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How to respond to my republican brother re: vouchers:

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callous taoboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:07 PM
Original message
How to respond to my republican brother re: vouchers:
He says that if this state had the voucher system it would not hurt the public schools because he would put his two kids in private school and use his tax rebate to help finance it, the school would have two less children to educate and would, therefore, not experience any financial hardship. It would simply be a sort of trade-off.

How would you respond to this?
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. volume, volume, volume
Public schools are the best buy for education because the large number of pupils means it has the lowest overhead. Further, being nonprofit, there are no shareholders to pay at the end of the day. All the $$ goes to education. While it is nice to think that competition creates efficiency, this has never been demonstrated in the field and all it really does is cut corners.
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ecassese Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
62. Monopolistic Providers of Education?
Its hard to draw many conclusions from the field, because there isn't a perfectly functioning market for education anywhere in the country right now. I think the public schools are like monopolies - they don't have any incentives to improve educational outcomes or cut costs. And they have many incentives to restrict entry into the market.
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Dyedinthewoolliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. If your brother
or anyone like him, wishes to provide an education for his children outside the public school system, let him send them to private (ie: Catholic) schools. Why should the public finance setting up a private school?
The education system can't be improved by abandoning it.......
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GrantDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. Tell him to keep in mind ....
that just because two students leave.. the building, bills, and costs (utilities, payroll, maintenance) associated don't get any smaller. The income however does.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. LIke This:
Voucher schools have devastated the public school system here in Wisconsin. The majority of the schools not meeting AYP (adequate yearly progress) are from the Milwaukee area. That's one thing. What about Edison Schools, and the financial shennanigans there?
When it comes down to choosing to send a child of mine, whether I had the money or not, I would choose public schools, because they are held accountable in a way private schools are not. Most states (Wisconsin is one) do not require voucher/private schools to take standardized tests, and IF they do, they are not required to report it. So if I'm spending money for the private education of my children, the school better have PROOF that they can perform.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'd say loud and clear, my portion of the taxes are not for sale
for the private educational interests of some parents.
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Journeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. What if he responded that all he wants is his portion of those taxes. . .
to pay for the educational interests of his children?
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. What he pays in taxes has nothing to do with his voucher...
read my msg below - he would continue to pay all his taxes once his kids got out of school, and his voucher would not be tied in any way to his taxes...
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Journeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I'm not addressing that issue. . .
I'm asking a specific question to MichiganVote about MichiganVote's clearly narrow focus.
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I got it. Good point. n/t
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. They already do. Its called a tax exemp. for religious schools & churches
Not to mention that public schools have to provide Special Education services for kids in private schools by law. 'Course there is the free and reduced lunches that private schools can also apply for. Not to mention the extracurricular and non academic sports programs that are paid for through public education funds and provided to private school students free of charge.

Want to use public school buildings for events, incl. church? You can do it, its the law. Want to use private school facilities for non private school events? Sorry, they're private and they can choose who they want to rent their space to.

When your brother in law votes he is guaranteed a spot to vote at a public school building. Lights, heat, security, parking----all paid for by the public schools w/o compensation by any government office. Its the law, if the city or township wants to use the space for voting, public schools must comply. Private schools do not have to do that.

Natural disaster? Public schools are routinely factored into community crisis plans. Private schools are exempt unless or until they volutarily permit or become a part of the "plan".

So the next time your brother in law wants to bitch about his tax money going to public schools, remind him that public schools provide shelter, food, voting, and services for the disabled.
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. The Republicans have lots to offer self centered, greedy people...
First off, so that you know, what the Republicans propose has nothing to do with a tax rebate.

The voucher plan does not require one pays taxes.

So it goes, if you have children of school age, you would get a voucher for x amount of money. The amount suggested is the amount that public schools get now, and so if the public school were to draw in as many students as they have now, it would be a wash, but with vouchers they'd have to 'compete', which would improve quality, right??????

I'll leave the rest to others to explain how it's a systematic plan to destroy public education.
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OhioNerd Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. Systematic plan to destroy public edication?
Even assuming that you are correct, it's too late. Public edication in many districts has ALREADY been destroyed.
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Mission Accomplished! Now you want to help finish the job for them?
You're new around here, but here's a clue, EVERYTHING THEY SAY IS A LIE
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MikeNearMcChord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
8. A friend of mine. who is both gay and a libertarian
said it best, "Why should my taxes be used to subsidize anti-gay bigotry, that would be taught in a Christian School?" It convinced me about vouchers.
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NoAmericanTaliban Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Good point & Welcome to DU!
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NoAmericanTaliban Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
9. Are they welfare bums. Why do they want go'vt handouts?
Tell them to pay for their own kids..Only people with kids in the school should be paying property taxes for schools. I have no kids but still have to pay school taxes. Why are people with kids reaching into my pocket & taking my money for themselves. They made the choice to have kids so they should pay for it. Some Repuke at work was complaining about the rise in prop. taxes, but when I pointed out that they have two kids in school and should be paying twice the rate they shut up fast.
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callous taoboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
10. I appreciate the feedback:
I think my brother was in a fight-picking mood last weekend. He is completely turned off by the religious fundamentalists, and he knows that voucher money would help fundy schools. He is just one of those fiscal tight-wad yuppies living in Divorcewood Estates who once had the audacity to actually ask, "Why should my hard-earned dollars go to help some black kid over in east Dallas get a CAT scan?" :wow:
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OhioNerd Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
13. The school system has been failing for generations...
The school system has been failing for generations. If it were going to be fixed, it would have been by now. Why should my children be hostage to a lousy system just to preserve a progressive ideal that has long since failed? And why should this failed system, top-heavy with overpaid administrators, get to keep my money?

You say there's a right-wing conspiracy to destroy the public school system? That's like saying there's a right-wing conspiracy to flood NYC with taxicabs. Regardless of whether or not it's true, it's like peeing in the ocean in an attempt to raise the water level.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to pretend that there aren't many school systems out there that are NO place to educate a child.
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Hey, check this out...
http://www.thememoryhole.org/edu/school-mission.htm

In 1888, the Senate Committee on Education was getting jittery about the localized, non-standardized, non-mandatory form of education that was actually teaching children to read at advanced levels, to comprehend history, and, egads, to think for themselves. The committee's report stated, "We believe that education is one of the principal causes of discontent of late years manifesting itself among the laboring classes."

By the turn of the century, America's new educrats were pushing a new form of schooling with a new mission (and it wasn't to teach). The famous philosopher and educator John Dewey wrote in 1897:

"Every teacher should realize he is a social servant set apart for the maintenance of the proper social order and the securing of the right social growth."

In his 1905 dissertation for Columbia Teachers College, Elwood Cubberlythe future Dean of Education at Stanfordwrote that schools should be factories "in which raw products, children, are to be shaped and formed into finished products...manufactured like nails, and the specifications for manufacturing will come from government and industry."

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OhioNerd Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Well that's an interesting historical perspective, but...
Well that's an interesting historical perspective, but it doesn't really have anything to do with the current problem.

The debate over WHY many school systems in the US are such a mess can rage all day. However, you can't get around the fact that they ARE a mess.

And you know who benefits from vouchers the most?
The working poor who don't have the money to send their kids to private schools.

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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. And often are clueless about how to handle a private school
so guess what? They return to the public schools. Not to mention the vast majority who have a need for specialized education programs that are NOT offered in private schools. Transportation? If a private school has no busing and a family has no or unreliable transportation guess what happens next? Truancy that's what.

Vouchers are not the solution to improving education. All you'll have are a bunch of wel to do parents getting yet another tax break.
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OhioNerd Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. "Vouchers are not the solution to improving education"
"Vouchers are not the solution to improving education"

I quoted you because that's the central issue.

You state that Vouchers are not the solution for improving education, which is absolutely correct and completely irrelevant. They aren't meant to do that. Vouchers weren't created to fix broken schools, they were created to allow children the to escape them.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #30
44. Escape into what?
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-26-06 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
59. What about the rest?
Why not improve the schools for ALL children?

Newsflash: Schools are locally controlled in this country. If your local schools suck, guess whose fault it is. Did you vote in your last schoolboard election?

If you didn't, then you have no right to complain about your local schools, because you have not exercised the power that you already have to improve them.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-26-06 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
58. The typical voucher isn't enough to cover private school tuition
The best private schools keep their tuition high deliberately to keep poor children out. They may charge $15,000 a year for elementary school.

Even my Rush-loving brother is against vouchers. He understands that a lot of the private schools are for parents who don't want their little angels "contaminated" by people of different races or religions, and he's convinced that if the vouchers were, say, $2,000, a lot of private schools would simply raise their tuition by $2,000 to make them unaffordable to the people they don't want AND to make money off the government.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. It sounds as if you think it failed you but for millions of Americans
it seems to have done a damn good job.
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OhioNerd Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. In areas where the schools aren't a mess...
In areas where the schools aren't a mess, you don't need vouchers.
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OhioNerd Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #23
51. Stop projecting.
I went to public school BEFORE it went to shit.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. when would you say that it went to shit?
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. because some schools are troubled
we should end the whole experiment, along with any hope millions of kids have of any kind of future?

No, but thanks.
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OhioNerd Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. If you want to leave your kid in a school that has failed, fine.
If you want to leave your kid in a school that has failed, fine. You're also free to consider me a traitor for not condemning vouchers. However, as far as I'm concerned, if my child was enrolled in a failed school; and I was too poor to pay for private school, I would be grateful to the point of tears to be able to get a voucher and save my child.

You disapprove?

:shrug:

Oh Well.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. if you're just poor enough
so that vouchers would make the difference, bully for you.

Bringing my child into it is a non-starter for me. Sorry. We're more fortunate than many in that we have the resources and skills to make sure that our son is well educated. That allows me to work for the well-being of the kids I teach, and, as I noted below, very few of them would find a voucher program meaningful beyond the fact that more dollars are fleeing their public school.

A question: I teach quite a few emotional/behavior disorder kids who wouldn't even be considered for admission by most private schools in which I've worked. Would you demand that private schools that get voucher money take all comers, as public schools are required to do, or are you happy to consign raftloads of kids to even more dismal futures than they face now?
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callous taoboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. Fund education appropriately. Your "failing" school is
the one-legged man in the ass-kicking contest. Ask any teacher who works there.
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LuckyLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-20-06 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #32
55. Voucher will never pay the full cost of a private education --
any private education from those that are relatively cheap (Catholic schools) to the most expensive. The talk of vouchers always hovers around $1500 per child per year. That doesn't cover jack peanuts. States and the federal government would NEVER pay the full tuition rate as a voucher,(high-end private high schools are $20,000 per year per child, and mid rate schools hover around $10,000) so what good does it do? If it were legal and moral (and that's questionable on all counts) the voucher system would provide financial aid for a few families to get their kids into a religious school. Other than that it's a smoke and mirror system designed to systematically dismantle public education. The Bushbots love it because it fits with their schema of privatizing everything, keeping gubmint out of our lives (except, of course, for the 452 areas of our livesit does want to regulate!).
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loudestchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #55
61. Right there with you! Kansas City, MO has an ongoing crisis in
it's public schools. Vouchers are back on the table here again. The catholic privates here range in the 5-8k range ...2 k in a voucher would make no difference in whether I could afford private school for my 3 school age kids. My husband and I are both "non-believers". The secular privates? about 15k/child. I have three. That's 45k/year. I made 23k last year because I'm a student. Do the math. Vouchers will only help those who can already afford to send their kids to the privates. Not to mention that they can already pay for private education with pre-tax dollars by utilizing some of the education savings plans.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
17. I say, pay for your own private schools just like I did 25 years ago.
Moved to south Florida in 1977 and the schools were running about 3 sessions a day and ranked in the lowest 10%. I paid all of my son's school tuition as a single parent.

As to taking his tax dollars out to pay the voucher: when I get to withhold all of my taxes that go to Bush's war follies and use them for social programs, then he can take his property taxes to pay for private education.
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OhioNerd Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. So people who are too poor to do that have to suffer?
That doesn't sound very progressive.


Don't forget the root word of "Progressive". It's PROGRESS. Something that the worst schools systems have NOT been making for a very long time.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. newsflash:
the huge majority of those who are too poor to do that now won't be able to do that with vouchers either.
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OhioNerd Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Are you always that careless about statistics?
"A huge majority"?

Obviously, some people will still be too poor to escape even with the vouchers.
Just as obviously, some people will be able to swing it with the voucher, who weren't able to originally.

I wont demean the discussion by throwing around phrases "Huge majority" when I haven't got the slightest idea what the actual numbers are.

By the way, if you're looking for a good comeback, try coming up with valid statistics that support your "huge majority" claim. That's probably shut me up, at least for a little while.

Or...
How about this:

Explain to me how it is PROGRESSIVE to make it any harder than it has to be for a child to escape a failed, government run school.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. let me put it to you this way.
I teach special ed in an urban middle school in Atlanta. Most of our kids come from very poor homes - 97% get free or reduced price meals.

Before I came into the public schools, I taught and subbed in quite a few private schools in the Atlanta area, from pricey schools in old former mansions to start-ups in 100-year-old wood frame houses well outside of town.

Are there kids in Atlanta who can't afford private schools now but who might be able to with vouchers? Sure. Will any of *my* kids be able to? Of the 40 kids I see throughout the day, one or two might be able to. The others are still stuck in a school that now has even *fewer* resources with which to educate them because of the dollars going to vouchers.

And the kids who could miraculously afford private schools with vouchers? They aren't going to the mansions, although those are the good schools. They're going to the start-up out in Lawrenceville where a good chunk of each day is given over to prayer and no one has the first goddamned clue about how to teach special needs kids.

Yeah. Fantastic fucking idea.
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callous taoboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. Are you listening to ulysses, OhioNerd? I teach as well-
and I agree 100% with his post. People who think that abandoning a system of education (which has historically produced plenty of doctors, engineers and the like) don't have a valid argument. :spank:

Face it: You are basically advocating leaving millions of children in the dust. The state I live in has one of the lowest per-pupil expenditures in the country, is near the bottom in teacher pay, ranks poorly in technology training and instruction, and is pushing for vouchers to help syphon off even more of what little funding we have. Brilliant plan. :banghead:
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OhioNerd Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. That's a logical fallacy.
That's a logical fallacy. It's called a "Self Sealing Argument"

I'm talking about this:

People who think that abandoning a system of education (Which has historically produced plenty of doctors, engineers and the like.) don't have a valid argument.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. why not address the actual issues
instead of snarking about a typo?
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OhioNerd Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. I see. This is where YOU pretend that I haven't been doing that all along.
I see. This is where YOU pretend that I haven't been doing that all along.

And... "snarking about a typo"?

You didn't make a typo. You made a logical fallacy.

If you don't understand the difference, then ask. If you're too embarrassed to ask, then google it.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. PLEASE pay attention.
I'm not even the poster you said had made a logical fallacy. While you're pondering that, though, I noticed you didn't respond to a couple of other of my posts. You might take a look.
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OhioNerd Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. I am paying attention, and I know the game you're trying to play.
I am paying attention, and I know the game you're trying to play.
You say it wasn't you that posted the Logical Fallacy?

OK, fine. You're still the one that called it a typo.

As far as not responding to your posts, are you seriously arrogant enough to think that I OWE you a response?

I've been very clear in my viewpoint and I've outlined both my position and reasoning several times. The problem is that while I can EXPLAIN it for you, I can't UNDERSTAND it for you.

You want to subject your kids to a failed government school system? Well that's fine with me.


Call me cynical, but I don't think you'd be quite as defensive of that failed system if the teacher's union wasn't a huge Democratic supporter.

If the REPUBLICANS tried to impose our current school system on us, we'd be screaming bloody murder and DEMANDING vouchers en masse.

Can we STOP defining our political agenda by just doing the OPPOSITE of whatever the republicans do?
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. if only it were a game.
As far as not responding to your posts, are you seriously arrogant enough to think that I OWE you a response?

Nope. Just thought you might like to reply to the points I made. If you can't, no biggie.

You want to subject your kids to a failed government school system? Well that's fine with me.

You've tried this line of "reasoning" before, haven't you? I'd rather make public schools better than abondon the poorest of kids, as vouchers would do.

Call me cynical, but I don't think you'd be quite as defensive of that failed system if the teacher's union wasn't a huge Democratic supporter.

Is there something you'd like to tell us?

If the REPUBLICANS tried to impose our current school system on us, we'd be screaming bloody murder and DEMANDING vouchers en masse.

No worries there, though - we know Republicans just want to privatize the whole thing.

Can we STOP defining our political agenda by just doing the OPPOSITE of whatever the republicans do?

Again, no problem. I define my political agenda by doing the opposite of the mind-bendingly stupid.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. I didn't know you were a teacher, Taoboys.
:hi:

Face it: You are basically advocating leaving millions of children in the dust.

Precisely so, although voucher proponents either scream at the suggestion or, as in the first response to your post, change the subject. :D
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. Perfect!
You and I both know our kids will get left behind in this voucher mess.

I have taught in both public and private schools also. I attended private schools. So I do have a good understanding of how each type of school functions and the key differences between them.

We do a far better job of teaching special needs kids in public schools. I know teachers with doctorate degrees who work in private schools and have no clue as to how to meet the needs of a kid with learning disabilities. They have never had to learn; those kids are not admitted to private schools.

We absolutely must fight vouchers because of our kids, Ulysses. They have been left behind too often.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. that's the other thing that drives me nuts.
those kids are not admitted to private schools.

I actually used to teach in a private school expressly for kids with learning disabilities here. Great school. High school tuition there was also $16,000/year as of 1998 - one of the mansion schools. Even they won't touch behavior disorder kids, and no other school in which I worked would even remotely consider taking a kid with anything beyond, say, dyslexia.

Except, of course, the crazy-ass fundie school where I worked before APS, and they just need the cash so badly they'll take damn near any kid that doesn't act in a "non-Christian" fashion too much. They just don't know what the hell to do with the special needs kids they have.

We absolutely must fight vouchers because of our kids, Ulysses. They have been left behind too often.

Yes and yes again. :thumbsup:
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #46
54. Even if they take our kids they don't have to keep them
My niece went from PK through 11th grade to a very exclusive private school. 14 years. Then at the end of her junior year, the school decided she couldn't keep up so they politely suggested she go elsewhere for her senior year. Her dad is a former board member of this school. So is his dad. BOTH of her parents are alums, as are five of her aunts. Her grandfather was an administrator at this school for 25 years! But even with that strong family connection (not to mention all the $$ her family had donated over the years), she was kicked out because her learning disabilities were too severe for the school to handle.

Many of the private schools in this area kick kids out at the end of their junior year. They weed out the group so only the ones who do well are allowed to stay and graduate.

No way will private schools take our poor disabled kids. Those schools don't take care of their own.

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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
25. So, when the "voucher system" destorys the "public school system"
(eliminating it), then what happens when the Republicans decide that they shouldn't use taxpayer money to fund vouchers?

There's a thought you don't get very often . . .
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
26. Expect private school tuition to go up... current tuition + "voucher"...
With the market of interested people wanting to get their kids into the private schools, with little competition for a good 10 years, supply and demand will take hold VERY quickly...

Private schools DON'T price their tuition based upon cost - it's how much the market can bear, and that would be whatever that voucher would be plus what people are paying now - CHA-CHING!

In sparse suburban areas, private schools won't build. Ever.

The way I see the marketing curve going, the time that it would take to replace our beliegered public school system with something ONLY AS GOOD would be about the same as it took long distance rates to START to go down after divestiture - 15 years minimum.

It would then take another 5-10 years to see any improvement...
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
27. Quick question - do you understand HOW this will DESTROY public schools?nt
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OhioNerd Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. Your question assumes that the school in question isn't already destroyed.
Your question assumes that the school in question isn't already destroyed. Certainly, many, many schools in the US are fine and in those cases people won't be looking to escape them. However, when we're talking about schools that are already destroyed, how do you justify denying even one child the chance to escape?
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. OK - we're talking about 2 different things...
The key word was "escape" which is usually followed by "the inner city".

If you're thinking of the voucher program that northeast DC is trying - sure, I'm willing to try anything to help those kids out.

But that's a localized, focused, laser beam solution. It's *not* nationalized school voucher to be forced upon every state, every town, which is what we're talking about. It's NOT even a complete restructuring of the public school funding in DC.

The program in NE DC is called "vouchers" by Republicans to help confuse people.

If it will grease the skids to call them "vouchers", OK, but in no way at all are those isolated inner city programs "THE" Republican voucher program SCHEME, DESIGNED to DESTROY *ALL* public schools, the vast majority of good ones along with the small minority of "destroyed" ones.

The problem, IMO, has nothing to do with schools, but with the neighborhoods.

The REAL SOLUTION is to bring back MANUFACTURING to the cities (believe it or not, that's why cities were created) and give high school graduates (and even high school dropouts) a chance to make a decent living rather than have to sell drugs.

If student can see a REASON to stay in school, they WILL. Thanks to Nafta/Gatt/etc - there's no reason to stay in school.
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OhioNerd Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. I see and understand the distinction you're making.
I see and understand the distinction you're making. I'm not in complete agreement with you on the national issue, but we're not so far apart that it would be productive to really drill down on this.

However, I was to address something that you said:

The problem, IMO, has nothing to do with schools, but with the neighborhoods.The REAL SOLUTION is to bring back MANUFACTURING to the cities...



I disagree, for two reasons:


  1. Manufacturing isn't coming back to the cities because of the reason it left in the first place. Bottom line, it has to do with what is called "Overhead", a concept that I'm sure you're familiar with. You cannot have a factory in a place where the real estate is going for $1,000/sq.ft. and expect to compete with someone whose factory is in an area where the real estate is $100/sq.ft.

  2. The manufacturing is not the problem. The PARENTS are the problem.


The first point I said just to get it out of the way. The second point I want to expand upon.

Both my parents were educators in NYC. They both started out as teachers and my Father retired as a Vice Principal, my Mother as a guidance counselor. As a result, I had the benefit of their experience going back over four decades.

Additionally, my job takes me into classrooms all day long. I'm not a teacher, so I am able to "step back" and look at what they are experiencing from an objective standpoint and here's what I see: The classrooms in many schools are completely out of control. The kids do what they want, when they want and they have little to no respect for the teachers. This means that the kids who WANT to learn are deprived of the opportunity for a positive classroom environment.

Now you might say; "Well that's the teacher's fault.", but you'd be wrong. and here's why:

The teachers will not impose genuine discipline on the class because they KNOW that the principal will not back them up. The principal will not back the teacher because they know that the PARENTS wont back them up. In fact, all too often they'll attack the principal. Occasionally that's a physical attack. Usually it's simply a complaint to the district or a lawsuit because little Johnny or Tamiqua was TRAUMATIZED by the teacher TELLING the kid to sit down, stop disrupting the class and do their work.

The result of all this is that nobody wants to rock the boat. They come to work, punch the clock and keep their heads down until the final bell rings when they can get away from those kids and go home.

This tends to destroy any GOOD teacher that come along, and don't even get me started on the bad ones.

You want to know who is generally the one person in the school who is almost universally educated, articulate, smart, filled with common sense and able to actually work in an effective manner? THE CUSTODIAN! A lot of these teachers are idiots that I wouldn't trust to babysit my dog, let alone educate my children. But they have tenure and a powerful union standing behind and protecting them. Heck, the UFT is probably the only powerful truly union left in the entire country.



Hmm....
I seem to have ranted a bit. I think I'll stop now.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-26-06 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #41
60. Oh yeah, blame the teachers' unions
Have you ever been a teacher?

What about those clueless, over-indulgent parents that YOU YOURSELF mentioned?

They're the reason you couldn't pay me enough to be a public school teacher. The crap that teachers have to put up with day after day from bratty students, defensive parents, and ass-covering administrators who feel that the only way to measure "producitivity" is through paperwork...ugh! Who needs it?
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
38. The more tax money
going to private schools, the less there will be for public schools. No matter how you want to crunch it.

The real points, for me, would be the reasons for attending a private school to begin with.

Private schools generally exist for a few big reasons:

To keep one's children away from the masses in order to indoctrinate them in your faith of choice during their formative years.

To keep one's children away from the masses in order to keep them from the less than elite masses.

To keep one's children out of the entrenched dysfunctional system of rote low-functioning drilling and killing the masses into obedient consumers and voters.

Private schools, like public schools, fall all over the place in a wide spectrum of quality. Not all private schools offer superior facilities or class sizes. Many private schools offer a more limited curriculum, and less-qualified instructors. The best of the best are also the most exclusive, and vouchers aren't going to get the rest of the population in.

As a matter of fact, the more students that attend private schools, the more like public schools they will resemble. Private schools have a couple of advantages over public schools: they can turn people away. They can limit enrollment, and they can refuse to accept or keep kids with behavior or learning problems. No wonder they attract attention! What if public schools could limit enrollment to avoid overcrowding, and what if there were other (better) systems in place for disruptive students?

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The H Bomb Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
56. I still don't see it
First off, hello.
I'm sorry I still don't see why we shouldn't use vouchers. Everyone knows that the current system is a mess and the only reasons I hear for keeping them are
1. But then publics will be even worse
2. But what about the handicapped
3. But all private schools are run by crazy religious people
4. What if the private schools suck

To this, I say
1. Then the students can all leave
2. Then the handicapped can stay, public schools could focus on the developmentally challenged. Or the handicapped could go to schools specializing in helping them get an education
3. Completely untrue I myself am attending my 9th school. Of those, 7 were private and only one had a religious component.
4. Obviously, the private schools will have to be accredited and monitered for quality if they are going to accept government money. That should remove any bad schools relatively quickly.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-25-06 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. you missed the main reason against them.
Vouchers will *not* enable most students who cannot now afford private school to afford private school.

1. Then the students can all leave

See my point above.

2. Then the handicapped can stay, public schools could focus on the developmentally challenged. Or the handicapped could go to schools specializing in helping them get an education

In the case of the huge majority of special education students, segregating them from their non-disabled peers violates what is called "least restrictive environment". It's against the law, and for good reason.

3. Completely untrue I myself am attending my 9th school. Of those, 7 were private and only one had a religious component.

Not all of them are, of course.

4. Obviously, the private schools will have to be accredited and monitered for quality if they are going to accept government money. That should remove any bad schools relatively quickly.

We already have that state of affairs. They're called "public schools".
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ecassese Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #57
63. Center for Education Reform Report
From http://www.edreform.com/index.cfm?fuseAction=document&d...

Schools like Metro Deaf in St. Paul, Minnesota, and The APPLE School in Lakeland, Florida, (with an enrollment of 85% ADD / ADHD students, 16% of whom also have additional disabilities) actively reach out to the special education student population. A study by the Hudson Institute found that 19% of the students in charter schools they surveyed had disabilities or impediments that affect their education. The study concluded, "Contrary to some forecasts, charter schools are serving proportionately more disabled youngsters than are conventional schools. Many disabled youngsters in charter schools are being educated in ways that do not conform to the formal procedures and classifications of U.S. special education, yet such children appear to be well-served, and they and their parents are pleased."

In fact, charter schools often work to reduce their special education rolls not by excluding such students, but by working intensively with them within the regular classroom setting. They take all students, but resist the ever-growing district practice of labeling all difficult or low-achieving children as "special education" just in an effort to get them out of the regular classroom or pick up additional special-ed funds. As a result, the number of special education students some charter schools serve may actually seem less than a traditional public school's, inviting the charge that they're exclusionary.

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FormerDem06 Donating Member (308 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #57
64. I just sent my son to a year of kindergarten
And what did he learn? Not a thing. My wife is fortunate enough to be able to stay home and raise our kids. She had already taught him to read and do basic math.

We have the "least restrictive environment" principle here in North Carolina. We placed Luke in a federally funded school that emphasized smaller class sizes. Since our school system refused to pay for aids for the five "impaired" students in our classroom, the teachers spent the whole year trying to get them classified as such and that means following the kids around 24/7 with a notebook documenting all the hitting and kicking and troubles that these kids endured.

Our school required parents to volunteer, so I spent a lot of my time in the classroom (early lunch from work and the like). 70% of the time I was there the teachers were compensating for "least restrictive environment". All four of the kindergarten teachers are leaving teaching this year, as well as three of the first grade teachers. This "least restrictive" stuff is killing them.

My wife is a former special education and hearing impaired teacher who swears that the least restrictive environment is a self-contained classroom for most of these kids. They learn more in 1 teacher to 10 student ratio class than in a 1 to 28 environment.

My son would have benefitted 1000% from being in a private school this year. But I don't think vouchers are the answer. We are thankfully in a position to take matters into our own hands and homeschool at least for the next 3-4 years. My wife sees it as a way to use her certification in some way and also as a way to keep my son two grade levels ahead as he was when he entered kindergarten. We definately won't use it as a form of indoctrination, but more to help our son (who is exceptional) stay on track until the public school system will define him as such (third grade in NC).

The parents have broken the school system by not doing their jobs at home. It's time they step up to the plate and help fix the problem or be resigned to the fact that they are creating a country of folks who care more about American Idol that the direction and future of the country.

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melissinha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
65. Vouchers take funds away from Public Schools
Edited on Wed Jun-14-06 02:42 PM by melissinha
From what I understand there is a "per student allotment", when a voucher is accepted, that per student allotment is withheld from the Public Schools that count on those funds and the voucher is a portion of that per student allotment in the form of a voucher to "defray" tuition costs..... Its just a means to defund Public Schools and save tax payer dollars for more important things like Military Defense and Military Contractors..... :sarcasm:

There are still some good schools in this country, unfortunately most people don't see the benefit in moving to the Midwest or can't count on a job to get there.

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