The threads in GDP today, sparked by Biden's comments last night, have made me fucking nauseous.

[racaulk]

After reading those threads, let me see if I have this straight (pardon the pun):

For bringing up the issue of marriage equality the month before a Presidential election (in response to comments made by our very own VP candidate), we LGBT DUers are myopic, blind, stupid, fraudulent, self-centered, childish hacks, and as one DUer so lovingly put it, "selfish fucks." It's not our lives we're talking about, just a "pet issue." We run the risk of costing Obama the election (just like we did to Kerry in 2004), and we should be patient and gladly accept the scraps given to us by the Democratic Party until the time comes that our party leaders decide to actually show some real leadership on this issue. Progress is happening and we will get ours...eventually. Just STFU and GTFO, and BFD, it's just a word. By expecting a seat of equality at the table of the Party that so many of us tirelessly support, we are undermining the Obama/Biden ticket and are ushering in the inauguration of President McCain.

Do I have all of that right?

I'm so glad that the mods had the foresight and wisdom to shut down the "Best of DU" threads here in the GLBT forum, because there's not a problem with homophobia or intolerance in our little online community that needs to be addressed.

No sir, not at all.


Edited to include the "pet issue" blurb.

[LeftCoast]

1. Sorry you had to see that

I think my opinion on this subject is well-known...

Hang in there.

:hug:

[BrainStorm]

3. How about you stand up for us in GD-P?

Sorry to sound so angry, but I am fucking furious.

[LeftCoast]

7. I have been fighting this for years and I just don't care enough anymore

Ultimately the only thing that is going to change this is if the Admins decide to really do something about it. The individual posts will go if you make a big enough stink, but the environment stays the same. Year after year.

There are other liberal boards to spend your time and energy on that don't invite this kind of stuff. That's where I spend most of my energy and donations now.

[racaulk]

8. Thank you, LeftCoast.

I have seen your prior posts on this subject, and I know that we're on the same side. And believe me, I share you frustration and sense of hopelessness...especially tonight.

:pals:

[Creideiki]

47. Where are you hanging now?

I've found PHB to be much more comfortable, even though it's really a blog with active comments, rather than a real message board.

[BrainStorm]

2. I just alerted on a bigoted post

AND I am tired of being told to shut up in every election. Biden betrayed me last night. He and Palin AGREED on no gay marriage. With that, and then Obama and McClurkin, I don't know what to think.

:grr:

[racaulk]

9. Exactly!

If Biden agrees with a fundamentalist like Palin on this, then you know he's on the wrong side of the issue!!!

[QC]

14. And the post might be deleted, but the poster will remain here for years to come.

I seldom bother to alert anymore, because there's really no point in it.

In the time it takes the mods to decide whether to remove a nasty post, the nasty poster has put up eight or ten more hateful posts. Some of the hateful posts might be removed, but the hateful poster never is.

[Newsjock]

4. Bravo

I don't think there's anything else I could say that would improve on what you just said.

[racaulk]

10. Thanks, Newsjock.

I also agree with the OP you started in GDP. Sometimes it seems like Obama and Biden are going out of their way to get us to NOT vote for them. :(

[terrya]

5. I guess I need to make myself scare at DU.

I'm astounded at what I'm seeing in there tonight. I shouldn't be.

As a gay man, I sometimes get the feeling that I'm not wanted around Democratic Underground. Now is one of those times.

There are some good people here. I shouldn't give the impression that there aren't. Some good, wonderful supportive people...both gay and straight. Some of them posted in my thread about how hurt I was to hear Biden trot the "marriage is between one man and one woman" thing lasr nighr. But then, I get what I'm seeing tonight...and I just don't seem to belong in here.

[Newsjock]

6. Sigh

As a gay man, I sometimes get the feeling that I'm not wanted around Democratic Underground. Now is one of those times.

You're not the only one. But I guess I'm just a drama queen and/or attention whore for saying that. :(

I'm resisting the urge to do a GBCW.

Yes, I know there are plenty of supportive people here. But there also are many who clearly are not. Just like the real world.

[racaulk]

11. Your post makes me very sad.

Believe me, I'm right there with you with feeling like you don't belong. So many of us fight that lack of inclusiveness so much in our day-to-day lives, for most of our lives, and we shouldn't have to do the same on a message board that's supposed to be progressive and supportive of our causes.

I was so hurt and betrayed by Biden last night. I've always known his position on marriage equality, but to hear him respond to Ifill's question so definitively in the negative was painful. Biden is a very gifted public speaker, and I think he could have handled that question with a little more finesse than that.

And you're right, I shouldn't be surprised by what I saw in GDP today. It seems to be par for the course here, but seeing it over and over doesn't make it any easier to swallow, does it?

Keep your chin up. I'm sorry this happened today. :hug:

[unapatriciated]

31. You are wanted by me and mine....

i found his comment hurtful and won't ask you to "get over it" just understand we still have a lot of work to do. Like all fights against injustice it takes time and perseverance.
It has taken me years to change my parents minds regarding acceptance of their granddaughter,they never disowned her but held the belief that she would somehow "grow out of it".
They now accept civil rights but still can not reconcile "marriage" with their faith. They are good people but misguided on their stance regarding marriage. My simple response to their objection is it makes my daughter and others "Equal but Separate" that my Father understands very well, so there is hope.
I did not see the posts you are referring to or I would have added my voice of support for you.

My husband made this simple vid for me out of love, out of love I share it with you and yours.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ucqDoP2FZw

[MNBrewer]

12. We, the GLBT Community, are winning on this issue

We are standing for the possibility of FULL Equality. We must keep up standing for it, even in the face of bigoted commentary from people who think of themselves as our "allies". We are winning, and will continue to win, even if Obama isn't elected, because FULL Equality is the future. Screw Palin, McCain, Obama AND Biden and their opinions on this issue. WE are winning this one. Maybe not this year, but just think back a few years, when NO states had equal marriage rights. We are on the downhill side of this battle. Don't ever forget that!

In 20 years, Obama's opinion on Marriage Equality will be viewed as unacceptable for a Democratic Presidential Candidate.

We Are Winning on this!

[Q3JR4]

13. You're right MNBrewer,

we ARE winning.

Even if we have to drag every last one of them kicking and screaming into the future, one day soon we will be accepted as full and equal members of society with all the rights and privileges that come with it.

We're winning.

And we're doing it without the help of the Democratic party.

Q3JR4.
Silence is NOT an option.

[MNBrewer]

15. I'd go ever farther and say DESPITE the Democratic Party.

[bertman]

19. No, that is wrong. Not DESPITE the Democratic party. If it weren't for the Dems there would be no

discussion of gay rights. Period. Americans would still be in the dark ages on gay rights if it weren't for Democrats fighting the fight.

As hydra pointed out, progress is being made. It's not as fast as you and I want, for sure. But, ask yourself if 20 years ago, at the end of the reign of Reagan, you would have believed that a Vice Presidential candidate in a nationally-televised debate, would have openly and emphatically and unequivocally stated that gay Americans deserve the same rights as all other Americans, and are guaranteed them under the Constitution and we're going to see that those rights are granted.

Twenty years ago the only national media mention you ever heard of gays and gay rights was the AIDS epidemic that gays caused and how it was god's will that they would die from AIDS for their abomination.

Progress is being made, and in national political terms, it's happening rapidly.

[MNBrewer]

20. There is not a discussion of gay rights because of Democrats

There is a discussion of gay rights because of gay people demanding our rights from both Democrats and Republicans. Democrats have a very mixed record as a party on that topic.

Are Democrats better for us than Republicans? No doubt.

Are Democrats stalwart champions of our rights? No. Not entirely. Some are, some are downright Republican.

[bertman]

24. Of course, not entirely. That's a far cry from DESPITE the Democrats, which implies actively opposed

[MNBrewer]

32. I'd say a fair number of democrats ARE actively opposed to our equality.

E.g. Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Barak Obama. Now let's be clear. When I say "equality" I mean exactly that. Not "separate but equal". I mean actually equal. Fully equal. Completely equal. Totally equal. No special names for our relationships vs. their relationships.

[bertman]

36. I agree with you on that 100%. But, the difference to me is that Democrats, including the ones

you listed are working to give equality to all Americans under the law.

To me, the marriage v. civil union issue is the direct result of the religious groups that affect the thinking of probably 80% of Americans (that's a guess, but if you count the ones who aren't religious now but were raised in a religious environment and are still affected by that, I think it's close).

For those of us who are straight (but not narrow) and have gay friends/family who are "married" to their partners in every way except the state-sanctioned/religion-mandated definition, it is obvious that these people deserve to be called married because they are a couple who love each other and are committed to each other in all of the same ways as straight couples. But the majority of Americans do not YET see that. However, when civil unions are allowed and gay couples and gay families become a more visible and accepted segment of the overall population, the attitudes will change and gay marriage will be accepted as "normal".

I know that doesn't mollify you, but I think it's the political reality and should be recognized as progress, not a step backward.

[MNBrewer]

38. As a practical point

Civil Unions are NEVER exactly the same as Marriages under the law. It just doesn't pan out that way.

[keepCAblue]

41. Despite the (federal) Democratic Party

I'm proud of the work the local dems have done here in California -- Mark Leno, Gavin Newsom, Jerry Brown, to name just a few. Through the tireless efforts and self-sacrifice of many local dems, they have succeeded in making marriage equality a reality here in California.

I am not proud of the California dems who represent us on the federal level, most notably Diane Feinstein and several house members who have consistently lacked the honesty and spine to stand up for their California constituents, both gay and straight.

And of all the presidential candidates who call themselves dems, the only one I would trust, and hence vote for, is Dennis Kucinich -- he is a real Democrat, with a capital "D". His honesty and integrity reminds me of the true "mavericks" of the past. There are few real Dems today--Dems like Bobby Kennedy. Obama and H.Clinton are so apologetic and centrist, it is a joke to even suggest they represent the same political party and social ideals as RFK.

[justiceischeap]

25. And a lot of people think that if Prop 8 gets defeated

and the law is upheld, it will be a barometer for the rest of the nation.

[NorthCarolina]

28. What if AZ Prop 102 is successful though (which looks more likely than Prop 8)?

Won't that act to minimize any perceived "gain" by a Prop 8 defeat on a a national level?

[justiceischeap]

30. No 'cause it's more a matter of state Supreme Courts decisions on the issue

If California's state SC decision isn't overturned by Prop 8, then other state Supreme Courts are free to vote similarly on the matter of gay marriage.

[dickthegrouch]

35. And then we can use "Full Faith and Credit"

There is a Federal Constitutional crisis with the California having legal same sex marriages and other states explicitly refusing to honor them.

The Federal constitution guarantees full faith and credit between the states.

That's what we use to break the current anti same-sex marriage amendments.

Thanks for all the support here.

Dick

[Hydra]

16. Don't feel left out

DU and the Democratic party enjoy throwing progressive under the bus. You'd never think that equal rights and equal opportunities were somehow not a Democratic principle.

Regardless, take heart in the fact that each generation has less of a problem with you doing what's natural for you, and keep up the pressure- they'll shut up and leave you alone once they figure out that you aren't going away.

[TechBear_Seattle]

17. Yes, I believe you do have that right

And keep in mind: the Democrats are the better party with regards to gay rights. That makes me sick, too.

[jonnyblitz]

18. !!

:hi:

[Ms. Toad]

21. Forgot one -

Here's one thrown at me today, "odd time to come to DU-P and recruit for the Green Party, when NO policy shift has occurred."

[racaulk]

22. !

Yeah, that's totally laughable. Questioning Obama or Biden = recruiting for McKinney. Who here is saying that they are not working or voting for Obama?

Unbelievable. *sigh*

[QC]

23. DU is no longer a political discussion board. It is a fansite.

We must now restrict ourselves to discussing how dreamy our chosen celebricandidates are and speculating as to their favorite foods and movies.

[TechBear_Seattle]

26. I think that is EXACTLY the right way to describe it

Thank you for the illustrative turn of phrase.

[QC]

27. Thanks, but it saddens me to say that.

Hard to believe that this used to be a place where genuine progressives had smart, thoughtful political discussions.

Now we are the political equivalent of a Britney Spears chatroom.

[TechBear_Seattle]

29. DU has become a Democratic version of Faux News

If you are not a cheerleader for The Party, then you are the enemy. If you do not cleave to The Party's agenda 110%, then you are a terrorist out to destroy America.

I don't feel like I'm exaggerating, either.

[QC]

33. No, you are not exaggerating.

And it didn't get this way until the past year or so.

It's interesting: whenever I see a truly jawdroppingly bigoted or rude post, I click on the user profile. A vastly disproportionate number of those profiles show join dates of 2008.

Interesting, isn't it?

The truth is, a lot of people who poured into DU recently could not be bothered to learn anything about the culture of the board and the administration could not be bothered to teach them. We have ended up with a place that is about as civil as a Yahoo message board and about as intelligent and thoughtful as a teen chatroom on AOL.

It's a pity, because for years we really did have a wonderful community here. It's gone forever, and it's probably time for those of us who loved the old DU to clear out and leave it to the yahoos and their daily Lord of the Flies re-enactments.

[xchrom]

34. i want to applaud your sentiment

:applause:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

39. brilliantly stated

[DarkTirade]

42. I think this picture best describes what you just said.

You hit the nail right on the head. :)

[mitchtv]

37. I am personally, just hanging on here

I have beea posting since 01, but this place has changed That poster last night should have been TS'd on the spot.Who the fuck are these people?

[Creideiki]

48. I gave up months ago

I went from checking in daily, to checking in a couple times a week, and now I check in about once a week. Here's the funny thing--I'm supporting Obama (mostly because McCain is disgusting), and actually am the Precinct Committeeperson for my precinct--in one of the most critical swing states, no less. I'm walking on eggshells because Obama will still say things that make me want to have a reasonable critical discussion. I want Obama to move toward a progressive position. But we're not allowed to have reasonable critical discussion any more.

I'm beginning to think the first step is taking the country back for the Democrats, and the second step will be taking the Democratic Party back from the non-progressives.

[gaspee]

40. We're expected

To work for the party and to give them our money and to sit down and shut the fuck up.

The democrats like us no more than the republicans do. Fuck that. I've dropped out on this election. No money, no time, no nothing.

I'm sick and tired of being told my life is a pet issues.

When these fuckers here at DU who don't risk their lives every day just by being who they are in public can tell us LGBT'ers that are concerns are petty - they don't give a damn.

The only thing that will stop the violence toward the LGBT community is full equality under the law - then about 25 years or so (a generation) of living with equality as fact.

For now, it's still open season and our supposed friends don't give a shit.

Hell, I swear a good portion of DU'ers would lead the gay bashing if they thought they could get away with it. I'm making that statement with the evidence of their posts to back me up.

[DarkTirade]

43. You left out the poster who CLAIMED to be gay, yet who called us 'Stupid Queers'.

and told us we just 'don't get it'.

Despite the fact that he was being completely disengenuous from the start. No one was saying they weren't going to vote dem... people were simply expressing unhappiness with a single thing one of our candidates did. But this poster ignored that and went ahead bashing gays and GLBT supporters based on made-up information.

[sui generis]

45. yeah, I think the mods got his number though

karma, with a little help from us.

Here's a great rule of thumb: gays aren't generally against gay marriage. Pity the poseurs can't remember that.

[DarkTirade]

49. Actually, all they did was lock those threads.

That poster is still with us.

[SacredCow]

44. Business as usual, Mr. Racaulk....

Sometimes I have to check my address bar to be sure I haven't wandered over to free republic....

But I guess that's one of the biggest reasons I stay the hell out of GD- I really have enough on my plate now without reading all of that BS.

[sui generis]

46. here is what the "get over it" crowd doesn't "get":

Most of them have never had to fight for any kind of civil right that impacted them personally. Adversity? They've never faced one second of personal adversity. Halo II does not count as adversity. Fighting city hall over your parking tickets does not count as adversity.

We (most of us here) have been fighting just to be recognized as human beings for most of our life, and we have seen personally what not having rights does for us, for our communities, for our self esteem, for our humanity. For our longevity. We're not just fighting for ourselves. We're fighting for the Gwen Arraus and Matthew Sheppards and every hate crime that gets minimized or blamed on the victim. We're fighting for our friends, for our children, for the future. Our "one" issue is the many many many ways in which we can lose everything we've worked for and fought for - that one word issue refers to dozens of rights and legal protections, so it's NOT really a single-issue, and never has been.

We are Americans. We belong here, and have exactly the same "right" to have equal treatment under the law as anyone else. To say otherwise, to say "baby steps" is to say we're not quite American enough.

Well Americans fight for what's right, so let them be surprised.

I was so proud of our GLBT community here not backing down on that thread. Hats off to all of you - it's about time we stopped taking crap from the peanut gallery.

We ARE mainstream democrats and red blooded (most of us) Americans, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.