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Is this serious? A movement for a gay 'homeland'?

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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-26-07 05:18 PM
Original message
Is this serious? A movement for a gay 'homeland'?
http://gayhomeland.org /

They appear to take it totally seriously (it appears to be German in origin). There just seem to be so many reasons why it's a bad idea, that I can't tell if it's for real or not (they're selling decorative 'stamps' to raise money for - well, I don't know who checks what they spend money on).

Has anyone heard of it before?
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Phredicles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-26-07 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. No, but Bad Idea Reason #1: An excuse for "ethnic" cleansing;
But now my curiosity is piqued: Where would it be?
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HappyWeasel Donating Member (694 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-26-07 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yeah, seriously.
Sure, it would solve all of the problems people have with eachother by isolating them like naughty children, but this sounds too much like the reservation system.
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PaderBaron Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-17-07 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
23. "Them"
Yes, we are "them."

As long as people think of what is more than 10% of the global population as "them," as HappyWeasel seems to (thus equating us with lepers and outcasts) we will remain unwelcome at the family table and on the fringes of "society." If this is what you, the majority want, so be it.

If having our own homeland means we can go be who we are there without having to deal with truly depressing, oppressing and distressing thought patterns such as the HappyWeasel has displayed in his little guffaw, then we will have it - reservation or ghetto or not.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-26-07 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. That one's news to me. I'd heard about the Australian one, though...
Gay and Lesbian Kingdom of the Coral Sea Islands
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Gay and Lesbian Kingdom of the Coral Sea Islands is a micronation established as a symbolic political protest by a group of gay rights activists based in southeast Queensland Australia. It is an expression of Queer nationalism.

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_and_Lesbian_Kingdom_of...
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-26-07 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. Does anyone know any of the endorsers?
Nowadays, there's so much snark, my first thought was that this is a backhanded 'Balfour Declaration' using the history of the state of Israel to pick on gays. But who knows, it might be serious. It just seems like a lousy idea.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-26-07 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. I can't handle the use of "homeland" in any context....
Why, those of us with direct memory of history, or memory from having STUDIED history did not scream bloody murder at the use of this term-bothered from the German Nazis-- appalls me. Homeland Security, indeed.

Makes me wonder, too, whether white supremacists might not be behind this website...? :shrug:
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kansasblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-26-07 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. I thought we had one in Provincetown.
:-)
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-26-07 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
7. Much better idea:
homeland for republicans.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 03:21 AM
Response to Original message
8. Ehhh
While the idea of communities/towns free of intolerance is a nice thought I hesitate to jump at the prospect of such concentrated groupings. It would make us far too easy a target for bigots who would just love to take us out en masse.
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meegbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
9. It'll never work ...
they'll be so many people arguing about the decor, that nothing will get done.
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vanrozenheim Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
10. Yes, we are serious...
There just seem to be so many reasons why it's a bad idea, that I can't tell if it's for real or not (they're selling decorative 'stamps' to raise money for - well, I don't know who checks what they spend money on).


There are lots of reasons why this is a GOOD idea. I will call only one, which should as such suffice.

First of all, the necessity to give refuge to gay folks who are persecuted in their native countries -- and who have no chance to get asylum somewhere else. You might think that the "civillised world" is welcoming those refugees, but this is not the case, despite what governments would like us to believe. In the real world, gay refugees are sent back even if they somehow manage to illegally come into some democratic Western country. The usual suggestion is that homosexuals are entirely safe if they don't disclose their sexual orientation to anybody and do not seek contacts to other gays. If you have followed the gay press over the last 2-3 years, you certainly know of the many gay individuals sent back to Nigeria, Iran and Iraq, not to mention all the thousands whose fates never managed their way into any newspaper. The simple truth is that no wealthy nation is or ever was eager to accomodate poor refugees, because it is always distressing for a rich person to see distressed poor have-nots who all need food, cloth, housing and work opportunities. This was no different with Jews 1933-1945, and this is no different with Gays now. Look on what is going on in in the Middle East and in Africa and think yourself in a situation of a gay person there. If the authorities don't get you, you will probably make an end to your life by free pieces. Would it really be THAT BAD to have a how-ever-small territory which would give asylum to EVERY gay person who is in need of it?

There is actually plenty of "empty" territory available - it's not like the entire Earth is similarly dense populated as NY city. Mind you, already now some 3/4 of the world population are living in urban areas - which means, most of the other place is used for agriculture or simply remains unused. One does not have to go to Antarctis to find 100 km2 which is relatively empty. The political system of this world isn't static, either - old states go, new states arise. There are even states which do not posess territory at all - yes, yes there are some. The Order of Malta e.g. is a so-called "atypical subject of the international law" which has no souvereignty over any territory, but is widely recognized as a state-like souvereign entity (by 94 states, among them Italy and Brazil). Now simply replace "Order of Malta" with "Gay Republic" and imagine that such an entity buys/rents a territory and achieves a contract with, let's say Brazil or Thailand to make the place exterritorial for 150 years or longer. Their souvereignty, our jurisdiction. This is a very common type of contract, e.g. all military bases and embassies in other countries are hosted under similiar terms, the US-military base in the Guantanamo Bay is even contracted for unlimited use. Absolutely nothing ridiculous or insane is, in this.

As for the stamps - you will maybe notice they are rendering two merited gay personalities - Karl-Heinrich Ulrichs and Harvey Milk. The former was the first gay man ever to speak out publicly on behalf of his fellow homosexuals, the latter was the first ever openly gay US-politician. We indeed ask for a small donation as retribution of production costs, but the primary purpose of those little stickers is to popularize the two gay gentlemen in question.

- well, I don't know who checks what they spend money on).


Why, as it always is - the people who give money to us. We are a private association, not a governmental agency... The yearly financial report is public, however - it's available by the end of March. For curious minds, all the interesting informations like names, e-mail adresses, telephone number and the street adress are available from the website. Our revenues are very humble, as our expenditures are. We are simply working on further developing and explaining the idea, and any aquisitions of territories are currently NOT on our agenda. To make a picture of our spendings: 48 EUR for website hosting, 40 EUR for donation to an Iranian gay organization, 24 EUR for the letters to diverse Nigerian House Commitees, and the like. Poor academics only, no cheating wealthy businessmen.

Viktor Zimmermann
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. But the next generation will be majority heterosexual
and your 'culture' will then radically change, if you really believe GLBT culture is fundamentally different from all other ones.
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IntravenousDemilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. That's one of the best reasons so far, i.e., gayness would be unsustainable in the next generation.
On the other hand, "the next generation" implies that we'd be fucking people of the opposite sex, which seems unlikely.
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kdpeters Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-04-07 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Kind of like Key West, Castro, WeHo -- all lasted only one generation
Not really. Gay generations don't work that way. Younger generations move in during young adulthood from places where there aren't very many of us. The rest of the world is busy breeding, birthing and raising our next generation for us. We get them once they reach adulthood but we don't help them or adopt them or assist them too much if they need it. But still, many are willing to live homeless among us to escape what they're fleeing. Maybe we should as a community, think more generationally and take more responsibility. This proposal is remarkable to me for proposing just that and doing so for brothers and sisters all over the world. I think it is a wonderful idea at least at first glance.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. not necessarliy
I would expect the birth rate to be low.Most of the population growth would probably be "refugees"
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. 'Empty Territory'? 'This was no different with Jews 1933-1945'?
Yeah, how's that working out for Israel 50 years on? :eyes:
And there is no unclaimed territory in the world.

It'd be better to re-educate people to be more tolerant and to try and solve societies problems than just throw your hands up and take over a chunk of land somewhere for a 'homeland'.
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IntravenousDemilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. It smacks of ghettoization. One of the points we're trying to make is that "We're Everywhere". n/m
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purduejake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-03-07 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. And we still would be.
However, can you blame people for longing for some refuge or place built around their family needs? Straight people have this luxury and it looks like it will be a long time before gay people have it too.
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kdpeters Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-04-07 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Long live ghettoization!!!!
I'm just now getting ready to move back to rural Georgia to help my mom take care of my step-dad. Everyone I tell acts as if it is clearly something I don't want to do. Wrong. I'm excited to be going home. If I hadn't lived here in San Francisco for a few years, I would never have come to the sense of peace and internal value that allows me to go back now unafraid, unashamed, and unwilling to take any bullshit. Growing up, it was always there. I was always scared, worried someone would figure me out, or hearing yet another fag joke or the just constant homophobia. You all know what I'm talking about. No matter what, it was always there and my guard was always up.

After college, I moved to San Francisco. I remember one day, after three or four years living in San Francisco, it dawned on me that I hadn't thought about my being gay in several days. I'd just forgotten that it was important, different, or remarkable. I had let that guard completely down. I was just going about my business. I talked freely about my boyfriend at work. You know that hesitation before talking about your partner in non-gay contexts or being asked if you're married -- that hesitation when you're deciding if you want to be 'the gay' at that moment? Gone! I remember stopping and thinking to myself, "So this is how straight people feel. This is what it's like when it's not something you think about. This is what it's like when no one finds it shocking, remarkable, or even all that different." I have that now, and I'll never let it go -- well, I'm sure the hesitation will come back, but I'm not going back in the closet. I don't know if I could have done my part to be 'everywhere' and 'out' if not for the ghetto experience. I can now. I can go home.

The ghettos still give us refuge, acceptance, healing, and strength. And then they can send us back out into to the world -- everywhere. That's been my experience. Long live gay ghettos!!
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
11. Can allies live with you all?
Quite frankly I would rather be with you.

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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. Why not?
:hi:
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Glorfindel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
13. Hmmm...it has merit, definitely
I'll have to think long & hard about it, but I can see definite advantages to such a homeland.
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IntravenousDemilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Heh heh...
You said "long and hard"...
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PaderBaron Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-17-07 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
22. Gay Homeland
Yes, it is serious, as VanRozenheim said. And while we have formed our association in Germany due to the extremely friendly association foundation laws there, our members are from around the planet. Anyone wit an anti-German bent should know that our membership includes Russian Jews, Americans and ex-pat Americans (such as myself), people from numerous countries where gays are openly persecuted and prosecuted, and also members from countries where being gay is no problem, like Germany.

So far, our commemorative stamps depicting a few major early historical movers and shakers in the history of GLBTs worldwide have netted less in sales than the cost to produce them. And while Muriel the bird strangler may be worried that we are just another one of those "please donate so we can live richly" organizations, we are not. We barely have enough cash in the till to keep our web sites going, and instead of resorting to fake claims of "kingdom" foundation through "conquering" uninhabited (and uninhabitable) Australian atolls, we have taken a more pragmatic approach.

We are laying the foundation and doing the groundwork needed to establish a possible country for GLBT people from all parts of the globe. As religious conservatism spreads like an STD under the auspices of Dumbya and other despots around the globe, the need for such a place is self-apparent and requires no defense and no justification.

If you have a problem with this peaceful, completely honest attempt at allowing what amounts to more than 10% of the world's population to have a land of its own, then you are a bigot and likely need to reexamine personal motivation.
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Amphigorey Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-17-07 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
24. Sounds like the Invasion
of Alpine County, California in 1971! The idea was floated around the media that gays had chosen that sparsely populated county for colonization. But that was just a hoax to scare the natives. And it did.

But the world needs a refuge for people escaping persecution. When you face ostracism, incarceration or death merely for being glbt, and Western countries wont offer asylum, where else is there?

Ive never lived in a ghetto. Never wanted to. Thats because I already live in a relatively benign place. But I have to agree with KDPeters that there ought to be ghettos for folks who dont have that safety and need to find or reinvent themselves. And for many others as well, sometimes you may just need a visit to recharge your batteries.

For anyone living in a benign, integrated place, consider yourself lucky.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-18-07 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Gaysrael? n/t
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