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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:18 AM
Original message
Our energy problems are solved! NOT
Salt water as fuel? Erie man hopes so

Sunday, September 09, 2007
By David Templeton, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
For obvious reasons, scientists long have thought that salt water couldn't be burned.

So when an Erie man announced he'd ignited salt water with the radio-frequency generator he'd invented, some thought it a was a hoax.

John Kanzius, a Washington County native, tried to desalinate seawater with a generator he developed to treat cancer, and it caused a flash in the test tube.

Within days, he had the salt water in the test tube burning like a candle, as long as it was exposed to radio frequencies.

His discovery has spawned scientific interest in using the world's most abundant substance as clean fuel, among other uses.

Rustum Roy, a Penn State University chemist, held a demonstration last week at the university's Materials Research Laboratory in State College, to confirm what he'd witnessed weeks before in an Erie lab.

"It's true, it works," Dr. Roy said. "Everyone told me, 'Rustum, don't be fooled. He put electrodes in there.' "

But there are no electrodes and no gimmicks, he said.

Dr. Roy said the salt water isn't burning per se, despite appearances. The radio frequency actually weakens bonds holding together the constituents of salt water -- sodium chloride, hydrogen and oxygen -- and releases the hydrogen, which, once ignited, burns continuously when exposed to the RF energy field. Mr. Kanzius said an independent source measured the flame's temperature, which exceeds 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit, reflecting an enormous energy output.

As such, Dr. Roy, a founding member of the Materials Research Laboratory and expert in water structure, said Mr. Kanzius' discovery represents "the most remarkable in water science in 100 years."

More at: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07252/815920-85.stm?cmpid=localstate.xml

Wouldn't it be nice if the people reporting on science actually KNEW something about science? The we wouldn't see so much ink and paper wasted on this kind of baloney.
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eyesroll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. Since I don't know much about science...what's the problem with this?
I could apply your last two sentences to constitutional issues on DU.
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Well, for one
The fact that you can split water into hydrogen and oxygen by applying energy is NOT "the most remarkable {discovery} in water science in 100 years." That's been known for so long and is so routine that kids do it in junior high science class. And "discovering" that hydrogen burns or that you can create a high temperature plasma by applying a radio-frequency signal to an ionized gas is also old news. The joker is that you don't get more energy out than you put in-all you're doing is re-arranging atoms. And what the hell this has to do with salt water I can't fathom either. It works with fresh water too. People have been peddling get-rich-quick energy schemes like this for ages, and they NEVER, EVER stand up to scrutiny
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eyesroll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Thanks for the explanation. Your OP makes more sense to me now.
Edited on Sun Sep-09-07 11:44 AM by eyesroll
Like I said, I have no science background at all...the headline caught my eye on the latest page.
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. The laws of thermodynamics is the biggie...
so he's using a microwave (or whatever) to split hydrogen from oxygen, freeing it to burn. How much energy does it take to run the beam? Do ya think he's finally succeeded in creating the worlds first perpetual motion machine?
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. A perpetual motion machine in this dimension would have to tap off
of the magic called dark energy or feed off of another dimension altogether.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steorn
Details of the technology

Sen McCarthy has stated in an RT radio interview that, "What we have developed is a way to construct magnetic fields so that when you travel round the magnetic fields, starting and stopping at the same position, you have gained energy... The energy isn't being converted from any other source such as the energy within the magnet. It's literally created. Once the technology operates it provides a constant stream of clean energy."<24>

The device has been reported to be an all-magnet motor, with no electromagnetic component.<25> Following a meeting between McCarthy and Professor Sir Eric Ash in July 2007, Ash reported that "the Orbo is a mechanical device which uses powerful magnets on the rim of a rotor and further magnets on an outer shell".<26>

In a demonstration to The Guardian at Steorn's office in August 2006, a computer display reported the device to have an efficiency of 285%. The article goes on to say that Steorn claims to have measured efficiencies up to 400%.<14> Steorn also claims that the device can be scaled to almost any size, powering anything from a flashlight to an airplane.<27>

Patents

An international patent application (PCT application) assigned to Steorn was published in April 2006.<28> The patent application describes a method of turning a magnetic field on or off and makes no claim concerning generating energy. Related patent applications have been published in Canada<29> and the US.<30>

In August 2006, Steorn stated this first patent application was not a patent on the core technology but was one of a sequence of patent applications which describe various aspects of it. These other applications were said to be at the pre-PCT stage and would move to the PCT phase in the near future.<31> Patent applications, including international patent applications, are normally published 18 months after their earliest filing date. As of 19 July 2007 no additional patent applications have been published.[32
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I'm guessing he won't be applying for a US patent
They don't even open the door any more for people who try to patent perpetual motion machines, which is basically all this is, and not a particularly original one at that. And I'll wager my right thumb that when he actually has to prove he can power some device with this thing for a few days or weeks, and not just doctor up a computer display to say its working, he'll fail miserably. There will be delays, excuses, pleas for more investors, whines about oil company conspiracies to suppress his invention, etc., until he finally ends up on the inventors scrap heap with all the rest of his deluded ilk. It's all been done before and it has always flopped.
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. Bunk bunk bunk ... why does this keep getting reposted?
Edited on Sun Sep-09-07 05:22 PM by eppur_se_muova
Last time, this "Washington County native" was a "Sanibel Island resident" ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=228&topic_id=30674&mesg_id=30674

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=107482&mesg_id=107482

Basically, this devices consumes a large amound of electrical energy, part of which is converted to a chemical fuel (H2), which then burns, releasing part of the original energy. Energy is transformed from one form to another, but no new energy is produced.

Oh, finally found my other links to this "resurrection weed" of a topic:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=228&topic_id=30674&mesg_id=30687

ON EDIT: Yes, I realize the OP was by someone who didn't buy the story. Not meant to criticize the poster, just the rubes who keep encouraging this "inventor".
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-09-07 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. That was really my criticism too
The "science" is so silly it almost doesn't require comment-the real problem is the people who keep reporting this story blindly and without understanding, when even a little science knowledge and internet research would clue them in that this is baloney. How much better could this have been if the "reporter" had actually been a scientist writing a weekly column and had used this story to make an educational point about bogus science and the spread of hoaxes. Unfortunately, very few newspapers (probably including the Pittsburgh Gazette) carry such a column, despite the importance of the topic.
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wdken Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-11-07 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Do Radio Frequencies Help Burn Salt Water ? Not at all !
As posted by skepticscott, the science (and scientist) is so
silly it almost doesn't require comment.  The real waste is
the invalue portal-web (Yahoo!) public resources and innocent
people who keep reporting this "energy not being
conserved" blind story even with irresponsible mindset,
despite the importance of the topic.
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