Now that it's over I just want to say something about the pope.

[Liberal Veteran]

I know a lot of people are beside themselves and basically are encouraging people to not say anything untoward about the man. I have done so out of respect for those who felt some kinship with this man, but in the future, it would be nice to think about those of us who have felt the sting of bigotry from the Vatican in the last few years.

Can you imagine how it feels to have someone tell you shut up and be respectful of someone who just a few weeks ago called your relationship an "ideology of evil"?

Sorry, but my memory of this man I am supposed to respect has been tarnished not only by my last memory of him calling my 15 year relationship "evil", but also years of increasing human suffering from the lofty chapel of the Vatican by opposing simple measures to help stop the spread of AIDS which has killed millions in Africa.

On second thought, I am not sorry for saying so. I held my peace until the burial, but I didn't do so out of any respect for the pope, but for those who I consider friends asking us to be silent. But it's a bitter silence for those of us who have been on the wrong side of the Vatican's favor to be asked by allies to stifle ourselves.

[smoogatz]

1. Pope Still Dead

Film at 11.

[Book Lover]

2. I know Hitchens can be a real

schmuck, but maybe you'd be interested in reading his take, which mirrors your (and mine, to be frank.)

http://slate.com/id/2116443/

[saltpoint]

24. I agree with you on this article -- Hitchens has got it nailed.

He can be startlingly refreshing on key issues, and I appreciate the way the man zeroes in on his topic.

I'm glad you posted this, Book Lover.

[Pacifist Patriot]

30. Great article. Thank you.

[Marnieworld]

3. What is unforgivable

is how he handled the sexual abuse by the clergy. I haven't watched ANY TV coverage of this event because praising someone who let this happen as well as the other hateful things that you mentioned just infuriates me to no end. Too often no one criticizes words or actions if connected to religions.

[Pacifist Patriot]

9. I haven't watched any coverage at all either. The funny thing...

is that I had two people contact me asking if I would videotape the funeral for them since they would be away. They assumed because I am in the ministry that I would be following the story. I wasn't even aware the funeral was scheduled for this morning until after I woke up and it was all over.

[The Doctor.]

4. The World will grow up.

It may take a while, but should the human race survive it's chaotic adolescence, there will be real love.

We may not be around to see it, but I have faith.

[Pacifist Patriot]

14. Me too.

[Warpy]

5. As part of the half of the human race who was most oppressed

by the man's misogyny, I'll echo that. I think Clinton said it best, that he'd have a mixed legacy, at best.

He was in a position to be so much better than he actually was. I think that is what a lot of us will remember most about him. Given a stage and an opportunity, he chose to pursue the worst policies the church had to offer to women, to gays, and to people at risk for HIV.

[Pacifist Patriot]

6. I understand the sentiment of showing respect for the dead, but...

I've never understood why expressing true feelings is a sign of disrespect.

I agreed with Pope John Paul II's position on the death penalty and the justness of the U.S. invasion of Iraq. That's it. I respect his right to his opinions and the consistency with which he presented his convictions. However, I feel most of them were wrong and anti-human. I don't see why I need to refrain from saying that simply because he drew his last breath.

I don't see anything that you would have to be sorry for whether you said it today, yesterday or two weeks ago.

[asjr]

11. Now I will say something. Why did they have

to lay him out in a Santa Claus suit?

[Pacifist Patriot]

13. Sorry, but I had to chuckle at that one...

I avoided all coverage of the spectacle. Now you have left me with a very interesting mental picture.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

16. The thong was at the cleaners'? n/t

[Meldread]

39. LOL.

That's what I told my mother. "Have you seen his body yet? It looks like they dressed him as Santa Claus."

[OldLeftieLawyer]

15. Respect for the dead?

Screw the dead. I'm more concerned with respect for the living.

That's never been a concept that's burdened the Catholic Church, of which I am a survivor. That Cardinal Law - he of the "giving shelter to pederast priests" role - was in the forefront at this joker's funeral tells me all I need to know about the state of the Catholic Church these days.

Faith is one thing. Submitting to the arbitrary, unjust, and punitive oversight of a massive and evil corporation is another thing entirely.

[Pacifist Patriot]

18. I said I understand the sentiment.

My personal philosophy is something entirely different.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

19. Oh, I agree with you

Read my post. I was hardly disagreeing with you.

[Pacifist Patriot]

20. Sorry about that. A 22 month old knocked my keyboard...

into submit mode. Sensitive laptop buttons.

About that personal philosophy I mentioned. I believe...

Our immortality comes from our deeds and our words. As far as I'm concerned what we do and say follows us after death. If I agree or disagree with someone that doesn't change because their soul has moved on, their monad has reincarnated or whatever.

Yes, you and I are definitely not disagreeing.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

28. Walking the walk

That's all that matters.

Peace, peace, and more peace to you........

[Warpy]

27. My reticence over the past 6 days wasn't respect for the man

but respect for my fellow DUers who are practicing Catholics.

[Pacifist Patriot]

31. I have always considered the phrase "respect for the dead"

to encompass the feelings of the survivors, not just the deceased. I agree that it would be in extremely poor taste to make a mockery of the traditions or make unflattering generalizations about Roman Catholics. What I do not understand is why an honest appraisal of someone's life constitutes disrespect. I don't think it is remotely disrespectful to Catholics to say I agree with his stance on the death penalty but found his record with respect to homosexuality appalling. My feelings are no different today than they were yesterday or two weeks ago.

[Kikosexy2]

7. I left...

the Catholic Church many many years ago and organized religion altogether. Don't get me wrong I always will believe in God and Jesus but I just find there's an underlying evil in all sects of religion as well hypocrisy. My relationship with the Almighty is between us and nothing more. I feel you. The Catholic Church and other religions need to bring itself into modern world of thinking.

[Liberal Veteran]

10. I tend to agree and if you read the Gospels.....

You will note that Jesus did not lay the foundation for a centralized, politically powerful church.

That came from the epistles of Paul which I suspect are only canon because they do grant authority and centralized power of the church never granted by Jesus in the Gospels.

[Pacifist Patriot]

The UUs are trying.

I just wish more of them would try harder. Every single one of our conregations should be a "Welcoming Congregation" without it being a separate distinction.

http://www.uua.org/obgltc/

[LostinVA]

8. I couldn't have said it better

The same people we know who have been telling us this for the last week just don't get it, no matter how much they think they do. The Pontiff just didn't say "love the sinner, not the sin." He called me EVIL. Me and my 10-year, monogamous relationship. Would people have been telling us to "show respect" and shut up if JP II had been talking about blacks, or Democrats, or even women?

[Skarbrowe]

35. The Catholic church was based on women being evil.

Ah oh. Well, it's what I believe and I'm sticking to it. This whole past week has made my stomach turn. I can't apologize for how I feel. I know that devout Catholics and people of other religions dwell on the good things about their faith. I'm glad they find solace in those thoughts. My mind and heart tell me that these "organizations" have caused more human misery, bigotry, misogyny, indirect and direct genocide than any other human tragedy. So much so, that I cannot and will not apologize for what they represent to me. I kept silent also, but I don't know if it was out of respect or anger. All I kept thinking was how foolish we all are. But, that's not true. We're not foolish, we're just human. Our only problem is that we are still not a very evolved species.

[sui generis]

12. good point

we held our peace here out of respect for our friends, not out of respect for the pope.

I will acknowledge that he did some good with his life; but he was also out of touch and judgemental and unfortunately even harmful as far as the issue of our lives and the issue of contraception's role in preventing AIDS is concerned. I'm not sure that they balance out.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions -

[mitchtv]

42. I am not sorry, I couldn't shut up

it was like a revival meeting on Du for 2 days
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=9604&mesg_id=9604
ps It's not that I lack respect, but as an ex catholic and a product of 12 years of Catholic schools , i felt a perogative to counter the "canoniztion". I think we call it devli's advocate in the process.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

17. I lack the words

to tell you what your post says to me, but I just wanted you to know that I think you must be an extraordinary human being.

Cheers, friend, and thank you.

[piece sine]

21. DU or AU???

I must have stumbled into "Atheists Underground." For a political website, there sure is a whole heap 'o religion haters here. The Pope was not of my universe -- proud Ex-Catholic here - but I see no reason in hell to trash a political website with anti-theological rants. That only turns potential supporters off.

[Liberal Veteran]

25. The Pope is NOT a theology. He is a person.

And in the context of politics and political events discussion of him is relevant.

Of course your post does underline one of the problems of these discussions: Too many people don't seem to understand the difference between being "anti-theological" and being critical of those who do wrong while hiding behind the banner of religion.

[saltpoint]

26. Agreed. If the Pope by definition is the vicar, or 'voice' --

-- of Christ on earth, then it is for us -- those with ears to hear -- to be enjoined by the dialogue.

That dialogue does not imply obedience on the part of those the Church has ostracized or neglected.

And it doesn't make someone a "religion hater."

[OldLeftieLawyer]

34. There are those of us

who object to a corporate presence getting in the way of our exercising of our religious beliefs.

[Pacifist Patriot]

29. Whether we like it or not, religion and politics are often...

inextricably entwined. Even when we practice separation of church and state. Pope John Paul II was both a political and a religious leader. Commenting on his words and deeds on a political site is completely understandable and acceptable. I'm not seeing any "anti-theological rants" in this thread, but I am seeing comments from individuals who were mistreated by people representing particular theologies. When a theology espouses unhealthy choices for our planet then it becomes political.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

33. YOU DID!!!!!!!!!!

And we're not only ATHEISTS UNDERGROUND, we're also BABY EATERS ANONYMOUS.

Some of us are also MEMBERS OF CHAMBERS OF COMMERCE.

Live in fear.

[Skarbrowe]

38. It would be nice if we could keep politics separate from religion. Sorry.

Sorry for the harsh words, but I had never brought religion into politics until this administration. I only do so in defense of what they would like to do to me as a woman and as a gay person if these religious people ever get the control over society that they once had.

For some people religion can be a frightening concept. For some people, religion can mean the loss of anywhere from mere dignity and self-respect to the loss of life.

So, unfortunately, religion does spill into the political realm and political message boards.

[saltpoint]

22. I acknowledge the profile of history-makers, even if I --

-- find disagreement with their positions, as was the case here with JPII. But with that acknowledgement comes a condemnation of the man's hateful and ignorant remarks, sustained over a long period of his reign, on GLBT issues.

======
The Pope's words on homosexuality from 1979 to 2005:

October 5, 1979: "As 'men with the message of truth and the power of God,' as authentic teachers of God's law and as compassionate pastors you also rightly stated: 'Homosexual
activity . . . as distinguished from homosexual orientation, is morally wrong.'"

September 6, 1983: incompatible] "with God's plan for human love."

December 1, 1983: Vatican-published "Educational Guidance in Human Love," which calls homosexuality both a "disorder" and a "social maladaptation." The guide also lists several
potential causes for homosexuality: "lack of affection, immaturity,
obsessive impulses, seduction, social isolation and other types of frustration, depravation in dress, license in shows and publications.''

October 30, 1986: Vatican's Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith releases the "Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons," which warns
bishops against being misled by the "deceitful propaganda" of gay activists. Stepping up the rhetoric a notch from previous statements, the document argues that even an "inclination" to homosexuality bordered on the level of "an intrinsic moral evil." In reference to the AIDS crisis the Congregation laments that gay activists continue their push for equality in spite of evidence that "homosexuality may seriously threaten the lives and well-being of a large number of people."

November 16, 1989: The pope argued that "abuse of sexuality" was one of the causes of AIDS, a remark that many interpreted to refer to homosexuality. The pope also placed himself firmly in the camp of those who opposed promoting safer sex and condom use, saying that it was immoral to promote AIDS prevention strategies "based on recourse to means and remedies that violate the authentic sense of human sexuality."

July 23, 1992: Vatican-driven Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith issued a document arguing in favor of the right to discriminate against gay and lesbian people in employment, housing and adoption of children. The document, called "Some Considerations Concerning the Response to Legislative
Proposals on the Non-Discrimination of Homosexual Persons," stated:

"Sexual orientation does not constitute a quality comparable to race, ethnic background, etc. in respect to non-discrimination. Unlike these, homosexual orientation is an objective disorder."

December 21, 1995: The Vatican published a guide for parents on their child's sex education. In addition to restating the church's condemnation of gay sex, the 66-page booklet, called "Human Sexuality: Truth and Significance," also argues against teaching anything about safer sex to prevent the spread of AIDS. The book reads in part that parents should "refuse the promotion of so-called 'safe sex,' or 'safer sex,' a dangerous and immoral policy based on the illusory theory that a condom can provide sufficient protection against AIDS."

December 28, 2003: Following court decisions in favor of same-sex marriage in Massachusetts and Canada, the Pope issued a public condemnation of same-sex marriage. "In our times, a misunderstood sense of rights has sometimes disturbed the nature of the family institution and conjugal bond itself," the Pope said.

July 31, 2003: The Pope continued his streak of interceding in American and European politics, issuing a 12-page document calling Catholic legislators who vote in favor of same-sex marriage, rights for same-sex couples or gay adoption rights "gravely immoral." The document argues, "There are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous to God's plan for marriage
and family.... Marriage is holy, while homosexual acts go against the natural moral law."

February 22, 2005: The Pope releases his last book, Memory and Identity, which includes the most virulent anti-gay language of his tenure. He argues that "It is legitimate and necessary to ask oneself if is not perhaps part of a new ideology of evil, perhaps more insidious and hidden, which attempts to pit human rights against the family and against man."
======

These excerpts, culled from BAY WINDOWS' current issue, are unfortunately just the tip of the iceberg, but nevertheless a scan of the vitriol the Church has dished out -- if I may be permitted to use the verb 'dish' -- against people it doesn't like.

If the Catholic Church wants to shepherd the flock, they'd be wiser to consider the entire flock and not just the straight folks.

[TaleWgnDg]

43. Do you have a url or other obtainable reference for . . .

"The Pope's words on homosexuality from 1979 to 2005" -- ? I'd appreciate it.

[saltpoint]

44. Hi, TaleWgnDg. Yes. The excerpts are from a longer --

-- piece in BAY WINDOWS:

It is at:

http://www.baywindows.com/news/2005/04/07/News/A.chronology.Of.Hate.The.Popes.Words.On.Homosexuality.From.1978.To.2005-916343.shtml?mkey=88330

--a hell of a long URL but the article is there in full.

The author's name is Ethan Jacobs ([email protected])

[TaleWgnDg]

45. okay . . .

.
and thanks. :hi:

[Kerrytravelers]

23. Hey, feel free to say what you will about the Pope.

I agree with Clinton that he will have a mixed legacy. He was in a position to do so much, yet clung to those age-old biased that tore apart societies for all eternity.

I think when posts called the burial traditions bizarre, that got some of our ire up. It's not about slamming the Pope, but making fun of our traditions. Instead of getting mad, I just tried to explain the traditions. Some times posters were kidding, but maybe the jokes were taken the wrong way.

But hey, as far as the Pope and his policies go, I am sorry that you ever felt censored on DU.

:hi:

[OneBlueSky]

32. I agree with your sentiments fully . . .

as I've said before, like all human beings JPII did some good and did some bad during his life . . . given his postion, both are magnified many times . . . as a "lapsed" Catholic and a gay man, I can still appreciate and even celebrate the good that he did . . . but I'm not at all unhappy that he won't be around to further perpetuate the bad . . . and that includes demonizing gays and lesbians as "evil" . . . it's his and the Church's 12th century myopia about sexuality that's evil, not homosexuality . . .

btw, I'm not really "lapsed" . . . leaving the Church was a fully informed and conscious decision on my part . . . it's my aunt who thinks I'm lapsed . . .

[xchrom]

36. i think his real leagacy will be the speech in nigeria

where he condemned the use of contraceptives.

if that was not irresponsible and reckless then reason has gone to hell in a handbag.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

37. True. Promoting policies such as those that result in death in Africa

don't represent a respect for life to me. As to the gay marriage being called "evil" thing..I've not a lot more to say on the subject.

[newsguyatl]

40. good post

couldn't agree more

[Meldread]

41. I've done the same.

I've kept silent out of respect for those who were Catholic and who were morning, for those who didn't agree with EVERYTHING he believed or said. But to the actual man: Good riddance.

He called us evil, he blamed his own pedophile priest problem on us, he was anti-women's rights, he might as well have been Pro-AIDS (he probably thought it was a "gay disease")... the guy has a lot to answer for. Sure, he did a few good things here and there but his EVIL things will have a much lasting impact.

[Laughing Mirror]

46. I tried keeping my mouth shut

But I'm afraid I wasn't respectful like you. I couldn't hold my peace. I'm glad you could.