I appreciate everyone's input, and I apologize that my previous OP was not sufficiently empathetic.

[Skinner]

In hindsight, I should have spent more time addressing your concerns. As a straight male, I cannot claim to understand how you feel, but I do think I see some of the reasons why you feel angry and frustrated by Democratic Underground. It is obvious that sometimes ugly things are posted on Democratic Underground. I wish that it did not happen, and I know that it is hurtful when it does. I want to be completely clear that, like you, I am deeply offended by some of the things that get posted on this website. If you simply peruse any of the "Best of DU" threads, you will see that some very ugly things do get posted here. I can understand why you are upset. In addition, the hurt, anger, and frustration caused by such posts is compounded by the fact that Democratic Underground as a whole is not a particularly friendly and welcoming place right now because of the fighting related to the Democratic presidential primary. Even if Democratic Underground does not always seem to live up to its promise and potential, I appreciate that you have not given up on Democratic Underground -- or on the belief that this community can be better than it is right now. Thank you for that.

Broadly speaking, the issue that that precipitated the current situation is the belief that there is widespread homophobia and transphobia on Democratic Underground, along with the perception that the DU Administrators either do not care or are not doing enough to counter it. I will address that issue later in this post. But first I wish to briefly talk about the fact that there is a related issue which is contributing to many of the problems here on Democratic Underground, but which is not widely recognized or discussed. The DU Administrators now believe that this community has grown so large that our system of moderating is no longer as effective as it used to be. In short: We are using software intended for a community of hundreds of people in order to run a community that averages over than 70,000 unique visitors each day (and sometimes well over 100,000). Despite our best efforts, and the best efforts of a top-notch group of volunteer moderators, delays and inconsistencies in moderation are unavoidable. Sometimes they are relatively long delays and relatively large inconsistencies. We have been working on a complete, from-scratch overhaul of Democratic Underground for more than a year, and the upgrade is still far from complete. When we do finally unveil the new DU, I have no doubt that our new software and new system of moderating will also not be perfect. But our hope is that it will be faster, more transparent, and (perhaps) slightly more consistent. In addition, our new system will give more of the responsibilities of moderating to you, the members of the community. While the new system will not solve all of our problems, it should make you feel that you have a greater level of input in how the community is run.

Having briefly explained that, I would like to get back to the issue at hand, which is the existence of homophobia and transphobia on Democratic Underground, and how they are dealt with. I think it should be apparent to everyone that bigotry -- including homophobia and transphobia -- has always existed on Democratic Underground. To be clear, I am not excusing or justifying bigotry. But what I would like everyone to understand is that Democratic Underground is an extremely busy, open forum and we do not pre-screen posts, so unfortunately some inappropriate things are going to be posted. This has always been the case on DU, and it will continue to be the case for as long as this community exists. I wish that we lived in a world where everyone was enlightened, welcoming, and free from bigotry. But unfortunately we do not, which means that ugly posts will regularly be posted here on DU.

The only way to completely eliminate the possibility that something inappropriate gets posted here is to pre-screen all messages before they get posted. But that is not realistic. I think everyone here knows that we would suck the lifeblood out of this place if we tried it. What we do is post a set of rules, and then do our best to enforce them. Which mostly consists of deleting posts, locking threads, and banning people -- when we are aware that they are causing problems.

For the purposes of this discussion, the relevant rules are those relating to bigotry. As you know, Democratic Underground's rules do not permit bigotry, including bigotry based on sexual orientation. In practice, enforcing rules against bigotry is actually much more complicated than it might seem, for a number of reasons. We could make our job very easy if we simply deleted all posts and banned all members that expressed even the slightest whiff of bigotry. But I think that is not a practical or fair approach, and doing so would likely lead to mass bannings and members paralyzed by fear of accidentally saying something the wrong way. There is a continuum of bigotry that ranges from cluelessness to malice. If our goal is to change people's minds, I think our rule enforcement needs to recognize this continuum. I believe that if someone's heart seems to be in the right place, and if they seem to want to do the right thing, it is neither fair nor wise to throw out a reliable progressive because they inadvertently say something in the wrong way. By providing an opportunity for others to respond and educate, the clueless can be enlightened. We give them second chances, and we sometimes let their inelegantly-worded posts stay so learning can take place. But on the other end of the continuum, we do not give second chances to those whose bigotry is malicious.

So, how are we doing? As the administrator of this website, I cannot pre-emptively stop things from being posted. But I can determine how things are dealt with after they get posted here. With this in mind, I think most people would agree that simply listing homophobic messages posted on Democratic Underground does not provide a complete and accurate picture of whether homophobia is considered acceptable on this website. Simple fairness would suggest that one should also consider how such posts are dealt with by the moderators and administrators after they are posted. One can learn more about the community by considering how the vast majority of our members respond to such posts.

For this reason, I think everyone would agree that the "Best of DU" threads, while useful, probably do not provide a complete and accurate picture of the pervasiveness or acceptability of homophobia and transphobia on Democratic Underground.

In an effort to get a more accurate picture, EarlG spent a good part of the day yesterday going through *all* of the posts and threads referenced in the three original "Best of DU" threads in the GLBT forum. To be clear, we understand that this problem is not narrowly confined to messages referenced in the "Best of DU" threads, but lacking any other set of posts to systematically review we felt that the "Best of DU" threads would provide us with a broad enough set of data.

The first thing he learned is this: People post some ugly things on DU sometime. That is a simple fact that cannot be denied, and people are justified in being upset about it. There is no need for us to repeat any of the ugly, bigoted posts -- if anyone really wants to know you can find the "Best of DU" threads here in the GLBT forum and read them yourself.

But another thing he learned is that occasionally the "Best of DU" threads did not provide a fair representation of the posts they were referring to. I don't want to single anyone out, so I am not going to point to any specific posts. But there were a few cases where all context was lost, and posts were held up as being something that they were not. In one instance, a single sentence was taken from a much longer message (the message as a whole was expressing support for gay marriage), and then that single sentence was paraphrased in a way that changed its meaning. In another instance, a sarcastic post was incorrectly represented as being a straightforward expression of a person's views.

It is worth noting that in the majority of all cases, whether a post was alerted or not, large numbers of DUers replied to educate the clueless member, which is the way it should be. In some cases the moderators left posts open because they felt that it was preferable to let an inappropriate post stay and for a lot of people to express their disagreement with it. In case there is any question: You are permitted to call members on bigotry and publicly educate them, just as it is permitted to have "Best of..." threads where GLBT members can draw attention to homophobia you see. But once you start calling people names, you run the risk of getting your posts deleted or locked.

Another thing he learned is that, contrary to popular wisdom, clicking the alert link on a bigoted post makes a big difference. Of the posts referenced in the "Best of DU" threads, the most reliable predictor of whether a post will be deleted, a thread locked, or a person banned is whether anyone actually clicked the alert link. But sadly, in a huge proportion of cases -- 45 out of 101 posts -- nobody bothered to click alert, and so the post was never brought to the attention of the moderators. This leads to a vicious cycle in which the lack of alerts leads to no enforcement which leads to the perception that rule violations are being ignored by the moderators which ultimately makes people alert even less often. Which is a shame, because when they receive alerts, it turns out that the moderators have a pretty good record.

I know first-hand how overworked and tired the DU moderators are, and I feared that there could be a large number of alerts that did not receive attention. Of course, even one alert that is missed or does not receive adequate follow-up is too many, but I don't think it is reasonable to expect the moderators to have a perfect record. Of all the alerted posts, only eight did not receive adequate attention from the moderators. The vast, vast majority were given fair consideration by the moderators. Some were permitted to stay, but most most ended up deleted or locked -- and ultimately a fair proportion of the offenders ended up banned.

One area that we think could use some improvement is in our treatment of transphobic postings, specifically, we will change our enforcement of the "Ann Coulter is a man" posts. I had given moderators instructions to leave them on the board because this particular joke is so pervasive throughout the progressive blogosphere that many people don't realize it is inappropriate. We made this choice because we thought the individuals who post it would be more likely to "get it" if others explained the problem to them, rather than if their posts disappeared. That may be the case, but I now believe that the harm of letting such posts remain on the board outweighs the potential learning that could come from it remaining on the board.

Rather than try to explain everything that we learned, I think it is probably better to simply post the entire list of posts that EarlG created, along with what happened. I readily admit that our record is not perfect. But I do believe, strongly, that this is not a record of enforcement that Democratic Underground should feel ashamed of, nor do I believe it is indicative of a community that turns a blind eye to bigotry.

Thank you for taking the time to read this entire post. EarlG's data follows.



EARLG'S DATA

Threads referenced in "Best of GLBT" threads 1, 2 & 3

Total number of posts referenced in "Best of GLBT" threads 1, 2 & 3 between August 28 2007 and May 17 2008: 101

Posts that were not alerted on: 45 of 101
Posts that were alerted on: 56 of 101

Out of 56 alerted posts:

Posts that were alerted on but received insufficient attention from the moderators: 8
Posts that were alerted on but determined to be not actionable: 5
Posts that were alerted on and action was taken: 43

Or in other words: 86% of alerted posts were discussed in the moderator forum. 77% of alerted posts were deleted, locked, or the member was banned. 14% of posts received insufficient attention from the moderators.

Of 43 posts where action was taken:

Number of deleted posts, threads or sub-threads: 18
Number of thread locks: 21 (10 locking messages included public warnings for homophobia)
Note that in some cases the member was banned but the post was not deleted, which accounts for the addition discrepancy.

Members involved in all referenced posts who were subsequently banned: 18

Note that 3 additional posts (not included in the 101) that were referenced in the "Best of GLBT" threads do not seem to fit a category. They are listed at the bottom in the "Miscellaneous" section.


Posts that were alerted on but received insufficient attention from the moderators (8 of 56)

NOV 5 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2213083&mesg_id=2213083
RESULT: Post was alerted on, no action was taken (no discussion in mod forum).

JAN 2 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2575785#2576352
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2575785#2576784
RESULT: Posts were alerted on. Alerts fell by the wayside in the moderator forum, no action was taken. Member was later banned.

JAN 28 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2757341&mesg_id=2757489
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Moderators missed the point (did not consider the usage of "beard"). No action was taken.

MAR 9 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4994344
RESULT: Post was alerted on, moderators came to consensus that it should be removed but action was not taken.

MAR 16 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3017534&mesg_id=3017534
RESULT: Post was alerted on, never brought to the moderator forum.

APR 14 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3157113
RESULT: Post was alerted on, fell by the wayside in the moderator forum, no action taken.

MAY 16 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3296760&mesg_id=3296894
RESULT: Posts were alerted on, alerts were brought to the mod forum and discussed briefly, fell by the wayside, no action taken.


Posts that were alerted on but the moderators decided they were not actionable or action was unnecessary (5 of 56)

NOV 7 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2231175&mesg_id=2231584
RESULT: Post was alerted on, moderators determined it to be "borderline" and decided to let discussion proceed.

DEC 18 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2494126&mesg_id=2494510
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Moderators discussed the subthread and decided to let discussion proceed as "consciousness-raising."

FEB 21 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=7495181&mesg_id=7495511
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Moderator consensus was that the member was being sarcastic and this was not actionable.

MAR 4 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x66552#66557
RESULT: Post was alerted on. No moderator consensus that it was actionable.

APR 10 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5444620&mesg_id=5444620
RESULT: Post was alerted, moderators discussed it, decided to leave it open because member was "getting his ass handed to him" and "they're pointing out (politely) that he's full of shit."


Posts that were alerted on and action was taken (43 of 56)

AUG 28 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1684358
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Thread was locked (sex thread).

AUG 28 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1685337
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Thread was locked with message, "This is far beyond the pale, and, quite frankly, is a generalized attack against homosexuals. Do not post anything like this again."

AUG 31 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1707056
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Thread was locked (flamebait).

OCT 21 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3628257#3629769
RESULT: Post was deleted. Member was later banned.

OCT 26 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2142513&mesg_id=2142513
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Thread was locked (flamebait).

NOV 29 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2369554&mesg_id=2369554
RESULT: OP supports repeal of "Don't Ask Don't Tell." Dozens of supportive responses. Member who suggested that "It is all about sex, attraction, foxhole desires and showers..." was subsequently banned.

DEC 14 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2469154&mesg_id=2469400
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Thread was locked with the message "Homophobic."

DEC 16 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2479936&mesg_id=2479936
RESULT: (Same member as above.) Post was alerted on. Thread was locked by an administrator with the message "This is the second time we've had to lock this rubbish. Don't post it again." Member was officially warned.

Jan 2 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x62133
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Post was deleted.

JAN 7 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2618417&mesg_id=2618428
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Post was deleted. Member was later banned.

JAN 12 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4042646&mesg_id=4044895
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Post was deleted. Member was banned.

JAN 15 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=find_removed&forum=389&mid=2690207
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Subthread was deleted.

JAN 17 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4096605#4098194
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Thread was locked (flamebait).

JAN 28 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4259597&mesg_id=4259819
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Member was banned.

FEB 1 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2802980&mesg_id=2803038
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Post was deleted.

FEB 4 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4385662
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Post was locked with quote from rules ("When discussing race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, or other highly-sensitive personal issues, please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra care to clearly express your point of view. Do not post messages that are bigoted against (or grossly insensitive toward) any person or group of people based on their race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, lack of religion, disability, physical characteristics, or region of residence.") Member was later banned.

FEB 7 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2829100#2829407
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Thread was locked.

FEB 29 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4827724&mesg_id=4827724
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Thread was locked (flamebait).

MAR 01 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4808950&mesg_id=4829165
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Post was deleted.

MAR 01 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4831589&mesg_id=4833531
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Post was deleted. Member was banned.

DATE UNKNOWN, PROBABLY MAR 01 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=find_removed&forum=132&mid=4833741
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Thread was deleted.

MAR 03 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4856618#4857335
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Thread was locked with message, "'Faggot' is a homophobic slur that is not acceptable in any circumstances, even if it's in quotes."

MAR 3 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4866935&mesg_id=4866935
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Thread was locked (inflammatory).

MAR 5 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4906929&mesg_id=4907487
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Thread was deleted.

MAR 6 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=67195&mesg_id=67235
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Subthread was deleted.

MAR 6 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2969680
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Thread was locked with message, "This is counter-productive - an invitation to speculate on someone's sexuality based on their politics, rather than actual evidence. The implication than homophobia may indicate homosexuality is offensive."

MAR 9 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4982417
RESULT: Post was alerted on. Thread was locked (flamebait).

MAR 10 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5005763#5006000
RESULT: Post was alerted on, subthread was deleted.

MAR 12 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3222609&mesg_id=3223274
RESULT: Post was alerted on, member was banned.

MAR 13 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3001072&mesg_id=3001100
RESULT: Post was alerted on, member was banned.

MAR 18 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3029394&mesg_id=3030029
RESULT: Post was alerted on, post was deleted, member was banned.

MAR 21 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5186856&mesg_id=5186856
RESULT: Post was alerted on, thread was locked with message, "From the DU Rules: While specific words are not automatically forbidden, members should avoid using racist, sexist, homophobic, or otherwise bigoted terminology."

MAR 31 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3086420&mesg_id=3086688
RESULT: Post was alerted on, member was subsequently banned.

APR 6 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3113159
RESULT: Posts were alerted, thread was locked (flamefest).

MAY 14 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3285977&mesg_id=3286046
RESULT: Post was alerted on, member was banned.

MAY 16 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3294500&mesg_id=3294500
RESULT: Post was alerted on, thread was locked with message, "Please read Skinner's post on this from '04..."

APR 17 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=71638&mesg_id=71652
RESULT: Post was alerted on, subthread was deleted.

APR 17 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3172202&mesg_id=3172342
RESULT: Post was alerted on, post was deleted.

APR 22 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x7677257
RESULT: Post was alerted on, thread was locked with message "This thread starts out as homophobic...and goes downhill pretty quickly."

APR 24 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x7680671
RESULT: Post was alerted on, thread was locked with message "When discussing race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, or other highly-sensitive personal issues, please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra care to clearly express your point of view."

APR 28 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=71903&mesg_id=72583
RESULT: Post was alerted on, thread was deleted.

MAY 1 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x71359
RESULT: Post was alerted on, post was deleted.

MAY 15 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5985002&mesg_id=5985363
RESULT: Post was alerted on, post was deleted.


Posts that were not alerted on (45 of 101)

AUG 30 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1701559
RESULT: Post was not alerted on. Member was later banned.

OCT 21 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3628257#3629015
RESULT: Post was not alerted on. Member was later banned.

OCT 21 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3628257&mesg_id=3628975
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

OCT 22 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3634480#3634948
RESULT: Post was not alerted on. Member was later banned.

OCT 22 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3634875
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

NOV 27 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2353027
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

NOV 29 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2368165
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

DEC 16 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2477143&mesg_id=2481430
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

JAN 3 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3934252#3934264
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

JAN 6 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3966281#3966425
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

JAN 10 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2649999&mesg_id=2650535
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

FEB 13 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2855903
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

FEB 13 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4580002
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

FEB 14 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4581982
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

FEB 14 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4595601#4598341
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

FEB 14 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4593703&mesg_id=4596359
RESULT: Post was not alerted on. Member was later banned.

FEB 15 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4604855&mesg_id=4609868
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

FEB 18 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2886830&mesg_id=2886830
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

FEB 18 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2886830&mesg_id=2887051
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

FEB 19 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=65280&mesg_id=65360
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

FEB 20 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4683835&mesg_id=4683835
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

MAR 02 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x66465
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

MAR 12 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5035548&mesg_id=5035973
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

MAR 15 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3015182
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

MAR 15 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3015182#3015278
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

MAR 17 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3231328&mesg_id=3231328
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

MAR 19 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3033690&mesg_id=3033747
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

MAR 22 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3046111&mesg_id=3046547
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

MAR 22 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3046111&mesg_id=3047302
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

MAR 25 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=69227&mesg_id=69249
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

MAR 25 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5252627#5252908
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

MAR 28 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3076048&mesg_id=3076084
RESULT: Post was not alerted on. Member was later banned.

MAR 28 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x69580#69593
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

MAR 29 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3076048&mesg_id=3077884
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

APR 3 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3099714&mesg_id=3099714
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

APR 12 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5476176&mesg_id=5476176
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

APR 14 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3157498&mesg_id=3157559
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

APR 18 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3177990&mesg_id=3178055
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

APR 24 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=72192&mesg_id=72195
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

APR 25 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=7682411&mesg_id=7682667
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

APR 26 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5696876&mesg_id=5696876
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

APR 29 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5740358&mesg_id=5741606
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

APR 30 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3290713#3290981
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

MAY 10 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5911644&mesg_id=5912851
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.

MAY 17 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3300472
RESULT: Post was not alerted on.


Miscellaneous

AUG 28 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1678496#1679279
RESULT: Thread was alerted for non GLBT-related reasons (calling out) and was locked for continuing a flamewar.

AUG 28 2007
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1681515
RESULT: Thread was alerted for non GLBT-related reasons (calling out) and was locked for continuing a flamewar.

MAR 28 2008
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x69642
RESULT: This appears to be a reference to the whole discussion rather than a single post. The entire thread is ugly with a couple of posts removed.

[Zuiderelle]

1. It sounds like you are saying that we CAN have "Best of" threads here and point out bigotry

where we find it, as long as we don't resort to name-calling ourselves, or breaking any other rules. For that, if I'm assuming correctly, great.

I guess the point from this is that we all need to alert more.

Thanks for putting attention towards this issue. And thanks for giving us a one-stop-shopping place for all the links we wanted to highlight.

(Edit to add, I disagree with three of the five that were alerted and no action was taken. I think they should have been deleted. The last one, makes sense that you wanted it to stand as an example, I suppose. But it still pisses me off to read it.)

(Edit again to add, I don't understand why you locked your other thread. There's a lot of good info in there, and informative discussion going on.)

[Sentath]

5. Locking his other thread

I _think_ I understand why it was done.

1) it was getting a bit .. clubby? echo-y? It wasn't moving forward, it was exploring nuances.

2) There is No Way to have forced the kind of discussion restart that this response deserves without locking the previous thread.

3) Its all still there and can be accessed, read, linked to and still be a valuable resource (without continuing to stale)

=============================

And back to the main topic: My "takeaway"* at this point is that I need to hit the alert button a little more often and be able to explain WHY once I do.

TY ( :


*imagine me making finger quotes here

[Zuiderelle]

6. I understand why, it's just that locked threads frustrate me.

No matter how much one says that they are there for reference, people rarely actually go back and look at them. So, now it will just drop out of sight eventually. And not all the questions were answered in this post. But, oh well.

[Midlodemocrat]

2. As a straight, white female, I also share your inability to understand

how some of these posts are hurtful. I have learned a great deal in the last year and a half in regards to things posted here that are hurtful to the GLBT community as a whole and in particular to my DU GLBT friends.

The 'Ann the Man' thing was one of the situations where I didn't realize it was homophobic and hurtful and this is why. Whatever the reason, my writing style seems to invoke the opinion that I am a male. Especially when I post here and elsewhere the LTTE that I have written. I think I come across as having a 'hard edge' and people naturally assume I am a guy. THAT is what I thought was the Ann the Man reference until one of my GLBT friends, (I believe it was Bluebear) told me why the GLBT community is hurt by it.

In all honesty, Skinner, there are things posted here every day that I find offensive. I find the comments about religious people being inferior intellectually offensive; I find the 'I hate kids' posts offensive... you get the drift.

The difference between my feeling offended and the homophobic stuff that has been posted here is that I enjoy all my civil rights; the GLBT community doesn't. Often I will read a thread here and come away thinking, "Wow, I had no idea that was offensive", but I take it as an opportunity to grow and learn what offends and demeans my friends.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think those of us who aren't gay can't really understand the denial of equal rights and we need to work harder for the GLBT community to be welcomed here at DU.

[fight4my3sons]

3. you just put into words what I was thinking

I don't find that I can put down on paper (or into the keyboard) what is in my head as well as some that are here, so usually I am pretty quite here. Your response was pretty much exactly what was in my head. Especially the part about the 'I hate kids' posts and the working harder to make the GLBT community feel welcomed here at DU.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. thanks for the tone of this message. a lot of what you said made sense

i am still unsure about the policy regarding rallying the troops.

[FreeState]

8. I wish there was a readers digest version of that...

maybe my attention span is a little off today - but I think the gist of the post was:

• Sorry I didn't start this off the way I should have


• We need better software - DU is getting to big for the current software


• No more Ann The Man (thank God)


• Everyone needs to use alert way more than we have been

Did I miss anything?

[Skinner]

35. The moderators are instructed to use a light touch when enforcing that rule.

That rule is a hold-over from the 2004 primaries, and is kind of out-of-date. Generally speaking, if a thread is not being used to insult other people then members can post links to other posts.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

38. thanks much!

[Zuiderelle]

41. Thank you very much!

[Bluenorthwest]

7. Transparency in moderating...

This is very open, and dare I say, Democratic. I really like this as it will allow me to understand the hows and whys of this place and even others like it. Fully a mystery to me really. I'm amazed it exists, and I have no concept of how it would actually function. It will take sometime to digest it all. It will be a learning experience. The amount of time spent looking at this issue, that alone speaks volumes.
Hitting alert makes me feel like a jerk. Just in general. I do it, at times with abandon, but I feel like a jerk and would almost always rather engage instead.

I think this is enough to put a small donation into the mail without the overtly homoerotic outer envelope I had breifly thought about using as a visual commentary.

[FreeState]

10. I engage and alert

but I dont tell the poster I have alerted (per site rules). But I think its important to engage the poster or at the minimum speak up so that others that come along before the mods get to the post know that what was said was wrong/offensive. It also make a nice way of checking a post I have alerted because its under "my posts."

On a good note I alerted today and had a post removed within minutes - thank you whom ever did that.

[ruggerson]

9. Skinner, one quick question

Thanks, first of all, for the time and effort you put into this. It's gratifying to know that you guys are trying to address these concerns and its very evident that you take them seriously and have given them a lot of thought.

My question is about bigoted language. Philosophical or political discussions can be sometimes misconstrued, especially in a heated primary season, but hate language is pretty cut and dried.

I am under the impression if someone uses the "n" word in an abusive fashion, that is grounds for immediate banning (correct me if I'm wrong).

There have been a few time that I have personally witnessed someone using the "f*g" word and, if those posts are alerted, the post is usually deleted, but the member stays.

A particular incident occurred only a few weeks ago, a few DU'ers jumped on the poster, I alerted, as I imagine many did. The poster not only refused to back off, but actually defended the use of the word as his free speech prerogative.

I actually emailed the mod who deleted the post and asked if this individual would be banned. He wasn't and is still posting.

The reason I bring this up is that I think a lot of gays and lesbians and trans folk here would find DU an even more welcoming place if homo/transphobia was taken as seriously as, and responded to in the exact same manner as racism.

I would be interested to hear why someone can use the word "f*g" as a pejorative, then angrily and blatantly defend its use, and still remain a DU'er.

Again, thanks for all your efforts on this, solely speaking for myself, it's greatly appreciated.

[FreeState]

11. Opps

Sorry hit the wrong button... thought I was sending an email LOL

[MonkeyFunk]

14. That's a good point

I was amazed that a member who called Hillary Clinton a "cunt" multiple times wasn't even suspended. Calling her a "bitch" MIGHT get the post deleted. It might take half a day or more.

I just don't understand how those epithets, especially the first one, aren't bannable offenses. If somebody used the "n" word to describe Obama, I find it hard to believe he wouldn't be banned immediately.

[Skinner]

20. Please send me a private message...

...with the username of the person in question so I can check it out.

[MonkeyFunk]

24. Sorry, it was my error

he didn't call Clinton that. He said Ferraro should be "kicked in the cunt". I got confused with another episode yesterday where somebody proudly and repeatedly called Clinton a bitch.

Sorry for mischaracterizing it. I'm old and feeble-minded: that's my defense.

[hulklogan]

15. A similar situation happened this evening in the GD forum.

The OP then shouted at the people asking for a bit of class when it comes to the F word to "LIGHTEN UP".

I'm interested to hear about where the line will drawn about the use of f*g or f****t.

[Skinner]

18. I am not familiar with this.

Please send me a private message and let me know who is responsible. I will look into it.

[David Zephyr]

12. Skinner, you and EarlG have more than addressed this issue.

The DU has been one of the most welcoming blogs on the web to the GLBT community since its very beginnings. I know because I've been here since the beginning (lurking for a while and then posting somewhere in early 2001).

Skinner, I think you have more than adequately addressed this issue now and are to be commended.

Those of us in the GLBT community need to keep in mind that the DU also guards against ugly talk against many other minorities as well and, yet some how still lets free speech rule the day. That's an amazing balance act that deserves a lot of praise. A lot indeed.

Can the DU do better? Sure. We ALL can do better.

And to my fellow GLBT friends and posters, I would also urge caution and discretion at how and when we hurl the "homophobia" charge at others. Far too many times, I have seen that charge made here at the DU against others whose choice of words reflected more of a blunder of the head than a sincere hardened position in their hearts. There's a real difference between an idiotic post and a truly mean and hurtful post. In fact, I sometimes prefer that the idiotic posts not be alerted because they allow for constructive conversation and instructive discourse to those who read.

[ruggerson]

13. I hurl it at people who use the word "fag"

or write OP's about how Hillary is a dangerous lesbian.

Is that appropriate?

[David Zephyr]

17. You know I agree with you on those two points.

This is David Zephyr, ruggerson. ;-)

[Toasterlad]

16. Thank You.

I appreciate the time you took to clarify your position, and the apology for your inadvertently offensive first attempt.

I will NEVER be happy with any "solution" that you can come up with, because they all involve alerting, locking, and deleting posts, which is reprehensible to me. I've made my position on that matter very clear elsewhere, so I won't go into it again. Suffice it to say, I realize that I'm in the very small minority in regards to my feelings on alerting and deleting vile messages. I also realize that it is not easy to maintain order on the internets if everyone is allowed to post whatever they hell they want, and I do not have a better solution to offer than reminding everyone periodically that if they want to interact with other people anonymously online, they'd better stop bawling every time someone says something they don't like...in other words, grow the fuck up.

Since we have to live with alerting, locking, and censorship (however well intended), my only beef is that these be applied FAIRLY, across the board, which is what everyone would like to see, I'd imagine. I'm going to take you at your word that you are concerned about the problem and are actively seeking solutions, and wait and see how things progress in the form of this upcoming new software, and the call for others to alert more if they are offended.

I can tell you right now, however, that I will NOT be using the alert function under any foreseeable circumstances, nor will I come whining to you or the mods about someone else's homophobic ravings not being deleted or locked. I'm perfectly capable of fighting my own battles. All I ask is that if you're going to restrict my ability to do so, you apply the same restrictions to the homophobic raver.

[BR_Parkway]

19. Thank you for your time, concern and obvious sincerity in addressing

these issues. What we all wouldn't do for a magic wand to make all bigotry go away, in the meantime, I think that this is the best that can be done here while preserving the openness and free speech that makes DU such a unique place to spend time at. I'm a grown up, I don't expect to never be offended at someone else's ignorance - and I truly appreciate you explaining the steps and time that DU has used in trying to minimize those incidences.

[pinto]

21. Thanks Skinner.

:thumbsup:

[xchrom]

22. thanks for your time and effort.

we'll see how this develops -- we've had to endure a lot of homophobia -- contrary to what one poster above thinks.

from 'it's the hypocrisy' to larry craig and 'ann the man' -- some subtle some not so much.

i think if mods asked themselves if i were a racial minority -- would i find this offensive? might help.

[ThomCat]

23. "Well meaning bigots" vs "hostile bigots"

As much as I'd really like to be pissed off about this, I really can't disagree with the idea of not banning the "well meaning bigots." Ideally, they can learn. I agree that it really is a better long term policy to change people into allies instead of driving them away.

But, that's an incredibly frustrating policy for those of us who are going to be continually exposed to those bigots until they grow up. It means that, for the greater good, we get to be targets until they become more enlightened... Wonderful... :(

[lightningandsnow]

25. Thank you.

[LeftCoast]

26. While I very much appreciate the improved tone of this, I am still left with questions.

Doyou plan to remain in better contact with DU's GLBT community? These issues have been around since DU began and it should not have taken so long for you to become aware of them.

I sincerely hope that positive change will come from all of this. You said a lot in your post, but I must admit when I finished reading it felt like you were simply telling us that the Best Of threads are history and for us to hope that DU version 3.0 will fix all this.

:shrug:

One final question - How will DU deal with the very very common tactic around here of calling virtually every one of our RW enemies gay?

[LeftCoast]

45. *sigh*

Guess I won't have them answered...

[Skinner]

47. I apologize that I did not respond.

I do not think it is accurate or fair to suggest that I am only now -- after more than seven years of running DU -- becoming aware of these issues. As my OP indicates, we have long been removing anti-gay bigotry and banning anti-gay bigots. Is there room for improvement? Of course there is. But I think people need to understand that focusing exclusively on what gets posted, while disregarding how the community responds to those posts, does not give the full picture of whether this community is accepting of bigotry.

With regard to the "Best of DU" threads, I said the exact opposite of what you suggest. The "Best of DU" threads are not history:

In case there is any question: You are permitted to call members on bigotry and publicly educate them, just as it is permitted to have "Best of..." threads where GLBT members can draw attention to homophobia you see. But once you start calling people names, you run the risk of getting your posts deleted or locked.

With regard to the issue of calling right-wing enemies gay, which was not addressed in my OP: It is already our policy to delete or lock such posts. But I should repeat that it is very important that people click the alert link, otherwise it is likely that the moderators will not see them.

[LeftCoast]

49. I am very pleased to hear that calling our RW enemies gay is against DU rules

Personally, I rarely alert these any longer because I felt it was pointless. I'll try alerting again.

Thank you for replying to my post.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

27. I actually have nothing against the "don't rally the troops" rule. AS LONG AS...

...it's applied to EVERYBODY.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

32. thats my point. the vegetarian and vegan forums use it w.out a lock

surely rallying the troops to support human rights is more important than rallying the troops to support pitbull rights.

[yewberry]

50. OT, but I don't think that's really fair, priyanka.

That kind of thread is very rare in the VVAR group. Years ago, sure, it happened too much, but that hasn't been the case for quite a long time.

I've seen that claim many times by some DUers, but it's just not the case.

Whatever your personal feelings are about that group, there's no reason to hold it up as a bad example, especially given the rarity of those threads.

[LostinVA]

51. I read the VVAR group, but rarely post in there, since I'm not a vegetarian

I am, however, a huge supporter of animal rights.

In any case, there's not a single thread rallying the troops on the front page in there, and the front page goes back a few months. I think it's a pretty informative group.

:shrug:

[yewberry]

53. Thanks, LiV.

Don't be shy about posting. It's a VVAR board, not a veg*n-only group.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

52. i used to check the group regularly last year and it happend a lot

i havent checked it in the last few months since i have been distracted with school and the primaries.

[yewberry]

54. It's pretty rare, really.

That used to happen more often back in '06, but a lot of VVAR posters left DU around that time. It was a very bad time for us here.

Hope you'll feel free to check in more often.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

56. i didnt bother to do a real search but on your front page

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=231x18085

[yewberry]

57. Yes, and there's another from last October.

It does still happen, but I think that falls in the 'pretty rare' category.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

58. any mention of gd threads here gets locked. i dont really want to continue this discussion any

further since skinner more than adequately addressed my concern. thanks.

[MonkeyFunk]

60. It may be rare now

but there was a time when it was very common, and at the same time, similar threads in other groups were locked regularly. I alerted on the threads in the Vegetarian group, as we are repeatedly asked to do, and for my efforts, I was banned from that group. I had never posted there - but i was banned so I couldn't alert anymore. That strikes me as silly.

My boyfriend is a vegetarian, and there are times I've wanted to post questions in there, but I can't, simply because I alerted on threads that broke the rules.

One time I sent the admin for that group a list of a dozen threads that rallied the troops and were not locked, along with a list of a dozen threads in the skeptics group that WERE locked, for doing the same exact thing. And instead of fixing the problem of unequal enforcement, I was prevented from pointing out the problem.

It's only natural that people would be bothered by such blatant favoritism.

[Skinner]

40. I addressed this topic above.

Here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=75173&mesg_id=75281

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

42. Ah, thanks. (Beats self with rubber chicken for having read the OP and little else) -nt

[Skinner]

48. No need to beat yourself with a rubber chicken.

When you posted your question, I had not yet posted my response to the post above.

Right after I posted the response above, I came here and posted the link to it.

[dsc]

28. thank you

clearly you are getting it which is much appreciated. I actually have a technical suggestion here. Is there a way for us to know a post has been alerted upon? That would help greatly when we see a oldish offensive post. We don't want to be the umpteenth person alerting on some post and I think that is why so many posts end up not being alerted upon.

[papapi]

29. My two cents.

I think the posts should be alerted on by as many as may find them offensive. I'm not easily offended. I've learned to dish it out when someone steps on my toes. But I'll still use the alert button to mark particularly offensive and ugly posts. I would hope that I'm being backed up by other DUers at the same time. I guess what I'm saying is the alerting factor can be a sort of gage for the mods about grossly offensive posts. I don't really care to know what has been alerted or how many times.

[papapi]

30. Thanks Skinner. I'm new here and it's good to know someone does care...

...that justice is served when the rules are applied equally.

[Puglover]

31. Thanks Skinner. n/t

[meegbear]

33. Thank You.

[racaulk]

34. Thank you for this, Skinner.

Your first post did have sort of a condescending "get over it" tone, which clearly did not sit well with a lot of people. I'm very glad to see this post, and you have made it very clear here that the admins and mods are taking these issues seriously.

I'm also very glad to see that you have reversed your position on the "Ann the Man" posts. While some may find that joke innocent and harmless, it's not, and it does seem like the users who make those posts do so repeatedly despite various attempts at education from other users. In my opinion, that crosses the line from harmless joking to intentional provocation, and I'm glad that you see that now. :)

I truly, genuinely thank you for this very well thought-out and presented post. And a big thanks to EarlG for going through all of those posts in the "Best of DU" threads. That research clearly took a lot of time, and I appreciate his efforts also.

In return, I promise to be a little more civil and cut back on the name-calling until I have had a chance to determine whether someone is a "well-meaning bigot" or a "hostile bigot." I also promise to be a little more diligent in using the Alert function on posts that come from the "hostile bigots".

Thanks! :hi:

[Duncan Grant]

36. I agree with LeftCoast and I think DU can do a better job addressing LGBT bigotry.

First, let me say that I appreciate your empathetic response and apology. I sincerely thank you for the time you've given to the concerns raised in this forum over the last week.

I also value EarlG's efforts (what a time sink that was!) but for me it lands as a defensive response. The analysis may make you and the mods feel better but for me - eh, not so much. As you said above, "this problem is not narrowly confined to messages referenced in the "Best of DU" threads". The most appalling things are continually posted here about LGBT people and I think you can do a better job at informing the entire DU community that you will not tolerate it. There's an opportunity here for you, the mods, and the LGBT members to improve upon this ongoing problem. Obviously, LGBT people need to use the alert function religiously. Consequently, the mods will need to empathetically embrace concerns about bigotry, homophobia, transphobia and civility. PelosiFan has already mentioned the "gays in the military" thread -- and I want to add my concern as to why it's considered acceptable.

Regarding the issue that DU is a teaching environment addressing a "continuum of bigotry": I am tired of teaching straight people about the appropriate ways in which to respectfully address LGBT people and the bigotry we live with 24/7. Instead of asking me to endure the ignorance and malice, why can't you insist that the ignorant and bigoted simply go somewhere else to educate themselves? DU is a notable board on the internet -- you can afford to raise the minimal standards concerning cultural competency. As a straight man with some level of influence and power I'm begging you to take a greater leadership role on behalf of LGBT people everywhere. If this forum were filled with "well meaning" racists or anti-semites, would your strategy be to educate them? If so, how would that work? And would it really be worth it?

I want to enthusiastically commend you, EarlG, and the mods for a move in the right direction on transphobic posts. I assume you'll have zero-tolerance for "Ann the Man" postings and that they will be promptly deleted. This is very good news - I most sincerely thank you. And - it took too long for us to get to this point. I've been advocating for this since April 2006 (link).

Again, I appreciate your careful consideration of these issues. Please know that even though I'm holding you to a very high standard, I am your ally and supporter.

Sincerely yours,
94114_San_Francisco

edit: subject line

[Solon]

37. Perhaps a sticky should be placed on all of the big forums about bigotry...

Similar to what was used in 2004 to tell people to stop with the "Gays cost us the election" bullshit that was happening back then, and is resurrected now. Indeed, with what's happening in California, this is perhaps even more important to reiterate now than it was in 2004. This way, at least members of DU don't have an excuse for spouting bigoted bullshit.

[Duncan Grant]

43. I agree that some type of visible leadership is important.

It's also essential that well-informed LGBT members volunteer for mod service. Each one, teach one.

[Skinner]

39. I am your ally and supporter, too.

I appreciate your response, and I think we now have a much better understanding of these issues. Again, I apologize that it has taken us so long to deal directly with the "Ann the Man" postings; we will have a zero-tolerance policy from now on.

We both know that Democratic Underground is not perfect. But we will do the best we can to make this a welcoming community for all of our members.

[jumptheshadow]

44. Thank you for your hard work and your support

One of the awesome things about the gay community is that it is so diverse. That's one of many reasons why we need "Best of" threads, because in discussing our reaction to comments made on this board, we can learn from each other. It's a two-fer. We can communicate among ourselves and protect our own.

I am in a position where I get to see current demographic and marketing studies on the gay community. One I saw recently focused on how certain words, when used by gay people themselves, generate sharply different reactions among differing demographic groups within the community. I have looked all day for the study and can't find it, but it underscored the generation gap in the community. A word like "queer" used as self-reference scored much higher negatives among older gays than younger ones. It's pretty obvious when you think about it, but the generation gulf is much more pronounced for gays than among heterosexuals because of the vastly different life experiences and social environments during their formative years.

That's why I realize how difficult it is for non-gays to know when something they are saying is offensive. Some of the threads referenced in "Best of," frankly, didn't offend me (I laugh heartily thinking about Trent Lott in leather). However, I understood when other posters explained their reaction to them. The threads are very educational.

While I respect the fact that some DUers prefer to argue for themselves rather than see disrespectful posts deleted, there are probably far more members who will feel a chilling effect if those posts remain up. Because of that, I will keep on hitting the "Alert" button in order to keep this board more civil.

(Edited several times for basic literacy issues.)

[Lex]

46. Thanks Skinner. I've been sick about this.

I felt like the issues were being largely ignored and/or fumbled badly, but now I feel like some sincere attention is being paid.

DU, like all of us, is a work in progress (and progressiveness).

[Book Lover]

55. Thanks to you and Earl

for all work that resulted in the above post. I am not naturally a hopeful person, so all I can say is we shall see.

[terrya]

59. Thank you for addressing our concerns

And thank EarlG for his research.

Both are very much appreciated.