Have you ever changed anyone's view of our struggle through debate

[bertha katzenengel]

or arguing on line or IRL?

Ever?

Looking at a discussion I'm currently involved in on a private forum,* I don't think any one person's mind can ever be changed. Ever.

People are too afraid to think.

*if you want to register to read it, the URL is http://www.somd.com/forums and the thread is here. I'm "fat&happy" and my first post doesn't pop up until page 8, post 107. It is the first post about marriage equality.

That post reads:

If the poll weren't closed, I would've chosen "married."

Even though the current administration insults my marriage, along with a good portion of the population.

There is no good, no logical, no rational reason for my marriage not to be recognized. I've been married to my beloved for nearly six years, but we have no marriage license. As a result we are entitled to none of the over one thousand federal rights/benefits granted to married people.

Yet we are married.

And now, once again, the current administration is trying to codify that second-class status, that denial of equality, by pushing the "marriage amendment." I spit on their "marriage amendment." It is unthinkable that so many people think it's okay to add the denial of equality to the Constitution.

Some of the private anonymous comments ("karma") I've rec'd in reply just to that post include:

"sick sick sick"

"nasty"

"Keep your perversion to yourself"

"dink"

"Idiot"

~~~

Someone tell me what was sick, nasty, perverted, or idiotic in that post?

Have you EVER changed someone's mind about us?

[1620rock]

1. Umm, no.

[closeupready]

2. Oh, yes. Usually after a lengthy back and forth,

dealing with their irrational fears (at least as far as marriage equality goes). Several individuals who were just knee-jerk against it, who hadn't really thought about it. Once we had a dialogue going, they finally actually changed their minds.

It takes a lot of time and work, though. x( :D

[bertha katzenengel]

6. Was it worth it?

And could you do it without crying with frustration, getting really angry, your BP going up?

[closeupready]

12. Yes.

First off, though, I enjoy these other forums, and the puke/lib ratio favors libs, so even without these discussions, I would go there. And second, there is typically a crew of us who support each other, and reason constructively.

My strategy is typically twofold. Find out, at heart, why people are opposed to marriage equality, and if it's fundamentalist beliefs or just sheer hatred, bring that out and let people see that this is what the opposition is about. Remarkably, with those people who are merely parroting what they've been taught, it's not uncommon for them to actually end up later being the ones in these discussions who defend marriage equality and explain to other opponents why opposition doesn't make sense - I kid you not.

[MadMaddie]

3. I have stopped trying with certain folks...

they refuse to accept reality...so I am going to sit back and when they get hit in the face with the same shit they have been dishing out...I will not bother to say I tried to get you to think....to open your eyes....

[MuseRider]

4. Swayed yes, changed I don't know.

:hi: Bertha! I never see you anymore and I miss you!

I have found that as far as bringing equal rights into the work force people can be swayed if they are not totally into the "sin" angle. I do think I was able to change minds.

As far as marriage I don't know. There is so much misinformation out there that it is hard to make enough headway to get through it all. We need more time to educate and we need to have a time when the world doesn't seem to be falling apart so people have the time to digest things. I don't want to wait and I am certain you don't so we just keep plugging away.

I think this is doable, I really do. The youth are a big hope and we just have to keep working.

[bertha katzenengel]

7. Do you think we will win this education race before the "FMA" passes?

:grr:

Good to see you, MR :hug:

[MuseRider]

13. Don't know

Bertha. I really don't know. This national climate is pretty scary. I was worried that if it did get out of the senate it just might pass enough states.

I am encouraged that if we had a different administration and things started getting back to normal here in our country we would find less opposition but we have to get there first and we have to keep working against the climate set by this maladministration. It is trying and exhausting at best just to hold ground the way it is right now.

[gator_in_Ontario]

5. Not in debate...

but several people have gotten to know me before they found out I am gay. Once they do, it seems to cause some kind of mental disconnect.. many of them can't start to hate me just for that reason. Because it makes no sense, and my marriage effects them absolutely ZERO. But these are reasonable folks, of course....

[pnwmom]

8. I try NEVER to argue. That just makes people more stubborn. Instead,

I ask questions.

Such as:

Honestly. Would you be happy if your daughter married a gay man?
(The answer, of course, is NO.)

Well . . . would you be happy if your daughter married an "ex-gay man"?
(Um. . . not really.)

So you wouldn't want your daughter to marry either a gay man -- or an ex gay man?
Right

Yeah, me neither. . . . But gay people want to have someone to love, just like everyone else.
(Pause, to let that sink in.) So who do you think they should marry? Someone else's daughter?
Silence.

That's why I kinda think they should be able to marry each other. Don't you?

[thrift_store_angel]

9. [email protected] forums

I gave up reading their posts after 4 or 5 times, SoMd's own version of freeperville.
Someone once threatened to kill me on those forums because I told someone where to get a Kerry yard sign during the last election.

Come over to our forums Bertha: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gaysouthernmaryland/

We aren't as chatty, but we are much more polite!

[NMMNG]

10. What a bunch of rude, narrow minded, uninformed people

And no, I haven't changed anybody's mind about us. I gave up on several "mixed" forums partly because I got sick of debating right-wingers on the gay issue, among other things. They'll believe that people saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" is evidence of a vast conspiracy against Christians, but not that thousands of indignities against gays constitutes discrimination.

[gaspee]

11. No

And I don't think it's possible. I think it's something people need to come to on their own. Thankfully, the younger generations (except kids of fundies and right-wingers) are much more accepting.

[sui generis]

14. Yes, absolutely.

But only in a face to face. There are people who don't understand that we are essentially legally unequal, and who can be surprised to learn what all of it means when you spell it out. They may be against gay marriage in principle, but most of them don't separate "marriage" in their faith from the legal covenants of marriage in the government. The key is, they have to at least already respect and know you well enough to listen, and be willing to address what they think they know on the topic.

The ones that don't respond to your arguments, except with name calling and cat calls - they are cowards, and they don't even have the capacity to think for themselves, much less articulate support for their rationale. They're not brave enough to stand up for what they believe in; instead they glom together like a toenail fungus and call names, or go find teenage boys to beat up and leave for dead on fences because they're so fucking manly themselves, to beat tg's to death because that's what civilized people do. Makes them downright proud to be a homophobe, traveling in packs because they don't have enough strength by themselves to sustain all that hate.

One other thing: people hate to change what they think they know about the world. Bertha I have long ago given up ASKING for anyone's permission to be here. I flaunt it (selectively) because I KNOW how much those kind of people hate it. Be strong. Get in their face. They may have revulsion, but I have fury down to my subatomic structure. I see us hanging on fences, beaten and set on fire, hanged as teenagers, executed on doorsteps, shunned by our own parents and siblings, begging the gods we do and don't believe in to trade our lives for the lives of our loved ones laying dying while nobody else could bring themselves to be in the same room. I know first hand that the devil doesn't exist - or at least he didn't think my soul was good enough to bargain for. Don't ever take any shit from any one, not even the devil himself.

Get in their face. They're cowards. Tell them that and challenge them to prove that they're not, that they have something, anything, to be righteous about.

"What, you gonna make me less gay with your silly law? You gonna make gay people stop living together? You gonna make gay people stop being born? You?" and laugh in their face.

"What, you play dirty with the law and you want us to play nice back? If you're waiting for someone to run off to the playground monitor, you might as well get headed that direction yourself before you get hurt."

"Watch your back at the emergency room. In court. At the restaurant. You piss off enough gay people in enough places and we will hurt you. Legally. Economically. On the street. Stay the fuck out of our shit or we will mess you up. We are sick of you petty little bigots and the rest of America is sick of you too."

[Misunderestimator]

15. Yes, but not people like those seem to be.

I have changed some people's minds by enlightening them to all the privileges straight people receive as a result of being married. Most people who are "against" gay marriage don't even understand all the things that come with their own marriages. Just last week I spent an evening with some colleagues at work, explaining these things. They left understanding the unjustice of it in a way they had never even considered before. They weren't "against" gay marriage before... but they also weren't interested in it enough to care about it. Now they are.

[bertha katzenengel]

16. Well done. MisU.

:thumbsup: