I'm thinking of leaving my coven/school (warning: a bit long)

[MorningGlow]

I don't know what to do about this--I'm having severe issues with my coven. I've been with my elder and my sisters for nearly 15 years, but lately I've been feeling...not welcome.

The story is long, convoluted, and basically boring, but in a nutshell (as you may have read in other posts of mine lately), my best friend of 30 years and also my coven sister is going through counseling with our elder. She (my best friend) got a divorce a couple of years ago and started counseling then; now she's addressing other issues in her life in her sessions, which apparently include me--that she feels I haven't been a good friend to her over the years, etc.

We attend class at my school together--we were the small, "elite" class for a time, and the four directions of the school--my best friend, our elder, our elder's half sister, and I--covering "uncharted territory" in our lessons. It was great. Now, however, that is over, mainly because our elder is having her own issues with her half sister. Lately the class has been filled with lots of other people, mainly newbies (it varies from class to class), and there is no talk of deeper issues. I'm back to taking notes on some more elementary subjects.

Adding to the problems, according to rumor, is that I don't "participate" enough. I will admit that I tend to spend more time with my little one than attending sabbats and special Saturday afternoon seminars. Now that MG Jr. is nearly 4, I am better able to get out and about, and I have made an effort to attend events lately, but apparently it's too little too late.

Soooo...I go to class each week but don't want to, because the reception from my best friend and my elder is amiable on the surface, but decidedly frosty underneath. Our fourth is MIA because she can't stand all the crap. I'm not far behind.

The reason I'm having a hard time with this is because these people are supposed to be my second family. They were the people I was going to rely on when I had no-one else left in my life (I'm the youngest in my "real" family by many years). If I leave, I will have jettisoned that future.

Egad, it feels like I'm contemplating divorce. And it is, of a sort. I don't know what to do. I'm waiting for a really strong sign, but I haven't gotten one yet. I'm really, really upset.

Thanks for listening. :(

[Dora]

1. I'm sorry.

Can you call a meeting, either with each friend or as a group? I don't know - perhaps a direct expression of your feelings, and an airing of theirs, is in order. I think if this were a divorce, you would be discussing it with your partner, no?

It is a very sore place to be dwelling in :hug: I wish for love to fill the space between you and your friends.

[MorningGlow]

10. I've brought that up several times

to no avail. Both my best friend and our elder are the type who do NOT like to "air out" everything face to face. My friend prefers to ignore something till it goes away (that has ALWAYS bugged me about her--for all 30 years I've known her), and our elder has said, just recently, "I don't like confrontation." Unfortunately, she labels talking openly and honestly about something as "confrontation". (Likely she doesn't want to talk about certain things because she is afraid that she's going to have to face something less-than-desirable about her own self.)

Thanks for the :hug:, Dora. I appreciate it so much.

[Dora]

14. Oh, that's unfortunate.

I hope that a clear answer comes to you soon, as well as a supportive network of understanding friends.

:grouphug:

[MorningGlow]

25. Thank you!

:hug:

[Matariki]

2. Hey MorningGlow

here's my .02 on it, for what it's worth.

15 years is a long, long time to remain in 'the student' role. I think sometimes people get stuck in 'the teacher' role and don't want to let people move on. At some point you have to claim your own authority and sometimes that means breaking away from a group.

What would happen if you wanted to take a sort of 'leave of absence' for a while? Would your coven support that? Would they still treat you as family?

It's funny, I was just having a conversation with my partner about the length of time occult groups 'should' last. We were discussing how Wiccans we know sort of expect their group to have a 'shelf life' and spin off into other groups, and how that seemed like a good thing. (We have a ceremonial magick temple and end up discussing topics like this a lot).

[MorningGlow]

11. That's a very good point, Kineta.

I also have often wondered how long this coven's shelf life can last and if it's normal to get restless.

On my way home from class last night, I started formulating a request for a break, which lots of people have done, and even I did quite a few years ago when money was tight and I was under a lot of stress (new house, just moved in with future DH, etc.) Back then, it was totally understandable, because it was "outside forces" affecting me.

Now, however, it would seem quite plain that it's the vibe of the school itself that's getting to me (nothing else is stressful in my life--heck, nothing else is IN my life right now), and a request for time off would inspire lots of trash-talking behind my back, assumptions about how I feel and think without asking me about it, and likely a closed door when/if I decided I was ready to come back.

It's funny...I am not really sure yet whether a break would help or not, or if I should just quit outright. Plus (and okay I know this is really a terrible way to think but bear with me because it's there) I worry that my elder will say that I'm not with the school because I'm not ready to ascend like they are. Like I said, I know, I know... :eyes: ...but I can really envision her saying that. (She'd be wrong, of course!)

[I Have A Dream]

15. MG, I responded several times below. However, after reading...

what you've written here, this seems to be a really toxic environment that they refuse to try to correct. Personally, I think that you have more light than they do at this point. Sensitive people, which you seem to be one of, are really affected by negative emotion that can't be processed. I, myself, can almost feel the stress that you're feeling. :scared:

Bottom line: Don't let them drag you down with them. :(

:hug:

[MorningGlow]

26. It's funny, isn't it

As I posted somewhere in here, my elder is all about ascending with the Shift, and I feel perfectly ready, yet I get the impression that she thinks otherwise because I don't do the things that everyone else in the school does. (So much for independent thought/finding one's own path.) I may need to follow my own path that diverges sharply from the folks in my coven, and perhaps the Shift is precipitating that. But you're right--the negativity is just...ick. :(

[Matariki]

37. You know, the more you write about this, the more cultish it's sounding

For instance you mentioned taking a break once because of money. Are you paying a lot of money for classes or to belong to the group? A certain amount of dues is normal for groups like this, but if they are excessive it can point to problems.

Also you keep mentioning some sort of 'group ascension'. You know it's a common cult technique to foster the idea that while you are in the group you are in some sort of state of 'specialness', but outside the group you're not.

I don't want to offend you, but I'm not getting very good feelings about that group. It's reminding me quite a bit of a very cult like situation a friend of mine was in, coincidently also for 15 years. It took a lot of effort for him to get out of it, including moving to another state. He refers to it as 'a divorce', in fact. I actually had to assist him on a magical level because after he left they were throwing things at him to make his life difficult and get him back.

[Matariki]

39. ps - a question about the struggle you're feeling

You are clearly having a difficult time with this decision. How much do you feel is coming from a genuine place within yourself? For instance giving up, at least temporarily, group ritual? And how much do you think is coming externally from the group or your 'elder'?

Do they have a tendency to badmouth people who leave the group? Do they make comments that indicate that people won't do well spiritually (not 'ascend') if they leave the group?

[MorningGlow]

42. To answer both your posts in one...

I know the group sounds cultish. It's not, but it sure can sound that way, huh? (And I do so very much appreciate your concern about it! :hug: )

Money: We pay one low fee per class and one slightly higher fee per seminar, and the prices haven't gone up since the school has been in existence--nearly 15 years. My elder went through a great deal of soul searching before she decided to charge (we in the first group didn't pay for the first year)--she ended up deciding to charge a nominal fee for classes because this is her livelihood and a school. We aren't held to fees and while she would like us to make up classes we miss, we're not required to, to "make sure" she has the money in her pocket or anything. Anyone who is having financial trouble but still wants to attend class can make special arrangements so they can keep going. I took my break years ago not just because of the money but because of all the things going on in my life at the time. (But, for perspective, we were PAINFULLY broke at the time.)

The "group ascension": That's my elder referencing the Shift. It's one of the things I disagree with her about, in fact. I feel that if people are vibrating in sync with the new world we're entering, with love in our hearts, we'll be fine. But she keeps saying "we're not ready, we're not ready" (to her credit, including herself in the "we"). The more she talks about it, the more she sounds like the fundie preachers waiting for the rapture. I have debated this point with her on several occasions. Apparently she thinks we aren't being mindful enough of what we need to do, including meditating more. I do agree that I should meditate more, but I don't have such a negative view of our progress as she does.

My delayed decision: You're right; this is difficult for me. I don't really know how much is coming from within me, as an urge to move on, or from the treatment I've been getting when I attend class. :shrug: That's what I'm trying to figure out now, and that's why I haven't announced to my elder that I am leaving. As I mentioned somewhere else on this thread, I am very concerned that the badmouthing will start if I do leave (trash talk? OHHHH yeah that happens!), but it's not enough to keep me from leaving if that is the correct thing to do.

Mainly I'm trying to figure out if my path of spiritual growth now diverges with this group or if I'm supposed to stay there and ride out this current storm. I really don't know what is correct yet.

[Matariki]

45. Well, good luck to you MorningGlow. I'm sure you'll work it out.

I'm glad to hear you're not in a situation like my friend was in. It was *very* difficult for him to extricate himself.

I did a lot of research into 'cults' at the time, trying to help him. I don't mean it was a cult in the sense of the Moonies or something. It was, on the surface, a legitimate occult group and teaching order with a supposedly respectable lineage. But this group existed primarily (exclusively) for the benefit of 'the teacher'. Both economically and to feed his ego and need to feel important. He absolutely couldn't stand any personal criticism or questioning of his ideas or 'authority' on any topic. And also, it was his means of support. That and counseling, with most or all his 'clients' coming from his small pool of students. He also required a great deal of domestic support from his students, cleaning, child care and so forth. All these things gave him a great deal of motivation to not let students leave. When he found someone willing to stick around, he did all he could to make them feel like they weren't progressing due to their own ineptitude. I'd seen him answer legitimate questions from students of 8 years or more with a dismissive 'your ego is out of balance.' When someone left the group, they would totally badmouth the person, saying they were 'messed up', suicidal, not spiritually strong enough for the work, etc. The result on my friend, and others in the group, was that he internalized this criticism. Making him feel that leaving the group would mean he was weak, or somehow unworthy.

Anyhoo - you know, prayer and divination are your friends in a situation like this. I'm sure you will find the right answer for you.

Hugs back at you :-)

[MorningGlow]

47. Thanks so much, Kineta

It's so kind of you to check up on me about the whole cult thing! :hug: I also have known people trapped in a cult, and it is truly hell on earth. Conversely, just consider my group a bunch of gossipmongers who trash-talk you if you aren't down with the clique--more high school than Jonestown. If you know what I mean! ;)

I will take your advice (and that of everyone who responded here) to help resolve this situation: meditation, consult guides, and wait. And you're right--my runes sure could use a dusting off, too! :)

[Matariki]

51. Hey! I added a bit to my post while you were responding.

I think there are degrees of 'cultishness', even in high school cliques! LOL.

I get angry when I think about that group my friend was in, so when I hear something that remotely sounds like it might be similar, I get a little enthusiastic with my warnings. Hope I didn't offend you.

[MorningGlow]

52. Hee--serendipitous!

Definitely no offense taken! No worries! I know my gang sounds weird from the "outside"--hell, they ARE weird! But not evil. :P

[MorningGlow]

53. Wow, that IS a nasty setup

I see what you mean now. How awful. Unfortunately, so many legitimate esoteric organizations start out with the best of intentions, and then the leader's ego blows up out of control and it all goes to hell. I will admit that my elder has a touch of the ol' ego lately, but light years away from that guy. Ick! Hope your friend is on a better path now!

[Matariki]

54. Yeah, he's getting better all the time. It's taken a while though

He moved to Denver and we talk regularly. Last few couple times we talked he sounded better than I'd ever heard him, very lucid on his life and path.

I was really in love with him and his 'teacher' made him break up with me because I wasn't part of their group. Can't say I wasn't resentful.

[MorningGlow]

56. Ouch. That's harsh.

I'm so sorry to hear that. :hug: And I can kind of relate--it seems our elder likes best the members of the school who don't have husbands. In my darker moments I find it creepy (even though she doesn't make people break up--yikers). Glad your friend is doing well.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

35. Put salt around you in a square for protection

and realize that if the others are trash talking about you, you don't have to worry about them "ascending" ahead of you! Release of judgement is one of the steps to take, I think, and it is a difficult one for many. Could be that you are ready to move on where they are not. If you feel that staying around isn't helping you along your path, by all means move on. I had a spiritual teacher for about 5 years, and then asked for release. I still felt I was on my path, and that names and forms were not important. Most important of all, I still felt I had protection from the spiritual hierarchy and guides-and I got confirmation of that via dreams. I obtained my second name, Haqqiqa, during this time. It means to seek truth and real experiences, basically. Inner guidance led me to be initiated in another Sufi Order and told me who my new teacher would be--and it has worked well. But basically I was on my own with my inner guide (again) for about 7 years.

[MorningGlow]

43. Salt is a beautiful thing!

My shield is definitely up, I can tell you that! And as I just answered Kineta upthread, my elder's view of who will or will not ascend is something I disagree with. Sometimes I feel it's my ego talking when I think I'd ascend better and easier if I weren't aligned with this coven/school (but then again, I am a survivor of the Catholic faith, and that "I'm not worthy" and ego thing comes back like a boomerang from time to time! :) )

I am waiting to see if my spiritual path is starting to diverge from my group to such an extent that I'm being pried away from the coven. If that is the case, I'll be fine with it. I have my guides, I have my knowledge, I have my connection to the divine. Perhaps, as you said happened with you, I'll gain new insights on my own, by communing with my guides while I'm alone. That's intriguing to me. Before my elder started her organization, I was seeking on my own and had some amazing experiences along the lines of shamanism. I could easily do that again.

[rosesaylavee]

3. Sending some white light and a hug, MG

Just my two cents, they don't seem to be as caring about your needs as you are about theirs.

Why wouldn't they consider MG Jr. and the time you need to spend with him? If your sister is having issues concerning you, why is she not directing her questions/concerns to you? And why, is your elder taking sides rather than trying to help both sides (yours and hers) meet in compromise? Doesn't sound fair to me.

:hug:

[MorningGlow]

12. Thanks, RSL

:hug:

For people who aren't supposed to be judgmental, there's a lot of judging going on, on a regular basis, I must admit.

It is VERY ironic about MG Jr., because my elder has two sons, and she has said over and over and OVER again throughout the years, "My family comes first. Don't ever ask me to do something that would compromise my time with my husband and sons, because I will say no. They come first. They come first." Blah blah blah... Now that she's got an empty nest, her tune has changed quite a bit, and her long-term memory has suffered. Or something.

As I said upthread just now, both my friend and my elder are the type who don't like to talk about anything openly. And I am the exact opposite--you got a problem, you bring it up with ME first--preferably ONLY me--and we'll talk about it and work it out. But I can't get through to these two.

I don't hate these people, mind, I'm just frustrated. I do love them dearly--just, like family, some traits of their can be mighty annoying. Unfortunately, the "feet of clay" our elder has is that she talks ABOUT people to other folks in the school. A lot. Like, all the time. And when she makes a decision about someone, you can't convince her otherwise. I suspect I'm on the "persona non grata" list and have been for a while, but it was my friend's stories about me in her therapy sessions (one-sided, yes) that pushed my elder over the edge with her opinion about me.

I think that's why I'm considering bailing. I mean, how do you fight city hall? :shrug:

[Matariki]

41. Does she talk about things she's learned about others in therapy?

That would be VERY unethical. In fact gossip in general coming from someone who is a therapist - a position that requires a great deal of trust - doesn't speak well about her at all.

[MorningGlow]

44. Alas, yes she does

Sometimes she doesn't name names, but other times she does. It makes everyone uncomfortable. She's toned it down quite a bit, but she still does from time to time. As I think I said in another thread, her counseling is unofficial and people who go to her for help know that, so she's not in violation of any therapist organization's rules, but it still doesn't make it right.

[BlueIris]

4. I'll think positive thoughts, but it seems to me...

that you've already made your decision.

[MorningGlow]

13. Thanks, BI

I'm trying to keep an open mind and wait a bit to see if anything changes--in either my opinion or the vibe of the school--but I've been feeling this way for a long time, and it's only gotten stronger...even to the point that I suspect I'm being pushed to make a move. Now, I just don't know if it's the universe telling me to move on, or if someone at the school has done a spell to make me uncomfortable enough to get out. Not that it would make a difference--the result would be the same.

[Dover]

5. MG...just reading between the lines of your story

it sounds like you have already outgrown this group and 'moved on', at least emotionally.
Perhaps fear of the unknown vs. a natural need for autonomy are issues doing battle within you.
We all leave our families as a process of our growing inner autonomy. It's a healthy sign, though also a bit scary. We can't know who we are until we stand on our own two feet.
Sometimes we have to wait for the misery to outweigh the fear in order to get up the strength and
incentive to push on from difficult or unhealthy situations.

Maybe you are looking for that last straw....?

Funny how change, which is the natural law of things, brings up so much fear and dread in us. We will put up with the most miserable conditions rather than bow to this inner law. However IF we are indeed on a journey (toward source) then that involves movement rather than stagnation. And we usually know when we begin to stagnate or have outgrown the current environment or relationship
through the experience of anger, frustrations, drama, etc., but ignore it mainly out of fear. We die many deaths on our journey and are born many times over.

[I Have A Dream]

6. Very nicely said.

:thumbsup:

[MorningGlow]

16. Very true, Dover

I have lived many lives in my 41 years of this incarnation. In fact, a friend once commented that I seem to live my life "in boxes"--I have an existence--friends, job, living situation--that I spend a few years on, and when it's done, I am VERY aware of it, and I pack it up and move on to the next. It drives my mom crazy!
:rofl:

I'm not restless by nature; it's just the way I've chosen to live this incaration, I guess. Maybe I'm trying to pack as many karmic experiences into this lifetime as possible! :D

ANYway, you are right--I am hesitating because I do fear the unknown, especially because now that I'm a stay-at-home-mom, if I ditched the coven, I'd have NOBODY to talk to aside from MG Jr., DH, and my mother. Not a good reason to stay where I'm not wanted, of course. That would just be shooting myself in the foot. So that's why I'm waiting for a definitive sign. Is this really what I'm supposed to do, or not? Need a bonk on the head from the universe one way or the other.

The other thing I'm wondering is...do I need to stay with the coven to gain what I need for the Shift, or will I shift better if I got out of the situation? I don't know the answer to that.

[Dover]

21. Your path sounds very Uranian...the sudden changes.

And perhaps the Venus retrograde period that is now completed shone some light on these relationships and allowed you to see them in a light relative to your own needs and personal growth.
Had you and your friend joined the coven together?

At any rate, it sounds like you won't be lingering in this limbo for too much longer.

;)

[MorningGlow]

28. Yes, this all came up during Venus retrograde

I recognized that after reading a column someone here linked to about a week or two ago! What resonated for me was a statement in the column that certain relationships were going to have light shone on them, and now was the time to clear up any issues or prepare to go through it again. I got the spotlight on the issues, certainly, but unfortunately they didn't get resolved. :(

Yes, my best friend and I were in the very first class of the school (before it was a "school" actually) and she and I and the others were our elder's first initiates and the founders of the coven. She and I are the only two left from that very first group.

[I Have A Dream]

7. MG, I wish you peace in reference to whatever decision you make.

It seems to me that the group's "soul" is being destroyed by members giving in to their lower urges. Nothing destroys the cohesiveness of a group (especially a spiritual group) more than people giving in to gossip, envy, etc. That is the reason that the AS&AH group is such a special group to me.
I so appreciate the fact that nobody here (in my opinion) is made to feel as though they don't belong; it's not cliquey. If things were to change, I'd be less likely to want to spend time here.

We are parts of spiritual groups because we want to be uplifted -- not brought down.

Good luck with whatever decision you make. :hug:

[MorningGlow]

17. Thank you, Dream

:hug:

You know what? I'm learning more from this AS&AH group than I am from my school right now. That's a big sign for me. The folks here are way more supportive than in the coven, and I prefer that. I am pretty fed up with the gossip and crap in the school. I believe our elder should control that, but since she's an instigator and encourages it, it's not about to change.

And--a big Keanu "Woah..." here--you just pointed out something I hadn't noticed or at least given a name to yet--the school/coven IS cliquey, and I am noticing quite strongly that I am NOT part of it, mainly because I don't go to all the sabbats, don't have time to attend the three- and four-hour Saturday afternoon seminars that pop up way too frequently, and choose not to pay megabucks for consultations with the ayurvedic practitioner who's aligned with the school (I had gone to him before, but my homeopathic MD gives me better results, and he was fine with that, but I feel "judged" by my coven sisters, as if I'm not fully "walking the walk" in their eyes).

Both our elder's half sister and I agree (we've talked privately) that the school/coven has taken a negative turn lately, and it's grating on us. Sad, really. It was doing so well for so long...

[I Have A Dream]

19. Could you and the half-sister start a new coven? n/t

[MorningGlow]

24. Yikes! Witch wars!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Seriously, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing something like that without my elder's blessing. Although OceanSpirit did say to me the other day that if I started teaching, she wanted in. LOL!

[davsand]

30. I'm curious--why is her blessing important to you on this?

Is it a fear of "hurting" her somehow? Is it a problem for you to go and do your own thing? Is this a control issue somehow?

I may be completely off base here, but I'd celebrate anyone that was working to learn and grow. IF it means I get less time with them, than I'd like, then I'd work to try and spend time with them in other ways while I allowed them room to grow.


Sorry to just jump in, but that really struck me when I saw your response.



Laura

[MorningGlow]

32. It's the lineage

Touchy thing, lineage. My elder is teaching what her (quite famous) elder taught her. It would not be ethically correct to go off and teach this without consent.

[davsand]

36. I view knowledge as a gift to be shared freely.

Please understand, I mean no disrespect for your tradition when I say this--ok? I do not sit in a judgment of what you see as an ethical issue-that is certainly not my right--and I do not ever want to contradict what you feel to be the right path for you. I guess my attitude about teaching and learning is a bit different.

What little I know is a gift that I share freely with anyone that seeks the knowledge. I admit freely to being wrong at times, and I admit freely that I have far to go, but whatever I've got is yours. Arcane knowledge is "arcane" only because it has been made so by the people who hold it hostage.

I shudder to think where we'd all be if some of the great minds of science had refused to share what they'd learned. I think our entire world would be a sadder place had Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tzu and Mohamed kept secret the enlightenments they carried, and I am supremely grateful to the women like Z Budapest and Starhawk. I place high value on what I learn here from ALL of you--because it is knowledge that is shared freely to all who seek.

I do think that at time students ask for more than they are ready to handle, but I also think that as a teacher I have a responsibility to not only share the knowledge but also the understanding that I have about it. ("Yes, dear, you CAN drive a car at 90 mph in reverse, but it really isn't safe to do that...")

I dunno, maybe I have been a solo for too long. Maybe I've forgotten the niceties...

:shrug:

Peace to you, and may you find a solution that helps all and brings fulfillment.


Laura

[MorningGlow]

46. No offense taken--I agree with everything you said here

This one point, about not teaching without my elder's blessing, really is strictly lineage based. Things taught in a particular tradition or lineage isn't guarded like secrets--it's just polite to ask to teach it as well. If I were in good standing with my elder and I wanted to teach a class on my own, I would ask if that was okay (just as she did of her elder before she started teaching), and she would have no problem with it. But if I just went off and started teaching classes and she found out about it after the fact, it would be considered the height of rudeness.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. Trust

trust your inner guides, and follow their advice.

I have been in situations that didn't feel right, and eventually left. I did feel alone for a while, and wondering, just as you are, what will happen-will I have a support group when I need it, etc. What I got from my inner guides were two words: Trust and Wait. I did these things, and new avenues and new people came into my life-not the ones I was expecting, and not in the way I expected.

May you learn your lessons from all of this in a good way, and may you soon find peace.

[MorningGlow]

18. LOL--I'm badgering my guide day and night!

Hee--he must be so sick of me by now! :rofl:

I think that's why I haven't made a move yet--I'm waiting for an absolutely certain sign. Maybe I'm not getting one right now because other things have to happen with other people first, or I need to be more at peace with my options, or the other usual things that affect making a move.

Thanks for the wish for peace, Ayesha. It's all I really want. :hug:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

34. I don't think the guides get tired of us

My dear one doesn't, at least. :)

And remember, waiting is ok to do until you know for sure.

[MorningGlow]

48. Nah--I was just kidding

In fact, my guide just revealed himself to me a little while ago--no, wait, scratch that--my guide was hopping up and down and yelling at me for quite some time, and I was a little blind--okay, a lot blind--till just recently. I just adore his pure love and patience. I have been asking him about this and have gotten some answers, but nothing definitive. I believe the definitive answers will come when the time is right. :hug:

[I Have A Dream]

9. While showering this morning, another thing hit me.

It's possible that some difficult astrological aspect is hitting either your chart or the coven's chart, and once the planetary configurations change, your relationship with your Wiccan family will return to normal.

I have a question. Do you want it to return to the way it was before, or have you outgrown the group? The fact that your learning is being impeded because of new people is a tough situation, but I also see it as you now being an elder who gives back to the new people to continue the practice in the world. It's the same way in martial arts training. In many schools, once you get to a higher level (an upper-level belt), much of your time is spent teaching beginners. It's the way that you can give back to the practice and to the Universe.

However, if it really doesn't feed you any longer, it would probably be best for the coven if you don't stay since your heart really won't be in it.

:hug:

[MorningGlow]

20. That crossed my mind as well, Dream

I was wondering if an astrological aspect was skewing my feelings about the situation, or maybe blowing it out of proportion in my eyes, or something. I have gone through other rough spots, being sick of the place, and it's always passed. (I will admit this one is the most severe I've ever experienced. Could be a sign, could be just a result of our topsy-turvy times exaggerating all emotions.)

I'm not sure how to answer your question! (Maybe I need to be clearer in my own goals!) What I want is for the gossip to stop. For the judging to stop. For the assumptions about people to stop. I don't have a problem with newbies per se, but I do have a problem that our elder is now tending to prefer them to (some) old-timers because the newbies feed her ego, looking upon her with starry eyes, and other old-timers, like my friend, believe she is infallible. Both my elder's half-sister and I (and a couple of other old-timers) are a little more pragmatic and have different opinions on things, and she doesn't like that at all. (For the record, my elder's ego inflation is recent--I was always proud of the fact that she didn't have one for years and years and years. Can't say that about her now.)

Funny you should mention the term "elder"--another fear I have is that if I leave, they will assume I'm mad because I wasn't formally made an elder. My best friend and I were in the very first class of the school and were two of the very first group of initiates (we're the only two of that group still with the coven). Our elder made my friend an elder in a ceremony at Lunasagh to honor her for her contributions to the school. I was not. I don't care--I don't get my self worth from titles--but I know that my elder was worried that I'd be upset about being overlooked. If I bailed, I'm pretty sure she'd draw a line from that even to my decision, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Methinks I'm too worried about what people will say about me after I'm gone...

[emcguffie]

22. I'm back.... FInally.

About your situation, to me it looks as if the first thing you should do for yourself is to stop resisting what is happening. I have no idea whether or not you should stay or leave or start a new coven or what, but I'm pretty sure you need to detach from what is happening. Gossip is always a no-no, and if part of the coven is indulging in it, the thing to do is to step back, keep your head down, and do not engage in, or resist, what is going on. If anything, send those people light, because they are doing themselves harm when they indulge in gossip, which is always, always, toxic and a great big no-no.

It's kind of amazing that anyone called an "elder" would fall into such a trap. Maybe it's just a temporary blip. Maybe it isn't. Just remember, you can't force anyone else to change. What you can do is to change what you are doing in reaction to what they are doing. That's where your power to effect change is.

(I'm glad to be back. I've been lurking for months. We were terribly broke for a while there, running out of money every month because my husband has gone back to school. We refinanced and things are better now. Hi, ya'll!)

ETM

[MorningGlow]

29. Hi ETM

:hi: Welcome back! (I hear you about the money issues--I quit my job at the beginning of the year and things have been a financial roller-coaster ever since--got lots of mojo on my car especially to keep her running. I always hear Han Solo in my ear when I drive: "Don't worry--she'll hold together. You hear me, baby? Hold together!")

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate it. The one thing I am very proud of is I have detached from the crap--I don't phone other members of the school and trash-talk any of these people, I don't bug my elder trying to find out what's going on (because she would see that as a personal attack)--I just abide, like the Dude. I go to class, take my notes, and try not to feel like I don't want to be there.

Of course, because I have detached, the rest of the folks in the coven think that I can't be bothered with them, and then the situation just gets worse! Ya can't win with these people. :eyes:

Good point about the blip--for about a year I have been explaining away my elder's "bad behavior" as a result of menopause. I was a preteen when my mom went through the Screaming Meemees, so I know what hormones can do to a person. (I also have a thyroid problem, and when it went severely out of whack, I was the one doing the screaming meemees even though I was in my 30s--hormones are powerful things.) But there's only so much excusing you can do. I don't know what's hormonal with her and what isn't, at this point.

[emcguffie]

72. I also have a hard time getting to the computer.

My daughter is 13 now, and she is on it ALL THE TIME! Talking to friends who moved away last year.

So it does sound like you should start a new coven, as you certainly aren't a beginner anymore, and those folks sound kind of confused.

Someone used to tell me to use an affirmation, it was a good one, but I'm not sure I remember it correctly. About releasing what should leave your life, and only keeping in it what should be kept in it. So that the right thing happens.... SOrry I can't remember the words. It's been a while, and my memory is nonexistent these days.

[Why Syzygy]

74. I once did a spell

which included a cleansing bath, cover the mirrors, to release and drain away all negativity in my life. The next day I was fired from what had become a horrible work situation. That experience taught me a lot about magic!

[MorningGlow]

75. The affirmation is certainly a good idea

Could always make up one's own, I suppose! :)

I think, if I do bail out, that I will study by myself for a while and just let things happen organically. I don't have it in mind to start a new coven, but if that is what is Supposed To Happen, I wouldn't turn away.

I think I need to spend some time getting back in touch with my own magical self, without any politics in the mix. You know--meditate more like I know I need to, talk to my guides more, do more divination--just get back into it while there are no outside expectations/requirements putting demands on my time and energy.

(Your computer adventures remind me of my brother's family--they have one computer in the "common area"--dining room--as parenting advice goes--and he was ALWAYS bellowing at my niece to get off the damned computer. Then she got text messaging, and he had the computer as much as he wanted...and huge texting bills!)

[I Have A Dream]

64. I'm glad that you're back, ETM, and I'm happy to hear that things are better now.

:hi:

[emcguffie]

73. Thanks.

I have a couple of things I need to post, but my fingers are too cold at the moment! No heat yet, and it's FREEZING IN HERE!

[davsand]

23. Sounds like your "personal orbit" has shifted a bit.

Sounds kinda profound--don't ya think?

:P

I am very sorry you are feeling hurt right now. This kind of stuff is just SO painful to deal with, I think. I faced it with a circle I was in several years ago and it really bothered me for some time before I moved on. Part of what I was facing at the time was not only the feeling of being somehow "unwelcome" but also being made to feel that way because I was somehow too "emotionally distant" from specific members of the circle. My crime was that I didn't drop everything at a moment's notice to deal with the Trauma Du Jour.

I am removed from it now, and less impacted by it, but there is STILL a feeling on my part of almost irritation when I stop and think about the five and six phone calls a weekend demanding my time and attention. This went on for months, and at first I did feel guilty for not being "enough" of a good friend to meet the needs of this one person. Finally, one day I was on the phone with her for the third time, and I distinctly heard in one ear the phrase "emotional vampire."

Gave me pause for thought. It also scared me enough to step back and look at what was happening on a more objective level.

After much meditation on the issue and a lot of self questioning, I came to the realization that the expectations of other people are valid only as far as you want to allow them to be important to you. We are given the right of self determination, and somebody that wants to guilt you for your decisions probably has not fully grasped that reality.

I am not saying to run away, or abandon those you have loved. I am saying that it is a matter of self acceptance to allow yourself to have boundaries and feelings. I find it a blameless thing to move on when you feel a need to. After all--we don't blame planets for moving through the sky, do we? It seems kinda pointless to be blaming leaves for falling off trees and flowers for wilting because it is just part of the natural ebb and flow of things.

You may find that one day you DO feel harmony with them again and THAT is good too!

How they all feel about it is up to them. Yes, you do have to be as non-hurtful as possible (we owe each other that, and we owe it to ourselves to act as kindly as possible) but if you do determine that you are better off by going solo for a while-- or maybe even hooking up with your other coven mate that has stepped back--then you need to do that and allow yourself to feel ok about it.

For what it is worth, I think that we all have to learn to accept our feelings as valid. It isn't just you and it isn't just me.


Love and hugs to you!


Laura

[MorningGlow]

31. Holy crap, Wonder Twin!

That is EXACTLY what I've been going through. "Trauma du Jour"--indeed!
:rofl:

I also get a lot of shit for not living in the same town as everyone else (I'm about 25 minutes away). Let me tell you--that town is the armpit of the state. I would NEVER live there. In addition to it being a cesspit, it's too far away from DH's work (and mine, although I have quit my job). Most important for me, though, is I need some breathing room, with some distance between me and "the girls"; otherwise I would have been dragged into the Trauma du Jour on a regular basis. But then, they think I'm not "dedicated" to my sisters...ugh.

I'm definitely going to spend more time reflecting on this situation to see what the universe has to say about it. Still, it will be difficult to shake off the guilt (I am a survivor of the Catholic faith, after all. :P )

[crikkett]

27. Advice based on my own experience of group dynamics

It seems like you've outgrown the class, which has reverted to a more junior level, which you should probably be teaching. In that case it's natural that you'd find it lacking if not a waste of time. You probably should think about how you can change your role in the group if you don't want to leave altogether.

Maybe it's a good time to go on sabbatical and to explore new things so that you can bring them back to teach. If you do go on sabbatical don't lose touch.

People have to do things they don't want to, as part of being a family. But it seems like you're being asked to spin wheels in a way that isn't helpful to your real family (your child) -- wait, aren't you driving all over the place for these classes, while you're tired? I think I remember sending you light for a safe drive.

Isn't venus still in retrograde? Perhaps your heartache is the dawning knowledge that these women aren't going to be the kind of family you want them to be. In that case you either accept them for what they are or you don't... in all cases appreciate them and what you've had together. Maybe you can practice ho'oponopono on the lady who needs counseling because you weren't as good a friend as she wanted you to be.

Change is life! Good luck to you and thanks for listening to my BS.


PS seriously though if your core group is taking on juniors/newbies then you should have some sort of 'elder' status and the privileges that go with it, one of which should include the right to skip class if it's something you already know. There's no other group in the world that makes established members go through initiation-level stuff all the time - not one that lasted anyway. Even here, the DU post count stops at 1000+ and it's seen as a 'graduation'.

[MorningGlow]

33. I should clarify the class dynamic

Most classes are a mix of different levels, from newbie to most experienced. Usually we do a guided meditation (but, come to think of it, we haven't done that lately...I wonder why...), then either taking notes on the specific field one is studying at the time (newbies take notes on first-degree basics; after that you can choose to study a lot of different subjects--right now I'm studying to be a runemaster, for example) or taking notes/discussing a topic that our elder feels is important to everyone's education at a particular point.

The reason I'm bored right now, though, is that the special "elite" class I described upthread has gone by the boards. I'm not feeling fulfilled with regard to "discovery". Working on being a runemaster is fine, but I really, REALLY miss our special class as it used to be. However, I must recognize that that isn't coming back. My elder has too many issues with her half sister and refuses to work with her on such a high level that requires a great deal of trust. (That is another story entirely...)

As for teaching, the senior members of the school don't teach unless we request to hold a special Saturday seminar on a particular subject. As far as I know, no senior member has asked to do that yet.

I think one of the things holding up my decision about "moving on" or not is that I feel like I should put up with the quirks of the family. Lately, however, the quirks are becoming seriously unhealthy.

And yeah, it is quite a drive to get to school. It's better now that I don't work--less running around, not coming from work in the city but instead coming from home, and my town is closer to the town I have to drive to (about 25 minutes) than our previous house. That is also a big part of why I don't go to a lot of "special" events or parties or sabbats. It's a pain to drive that much. But I'd never live in that town--ICK! It's nasty.

[I Have A Dream]

38. MG, I just thought of something.

Prior to your leaving your job, you were having serious problems with the management at your ex-employer. We know that it wasn't anything that you were doing that caused it because oceanspirit confirmed that it was stunningly brutal there. Now this is happening with your coven sisters, which, again, I do not feel you are at all misrepresenting.

However, I wonder why all of this friction is appearing in many of your relationships. Again, maybe it's an astrological aspect, but it may be something that you might want to ponder. (e.g., what lessons does your higher self want you to learn from putting you in these situations?)

(It just hit me, and I felt as though I was supposed to pass the observation on to you.)

[MorningGlow]

49. You make a good point, Dream

That does happen to me from time to time in my life. I think it's karmic--I don't know, though. I go along just fine in a group for years, fitting in, with friends in social groups or high praise in a work situation, and then all of a sudden somebody (always just one person) decides I'm the antichrist, and everything turns on a dime. Then I get the ol' stinkeye and trash-talk behind my back till I move on. Somewhere in this thread I mentioned how I tend to live my current life in "chapters" or, as a friend said, "boxes"--I'm in a place till I'm done, and then I move on, which happens every few years, like I'm trying to live many lives in this one lifetime or untie as many karmic knots as possible in this incarnation.

When I'm feeling quite spiritual and benevolent, I am grateful to the people who have passive-aggressively shoved me out of whatever situation I was in (I've never been fired from a job nor publicly ostracized from a social group--it's always a very gentle extraction, albeit emotional), because I know on a higher plane they love me so very much that they will do anything to help move me to the next level, including playing the "bad guy". Well. That's a very rough description. It would take quite some time to explain it correctly, but perhaps you get the gist.

I do wonder if this situation is another episode of "Time to move on, you melon head, and if you don't get it with the subtle hints, we'll give you a kick in the butt."
:rofl:

[lildreamer316]

40. AHEM. (!!!!!)

WE are your new "family" now.
WE are your support system, as you learn to stand by yourself without that toxic environment. We are the next step for you..a family or coven that exists in a different plane...the electronic one. Universe says to you that it is not leaving you to fend for yourself: Universe has provided you the safe haven you seek.
Here, with us.
You wanted a sign?
Ok dear!

HERE WE ARE!!!!!
HELLO!!!


:hug: :grouphug: :hug:




Ok..you know it's coming.....wait for it....







"The bond that links your true family is not one of blood, but of respect and joy in each other's life. Rarely do members of one family grow up under the same roof."
"Your friends will know you better in the first minute you meet than your acquaintances will know you in a thousand years."
GOTCHA!!

Ya know I luvs ya, sister on the path.:hug:

[MorningGlow]

50. SNARF!!

You funny! (You did get me back!)
:rofl:

I must admit that the thought had crossed my mind a while ago--who says you need toxic folks in physical proximity? Why not have a supportive environment, even if it is "virtual"?

Cue Lucy bowling over Charlie Brown with the realization "THAT'S IT!!"

:hug: back atcha, sister!

[stellanoir]

55. I know this is hard for you.

But you've grown past these people luv.

Chin up.

An elder who acts petty and like a juvenile you cannot learn from.

You have support here.

:grouphug:

[MorningGlow]

57. Hi honey

Thanks muchly. :hug: I gotta say, the childish behavior in that group has made me lose respet for people I once looked up to. And when you lose even some respect for them, it's harder to accept what they have to say.

I SOOOO appreciate the support here. It's amazing. :grouphug:

[oceanspirit]

61. The childish behavior

MG,
I dont know how to box up quotes here, but this came from your post:

"Thanks muchly. I gotta say, the childish behavior in that group has made me lose respect for people I once looked up to."

This is exactly what you and I have talked about. I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. I can't believe all the support your getting from this thread. This is amazing!! :thumbsup:

I dont think I"ve seen as many responses to one post as I've seen in this one. Honey, look at all your friends here. Your truly loved!! We've talked about the 'sisters' before, and I suggested you may just need a break from the school. IF and I mean IF, they continue on talking behind your back, then they're they ones who are actually childish. As far as your elder goes, well honey to be honest, I think she's projecting some of her own problems on her 'clients' I dont think right now, she's doing a bang up job in running her school. Please no disrespect towards her.

I've met all your sisters and I adore all of them. But what I dont understand is if you follow the rules of the Coven, Then why are they no behaving properly, and why is your elder feeding into this. It's gotta make you insane.

They treated me with kindness, but after all it was a first time meeting, and also a very special occasion, so yes they were on their best behavior But, after listening for years how you are treated since the birth of your little MG, I think it's dispicable. How dare they think that you will put them before your little guy. That is just so wrong.

I'm here for you hon. So are many more just waiting in the sidelines awaiting to be able to help you.

This just breaks my heart, know how they are treating you. It's totally unacceptable to me!!!!!!!!!!


I love you honey!!

Oceanspirit

[MorningGlow]

63. Hee hee you did jump in!

Howdy!

Yes, this thread is AMAZING. I am completely overwhelmed by everyone's support and kindness and thoughtful responses! WOW.

It's really helped me sit down and think all this through instead of what I was doing before, which was fretting about the situation and stewing in all these wild and crazy thoughts about it.

I still don't know what I'm going to do, but I know I'm protected and loved. A HUGE dragonfly flew around me and MG Jr. this morning and landed on the house. It's nice to see a visit from one of my totem animals at a time like this. (I'm thinking of changing my avatar to a dragonfly in honor of its visit...where's the Mac dragonfly icon, anyway? It's around this hard drive somewhere...)

Anyway, yes, the ladies of the coven ARE very nice, and when you met them, it wasn't unusual behavior that you witnessed. But since then (nearly four years since MG Jr.'s wiccaning--yikes!) it's just gotten weirder, mainly coming from my 30-year friend and our elder, and I'm pretty sure it's because of what my friend is telling our elder about me in her counseling sessions.

Sigh. All of this is so silly (the gossip crap, I mean). I just want no part of it at this point. And maybe I did separate myself from the rest of the coven by not "participating" while MG Jr. was tiny, and maybe I'm feeling the effects now--that I'm a stranger to the rest of the coven members, and now separate from them. But that doesn't excuse the frosty behavior from the two women I'm supposed to be closest to. Makes me wonder what the hell else is going on that I'm not seeing...

Ah well. It's late. You're probably passed out by now--LOL! Call me if you get a chance. We'll just be hanging out all weekend--nothing special going on. :hi:

[Bluestar]

58. Just want to weigh in on the discussion here

You have been given some wonderful advice by the loving souls that visit this board and I, too, believe that you have outgrown this group and are ready to move on.

If I recall, you just came through a major career change by figuring out how to get out of a toxic job environment and stay at home with your son? If this is correct, then you recently made a huge shift. It is entirely possible that your spirit will no longer tolerate the interference of controlling authority figures who feign having more knowledge that you do.

From your descriptions of your elder and her actions, I find her to be rather controlling and the word "fear" kept coming up as you described her. Your former friend could be under her influence and has suddenly decided (with some manipulative help) that you were a bad friend. This could be because your friend still has her own lessons to learn about controlling authority figures--no judgment here because we all learn at our own pace. But you cannot allow your personal ascension to be impeded by the needs of others. We are to first honor ourselves and it isn't necessary for us to tolerate those who would "badmouth" us or make us question our own path. Send them all love and light, and take your own ascension forward.


Congratulations to you for moving above and beyond. You deserve to celebrate your recent learning, and I'm sending you high energy as you integrate your divine realization and revelation.

Love and light,
Bluestar

[MorningGlow]

59. Hi Bluestar

Thanks so much for your comments as well. Yes, everyone on this board has been wonderful--as usual!

You're right--I was the one who got out of a toxic work environment. I never thought that my coven would turn out to be toxic as well, but there it is. I feel so FOREIGN when I attend class--like I'm on the other side of a big pane of glass. (Hmmm...is the Shift splitting me from them already?)

I did use the word "fear" a lot, didn't I? I don't fear my elder, but I do fear the consequences of my actions--not that my actions will be incorrect, but that the high-schoolish clique will tear me apart once I'm gone. Of course, once I'm gone, will I care? Not to mention I won't even notice. But the people I called my friends for many years will be gone. BUT haven't they already gone...? (See my back-and-forth here? LOL!)

My friend would go to the ends of the earth for our elder, mainly because, since her divorce, she has no-one else in her life. She thinks I can't be bothered with her (but like I said in my initial post, with her it's all or nothing), her family members live far away, etc. She clings to our elder and is an extended member of her family.

I would like best to leave on good terms, but one of my elder's favorite words is "betrayal". This person betrayed her, that person betrayed her. I would likely end up on the "betrayer" list, but I'd be in good company.

Anyway, thanks so much for the love and light. I know that you and others here give it sincerely, and that means the world to me. :hug:

[Bluestar]

60. Hmmm--just to let you know

I was thinking the word "fear" on the part of your elder, not necessarily your fear of her. Usually controlling people fear something--losing control mostly. Saying that those who are not part of the coven are somehow less than members of the coven denotes negative emotion and negative emotions are fear-based.

I only point this out because it might help your understanding of her point of view a little better, thus helping you make your decision easier. Sending you light--Bluestar

[MorningGlow]

62. Ohhh I see--that is interesting

Yes, I believe you have something there. On one hand, her ego has inflated over the past few years, and she believes that her opinions are completely right. On the other hand, she may be frightened by the weight of the responsibility as the head of the school, in charge of so many people. If I think of her that way, my compassion for her returns.

I'll take that light and raise you some gold sparkles! :)

[Why Syzygy]

65. I am not one

for initiations or traditions. I left all that behind when I realized I'm a Pagan. Even though I have teachers and participate in circles, no one has all the authority. My spirituality has to do with Spirit, even though I have to tell you, I'm not always happy with her manifestations. That's my growth opportunity.

I have to wonder why you would want to be "taught" by someone who brings you such pain, especially if she does the things you are describing. I understand your loyalty to your tradition. Well, no I have to say I don't. But, it is obviously important to you. Is there any other way for you to be true to that even if these other bonds need to be broken? You may not be able to teach your tradition, but is there another niche you can fill?

Facing a slightly similar situation at work, with back stabbing, I know I have to separate myself at the earliest opportunity. It is too toxic. My goal is mental/physical/spiritual health. Being among people who constantly demean me and others does not advance that agenda.

I know you will make the right decision. You should also know that in situations like that, even those who listen to the gossip are just as guilty as the ones doing it, that doesn't mean that they agree. Someone else may be feeling uncomfortable about the atmosphere. It doesn't sound like they would have the freedom to dissent openly. That doesn't mean they agree.

[MorningGlow]

67. Thanks for your good thoughts, VSM

I totally hear what you're saying and why you're concerned. :hug: So I reread this entire thread, and I'm starting to suspect that my elder and my coven are being painted in a very, very harsh light, because of the tone I started with (because I was so upset after class Thursday night, when I did the OP). We're talking 15 years of history with these people, and I'm only sharing the bad things here, which have happened quite recently. I'm not making excuses--the bad things are still quite bad--but for the longest time, the coven WAS healthy. I am very appreciative of all the wonderful things I have done with the group over those very good years. During those years my elder was a voice of reason, very supportive and helpful in a myriad of ways. That, however, doesn't make recent developments okay. The dynamic of the coven has changed, and my elder has changed, and I'm not comfortable with these changes.

So, to answer your question, I truly enjoyed learning from my elder and sharing with my covenmates/classmates over the (good) years. I value my education. I still value that education, but you're right--attending school in a toxic environment causes me pain, which is forefront in my mind as I make my decision whether to stay or go or just take a break.

If I did leave completely, I would remain true to my tradition and yet I'm sure I will be able to serve the world in some way, most certainly integrating what I've learned in my classes over the years--that wouldn't be a problem. What I was saying upthread was that it would not be correct to start poncing around town calling myself a high priestess and basically mouthing everything my elder has taught me without giving credit to her and our long, distinguished lineage. No matter how she's acting right now, the knowledge and methods of teaching and learning and meditating came from some very wonderful people, and I wouldn't feel right not giving them credit.

But that is neither here nor there, as I'm not planning anything like that in the very near future. That kind of a future I would let form organically--I wouldn't go seeking it.

As for other people being uncomfortable with the situation in the school recently, yes, I HAVE heard from some others that they are VERY uncomfortable with the gossip. But since they are in different classes (they meet on different days from mine), I don't know what/how much they hear or how they deal with it (whether they remain silent or try to change the subject or what).

[AZBlue]

66. Here are my honest thoughts:

do with them what you wish! :D

It seems that the group who, other than family, should be most supportive, open, non-judgmental and loving to you is being exactly the opposite. I've been in a similar situation - although the group in question was not a coven - and it took me a while to break away. But, I finally did and I'm so much better for it. Fifteen years is a long time - people change. What worked in the beginning may not work now. You've all changed and you've gone on a separate path from others - there's nothing bad about that and it doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong. You've just grown apart - it's a cliche, but that doesn't mean there's no truth in it. I think you know that you're ready to do what's right for you - but it's hard and you needed a little support. You've definitely got that here on DU - lots of very good advice here in this thread!!

And specifically in response to post #42: "'we're not ready, we're not ready' (to her credit, including herself in the 'we')" Sounds to me like she's projecting her insecurity and inabilities (is that too strong a word - I'm not trying to be rude or mean) onto others. Don't let her unwillingness to move ahead hold you back.

Hope a sign or answer come to you soon - good luck! :hug:

[MorningGlow]

68. Wonderful honest thoughts, AZB!

Thanks so much! :hug:

You're right--everyone on this thread has helped so much and I'm blown away by all their advice and care and concern for my well being. It's a breath of fresh air! (Mom doesn't understand; DH abstains; OceanSpirit agrees with everyone here; the rest of my friends are in the coven and I haven't talked to the ones I still trust yet.)

And you're also right that people change--and that these recent changes aren't working for me. I'm very aware of how uncomfortable I feel at each week's class--I don't feel I'm "at home" there anymore. That's what's affecting me most, lately.

I agree that my elder is projecting her insecurities about not being ready for the Shift. When she says stuff like that, I just put my shield up and neutralize what she's saying so I don't integrate it into my own life. One time I actually DID say "We're FINE!" (well, there was more to it than that, but I was adamant, yet polite, in telling her she was wrong on this count) and she stopped, contemplated for a minute, and tentatively agreed. (That didn't last very long, however--her insecurities took over a few weeks later.)

Anyway, thanks again, AZB. I will be on the lookout for that sign, you can bet on it...unless this thread is it...! :)

[AZBlue]

76. You'll know when you see it.

Just from this thread alone I can tell you're very wise and grounded - you'll know what to do when the time is right.

Hang in there! :hug:

[MorningGlow]

77. Good to know I'm not sounding like a paranoid lunatic

Because when you tell only your own side of the story, even though you try to be fair, there's always the distinct possibility you'll come off sounding like a crybaby. If you know what I mean.

Anyway, I will hang in there, definitely (even though I have been having terrible dreams about the situation--and I almost NEVER have anxiety dreams, let alone a string of them, so this is obviously distressing me quite a bit), and I'll hope for the best!

:hi:

[oceanspirit]

78. AZBlue You're Right

MG is the most grounded person I know. She's right when she says I agree with everyone here. The reason I do is because, we're all trying to give her the same advise. As I reread all the posts, we're all really saying the same thing. Take a step back for awhile and see what happens. MG's elder has alot of her own turmoil going on right now I presume. This group started out all as sisters and friends. As time has gone on, some have gone through their own personal turmoils, some have sought counseling from the elder, and some have had other lifestyle changes (such as having babies). I think and this is my opinion only, that MG may have outgrown the group for now. Clicks (and this is what is sounds like with some of her sisters) have no place in a situation like this. Her elder (again in my own opinion) is not acting in a very spiritual way, but more in a mortal sense of the word. She tends to take sides (on which ever subject that they maybe on at the moment) Who ever gives her the most admiration at the time is the fav.. MG? does this sound remotely correct. If I'm way off base I apologize. But AZ I think your right, no I know your right, MG is extremely wise, talented and very grounded. She has her priorities in the right place for her right now. She left the toxic work environment (which by the way I"m still in ewwww). It isn't getting any better here, and she got out just in the nic of time.
Thank you for seeing my wonderful friend as she truly is.

Oceanspirit

[Chovexani]

69. And that right there is why I'm a Solitaire

I valued the time I spent in the teaching grove that was my first exposure to the Craft, but I'm just too much of a loner to get caught up in drama and whatnot.

I'm sorry about your situation. :hug: I wish I had some words of advice or comfort. All I can do is pray that the situation is resolved for the highest good of all involved.

[MorningGlow]

70. Thanks so much for your prayers, Chovexani

I'm not so much of a loner than I am a no-bullshitter/speak-your-mind kind of person. I don't like games and secrets and whispers--just put it out in the open or keep your yap shut, you know what I mean? Either way, loner or no-bullshitter, it comes out the same--a high intolerance to drama. Gets worse the older I get, too.

I have to say that this thread made me feel a whole lot better about the situation, however it turns out. I also talked to DH last night; he has always believed the coven was fairly unhealthy (but he is a MAJOR loner, so pretty much all human behavior irritates him :rofl: ) so he abstained from telling me what I should do, but did let me talk it out. He advised the same as everyone here--I might lose friends if I bailed, but what am I losing out on if they're not being true friends? He also advised that I take a break instead of quit outright--open-ended break, that is. Which is what I'm leaning toward these days.

[Chovexani]

71. I really hope it turns out well for you

I totally get where you're coming from about the intolerance to drama getting worse as you get older. If I'm this way at 26, I'll be a total curmudgeon by the time I'm 40. :rofl:

The open-ended break sounds like the best plan, given the situation. It'll allow you to exit gracefully from the group without too many hurt feelings.