Reparations...how do you feel about it.

[subutane]

Personally I feel that Reparations should be paid for slavery and for America's treatment of Indians. Yes I said Indians because many Indians feel that the term Native American is a derogatory one.

America benefited and prospered from the mistreatment of Human Beings. Much like what is happening now with "illegal aliens".

What are your feelings?

[LARED]

1. I think the sentiment is nice, but

proper reparations and who should get them are impossible to determine, plus it will do nothing to improve race relations.

[subutane]

9. Really?

So giving up and doing nothing as a response to those we are indebted to is the proper way to go about race relations?

[LARED]

89. Hence the problem

Whom are we indebted too? How much is a proper remedy? And how to do this without penalizing those that had no part?

Seems an impossible task, that once started will spin out of control, have loads of negative unintended consequences, and provide little or no accountability to those that are responsible for the damage.

It seems to me it is far better to just accept the past and move on.

[rollopollo]

132. Implementation

I'm not clear whether difficulties with implementation are the hurdle. Technically, advocates of reparation are not asking whites to pay the debt, but for the US government, which functioned during slavery and operates today as the same organization, to do so. That's the continuity that matters.

>It seems to me it is far better to just accept the past and move on.

It certainly easier for some people to "accept" the past and harder for others. After World War II, the US provided European countries with billions of dollars to rebuild their tattered country and economy. Arguably the damage done to black families and culture as a result of slavery, then segregation, and the dehumanization that accompanied it, in many ways seems more deserving of financial reparations.

[FILAM23]

118. Not only will it not improve race relations

it has the potential to make it much worse.

[ChrisdemW]

129. and you speak from what racial experience?

are you a minority youself?

[WOP]

183. I am.

I believe that America rightfully belongs to the Tribe and I hope they get it back, but revenge is wrong.

[liberaliraqvet26]

2. I donno...

but if they would be given they should be given in the form of college vouchers, healthcare vouchers etc....

giving people a large check would not be a good idea

[subutane]

10. why exactly?

Why would a large check be a bad thing? I sense some veiled racism in your statement.

[liberaliraqvet26]

22. we live in a country where most of the population...

are never taught anything about managing money properly. In high school and in higher levels, none of us ever learned about checking, savings, retirement accounts, effective use of credit, investments (stocks, bonds, etc....) I am in the financial services industry and am amazed at how little most of us know about money mgmt. This goes well beyond racial lines. Giving individuals (many of whom are not used to recieving sums of this nature) a large check will lead most (70%) or so into financial ruin.

[JuniperLea]

26. That's why most lotto winners

who won millions are soon broke and deeper in debt than ever!

[liberaliraqvet26]

30. exactly

i love it when I give my opinion and am branded a "veiled rascist".

us liberals are so tolerant <SARCASM>

[JuniperLea]

41. I saw that

I'm as sensitive to racist remarks as anyone I know and for the life of me, I swear that person was just trying to pick a flame fight with you.

You have to take emotions out of these discussions and treat the topic in a more logical manner... I think that is what you were doing. Too bad you got smacked for it.

[subutane]

88. corporate ceo's are given large sums of money

every day...apparently you feel they do the right thing with their money huh?

[subutane]

35. 40 acres and a mule

that's what was promised.

[Kerrytravelers]

42. That is factual. The promise was 40 Acres and a Mule.

However, how would the 40 Acres be given? Would it be in the square footage of homes and businesses? Would it be divided out among the undeveloped land that is already too small to handle our nation's wildlife? And What is the equivalent of a mule in today's terms? I don't think someone living in a big city would actually like a mule hanging around their apartment. A mule was a mean to farm and make money for one's self. Is today's mule an education?

Yes, the promise was 40 Acres and a Mule, but just saying that alone isn't putting the idea into a modern framework to discuss the issue.

[subutane]

51. market value

Fair Market Value for an average current price of 40 acres and a Truck. To be shared amongst decendants?


Of course this would not take into account what could have been made on 40 acres over a century.

[Kerrytravelers]

66. And, for me, that is where the problem lies.

How could what is due ever be decided and agreed upon? The divisions that would occur could lead to serious fractures among allies... allies that are needed to fight against the current regime of discrimination, bigotry and hatred.

I completely understand the arguments made both in favor and against reparations. I'm just not sure if this is the right time to bring another controversial issue to the table. But then, many people said the same thing about gay marriage I found that to be extremely crule... so I don't know. I guess I have contradicted myself a bit just now.

When is the right time to bring controversial issue to the table? Is now as good a time as any, or should we deal with other financial issues, like the deficit brought on by our little AWOL Georgie and his lust for war? Should we secure health care for all Americans first? I don't know... I"m just tossing out some thoughts here.

[subutane]

77. Said like a true Kerry Supporter

Just like gay rights and women's rights eh?

[subutane]

78. Bush's Stance on Iraqi Reparations

Seeking Iraqi Reparations
by Scott Simon

Weekend Edition - Saturday, November 30, 2002 · Jack Frazier was a robust ironworker when he was trapped for two months in Iraq after Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait. Denied his diabetes medication, the experience left him debilitated. This week, President Bush signed legislation allowing Frazier and others to collect damages from the Iraqi government. Weekend Edition host Scott Simon tells Jack Frazier's story. (5:00)

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=862262

[subutane]

79. Starve the Racist Prison Beast

Starve the Racist Prison Beast: Review of America's System of Mass Incarceration
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=STR20060419&articleId=2284


Debs would feel most un-free in contemporary America, where 2 million adults spend their days behind bars in the nation that possesses the world's highest incarceration rate.

[Name removed]

185. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kerrytravelers]

80. Excuse me. I've been civil to you. Why are you being snippy to me?

There is no cause for this.

[subutane]

81. just my own experience with the campaign

a bunch of people looking to get beside the candidate for a few minutes rather than try to help, people willing to throw all of the things Democrats stand for over the side of the boat in order to appeal to some imagined middle ground crowd in America.

America respects people willing to stand up and fight for what they believe in, regardless of those beliefs. They do not repect a bunch of wishy washy manilla folder people afraid of their own shadows.

That's why I was snippy.

[Kerrytravelers]

84. Wow. All these opinions on what I'm like & you know nothing about me.

How enlightened and intelligent of you. Perhaps rereading my thread will allow you to see I was very honest in the contradictions I was making. I made it clear how I felt about those who lay the blame at the feet of gay marriage. Or hey, instead of making assumptions, why not ask me?

You bring up a controversial subject, then insult those who are attempting to have an intelligent conversation with you.

Good bye.




Edited for spelling errors.

[subutane]

85. you already backed out of it

by saying it was too controversial

what a cop out

[Kerrytravelers]

86. Now I have no idea what you are talking about. Cop out? Huh?

But you know what? It really doesn't matter. I don't need to have a silly flame fest with someone on DU I've never seen before. This is really quite ridiculous.

Feel free to flame away at me all you need to. I will not bother responding.

[subutane]

87. quote

"I'm just not sure if this is the right time to bring another controversial issue to the table."

[rollopollo]

133. Land

"Of the 2.271 billion acres of land in the entire United States, the federal government owns 672 million acres."

While much of this land is uninhabitable, it seems that the lack of acreage that the government can provide is not the issue. The difficulty in deciding who receives what may be problematic; but that is administrative and not insurmountable.

The way I look at this is how much does the United States' moral authority matter? Does making false promises or refusing to make atonement for past injustices reduce the perception of us overseas? The last six years has seen a steep degredation in our reputation. As China, India, et. al grow in significance, the US will have to increasingly rely on moral authority not force. And don't the assurances of justice the US makes to people of other countries seems hollow from a country that refuses to right the racial injustice wrongs within its own borders.

[eyl]

134. I wouldn't factor in

how other countries view your paying or not paying reperations, given that a lot of them (the European powers, as well as Arabs and quite a few Africans*) also participated in the slave trade, and I AFAIK they haven't paid reperations either.

*Though the latter two categories don't, by and large, have a connection of continuity

[rollopollo]

135. Europe

Slavery was abolished in Europe in the 18th century. And you're right- there isn't continuity, because European countries had monarchies at the time. No European country as a democracy, whose representatives are chosen by the people, has had slavery.

[geardaddy]

138. Um...

The current ruling family of the UK has been on the thrown since before they ended slavery, and the Parliament has been around for several hundred years. So there is continuity there in the UK. They haven't paid reparations either. Just saying.

And for the record, I'm all for reparations.

[geardaddy]

139. Oh, and by the way it wasn't the 18th century in the UK

It was 1848. That was the nineteenth century.

[Caeia]

194. What about giving Black People a homeland -- They get the Confederacy?

I'll be honest that I don't expect racism to ever go away. But reparations are still a good idea -- we still deprive black people of a chance for real self determination. Even in majortiy nonwhite areas, they're still ruled over by whites. In my own city, our (white) mayor's idea of how to save the city is basicly "Get white people to move to the city". Me personally, I think the answer is to improve the lives of the people who already live there. If the poor people in the city had better schools, better health care, and better jobs, they could make a better life. I'm somewhat cynical of the ability of whites to decide for blacks on what would help blacks. And realisticly if they want to run their own lives, they need their own land.

Since the Confederate States were the cause of a lot of the racist crap, why not give poetic justice along with actual justice. Besides which, having a large contiguous land mass is probably better than a much of tiny cities.

[FILAM23]

102. No

it was not promised. It was proposed but never passed
Congress

[Broken_Hero]

104. American Indians

all ready recieve some of these...health care, and "a lot" of help with college. But, the issue is, funding. Yesteray, on Cspan, one of the D's from North Dakota, made a remarkable comparasion, with IHS(indian health services) and how much money the Fed govt dedicates to prisoners. With IHS, the fed govt gives 1,900 per american indian, and for the inmates, 3,900 dollars...now, are those priorities right?

Why give double the amount, to inmates, than to american indians? It's not painting a pretty picture, of how our elected officials view american indians, is it? Its a crazy world out there...

As for as the "big" check idea, I disagree with you, sorry. I don't see any problem, with cutting checks for reparations, when warranted. There are a LOT of tribes, who are in a court battle over the BIA Trust Fund accounts, where there have been Billion(s) of dollars, of mismanagement, and corruption, and many tribes have, again, been screwed over by the Federal Government...

[napi21]

3. Nope. Few if any "slaves" are still alive. None of the indians we

stole from. I believe in compensating anyone who has been directly affected by a crime, abuse, or injustice, but not their descendants or heirs.

[Waya]

6. Scuse me......but there are plenty of Indians alive today...

...who are directly affected by injustice which happened centuries ago.....and the injustice goes on today....visit a Reservation....

[subutane]

14. good point n/t

[Broken_Hero]

105. Very good point, nt

[wickedcity]

146. I think....

We make up for those injustices by pandering to their every whim and basically exempting them from government control.

[sipping radicchio]

170. Yes, the Native situation is different than slavery because of the rezzes

and I would like to see something happen with more land being given freely to the Native Americans. They are great stewards of the earth, too.

[Chulanowa]

173. We cry when you litter, too

And for some reason whenever we're around, the moon gets a wolf's face and has an eagle flying around it. For real and true, it's not just truck stop kitsch!

[subutane]

11. You don't think

Knowing that slavery was a part of your bacground has a direct impact on persons alive today?

[napi21]

17. Mentaly maybe, but my ancestors were from Germany and Ireland.

They went through a lot of trauma too, but I as a decendant am sure not looking to anyone for reparations for it!

I also happen to be female, and we were discriminated againse in the workplace for YEARS! Still are in many instances. I'm not looking for reparations for that either!

[subutane]

20. they came here by their own choice

they weren't shoved onto a ship..chained to a railing and sold to the first white person that saw them.

[napi21]

29. I'd be quite surprised if you were either.

ust because your ancestors were abused doesn't give YOU any rights to a benefit. Nor does it give ME the responsibility to pay for something some ancient American did. I, nor anyone I ever knew has a slave, nanny, servant, or any other people working for them or subservient to them.

I think it was terrible what occurred in this country for many years, but the perps are DEAD! Remember, you can't get money from a rock, or dead bones.

[subutane]

49. In a Nation of Such Obscene Wealth

You don't feel the act of giving reparations to those effected by slavery is a good move?

And why do you think I am Black or American Indian?

[napi21]

58. I think you better check again on the nation of wealth thing.

Last time I looked, we owed more to the international world than we own!!!!!

The wealth you speak of is consolidate in a very private and toop group of people in America today.

I you think you could be successful, you could try comtacting Bill Gates, and the rest of the members of that elite group. Maybe they'll feel generous the day they speak to you.

[OKCandHouston]

154. You didnt ask me but...

You don't feel the act of giving reparations to those effected by slavery is a good move?

If you want to steal money from the general public who had no dealings with slavery and give it to the one 135 year old person who was directly affected by slavery, then by all means, see if you can get the votes to do it. On the other hand, you could just give from your own pocket...

And why do you think I am Black or American Indian?

Probably because few outside those groups take any discussion of reparations seriously. It is a safe bet statistically.

[Broken_Hero]

108. with American Indians

the federal government does have responsibilites to American Indians. There are quite a few things, that the USA, has in "trust" with American Indians, IHS, college's, HUD development, Reservation dollars...etc etc...

[JuniperLea]

31. My white Irish ancestors were slaves

And were treated just as deplorably... I'll not seek reparations from Britain because of it either.


The descendants of slaves who in their 40's and younger had every opportunity to make good that I did... sometimes more so because I'm a white female and I'm still being discriminated against. The point is, you can't go back and make something right that has already been righted. The Japanese who lost all their possessions during WWII are still around and have never been given a fair shake.

[subutane]

83. I think demanding Reparations from Britain is a Brilliant Idea

Actually. I don't think your ancestors were slaves as much as indentured servents, there is a difference. And it is interesting that your ancestors were willing to give there lives in hopes that you would some day be a an American man but yet you turn your back on those who suffered. Not even willing to give a coin.

[JuniperLea]

90. If those who had suffered were still around, I'd be all for it

And quite frankly, I sometimes wish my ancestors had stayed put.

Right, indentured servants who were prohibited from learning to read, were tricked into signing over the lives of their new born children to the coal mine owners and owed their souls to the company store. It was slavery with a thin veil of propriety, nothing more. If they left, they were hunted down and killed.

[miscsoc]

191. you are a fool if you think most irish immigrants came to the u.s. by choice

.

[elehhhhna]

69. Great Aunt died on the Titanic. Can I sue them?

[JuniperLea]

71. The Cunard Lines owe you bigtime, elehhhhna!

heh!

[Broken_Hero]

106. :) Hey...:)

A lot of the, side effects of colonization, with the American Indians, the the white europeans, was a brutal experience. My grandmother, who is 81, went through the Indian Boarding Schools, she went to Sheldon Jackson, in Sitka, Alaska. These events, especially with American Indians didn't just happen, 400 years ago, or at contact, it happened within the past 80 years. In the 1920's, American Indians had their religion "banned", their ceremonies were considered to be an illegal/satanist act...

My grandmother's experiences, at Sheldon Jackson were brutal, and that was in her liftime, and she is still kicking, friend...:) The effects of colonization, on American Indians is pretty damn significant, go to any reservation, or indian boarding school, look at how these people live, American Indians, by and large, live in utter defeat....

[Chulanowa]

172. At least your ancestors made the choice whether they wanted to stay or leave

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you? Look, I have some Irish and Welsh ancestors myself, and no, they didn't have it easy, either in the islands or once they'd come to America.

But they were white, and they were free. They had the notion of prosperity and promise on their lips after they made the decision to pack up the potatos and crumbsnatchers and hop a freighter to the East Coast

I promise you that not a single man, woman, or child making the middle passage had the same notions on his mind. I further promise you that not a one of them had a choice in their journey. When they arrived in port, they didn't get to go try to find work and housing for their families. No, they had work aplenty, and no guarantee they'd ever see their family again. While the Irish ancestors we have in common knew they could save up to buy a better life for their kids, these folks shipped over from Africa would be forced labor for every single generation. Our ancestors had to deal with people who didn't like "papists" - but nobody ever lynched an Irishman for saying hello to a woman, did they? Hell, down in my part of the south, the Scots and Irish were just as happy to string up a black from a tree as anyone else.

Now my other ancestry, that's all Choctaw. You ever been called "swamp nigger", napi? I don't imagine you have. In fact I don't think a lot of people even understand that there's still two groups lower on the totem pole in the south than blacks - Indians and rroma. Unlike the Irish, and the Germans (and the english, and the Welsh, and the Swedes, and whoever else), the indians weren't immigrants. And they did the best to hold on to what was theirs by any right you can think of. And they got genocide in return, both literal and cultural. Now think about that.

Further, even after both groups were "officially" recognized as human, htey kept getting the absolute shit treatment they'd always gotten. Equal treatment is a very new thing for both groups, and still not quite in their grasp.

So I'll tell you what, Napi. when you can tell me a story about your ancestors seeing their homes torched, their elders and children slaughtered, then being clapped in chains and faulted onto a boat where htye would most likely suffer and die, only to end up as slaves in a peanut farm - and see their own children living the same with absolutely no options, then we'll talk. When you can tell me how your ancestors were faced with - and nearly got - total and complete annihilation on all fronts for the crime of simply living on their own land, only to be forced out of it at gunpoint into someone else's land, then we can talk.

Until then keep your entitlement complex the fuck out of any serious discussion on this subject.

[JuniperLea]

24. It shouldn't

Except for in an historic sense. My doctor is a descendant of slaves... he makes more money, has a bigger house, fancier car... a girl I went to high school is a descendant... she's now a councilwoman and is doing far better than me and the rest of our friends in every way.

There are some Japanese Americans who were put into internment (read: concentration) camps in California during the war. Their personal and real property was taken away and they had to start from scratch after the war. They deserve some sort of compensation if anyone does.

[Racecar60]

165. No I dont.

I thnik people use it as a crutch. If it impacts any lives today, it is their own fault.

[JuniperLea]

19. The American Indians are still being kept on reservations

I think that speaks for itself! They "owned" the entire country. I think they are the only group who is still suffering for what our government did!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

53. Slight correction

The term "reservation" refers to lands that the tribes did NOT cede to the US government, but rather "reserved" for themselves. As far as I know, no tribe requires that its members live on the reservation; many may be there because of poverty and lack of opportunity, but they don't have a requriement either by tribal leadership or by the US government to live there.

[Broken_Hero]

109. Funny thing

on reservations, and keeping Indians there. In my experience, IHS Clinics, are only on reservation land, or near reservations, so...if you choose to leave the reservation, to start a new life, you have to drive, or commute for multiple hours, to go to the doctors' office/clinic. With that in mind, most Indians, choose to live on the reservation, because their IHS clinic is so much closer...I know, for me at least, that the IHS clinic location, played a part in where I "decided" to live, or move too.

The IHS clinic I go to is just over an hour away, and that is fortunate for my wife and I. To my knowledge, there are "zero" IHS clinics in the State of Missouri, and the fact, that the federal goverment limits the IHS funding, and location of those facilities, leads me to the thought, that the fed government, is still controlling where indians live...its just food for thought...:)

[turtlelowe]

114. The term "reservation"

actually refers to land belonging to tribes but is held in "trust" by the U.S. government. There continues to be the paternalistic behavior of the U.S. government that we are their "wards." The tribes had no control over "reserving" anything for themselves. In fact, if tribes want to do anything with the land (sell it, lease it, develop it, etc.) they first have to get permission of the U.S. government through the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

[JuniperLea]

74. There are American Indians still suffering

and being taken advantage of... don't forget Abramoff and others who screwed them... and there are still many on reservations who have been given no opportunity for education or a means to make their lives better. That is a direct result of what was done to their ancestors.

[Broken_Hero]

107. Hey...:)

the Gale Norton, BIA Trust Funda Account fiasco. Federal goverment "lost" Billion(s) of American Indian dollars....and dont' want to pay a cent of it back...sounds, like stealing to me, and there are "a lot" of tribes involved with that case.

[Chulanowa]

171. Some things for you to chew on

While you sit and type, think about the property your home was built on. Do you know its list of previous owners and how they may have acquired it? Have you ever thought about it?

Your profile says you live in Flowery branch, Georgia. A few moments on Teh Google pointed out exactly what part of the state it was in, and Wikipedia coughed up a few facts. I'm sure the town records and local library would fill in every gap between. The town's name comes from a Cherokee word that translates as "flowers on the branch." That word is Anaguluskee. Anaguluskee is what the town actually was called, when it was part of the treaty-recognized Cherokee nation. That's right, the town you live in right now was once inhabited by the Cherokee. Not just inhabited, ruled by, as part of a sovereign nation recognized by both your state and the United States government.

If you don't know nothin' 'bout nothin', let me explain things to you. In a little town directly north of yours - Dahlonega, you can get there by taking Thompson Bridge road north out of Gainesville - somebody found a few nuggets of gold. This started the first gold rush in US history. In fact that's what the word was named after - it's another Cherokee word, meaning "gold." Well, I'm sure that unless you are really clueless, you're aware that these few nuggets of gold resulted in the forced removal of the Cherokee nation from their rightful land, out to Oklahoma. This was, in our modern parlance, ethnic cleansing.

The US government was the perpetrator of what was very obviously a crime, even at the time - after all, it was a gross violation of a standing treaty, and depending on how you look at it, a direct contradiction of the United States Constitution.

Most of the Cherokee are still in Oklahoma, though of course there's a fair number still in Georgia, North Carolina, and Tennessee.

And you? Well, my friend, you are sitting on stolen property, appropriated illegally via use of armed force, and whitewashed (both literally and figuratively" to be called "Flowery branch" to cover up that little bit of history. The land's rightful owners' descendants are still mostly in "Indian territory" and the treaty is still there... it is a criminal situation, the crime is ongoing, and you are, like it or not, involved as the recipient of stolen property.

of course, I doubt this matters much to you. After all, it runs directly counter to your inflated sense of entitlement.

[RC]

4. Sure. After we are done making the board of Halliburton rich

let's give the remaining $8.47 to those the U.S. Government wronged in this country.

[Caoimhe]

5. I wasn't here then and neither was anyone else alive

I don't believe in our forefathers sins being carried on to their children, great grandchildren, etc.

It's terrible what happened and we should never forget, or we are doomed to repeat it, but having one segment of the population pay off another segment based on what their great great great grandparents did is not only unfair but *I believe* unconstitutional.

[Waya]

7. Still repeating it....

...method has changed....agenda the same...

[subutane]

12. You are an American right?

Therefore you take on the benefits of being an American and the responsibilities of being an American. One of those responsibilities is to pay your debts.

[JuniperLea]

32. To whom do you suggest these payments go?

Seriously!

[subutane]

43. lineage

lineage would be difficult to establish due to lost records and such but it could be done for many thousands of Americans today. In the case of Native Americans I would suggest allowing each Tribe figure out the best way to distribute it or share it.

[JuniperLea]

47. What group other than the American Indians

are still suffering the injustice?

[subutane]

52. well right now....

...the poor, the illegal aliens as they have no legal recourse here in America and are still taxed on the purchases they make, the veterans, teachers, nurses, etc. etc.

But I feel that slavery was such an extreme case of abuse that it's decendants deserve reparations.

[JuniperLea]

59. I totally disagree

No one deserves reparations due their ancestors. No one. We should concentrate on those who are currently suffering directly as a result of US policy.

Veterans! Now there's a group who deserve reparations! And some of their ancestors are still suffering... children who grew up without parents; parents who had their children killed... but most of all, the hungry, homeless veterans on our streets right now. We should be ashamed.


At risk of having the illegal alien controversy rear it's ugly head here, I fail to see what rights a person has who comes to this country illegally. If they are going through the proper channels, that's another story. I can't imagine going to another country without their permission, without following their immigration rules and then demanding that I get some rights. Makes no sense.

[Waya]

62. On the offchance that this ticks people off.....

....but unless born American Indian - everyone here is an 'illegal immigrant'. The settlers didn't go thru 'proper channels' as I recall........

[Kerrytravelers]

67. The topic is controversial enough! Don't look for more!

:hide:

[JuniperLea]

70. There were no proper channels

So there was nothing illegal about it... what some of them did is immoral, I grant you that. But not illegal. In order to be illegal a law must be broken. No laws were broken.

[FILAM23]

103. Actually,

they went thru the "proper channels" of the day.
Unlike todays illegal immigrant the ones iolated no
law that was then in effect.

[Chulanowa]

175. You mean no IMPORTANT law that was in effect

... you know. A law written by a white guy. Those are the only ones that actually count, right?

The Indians of the eastern seaboard had some pretty stiff ideas regarding who got to live where, and the colonists were most certainly in violation of most of them.

[Chulanowa]

174. African Americans.

"But but but Chulanowa," you might stammer, "all the highest-paid NBA stars are black, so they're doing fine!"

Unfortunately, what the invaders tried to do with the Natives, they did very well with the Africans they dragged over - cultural genocide. Even with all the storms my folks have been through, at least I can still say what their traditions were, where they lived, and I can even speak a bit of the language. I can point back several generations and say who my ancestors were, though I'd have to do some research. After the invaders kicked our asses, they fenced us up on the reservatiosn and figured that the ones outside the rezzes weren't anything to worry about, so they just let us be, for the most part.

Blacks didn't get any of that. They got a total cultural deconstruction, and in its place was a code of self-hatred. They were brought up - and too many are still brought up - in a culture of fear and poverty. Indians don't live in fear that any given cop on the street is going to gun them down for "looking like a suspect" and while a good many indians live on poor-as-hell reservations, there are at least laws in place for them to make their own living - a lot of blacks live in places just as poor, and have to depend on the whims of business and city zoning to "make it".

If you don't think having your cultural ties severed from you, then having someone who hates you try to make you hate yourself and love them causes lasting damage, you've never met any of hte older folks who went to one of the boarding schools. If you don't think several centuries of oppression can leave a deep mark on a group, well, then you're just dense. If you don't think the injury to black Americans still bleeds to this day, then you're ignorant.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

64. Genealogical records

especially for people of American Indian background, are often hard to find. Lots of people were suspicious of census takers, and I'm not even sure that American Indians were counted and labeled as such. Birth certificates were not required in most states before the turn of the twentieth century, and unless you have town records to go by (such as they have in New England), there is often precious little that can be found, especially about females, prior to their marrying. And let's remember that being part American Indian wasn't considered cool. My husband's grandmother was orphaned as a baby, and there are no census records showing her until she was 30. I have tried and can't even find her marriage license. She told my husband she was "black Dutch", which was code for Cherokee, but never went into her past with any of her grandchildren. It would actually be easier for me to prove that my 12-or 13-great grandfather was a Wampanoag than to prove that my husband is at least 1/8 th Cherokee.
So not all people who actually have American Indian blood would be able to benefit from a program of honoring the treaties with the tribes. However, most tribes now have tribal roles for those who can prove ancestry; these would, of course, be the first to benefit from any restoration of land, etc.

As for African Americans-let us remember that it wasn't only whites that owned black slaves. In LA espcially, but also in MD, there were wealthy African Americans who owned slaves. So reparations to descendants wouldn't necessarily be racist, but rather a response to what we now view as an immoral and abhorrant institution. As some have stated already, however, I could see where giving each person of African American descent as opening the door to racists saying it was another giveaway. Also, would you prorate the amount given dependent upon the amount of African American blood in one's family tree?

One interesting side note: reparations for ill deeds sanctioned by government occurred in America before the US was created. Massachusetts Bay Colony paid reparations to the families of the Salem Witch scare victims. From my own family, it appears to have been money to compensate for paying for food/clothing for the women while they were in prison. In my family's case, the payments came over ten years after my 9-great grandmother died in Salem jail, awaiting hanging.

[JuniperLea]

48. Not my debt

I didn't do anything. Nor are there many left who actually suffered... so what's your point?

[subutane]

54. Do you feel America should pay it's Debts?

As I already stated.

[JuniperLea]

60. Yes, of course

And I feel the only debt payable is one that can be paid directly to someone who suffered an injustice. Homeless, hungry veterans... Japanese Americans who were interned during WWII and still living... American Indians who are still being used and abused by the likes of Abramoff.

[noamnety]

168. There are a ton of African Americans in my area who suffered injustices

within their lifetime because of racist laws that prevented them from having equal rights - including equal access to housing in the areas where homes rose in value, including access to the best schools.

The white people who were legally allowed to buy homes in the white neighborhoods near me saw their home values rise enough that just that equity was enough to pay for their kids' college, while the black folks were physically walled into the crappy parts of town, their homes depreciated in value, and it affects their retirement, the quality of education their kids received in public schools, and their ability to afford college for those same kids when they got older. Plus many of the kids in that area have lead poisoning because they were only allowed to live in the parts of town where the smelting companies had contaminated the soil.


I don't know why you would exclude them in your list, as if the only economic injustice black people in this country ever faced was slavery.

edit - didn't realize how old this thread is!

[Waya]

61. There are plenty left who still suffer...

....go to any Reservation, at any time, anywhere in the Country and you will see suffering.

Do you know for sure that none of your ancestors ever owned slaves?
Unless you are American Indian - your ancestors came here, more or less, as 'illegal immigrants', uninvited by the original inhabitants of Turtle Island - and took advantage of the (Government sponsored or not) misery of an entire race of people and the theft of their land.

Is this your fault, personally? Of course not.
Is it a 'moral' debt? I dunno.
Can it be made up with money? Of course not.
Can it be made up with human treatment of American Indians today, by honoring the Treaties, by honoring the promises the US Government has made so long ago and still makes today?

So far, the US Government has kept one promise made to the American Indian - they promised to take our land and they did!

[JuniperLea]

63. I agree with American Indians

And yes, I know without question that my family never owned slaves. It was one of the first things I looked for while doing research. My people met my people at Plymouth Rock... the American Indian blood was diluted by many generations of English, Irish and Welsh people though.

If there must be reparations, we need to give back to the American Indians first. And to the Japanese Americans...

I don't think payments to the descendants of any group makes sense or pays the debt. To the actual peoples who suffered and/or are still suffering? You bet!

[Ian David]

8. It would give racists more ammunition

They already point to affirmative action as justification to scapegoat minorities.

They even point to welfare, even though most welfare goes to white people in Appalachia.

Now you're going to hand them another club to beat minorities over the head with?

How about a Hate Crimes and Discrimination Tax?

People and companies convicted of a hate crime or found liable for discrimination are responsible for paying into a reparations fund.

I'm all in favor in principle.

I wouldn't mind paying it out of my own pocket.

I already owe $42,000 to bring democracy (or depleted Uranium, anyway) to Iraq.

I would much rather have paid for the forty acres and a mule.

[subutane]

13. base an act on its own merits

not on what any perceived reaction to it will be

[Ian David]

15. That's a good point, too. I agree with the merits. n/t

[JuniperLea]

34. How about a Hate Crimes and Discrimination Tax

Now THERE is a good idea!

And it should be color blind as well... a person of any color who is a hater is taxed. Bravo!

[subutane]

40. Interesting

So that would be an ongoing fund that would never run out. I still think America as a whole owes a large debt. We want to be leaders? Let's lead.

[JuniperLea]

46. Except for the American Indians

And the Japanese Americans that lost their property, there is no one left living who suffered through that crap. I think it would be wrong, would send a bad message and set a bad precedent to just pay descendants indiscriminately.

The American Indians are still suffering because of the injustices against them. And there are many Japanese Americans who survived US concentration camps and having all their possessions taken away. They had to start from scratch.

Those are the only two groups I can think of that actually have people to whom payments make sense.


I'm not Japanese, or even part... and there's probably only a thimble full of American Indian blood in me, so I wouldn't be getting anything from this at all... so, please don't call me a racist.

[JuniperLea]

16. I agree

American Indians is the term I use as the suggestion of an American Indian lawyer friend of mine. I'M a NATIVE American... I was born here.

The American Indians deserve the entire allotment. They are STILL suffering because of the US government.

[Kerrytravelers]

18. I have mixed feelings.

In regards to African-American reparations:

Would this be federal or state payments? Would it be cash, or as stated above in another post, vouchers, education tuition, tax credits or loans for school and homes? Possibly investments chosen by each recipient? How would worth be determined? If this is to be paid by the states,what would the parameters be as far as how to prove which ancestors were from what state? If it's a state issue, then does that mean people living in non-slave states are not responsible for paying? What if it could be proved that people now living in California had family that directly benefited from slave labor? How do we honor 40 Acres and a Mule in today's sense of money and investments?

In regards to Native Americans:

How would land be divided up? Would it be where each (for lack of a better word) tribe is originally from, or where they were (again, for lack of a better word) relocated? How do we put a price tag on the suffering and humiliation inflicted? And I will restate the same questions from the previous paragraph: Would this be federal or state payments? Would it be cash, or as stated above in another post, vouchers, education tuition, tax credits or loans for school and homes? Possibly investments chosen by each recipient? How would worth be determined? If this is to be paid by the states,what would the parameters be as far as how to prove which ancestors were from what state?


At this point in time, I have no answers to these questions. Then, the question that needs to be addressed is how this will affect race relations in America? If this happens, will there be other countries that we have wronged that will want reparations from our past sins? How much will this really cost us in the end, beyond the fiscal bottom line?

I have no idea. There are so many issues that need to be addressed and looked at from all angles. I'm not against, reparations. I'm not for them. I need fully answered questions and the means in which the answers were arrived before I can have any kind of honest opinion.

kt

[subutane]

21. you raise some good issues

regarding how to go about it, right now I'm more interested in if it is something worth doing as a Nation.

[Kerrytravelers]

23. I don't think I could decide if this would work as a nation unless the

above question, plus many, many more were answered first and presented to me in a cohesive way.

kt

[JuniperLea]

36. I agree n/t

[Waya]

25. You can't put a price tag on it....not literally....

...in the case of the American Indian - for the US Government to abide by the original Treaties (the legit ones) would be a good start......

[subutane]

37. OK now we are talking

This is a good start. Can we find any studies or existing movements and link to them here? Perhaps we can borrow some statistics or help them in their work.

[Waya]

45. ???

You lost me here. What 'movements' or 'statistics' are you looking for?

[subutane]

57. existing repartions movements

Any gathered stats on how many slaves were owned on certain dates. How many of those slaves were broken up families etc.

[Kerrytravelers]

38. You are correct. There is no literal price tag.

Everything, in the end, comes down to money. Our health care, our education, our security... hell, who even runs for office is often based on the bottom dollar. What will the financial costs be and the societal costs be before we do something like this?

And, what kind of opposition, even violent opposition, is likely to happen?

[Broken_Hero]

110. With American Indians.

I would be happy, if the federal government, fully funded IHS, and treated their patients like, well, people. I would be happy if the federal government appropriated more funds to American Indian schools, both college, and k-12 levels...I would also be happy to have all the money, held in "trust" by the BIA/Federal Government, paid back in full...the short short, on trust fund accounts...

American Indians, had thousands/millions of dollars of resources on their land, federal government came in, and said, they would handle the money, financial aspect of selling land/resources, and the fed government would hold the money earned in "trust." Now, that money held in "trust", which is in the Billion(s) has come up missing, misplaced....

Another issue, I would like them to push through, or incorporate in all tribes, is low home mortgage loans. In short, helping american indians get housing...

[damntexdem]

27. Of course we should pay reparations.

But there is no agreement on Native American versus Indian or American Indian. Given our current diversity, we should at least say American Indian to distinguish from Asian Indian. Or how about 'Original Owners'?

[JuniperLea]

39. American Indian

Is appropriate according to a friend who is a lawyer and also an American Indian. He said that I am a Native American by virtue of my birth. I have to agree.

[turtlelowe]

115. What I want to be called

You will never be able to find one term to generalize and group together over 500 separate sovereign nations of indigenous people and over 130 separate Alaskan native villages, and I don't recommend trying. We had different languages, different cultures, different religions, and different beliefs. Given all of our differences, why is it everyone wants to see us only as one. If you must, however, the most recent politically correct term I have heard is citizen of an indigenous nation. Personally, I prefer to be called by what I am, a citizen of the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians and a member of the Paint Clan.

[geardaddy]

140. I think it depends on which nation you belong to.

Around here "tribe" is a dirty word. My Dakota friend says that he prefers Native American.

[goclark]

28. Best wishes on your thread~ I have

never been so disappointed in any discussion at DU as the one about 1 year ago.

If you sincerely want to know I would suggest that you do a Search here on the subject.

It was brutal.

It was so hatefilled that I thought that I was at www.freeper.neocon

[subutane]

33. thanks for the tip

I just watched a documentary on it and got some good ideas. Hopefully we can flesh them out here.

[populistdriven]

44. PRECEDENT: JP Morgan already paid 5 million in reparations

As Farmer-Paellmann explained in a recent press conference and rally at JP Morgan Chase headquarters in New York City, there is extensive evidence linking the bank to the enslavement of over 14,250 Africans. When, due to Chicago's Slave Era Disclosure Ordinance, the bank was forced to reveal its complicity in slavery or lose lucrative vendor contracts with the city, it admitted that 13,000 enslaved Africans were used as collateral for loans from the bank and that they had owned another 1,250 enslaved Africans.

http://www.rastafarispeaks.com/cgi-bin/forum/config.pl?noframes;read=67189

Records revealed that the Georgia Railroad and Banking Company owned at least 162 slaves, Wachovia said, and that the Bank of Charleston accepted at least 529 slaves as collateral on mortgaged properties or loans. The Bank of Charleston also acquired an undetermined number of people when customers defaulted on their loans.

After revealing that a predecessor institution in Louisiana used slaves as collateral, JP Morgan apologized for its ties to slavery, and established a $5 million college scholarship program for African-American students from Louisiana.

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=12342

Already, research has determined that several insurers were involved in providing slave insurance policies to slave owners. Deadria Farmer-Paellmann, an attorney, has discovered an 1852 circular that named some of the insurers that serviced these policies. The National Loan Fund Life Assurance Company of London distributed a circular entitled "A Method by Which Slave Owners May Be Protected From Loss" in which it named The Merchants Bank and The Leather Manufacturers Bank as institutions able to pay and adjust claims. The circular also included the names of medical examiners in Virginia, Washington DC, and North Carolina who were authorized to examine slaves and offer insurance policies. Under a typical policy, a 30-year-old slave could be insured for $500 with an annual premium of about $11.25.

The circular has exposed that Chase Manhattan was connected with slave insurance policies based upon its merger with two of the banks named in the circular. In 1920, the Merchants Bank merged with The Bank of the Manhattan Company, and in 1955 it merged with Chase. In 1904, The Leather Manufacturers Bank merged with The Mechanics National Bank, and then in 1926 merged with Chase. However, Chase is not alone, it has also been uncovered that Aetna was involved in slavery as well. In March of 2000, Aetna issued a public apology for its involvement in underwriting policies in the 1850s. Other companies include, New York Life, American Life Insurance Co., and Baltimore Life Insurance Co., which is not related to the present day insurer, The Baltimore Life Companies.

http://afroamhistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa120400a.htm

Aetna's predecessor actually insured slaveholders against the loss of their human chattels. Aetna knew the horrors of slave life, as is evident in a rider through which the company declined to make payments on slaves who were lynched, worked to death, or committed suicide.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/03/27/1017206116239.html

[subutane]

55. thanks for helping

Thank you for fact finding. I appreciate it.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

50. I say that the US should honor all its treaties with the tribes

for a start. I believe this would mean giving back large portions of US territory, like giving the Black Hills back to the Lakota People.

[subutane]

56. There you go.

Why should reparations be just monetary? Land would be a great way to give back.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

65. Of course, one can never regain a culture lost

My Choctaw friends talk of being reprimanded if they spoke their language outside the home. Christianity was thrust upon many of them and their own ceremonies were lost about three generations ago. Some have gone to the Lakota people and have been adopted into that tribe so that they can, again, have ceremony, albeit a Lakota one.

[JuniperLea]

68. That, imho, is the most heinous part

Culture, ceremony, history and traditions. We can never put it back and make it right. I support American Indian artisans and donate to their museums... America should do more of that.

[Waya]

73. There where times.....

....when ALL Tribes were forbidden their Ceremonies, when the speaking of their native language was frowned upon, if not outright forbidden.
In the case of the Lakota - the Sundance was forbidden and the Ghost Dance led to the Massacre of Wounded Knee. The Boarding School system tried to take the 'Indian' out of American Indians - make them good Christians, etc - of course, the way this was done is about the most 'un-Christian' thing one has ever heard off. Beatings, torture and rape was a commonly used tool to achieve this.

But it's coming back. A lot of people are working on it today to preserve the languages, the Traditions, the Ceremonies, the Spiritual Teachings, the Prophecies.
Of course, some is lost and will forever stay lost - a shame really, but the American Indian is still here - and will stay here, and maybe, someday, this Nation will be looking to those who are in tune with Mother Earth ....

[subutane]

82. this is what they were really after

money after all is like water to the ruling crowd, culture is what they are really all about, rather...crushing any culture it deems unworthy. But money and land given from all of us to the Tribes would be a good way to start a healing process.

[Kerrytravelers]

72. I think money continues to be mentioned because everything has a dollar

worth. Ok, not everything, but anything that the government puts their greedy little hands on. And land is indeed valued with a dollar amount. I don't think it will be possible to have a conversation about reparations without money being discussed. If I'm way off base here, explain how so that I can more easily follow the line of thinking.

[subutane]

75. nope I think you got it

A dollar basis is has to be the major part of reparations. Statements, actions and real attempts at increasing positive multicultural experiences for all of us would be a welcome addition though.

[subutane]

76. resources

http://www.reparationscentral.com/
Reparations Central is an online reparations clearinghouse that contains a significant amount of information relating to the issue of reparations for people of African Descent. Reparations Central is the premiere reparations clearinghouse linking up reparationsists and their organizations all throughout the world so more effective and unified reparations work can be accomplished.

http://www.ncobra.com/
N'COBRA, is a coalition of organizations and individuals committed to the economic, cultural, intellectual, political, social, and spiritual empowerment of black people in the USA. We are the descendants, and thus the heirs, of Africans kidnapped, transported, and enslaved in the Americas. N'COBRA is governed by its membership through its annual National Convention, Board of Directors, Board of Elders, Commissions, and chapters. Regional conferences continue the work of the National Convention and work specific to the Regions.


http://www.millionsforreparations.com/
An excellent site with a lot of current information and ways to help.

http://www.directblackaction.com/
Case Law and other issues surrounding Reparations.

[YellowdogIam]

179. Honor the 'Tribes?.. here's a start

As a descendant of the Creek Nation one way to 'honor' Native Americans would be to re-write the history books and reveal the truth about Andrew Jackson.. reveal him for the child/woman murderer he was.. eradicate his picture from our currency and deal with the lying, ugly, blood thirsty hate monger that he was in real life

[Maine-ah]

91. Instead of looking to the government

why not to the people or companies that you can prove had slaves?


example: (interesting article)

First let me say that my role in the struggle for slavery began as a law student at New England School of Law, in Boston, Massachusetts, in 1997. I went to law school specifically to develop a case for slavery reparations. I thought the case would be against the federal government for the forty-acres and a mule promised in General Sherman’s Field Order 15 during the Civil War. However, due to legal hurdles in litgating against the federal government, including sovereign immunity, I began focusing on corporations and private estates that were built on slavery, as targets for reparations demands.

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/repara30.htm



A piece of advice to go with this:

I read this whole thread b/f I decided to post anything. You need to not attack the people you disagree with, instead, try a sound argument to the point you're trying to make.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noiretextatique]

157. jim crow is an example of government sanctioned discrimination

in the form of segregation laws, and it lasted around 100 years.

[anewdeal]

93. this is how I feel

If a private company benefited from slavery then they should descendents of the slaves they owned. But what can I owe a slave? I never benefited from slavery and I don't want any of my money going to any slave descendents.

[Tenseiga]

94. 40 Acres and a Mule could be good for the economy.

Too bad you'd never find a way to do it properly.

I could spend two days writing on this, but I can't be bothered to at this momnet.

Instead, I'll leave it at this. 40 Acres is quite an asset to those who know how to use it. The mule... a cute novelty, and kids love them.

[Gamey]

95. Two racists don't make a liberal

Nor does one.

[uptownsteve]

96. Reparations

It's funny how many white Americans recoil at the notion of reparations for the descendants of the black slaves who provided the free labor which established America's initial foundation of wealth yet say nothing of the "New Homestead Act" which essentially subsidizes white people to live, buy homes and establish businesses in the Plains States.

If nothing else, why isn't there a "Homestead Act" for the inner cities?

[phikshun]

97. Being biracial has been my...

blessing and my curse. I tend to see issues (especially in regards to race) from two perspectives simultaneously. There is this vast amount of duality that comes along with it and therefore it makes it very difficult for me to come to a single stance on much of anything. With that being said, I do have some issues with reparations.

First, there is no amount of money on this earth that can appease the spirit of those who have bore the legacy of slavery. The same holds true for American Indians, Japanese Americans, women, and every other group that varied from the White European Male mentality. (You have no idea how much I hate using terms like "White European Male") Money is not the solution to every problem and I've thought long and hard over reparations for many years and have come to the conclusion that it would do more harm than good.

I don't want any part of blood money. I hate the notion of "owning" land. Land does not belong to people but to the earth and therefore it has no inherent value except to be priceless. A mule would be useless to me because I don't believe in owning animals. At any rate, these are all things that make me a bit uneasy, even if I did want to own land and animals and the whole nine. It would feel like "hush money"...money or land or livestock that the government or private entities are giving me to be quiet about America's history and my history. I'm not one to be silent.

I think there is a far better solution which involves American History. Changing the history books would go much further toward atoning for the past than offering me a check. Through education, true education that has not been whitewashed or altered to make those involved seem like anything other than who or what they were, we have a chance to change the future by remembering the past. We've learned nothing...or very little from it and are in a constant spin cycle.

What we need is an evolution not a revolution. When you bring the truth to the pages of our youth, you open their eyes, you give them all a culture and all the opportunity to make a genuine difference. I don't understand why we have Black History Month or Black history courses in high schools and colleges across the country. This is American History, things that when robbed from the general history textbooks leave us all robbed. We can no longer remember the past, the atrocities of man or the goodness of him. We have a duty to educate ourselves and to pass on that sense of freedom which comes from the truth.

This is an issue which tends to bring out the worst in people. It leaves them feeling threatened and unheard. There is a flow of deep-seeded racism which flows in this topic and always will. The truth is this country has a lot for which to apologize. I'm not here to compete with anyone for the title of the "worst". This is a place to look honestly at yourself and at your beliefs and decide where you stand. I know I'm preaching, but I don't know to whom...just putting it out there I guess (and I'm certainly not trying to attack anyone). I suppose I just want to say congrats on having very few flames fanned while people were still being open about their beliefs.

I know this is long but I'll add only one more thing and that's a book to read. Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong by James W. Loewen

[moose65]

98. I agree

Your post is very insightful and you are correct: the way we teach and learn history needs to be changed. "Lies My Teacher Told Me" should be required reading for every American.

[turtlelowe]

116. Telling a more accurate history helps, but

it does nothing to address the immediate poverty and oppression still prevalent in Indian Country. I don't know you or anything about your experiences or your familiarity with reservation life. But let me tell you a little about me and my experiences. I am a citizen of the UKB Cherokee and a member of the Paint Clan. I was raised in a traditional Cherokee home and grew up in the poverty known to most indigenous people. Having been exposed to reservations all of my life, I know firsthand of the lack of opportunity and poverty there. More accurate history books will help but mean little when stacked against immediate needs for food, shelter and access to health care.

Your post does raise an interesting point though, how we can ultimately overcome many of the racial issues this country faces by incorporating inclusive history. Good idea.

[index555]

130. but the American Indians have found a way !

Casinos! build a casino on your reservation and let the white mans greed do the rest!

On a more serious note , no, I do not support reparations for the mistakes of generations long gone. That is the kind of "we want revenge for your ancestors misdeeds" thinking that is the root cause of many of the problems around the world today.
look forward , not back.

[vincent_vega_lives]

143. I agree

The best thing we can do is learn from past mistakes and make sure they never reoccur.

It's all in the education.

[moose65]

99. There are SO many things to consider....

Sure, the idea of reparations for slavery sounds good, especially to us liberals, but.... WHO gets to decide who gets the money, and who pays? If the government pays out of tax money, then descendants of slaves are getting taxed to pay themselves. There is no way that this country would ever stand for a tax on one particular race (whites) to pay reparations. And even if the reparations came from everyone's tax dollars, I don't understand the fairness in that. What about whites whose ancestors were abolitionists? Whites whose ancestors came here AFTER the Civil War? Should Vietnamese and Cuban immigrants from the 1980s pay? Should white immigrants from Eastern Europe be taxed to pay for something they may have never heard of?? How would the recipients prove they were descended from slaves? Do blacks with some white ancestors only get paid half? What about blacks whose ancestors came here after the Civil War? Blacks whose ancestors came from Haiti (they were slaves, but not slaves in the US)? Does Oprah deserve reparations? Does Michael Jackson? Slavery existed here before the United States existed. Shouldn't England, France, and Spain also be liable? I just don't understand how it could be done fairly and as others have said, no amount of money is going to ease suffering and eliminate racism from this country. And after the reparations are paid, would we still have Affirmative Action and other programs to help African Americans? Where does it end?

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

100. When ever this is brought up

I always ask who pays what and who gets what?

So would someone who has no ancestors in the US before the civil war have pay anything I wouldn't think they would?

What about someone who had ancestors here in the US but didn't own any slaves would they have to pay?

What if some who had a partial percentage of their family tree here who owned slaves but the other percentage came after the civil war, would they have to a certain percentage?

Now who get what?

if someone is of bi-racial would they get a percentage based on the percent of having ancestors that where slaves?

Here is a tough one, what if some had ancestors that owned slaves, but also had ancestors that where slaves, would they have to pay half, get half or would their situation be considered even steven?

[iraqifreedom2006]

101. just move on already!!!

Slavery was bad, very bad. Taking indian land was also very bad. No amount of money is ever going to fix what was done. We need to learn from the past, not repeat our mistakes, and just move on. As long as this dicussion is going on we will always have racial and ethnic differences.

[Broken_Hero]

111. Money, in the case of American Indians

can fix a lot of wrongs, and start the American Indians, down a bright, growing path. Money, to IHS can help take care of American Indian health issues, money to fund American Indian Colleges/K-12 schools, can improve the education levels of Amerian Indians, so they can better themselves. Money, can do a lot of things...make things right, for brutality in the past, no. But, to help a nation of people, in the present day, yes, money can help a lot. Like I mentioned above thread...the federal government allocates 3,900 dollars per year, for prisoners, yet, they allocate 1,900 dollars to IHS for every American Indian...its not a pretty picture...to me it shows...

The USA cares more about their scourge/gutter trash/criminals of their prison system, than American Indians. I know thats not the case, but actions, do speak louder than words...

[noiretextatique]

156. it's not the discussion that CREATED racism

it was the racism. how can you "move on" if you can't discuss the subject? and isn't that what the republicans said after they stole the election?

[IrishPagan]

112. Is the son responsible for the sins of the father?

And where does it stop?
My Irish immergrant ancestors where treated worse than any other segment of American culture at the time, including slaves, who were vieiwed as "valuable property". It took an act of congress, in a resolution, to ensure the eradication of descrimination in the workplace and housing toward Irish Catholic immergrants in the mid-1800's.
Oriental immigrants where not allowed to vote until almost the 20th century, and recieved no such help from those hallowed halls of power.
Yes, slavery was, and still is in other countries today, a reprehensible institution. And yes, there are many decendants of slaves alive today.
But is anyone checking their ancestral roots to ensure that that person is indeed decended from a slave? Is anyone even bothering to check to see if that person is a decendant of a black slave owner? Or are reparations handed out willy-nilly to any black person who asks?

[Brewman_Jax]

113. Pure lie

the Irish in North America were not subjected to genocide, like the Indians, nor codified discrimination and chattel slavery, like black people. That "act of Congress" doesn't exist because the Irish became white and it never happened. Cite your source, if you can.

Funny thing, I can't cite the last time that any Irish were lynched, dragged behind trucks, or had crosses burned on their lawns because they were Irish.

[turtlelowe]

117. Interesting little fact

Indians were not recognized as citizens of the U.S. until 1924. I mention this because of your interest in outlining congressional acts aimed at ending discrimination. 1924, in the grand scheme of things, that wasn't that long ago.

Also, you might be interested to know that in the 60's the prevalent method of educating Indian people was to educate the Indian out of them. My mother attended an Indian boarding school administered by the federal government. Because of assimilation policies at that school she did not want us to speak Cherokee in public, for fear of retaliation. What must have been done to her to make her so fearful. I don't want to think about it.

The thing you need to understand, the history of Indian oppression is still alive and well and federal programs that created this oppression didn't end all that long ago. There are still modern day survivors of this type of cultural genocide. Why don't we discuss the sterilization programs of Indian Health Service up until 1980 in which stole the ability to have children from many Indian women without their consent or knowledge. The information is there, if you dare to look.

[jeffrey_X]

119. Wow..great logic.

Reparations aren't about a direct link to who is/was a decendant of a slave or slave owner. It's about creating a level playing field in which you currently have an advantage.

There are environments and conditions which still exist today that are the direct by-product of slavery, segregation, hate and racism. Just go visit all of the impoverished inner-city areas and trace back decade by decade how and why they were created in the first place and why they continue to exist today.

Sounds to me like you are bigot trying to make excuses.

[jacklambert]

120. Reparations are another term for wealth-redistribution...

We are always looking for different ways to bring the bottom up and slow the top from rising anymore. Reparations is one way of doing that.

But there are already reparations in place that help the African-American and the Native American advance in this European-American-centric society. Welfare, Indian Reservations, jobs programs, education programs, family-assistance programs, etc. are re-distributing wealth or repairing past injustices.

Take a look at the money (aid) that was distributed among Katrina survivors. Much was spent on legitimate necessaties. Others were spent on lapdances, handbags and vacations. Would reparations money result in the same misdeeds??

If so, there would be no problem solved.

And would we pay money to every African-American and every Native American born in this country from now until eternity?? Or would only the people alive today be eligible for reparations. Twenty years from now, won't affected peoples be demanding another round of reparations for those who weren't alive during the first round??? Clearly, things in our society will not be "repaired" just by giving people a lump sum of money.

Oh what a mess reparations would lead to. What a mess.

[index555]

148. "reparations" are about trying to hold dead politicians to a promise

as if a politician has never told a lie.
perhaps we should attempt to hold every politician to his /her word whether they are alive or dead? give me a break.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

121. Absolutely not, for the following reasons.

:- Determining a formal system for who is and isn't entitled to how much "reparations" is completely impossible: it would entail finding out the ancestry and ethnic origin of everyone in the US, and many people beyond. There'd be all sorts of issues about whether people who's ancestors, or most of whose ancestors, had arrived post-slavery had to pay or where entitled, and so on. So it's utterly impossible, even if it were a good idea.

:- Once you start, you can never stop - you'd have everyone coming forward claiming race-based compensation for some persecution of their ancestors - interned Japanese, Jews forbidden to immigrate from Germany in the thirties, Chinese labourers imported and exploited in the nineteenthish century, and so on.

:- The notion of taking money from poor people and giving it to rich ones is morally repugnant, I think. Sure, *on average* the descendents of slaves are poorer than the descendents of slave-owners, but that's by no means homogenously true.

:- Taking money from the rich and giving it to the poor will have a similar effect to such "reparations", due to the above correlation. Progressive taxation will have all the benefits of "reparations", and none of the drawbacks.

:- It's a very basic legal principle that property legally aquired in good faith is the owners, even if it was stolen somewhere back along the line. If my father steals something from your father, and I inherit it legally on his death, it's mine by right. This is a vital principle, because otherwise I can never be confident that anything I have won't be taken from me at any time, even if I've done nothing wrong in aquiring it. "Reparations" would be a flagrant violation of this principle.

:- It would be disastrous for race relations in the US - few things would inflame one race against another more than such a flagrantly and unfairly discriminatory piece of legislation, and the result would set race relations in America back 35 years.



The idea is both practically absurd and morally wrong. Instead of policies designed to benefit one race at the expense of another, what is need is policies that will benefit the poor at the expense of the rich, irrespective of race.

[fortyfeetunder]

122. Regarding other groups receiving reparations....

":- Once you start, you can never stop - you'd have everyone coming forward claiming race-based compensation for some persecution of their ancestors - interned Japanese, Jews forbidden to immigrate from Germany in the thirties, Chinese labourers imported and exploited in the nineteenthish century, and so on."

Here are the facts:

Interned Japanese-Americans received reparations from the Clinton administration (about $20,000) and a formal apology for the internment.

German Jews victimized during the Holocaust are receiving reparations in the form of checks from the German government.

So what's the issue?

[Houtxguy]

124. and they should not have have

The US Government should have given reparations to the Japanese.
(This is a 1/2 Japanese German American) :)
It opened the door to all sorts of oddball claims.

[Vorta]

126. apples and oranges

<I>Interned Japanese-Americans received reparations from the Clinton administration (about $20,000) and a formal apology for the internment.

German Jews victimized during the Holocaust are receiving reparations in the form of checks from the German government. </I>

Correct me if I am wrong here: the only Japanese Americans and German Jews actually received restitution, not reparations. Simply being a Japanese American or a German Jew (or descendant) didn't qualify one for restitution. You had to have a valid claim for property, personal, or business losses due to a seizure or loss of property.

There is a huge difference between that and the concept of slavery reparations. The internment of ethnic Japanese citizens of America was illegal and unconstitutional when it was done. Slavery was neither illegal nor unconstitutional. The exception to this difference might be a free person who had his property or freedom taken illegally, and whose descendants can prove who he was, what he had, and who took it from him.

The government giving out reparations is the same as you and I paying others for something that happened to their ancestors 150 years ago. So how exactly would reparations be apportioned to those persons of mixed race? IS a mulatto going to pay himself?

As long as we are rectifying the crimes of one race upon another, isn't turn about fair play? Do you want to go there?

[noiretextatique]

162. the reason slaves never got reparations

is the same reason their children didn't get reparations and the same reason the LIVING victims of the tulsa race riot will never see a dime of the property stolen from them. it's racism...plain and simple.

[miscsoc]

190. well said

clap clap clap

[Houtxguy]

123. No way

>>Personally I feel that Reparations should be paid for slavery and for America's treatment of Indians. Yes I said Indians because many Indians feel that the term Native American is a derogatory one.

America benefited and prospered from the mistreatment of Human Beings. Much like what is happening now with "illegal aliens".

What are your feelings?
>>

Are you crazy.
Why should we pay reparations to people who didn't exist when these so called offenses took place.
Most people here aren't even direct descendants of those 'offenders'.

Lets look at your case.
1. Indians. I often wonder what happened to conquers rights. Might makes right? Don't be an apologist America expanded and took the land it saw as its manifast destiny. This country would not be as great as it was if our forefathers didn't take what was necessary.
If you do this then should the Gauls (Germans and French) sue the Romans (Italy) for the Roman Empire expanding its territory at the expense of them?
Look to be brutally honest, when two cultures encounter each other they clash and the weaker culture loses and gets assimilated. Thats what happened to the Indians, Aztecs, and all others.

2. Slavery. Nobody alive to make a claim. Case closed. If your really worried then they can/ have qualified for generic assistance.

3. 'Illegal Aliens' They choose to come over here. They are not be mistreated. If they are being mistreated then they can simply stay. In fact they are draining social services. Think of the hospitals along the border that are forced to close because of illegals not paying for services. But, if your really worried then maybe the fence will keep them out.

[fortyfeetunder]

125. There is no point in arguing with you

Guess you got an overdose of Anglo-centric history without hearing the other side of the story....from those who were disenfranchised for centuries.

I'll let you live in your fantasy....

[Vorta]

127. What an arrogant thing to say.

[index555]

131. "No point in arguing"

That means you have no logical ,meaningful arguments to give.
Guess I'll let you live in Your fantasy....

such statements as the one you made show an amazing degree of self-righteous arrogance.

[noiretextatique]

159. why didn't america ever pay the ex-slaves when they were alive?

the same reason why the LIVING victims of the tulsa, ok race riot will never get a dime.
white folks didn't and don't want to pay for their crimes, and they still have the power not to.
it's always double-talk, excuses, strawmen, and denial.

[crumb77]

189. In a perfect world

it would be nice to see that kind of peaceful humanity in our government but the reality is half of this country harbors deep feelings of hate and prejudice. Any impact on social reform that clearly addresses the line between different races may prove counterproductive. The Last thing minority groups need is another excuse for whinny closet-racist conservatives to spew out hate vomit, attribute everyone's problems to minor ties and possibly set back the civil rights movement by decades. I think the best thing to do is to further distance ourselves from the idea that different races in a society need to be any type of focal point in government policy.

[Infinite Hope]

128. Big mistake for 3 key reasons:

1)Cause racial tensions that overall have been on a healing trend.
2)There's no way to verify who is actually a descendant of a slave because African-American ancestry is among the hardest to trace. Further, you'd have to allocate it evenly in the fairest scenario. For example, $1 million per former slave. One family might have double the branches of another and not only is that impossible to trace, but even if you could, it'd cause unequal distribution among descendants today. Put simply, impossible genealogy makes for impossible reparations. What about those who are 25% of slave descent, but they might not know. Those who are 50% of slave descent, do they get half? But do they sometimes share equal consequence of their heritage? Do you allocate based both on ancestry AND based on suffered consequence?
3)That money would come out of the Treasury and inevitably lead to cuts in the very programs the neediest people of African/slave descent rely upon. Are they really gaining anything then? Especially those who need it the most and have suffered the most from their ancestors' legacy? It seems they'd suffer the most. Not to mention the increased taxes that result and the economic harm it causes, thus bringing further negative consequence to their economic situation. Economic programs and Affirmative Action are reparations for the harm left by the legacy of slavery.

[NOLALady]

153. It is not hard

to determine which ancestors were enslaved.
It's is hard to find info about them before 1870 if you don't have oral history. It is also quite difficult to determine their country of origin.

Reparations? (Too much like right) It's not going to happen, so I don't think much about it much one way or the other.

[IDARNG_Loki]

136. Why should I...?

Why should I pay for a mistake that my ancestors did over a century ago? I didn't make them do it, nor could I have prevented it. Plus I wouldn't have to pay since my family was a poor family and didn't come to America till the mid-1800s.

[noiretextatique]

160. since when are YOU the US government?

why should anyone pay for a lot of the horrible things our government does, like the war in iraq...like some many other wars. i am black, that means my tax dollars would go to reparations too, and i'd rather see that happen than fund more corporate wars.

[jody]

137. Reparations for all who were sold into slavery regardless of race? n/t

[Donald Ian Rankin]

142. I think that paying reparations to anyone who's been sold into slavery is an excellent idea.

The US already does that.

Paying reparations to people some of whose distant ancestors were sold into slavery is a very different matter, though.

[jcrew2001]

141. Stock Options

I look at reparations as giving the workers/Slaves stock options for working for the company that they helped create. Slaves contributed to the economy of the South and to the nation of USA and built the foundations for what we are today. Some companies who used slaves to build buildings, etc. have already paid out reparations.

[vincent_vega_lives]

144. What about Black Americans who descendants came

from Jamaica or Haiti? Would they have a claim?

[wickedcity]

145. Most whites...

Have never oppressed anyone. Most blacks have never been oppressed.

"Technically, advocates of reparation are not asking whites to pay the debt, but for the US government, which functioned during slavery and operates today as the same organization, to do so. That's the continuity that matters."

...and the government gets its money from where?

[noiretextatique]

158. the people, including black and indian people

i'd settle for every single cent paid in taxes by black americans during the jim crow era to every goverment entity...city, county, state, and federal...that enforced (and forced people to live under) jim crow laws. it was techincally legal, but totally immoral.
did you hear that yet another bank is being sued for discriminating against black customers re: mortgage interest rates? i bet people who have to pay more for housing and services because of their skin color find that very oppressive.

[Chulanowa]

176. Most whites are the beneficiaries of oppression, however

If only by the fact the overwhelming vast majority of them live, work, and eat from stolen land.

if you live east of the Missisippi, there's a pretty good chance that at least part of your town's infratructure was built by slaves, be they generational slaves or debt slaves. New York and Washington were practically built from the first stone to the last by African slaves.

[samscafe]

147. Well....

Who gets paid? Who's families were involved in the trading? Most trade was initiated by African tribes.....Which European countries will be involved? Many Muslim nations still engage in slave trade. Do we stand up to them at the same time? What about sex slave trade in Asia (today)???

[one more state]

149. Irish and Italians

I think the Irish and Italians should be paid reparations also. They are still discriminated against as drunks and criminals. I think Hawaii, Puerto Rico and Guam should be given back. The best solution may be to divide the country up.

[skippysasquirrel]

150. no way

my family immigrated to America in the 1880s, so they clearly never owned slaves. furthermore, no one alive today ever owned any slaves, and there were never any slaves owned by the federal government, so who should pay?

these questions don't come up in england or spain or france. and why not? because they beat us to the punch by 30 years?

[jeffrey_X]

151. That's not the point....

Do you think we are stupid enough to think someone might be around who was a slave?

Ask the did who grows up in the inner city ghetto if his environment is a direct link to slavery. Slavery caused a horrible series of events in which we still see the ramifications.

slavery ---> jim crow/segregation --> civil rights issues --> modern day issues (driving while black, inner city ghettos, etc.)

[noiretextatique]

161. the disconnect is a privilege

of not having the experience yourself, i.e., being white in america.

your post illustrates the essential reparation dilemma beautifully.

slavery--black people had no rights
jimcrow/segregation--separate and unequal: the law of the land
civil rights--after 500+ years, black people won the rights of full citzenship
modern day--black people finally have the social and political capital to raise the discussion of reparations.

reparations is an issue now because it could not be an issue before now.

[Turbineguy]

152. In my High School Economics class

The instructor asked "Who paid the price for World war II?"

Since he had been in the first wave in the Normandy invasion I smelled a trick question. His answer: "Those who fought it."

[noiretextatique]

155. absolutely agree

but i don't think they will ever be paid because too many white americans are against it.

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

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[noiretextatique]

164. sure...talking about reparations makes white people more racist

NOT. the reason slavery existed in the first place, and the reason reparations were never paid to the living victims is because of racism.
america needs to face its racist past and present and stop allowing fear of racism to continue its pattern of denial and avoidance of the issue, which is STILL a problem.

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

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[ChelseaCenior]

167. I Don't Deny

How the Indians were treated when the settlers came here was deplorable, however, Those alive now did not endure or take part in committing any of these acts. I'm sorry for the way these people were treated, but I don't see why we should pay them now for the loss of people they would never have known existed were they not killed, and many of them likely don't know of who was killed, only that their people were.

[sipping radicchio]

169. I am mixed about it: one the one hand, I understand what you are saying

and if you look at these major corporations, many began through the exploitation of other human beings; namely, Natives and Africans. On the other hand, there is no one who was directly, 100% affected by these actions, unlike the Japanese during WWII. Also, how would we figger out how much to dole out? In that case, I would like to do the whole "40 acres and a mule" number rather than hand out checks.

[DMCrealist]

177. Reparations a react of hatred.

We must look at the logical reality here. As far as I know, no
one paying taxes these days has ever owned a slave or taken
away land from an American Indian. We can't go back in time to
punish those responsible for these terrible acts. We,
therefore, must move forward.

There isn't a sole alive that hasn't had freedoms denied or
have property taken against their will.
The truth of the matter is, a strong argument can be made that
income taxation is theft, a form of slavery. When one has his
property taken against their will, forced to work for months
just to produce for the governmental plantation, they can feel
enslaved. That argument has been made, mostly by libertarians
& conservatives, but who is to say they don't have a right
to feel violated?

For years, the Democrats were the party that challenged the
injustices of all mankind. It seems that we stood for a color
blind society. These days, we are coming across are haters of
anything Christian or white. Doesn't that make us the
violators then? When we attempt to punish those who have done
nothing wrong for the wrongs of others, don't we then become
the violators?

[jcarterhero]

178. I'm all for that

But I'm not sure how to do so.

[ffellini7080]

180. The native Americans should be given help

But I'm iffy regarding reparations.

[Fire1]

181. I'll take my forty acres and cash for the mule. Make that

small bills, please.

[PeaknikB]

182. If blacks get reparations so do indentured Irish and Scotts taken to this country

It is only fair. The whole reason they brought in Africans in large numbers was due to Bacon's Rebellion. I would also like reparations for them turning away Jewish people during WWII and sending them back to Europe. But judging from the posts in the Israel section DU is probably happy the Jews were sent back.

Oh yeah, how are you going to prove your ancestors were ever slaves and not one of those slave owning blacks or a more recent immigrant? Reparations are a pipe dream.

[Name removed]

184. Deleted message

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[Happy Friend]

186. Chapelle" Show

His take on reparations was satirical, but not exactly purely sarcastic IMO. The black underclass is the product of innumerable historic injustices. We should work to rectify this, but giving everybody a lump sum seems like a bad idea. A lot of people would spend their money foolishly and in ways that really reinforce Middle (White) America's racism.

Not everyone of course, but still...

[NOLALady]

187. I'll bite.

It doesn't take much to reinforce Middle (White) America's racism. So, why should anyone give a crap about their perceptions?

A lot of people may spend their money foolishly. A lot of people may spend their money wisely. Just as Middle (White) Americans may choose to spend foolishly or wisely. Why should anyone care how one chooses to spend their money?

The 40 acres and a mule was not based on whether the mule was used foolishly or not. It was offered as a way to right injustices.

[NiloTheAngryLatino]

188. I recently did a show on this topic and ..

If you want to hear Liberal Talk radio Check me Out!

http://niloradio.podOmatic.com

You can also hear me live 8:30pm to 10pm E.S.T by going to WWW.NiloRadio.com

Also contact me on Twitter and Facebook.

Twitter: http://twitter.com/NiloAngryLatino

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/NiloTheAngryLatino

[Glassunion]

192. Personally I do not like it.

1. Who should pay me? Is it the taxpayers? The corporations?
2. I am of mixed race. Do I only get a 50% payment?
3. Above all, it seem like a hand out.

My wife and I earned everything that we have. I don't need some smiling politicion or CEO patting me on the head and handing me money like I'm a good dog.

On top of that the money will come from people that never owned a slave and in all likelyhood don't agree with slavery.

I think reparations are more for needless "white guilt" than compensation for a wrong.

[DLine]

193. Speaking as someone with Native American ancestry...

How is Native American derogatory and Indian isn't? Both were labels coined by white men.

[popsicle ricky]

195. Reparations

I thought it was the best idea in 2008, the financial meltdown. What a way to stimulate the economy!

It is also the right thing to do. The enormous disparity between white and non white wealth is mostly due to racists housing policies that continued, by law, until 1971.

[Name removed]

196. Deleted message

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[Quartermass]

197. I'm Cherokee

What about my reparations for The Trail of Tears?

[Mazdak]

198. I am in favor.

And we shouldn't let people weasel out of reparations with the "my family came here in the 1900's" nonsense.

The consequences of the white-lead slave trade were not just one race subjecting another race to slavery. Its effects are shown today in the form of white privilege: discrimination, underdevelopment, psychological consequences, and economic disadvantage through a historical lack of generational accumulation of wealth, coupled with institutionalized mechanisms of oppression. White Wealth, and thus white privilege was built on the backs of slave labor.

http://dailyuw.com/news/2008/aug/17/us-apology-for-slavery-apparently-not-front-page/