Plants feeling pain?

[Dob Bole]

There is some discussion on the Internet about plants possibly responding to pain ("University of Bonn research") Sounds like crap to me....what do you think? Is there any truth to it?

[livinginphotographs]

1. First, you have to define pain.

In essence, pain is nothing more than data created to tell you (whether you're a human or a plant) that you're in some sort of danger. We interpret it in a more emotional sense, and it would stand to reason that all sentient creatures do as well (that includes animals).

The fact is that plants don't have a central nervous system. There will definitely be some sort of internal process to alert them to danger, data that could technically be called "pain," but it won't be anything like what we consider pain to be.

Some other posters may be a bit more qualified to answer this than me, but that's just my two cents.

[Elad]

2. Actually, plants have no reason to have developed a system

to alert them to danger. Why be alerted to danger if you can't do anything to prevent/stop the danger? Plants are bound by their roots to the earth, they cannot flee from danger, nor can they actively fight it, they are helpless, and thus would have no evolutionary reason to develop any sort of system to alert them to danger.

The extent of a plant's defenses is things like thorns and poison, which do not require "real-time" participation in the event of danger.

[livinginphotographs]

3. That's a good point.

Although I remember reading about a study where they noticed that plants emit soundwaves or something, and that these waves respond to what could be considered danger.

Don't have a link, sorry.

[Elad]

4. Yeah, I can find something on the internet that claims

that aliens are responsible for the mideast conflict and are migrating to earth using "portals." I find that to be slightly more convincing than that article claiming to prove plants "screamed" when cut. :)

[livinginphotographs]

5. Point taken.

I think we agree that plants don't feel pain, not the human concept of pain anyway,

But it would stand to reason that there would be some sort of internal reaction to being cut.

[Elad]

6. Well, the cells

in the affected area are capable of "responding" to the cut, in the sense of attempting to clot/repair the damage. But that is just a chemical reaction, not an act of will, without a nervous system and brain to experience what is happening, you just cannot make the argument that you're inflicting suffering... I think we agree on that.

[AlienGirl]

7. The big, glaring logical fallacy in the argument from plant pain

Though the best evidence says plants *don't* feel pain, even if you accept their first premise (that plants have some sensation analogous to pain) there is a big glaring hole in the logic behind the argument.

The reasoning in this argument seems to be, "We must eat something; plants may also feel (though we aren't certain), therefore we should eat animals because, one way or another we will be causing pain."

This argument is fallacious--just because one must occasionally cause some pain out of necessity does not excuse the causing of *all* pain out of desire. By implication, it would mean that it's okay to eat humans, because we already cause pain by eating plants and animals.

Beyond that, the polygraph experiments that were done in the 70s and seemed to show that plants reacted to things like people talking about pulling off a leaf have turned out to be bogus. If you hook up a lime Jello mold to an EEG monitor, it will produce waves that look amazingly like brain waves associated with consciousness, but no one's arguing that Jello thinks. If these phenomena are evidence of *anything* and not just artifacts of measuring technology, it's more likely to be morphogenetic fields than plant pain or Jello awareness.

Tucker

[smurfygirl]

8. I don't know but my cactus will shoot needles at you

if you get to close, so it must have some type of sensory.
My husband hates it but I have had it for 10 years and it has never stung me. I believe they must have ways to feel and then repair itself. But emotional pain I don't think that is possible.

[Maru Kitteh]

11. They don't actually "shoot" needles any more than porcupine do

which means not at all. They are just perfectly engineered by nature to detach and become REALLY irritating to any tender skin that makes even the slightest contact with it. Very effective.

Without a central nervous system and a brain it is simply not possible for plants to feel pain. Repair and pain are vastly different issues altogether. Pain is designed to provoke active fight or flight of which plants can do neither.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

9. Even if plants do feel pain, a veg lifestyle is still less cruel to them

The amount of grain needed to get just one pound of meat is unbelievable. I think it's something like 16 pounds of grain to get one pound of meat.

[Maru Kitteh]

12. 17 pounds of grain and 2000 gallons of water per meat pound

So while we're at it, let's wonder if the water feels pain too. :eyes:

[livinginphotographs]

13. LOL. I'm going to use that in the future, if you don't mind.

:D

[SemiCharmedQuark]

14. Right. So either way, eating plants directly is less harmful.

I think people misunderstand the goal of veganism. It is to create as little harm as possible. It is NOT to create no harm because that is impossible.

[Catchawave]

10. A great source of answers for all things AR/Veg

http://ar.vegnews.org/Questions.html


As for your question:

How do you know that plants can not feel pain?




I believe that our consciousness is intimately connected to our brain and nervous system. By the term "consciousness", I am referring to the ability to feel sensations such as pain, suffering, and a desire to live. Once a person is brain dead, he is no longer able to feel such sensations. Therefore, since plants do not possess anything even remotely resembling a nervous system, I believe it is extremely unlikely that plants can feel pain or suffering.

Furthermore, plants do not exhibit any behavior which would indicate consciousness, nor does the ability to feel pain give plants an evolutionary survival advantage. An animal's survival depends on reacting to situations which may cause pain and suffering. On the other hand, plants can not run away from a predator, nor can plants change their position to avoid a forest fire. Therefore, it is unlikely that plants would develop the ability to feel pain when it confers no survival advantage.



Follow up questions: (answered at the above link)

What would you do if we hypothetically discovered that plants do indeed feel pain?

Don't plants move their leaves to follow the sun?

Aren't there some religions which believe that plants possess a soul?

What if we killed the animals without inflicting any pain on them?

How do you know that other animals can feel pain?

What about insects?

Where in the animal kingdom does consciousness begin?

Is it ok to kill animals which do not possess consciousness?