cultures coming into the US. Interracial and intercultural dating is increasingly normal and common and not much to comment about. Each group has their own cultural rules, but they break down in a generation or so, because there is no way to maintain them in the face of mass pluralism and choice. And, change itself.

and several of us here are in interracial marriages, including me. You pointed out the multi-ethnic heritage in Haiti, multi-racial children are increasingly common in endless variations here.

at the same time, other places here are mired in sameness, the very poor areas, both in the city, or in stagnant rural cultures, or places that are economically depressed. They are also quite segregated.

[vaberella]

11. Yes, Haitians are a mixed people. To give an example:

Germany tried to take control of Haiti during the 1910s 20s. This is not counting the massive interracial relationships forced upon the people in Haiti during the time of slavery. The French form of slavery was slightly different in that in many cases marriages were actually advocated between slave owners and their slaves. Yeah, one of the rare ones. This happened in other cultures, but Haiti had one and hence when there was a break down this was one of things that lead to the successful Revolution. I don't think anyone in Haiti can say they're pure anything.

However, I do agree that when Haitians come to America and after a generation this old country mentality changes. However, with Haitians I seem to see a major push for the "other" to be enveloped into the culture. It's looked down upon if the children of such a match aren't in a way "wholly Haitian." The children need to speak creole and if they don't, it's almost like be prepared to be shunned and if not talked about. And this is irrespective of the generation. My little cousins who are 2nd and 3rd generation, who are of mixed background are like 100% Haitians.

[kwassa]

13. I think your issue is similar

to others from the Caribbean and South America. Regardless of racial background or mixture, they identify by nationality first. Many of Hispanic origin identify as that second. Race tends to come third.

I have to say that most Haitians I've met have very little visible mixed heritage; that was only in the small privileged class that ran the nation back in the old days.

and I like Caribbean music and have some compas and rara, I've seen Boukman Eksperyans in concert, have some Tabou Combo, though I am a greater fan of Kassav', from the French Antilles. They also sing in a creole that I can't possibly understand.

[vaberella]

17. That's not necesarily the case. I've asked my mum about that as well.

Actually most people don't believe my parents were mixed until they see the family pictures. What happens is that they look like other ethnic groups. I think people are set in the belief that mulattes fit a paticular "look" almost like the Shemar Moore style. Yet, if some were to look at Halle Berry, I never suspected her of being mixed and thought was Black. And we know there are others who look possibly like an entirely different ethnic group like Dwayne Johnson or Vin Diesel. For instance the colour variation between my mum and her brothers is extraordinary. One of my uncles was extremely dark skinned and most would never suspect his father was "white." While my mum's youngest brother is a polar opposite.

I think people are set in the way of what fits a stereotypical "mixed" look while reality says something else and definitely most Haitians have mixed lineage since the country has been continually taken over.

The key distinction of mulattes or the ruling class are always the "newbies" of money and most mullattes of power today are not of "Black and White" lineage (or it's very little). Now it's Haitian and some other Middle Eastern. Many of them are the "privileged" class now. I know way too many poor White Haitians and their children are regulars.

You should ask to see some of the Haitian's family pictures. It might give you another perspective. We're not shy about displaying them---they're littered everywhere. Also a thing to note is that there are, as I mentioned with my parents mixed kids marrying one another. Genetics give you different feedbacks.

[Kind of Blue]

3. I think in this country, it is all of the above.

And over the years, the nuances in between have left me dizzy. So I can't say it's either/or, but depends on who I've met along the way and their personal feelings on the matter shaped by their life's experience, their culture, and the myriad of cultures at large.

-I had a Afghani girlfriend who an African friend, a Muslim like she adored her. "NO, I can never marry him," she said. "He's Blaaahk," as if it were a stain. She was in turn, in love with a blond and blue co-worker who was not interested in her. But turns around within a few months and marries an incredibly dark Afghani, sporting the thickest biggest 'fro I've seen since I was a child in the '70s. I don't know what to make of it.

-I had a Greek male friend who, to my astonishment, wanted more but told me, "Our relationship can go no further if you do not accept Greece as the cradle of Civilization," after many heated arguments that Africa is the cradle of Greek civilization.

-I once knew a group of the nicest Vietnamese/African-Americans mix young people who caught hell in Vietnam after the war. They were so happy to form their own community. I mean being able to walk around freely without hostile stares and constant discrimination was all they hoped for and got when they came to the U.S. I wonder how they're faring now.

-I worked with a Vietnamese woman, married to a White male, has 2 daughters. She said she'd really be upset if her girls did not date or marry White men. No Asian men for her girls, they just weren't good enough! BTW, African-American men were also cool to date or marry. For her, the men just have to be American. Asian or Asian American need not apply.

-I dated at the time who I thought was a wonderful African-American man. He revealed to me that because I have freckles and my hair color is reddish, I must not be All African, so I was okay to introduce to his family. He didn't understand that this was not a compliment.

-My husband and I know a Vietnamese American couple. The wife is gorgeous and her strong Chinese ancestry is evident in her appearance. He adores her but can't stand her at the same time because he thinks she's better than him because of her strong Chinese blood. She could care less because they're both Vietnamese. They're in therapy now.

-I dated an Egyptian whose family was so gracious to me and eagerly pushed for marriage. I was acceptable only because I was from Africa, too. But he better not bring home any girls who are descendants of African-Americans.

I can really carry this list to at least 10 more examples of the variety of people's feelings. But as my husband sums it up, "You like what you like."

Here's an interesting NPR segment from a few weeks ago

"Overall, interracial marriages are becoming more common in America, according to recent U.S. Census data. But those numbers mainly reflect the increase in black-white marriages. The same data show that since the 1990s, fewer American-born children in Asian and Latino families are marrying outside their ethnic group.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103439900

[Number23]

4. Interesting post. As Kwassa mentioned, many here in AAIG are in interracial marriages

And I think that inter-cultural/racial relationships do seem more commonplace now. But your comment about the Egyptian family is really interesting.

I've had the complete opposite experience of what your friend had; North African men loved me but men from other parts of Africa just smiled and nodded as they went their way. I've always thought that whole "Africans don't like African-Americans" thing was overblown and I still do. But maybe I should consider that there is some truth to it as I keep hearing it over and over again including in your post.

[Kind of Blue]

5. "Africans don't like African-Americans..."

That baffles me, as well. I mean, as a child in the late '60s early '70s, I remember tons of parties of my parents that were a wonderful mix of Africans - North and Sub-Saharan - and African-Americans. If memory serves me correct, and I'm sure it does, most of the A-As were men and women married or who's girlfriends/boyfriends were Africans. So I've always thought we got along. Maybe over the years that's changed. I don't know, it really hasn't been in my sphere of reference lately.

I think I'm a little confused by what you should consider there may be some truth to in my post. I'm wondering if you're referring to the North African men.

[Number23]

6. Sorry, that's right. Your comment about North African men.

And how you mentioned that particular family didn't want to be mixed with African-Americans.

If memory serves me correct, and I'm sure it does, most of the A-As were men and women married or who's girlfriends/boyfriends were Africans.

That's always been my understanding and experience as well. My mom has had friends from everywhere and has adopted a girl from Sierra Leone whose mother died of AIDS. Several members of my new sister's family live close to my mother and they absolutely adore her and are nothing but loving to my mother, me and our family. That child, who is now 15, is absolutely amazing. I've got big plans for her. If I have my way, she'll be following in the footsteps of Sister Sirleaf of Liberia in about 25 years. :)

[Kind of Blue]

7. Got it. Thanks!

I remember something else related that also stunned me. I don't know if you remember actor Lou Gossett played Anwar Sadat. I clearly remember his wife on, I think it was 60Minutes, saying she was not pleased with the choice because Anwar was not Black. Ha! And I think the movie was banned in Egypt because an African-American actor was chosen. Excuse me lady, I thought at the time, your husband's mother was Sudanese and it seems Sadat spent most of his life in denial. How is denial even possible when you clearly have a mighty dose of sub sarahan in your blood?

It was just so disheartening. But later on, she praised Gossett. Nowhere on the internet could I find her statement of total dissatisfaction. I'll never forget it because she said it with the same disdain as her discussion about Israeli occupied Palestine.

But what an incredible Mom you have! What a wonderful opportunity for the young girl and that's some big plan you have for her! Well, I'm glad she's going to learn to shoot for the moon from you :thumbsup:

[vaberella]

9. See post. # 8. n/t

[bliss_eternal]

14. There was this African guy in college...

...I swear he was stalking me (not literally), but everytime I looked up--there he was offering me gum, or trying to buy me a drink, take me to lunch or whatever.

My problem with him was the way he was so overt and aggressive. Kind of dude that was insistent if you said, "no."
...then he'd grab my arm, like he was going to drag me with him, saying,"...come on--let's go."

Um...I said, no. Let me go, before I have to kick you in the crotch.


(sigh)

[vaberella]

8. Thanks for the post.

In regards to your relationship with an African guy---one person came up to me and asked me where I was from. When I said America they were like originally. I said I was born in Haiti. Then she said to me..."Oh you're of the slave race." I said, "Yup, we're alive and well thank you."

[Kind of Blue]

12. I'm too disgusted for words.

And don't know if I would have such a masterful response. Well, played!

[bliss_eternal]

15. Hi vabarella...

...just spoke with you yesterday in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=258x6165

and just realized you've been contributing to our group (duh, bliss).
Thanks so much for your contributions and Welcome to our forum!

:hi::party::toast::bounce:

[vaberella]

16. Hiya..Thanks for the welcome. Yeah. This section is great. I plan on posting here more. n/t