Filmmakers offer an inside look at NYC's 'rubber rooms'

[tonysam]

The release of this documentary is LONG overdue. The question as to whether it does any good for public comment about the plight of teachers is something else altogether.

Their footage reveals the maddening culture in which more than 600 banned city teachers -- fighting being fired or waiting for their names to be cleared -- are kept in this purgatory and try to stave off boredom any way they can.

The filmmakers found one teacher who had been in a rubber room for 12 years.

Doodling is a popular pastime. Others read every word of the newspaper. Many gulp down cup after cup of coffee.

The more motivated among them work on laptops -- sometimes to earn higher-education degrees or to run side businesses, both of which are against the rules.

The rooms are depressing. One space is large and windowless, flooded by bright florescent light, jammed with rows of large aging desks, metal folding chairs and debris, including foam cups, newspapers and plastic bags.

The walls bear the same blue-and-white pattern used at Rikers Island.

More from the New York Post

[FBaggins]

1. "both of which are against the rules"

Seriously?

You can't even work on continuing ed? I'm pretty sure that the contract allows them to request work from the district, I can't see why this would be disallowed.

We can't keep them from taking a night job and sleeping during the rubber shift... why would this be a problem?

from the New York Post

Hmmm.... that's not promising. The sample list of teachers at the end of the article does not seem to be a representative sampling.

[YOY]

2. and of course the Post points out that taxpayers are paying for this.

No demand to fix the problem. Just throw the whole thing away. Always the Republican fix for broken programs.

Fucking Murdoch rag.

[tonysam]

3. Of course it's slanted

The point is the movie is coming out after what seems to be years of delays.

[LiberalFighter]

4. So they are awaiting discipline procedures and have to wait in a room for months?

How much would they save if instead of being put on administrative leave and requiring them to show up each day at the "rubber room" until the outcome of the procedures that they stay away except for those times when they have a hearing during the administrative leave?

How much does it cost to maintain lighting, cooling and heating, supervision, etc?

[BlueInMass]

5. I agree with you

I think NY would save even more money if that administrative leave was unpaid. I bet if it were unpaid, the cases would move through the system faster, or perhaps get some of these teachers to go do something else for a living. I think it goes a long way toward the character of these people that they are willing to sit in a rubber room for years while their case is heard.

[tonysam]

6. Did it ever occur to you that few of these teachers are in there for real reasons?

Mostly it's because principals don't like these teachers or they have been instructed to try and force senior teachers out or these teachers are "overaged" teachers from other schools who have not been reassigned and are supposed to be.

Why it is assumed these teachers deserved what they got? Why is it assumed principals are so fucking benevolent and care about their students? Indeed, what makes anti-teacher people tick?

Teaching is considered a property right because of the nature of the job and it is governed by administrative law. This is not at all like working in a business. Kids have the right to a stable learning environment and not having a revolving door staff that a nutjob principal can get rid of.

There is an extreme power imbalance between teachers and principals, which most people are unaware.

[Smarmie Doofus]

8. So .... they should be suspended without pay, basically.

Ahem. What if the charges are frivolous?

(Hint: They frequently are.)

[BlueInMass]

18. I will not accept that they are

FREQUENTLY frivolous. out of curiosity, do you have any stats on how often the district wins or the teacher wins at the hearing? I don't have these numbers, but I would be interested to see if the real numbers support your claim that the charges are frequently frivolous.

[Hannah Bell]

19. thanks for your support of punishment before trial & the continuing attack on workers.

winger talking points & propaganda from you, noted. you "blue" person, you.

[BlueInMass]

21. Nice counter-arguement

You don't teach debate, I hope.

[Smarmie Doofus]

20. The city won't release stats on 3020-a hearings.

>>>>do you have any stats on how often the district wins or the teacher wins at the hearing>>>>>>


NYS stats ... inclusive of the city..... are google-able. If it (NYC) did, it would likely be of limited utility... as there are many variables and complexities built into the system, the net effect of which distorts the true impact of "the rubber room". Example: many people retire when rubber roomed ( indeed, that seems to be the idea in many cases, from the system's pov).



>>>the cases would move through the system faster, or perhaps get some of these teachers to go do something else for a living. I think it goes a long way toward the character of these people that they are willing to sit in a rubber room for years while their case is heard.>>>>>

Yikes. Nothing like approaching the issue with an open mind. They must be guilty of *something*; otherwise they wouldn't be there. I hope you're never on MY jury.

Say you had been trained, licensed and become entrenched within a particular profession... and then had all that challenged because a teenager got mad at you and accused you of corporal punishment ( "touching" her ) because you took her deck of playing cards away from her in the middle of a science class. ( True story, BTW.)

You would just give-in and work at KMART? Come on.

[BlueInMass]

22. I think you fail to realize...

that these things happen in the non-teaching world every day. Many of us non-teachers do not have the protection of the rubber room system of mediation. In the private sector, if your boss does not like you, you're gone, that's it. You don't even have to be accused of anything.

I am not a teacher, but I am surrounded by them in my family, including my wife. I acknowledge that there are false claims, but I dispute the frequency of these claims being false.

Why work at K-Mart? Teachers are educated, correct? Often times they hold masters degrees. There are opportunities out there, and a rubber room stay does not mean that you cannot teach again.

I absolutely do think there is a character flaw in those people that would sit for years waiting for their case to be heard, and I can guarantee you that some make sure their cases take as long as possible so they can stay there as long as possible.

The person commenting before you called me a right winger, basically. I think I am done with him, since his skills of debate are not up to par, but this is not a red or blue issue (by the way, what a horrible way to retort, "oh yeah, well your a repug. Nice, and very well thought out). this is an education issue and as long as the already hurting schools are paying exorbitant sums of money to keep these inefficient processes in place, our money is not going toward education.

[Smarmie Doofus]

25. You're all over the place.

>>>>>>that these things happen in the non-teaching world every day. Many of us non-teachers do not have the protection of the rubber room system of mediation. In the private sector, if your boss does not like you, you're gone, that's it. You don't even have to be accused of anything.>>>>>

Teaching is NOT the same as other fields of endeavor. It by definition political and involves risks peculiar to that profession. This has been recognized for a couple thousand years.

Wiki:

>>>>>Academic tenure is primarily intended to guarantee the right to academic freedom: it protects teachers and researchers when they dissent from prevailing opinion, openly disagree with authorities of any sort, or spend time on unfashionable topics. Thus academic tenure is similar to the lifetime tenure that protects some judges from external pressure. Without job security, the scholarly community as a whole might favor "safe" lines of inquiry. The intent of tenure is to allow original ideas to be more likely to arise, by giving scholars the intellectual autonomy to investigate the problems and solutions about which they are most passionate, and to report their honest conclusions. In economies where higher education is provided by the private sector, tenure also has the effect of helping to ensure the integrity of the grading system. Absent tenure, professors could be pressured by administrators to issue higher grades for attracting and keeping a greater number of students.>>>

That passage is important in it's entirety but the last sentence has particular resonance now... as RTTP freaks all over America fall over each other cooking the academic books like there's no tomorrow and DOING EVERYONE( students, teachers ,parents -- *everyone*) A PROFOUND INJUSTICE in the process.




>>>>I absolutely do think there is a character flaw in those people that would sit for years waiting for their case to be heard, and I can guarantee you that some make sure their cases take as long as possible so they can stay there as long as possible>>>>

You seem to know a lot about these folks, none of whom you've ever met. ( Correct me if I'm wrong.)

No one who's sent to a rubber room *knows* the duration of their stay. Frivolous charges are often dropped as soon as someone in the investigatory bureaucracy with a brain looks into the accusation.These are usually case where there is no political or professional axe to grind. ( See the wiki entry above.) Even in these slam dunk cases it can take months before the falsely accused is returned to the classroom. I HAVE SEEN THIS HAPPEN so I *know* that it is true. That is to say, even though the innocence of the accused is established to the satisfaction of the investigator, the teacher sits in the rubber room with the expectancy that eventually someone in the district office will tell the principal... in *writing* of course.... that he/she has to allow Teacher X back in the building.

Should Teacher X bail and go into another field entirely rather than hang on? What if Teacher X really loves teaching? These are questions that a lot of people in that position probably struggle with. Too bad it's not as simple for them as it seems to be for you.

You seem like an intelligent and well meaning person but there's a lot going on here that you don't understand... even though you have family who are teachers. Why don't you spend some time going thru the Education forum archives. A lot of these questions have been hashed out previously. See if you can find my thread on the NYC teacher who was dragged to 3020-a hearing ( and I believe "successfully" fired) because he used *candy* as an incentive.

Later.

[hughee99]

26. Is this really unique to teaching?

"Cooking the books"? Is that academic in origin? I was under the impression that it's origin was in accounting. How can that be, though as this situation is UNIQUE to teachers?

Accountants can't be pressured into approving of questionable accounting techniques, reporters and editors can't be pressured into putting out certain kind of stories and killing others, investment people aren't pressured to recommend one thing or another, scientists can't be pressured to produce results based on their funding source (see the global warming studies funded by the fossil fuels industries). Hell, quality assurance people are pressured to "overlook" some issues in the name of the bottom line. All do everyone a profound injustice. The only difference is that none of the people in those professions have ANY protections or recourse if they don't give in to the pressure.

I certainly wouldn't argue that this doesn't occur in teaching, but don't see how it's unique to teachers either.

[Smarmie Doofus]

28. Probably not. But it seems to me your argument.....

... to the degree that you have one... is with western civilization and not with me.

Without question, some of us would not have gone into teaching in the first place without the lure of the relative independence promised by tenure.

Maybe accountants, et al. should have tenure too. Maybe that's why god created labor unions and labor law.

[tonysam]

27. You also aren't blackballed systemwide (all 50 states) for having been fired in private business.

Most of these principals aren't worth a shit anyway, and they AREN'T closely supervised, unlike supervisors in business. THAT'S the problem in a nutshell; they do whatever the hell they want knowing the districts, through taxpayer funds, will support them through the Court of Appeals. Teachers don't have a prayer in this system, with the unions generally being worthless in defending individual teachers, and disclosure questions on district applications make it extremely difficult to ever work in teaching again.

This isn't true in ANY other field. It's claimed that teachers are "supposed" to be held to a higher standard, but given the filthy politics in public education, school districts in reality operate at a lower standard.

[BlueInMass]

29. Yes you are blackballed...

While I appreciate the dilemma teachers have, I truly do despite what you may think. It truly is not different than other professions, exceptthat you actually have MORE protection, not less. I hear the arguement, "your not a teacher so you do not understand." It just doesn't wash with me. Perhaps I would make the arguement that your lack of experience in something other than teaching limits your knowledge of the politics that plague every person that gets up and goes to work in the morning.

Yes, you are blackballed. It's called a resume. Employers do check on your past employment history, and if you are missing some time, they will notice.

The point of this whole thing is that the rubber room system is lousy for everyone, expensive and ineffective. It seems like no one is eager to get it resolved or reformed, though.

I don't play professional baseball either, but I do like to comment on it, and I think my opinions are still valid.

[tonysam]

23. I had read someplace it was something like 4 percent of the teachers were reinstated

In other words, it is almost impossible for teachers to "win" these sham hearings, which are LEGAL proceedings supposedly governed by the same rules as regular trials. But the reinstatement rate is probably higher than that now when so many ATRs and the like have been thrown in these rooms. This is ONLY NYC, however, where teachers have FAR more rights than just about any other teachers in the country. It is far, far lower in other parts of the country; in fact, it is virtually impossible for teachers to "win" these hearings. They usually end up resigning or taking a piddling excuse for a settlement. Does this person think teachers can easily retrain for another career? What the fuck planet does this person live on?

I am 55 years old, self-supporting, with NO means of being "retrained" for another "career," after my goddamned fucking career was stolen by these crooks at Washoe County School District. I spent YEARS training for this career, only to have it stolen by these sociopathic shitbags.

The fact is principals INVENT charges all the time against teachers they don't want with the knowledge the school districts, with TAXPAYER MONEY, will defend them all the way to the court of appeals. These district people commit perjury, forge documents, suborn perjury, bribe or otherwise tamper with witnesses, union lawyers deny teachers witnesses, and so forth, to protect the principal.

The hearings are typically held on school district property, which compromises any sense of impartiality or neutrality on the part of hearing officers. If these are indeed legal proceedings, they need to be held in a neutral location.

I've been through this shit and KNOW what I am talking about.

[BlueInMass]

24. First of all...

Re-training for another career at 55 years old is NOT a situation that is found only in the profession of teaching. My question is, what type of behavior does a teacher have to exhibit to allow the principal to fire them and have the evidence to get it to hold up?

In the non-teaching world you can get fired for being a general pain in the ass. If your principal finds you to be the same kind of person, you may find yourself on the outs. My advice for teachers that want to avoid these situations is, like people do in the non-teaching world, don't be a mal-content at work. Don't be a clubhouse lawyer. Will it protect you from the false charges, no. And I admit that it DOES happen. It will increase your chances of staying in the clear, though.

I repeat, I am not saying that there are not falsely accused teachers. I am finding fault with the consistant use of the word "frequently" when it comes to these bogus charges.

[LiberalFighter]

10. And how many that don't deserve to be terminated are in this group?

From what I could tell the school administrators don't want to deal with the problem if there is one. By problem, I mean those that possibly should be removed from their positions. But, I don't think that is the case in most of the teachers. It most likely that school administrators don't like the teachers for one reason or another.

If they required that teachers be on suspension for one reason or another until their case is heard then it should be outside the school. That would encourage the administrators to get with the program and resolve the cases in a more timely fashion. Any time anyone delays the process as NY has been doing then it can only because the administrators are incompetent and waste taxpayers money.

[tonysam]

12. The VAST majority don't belong there

You have NO clue how much power principals have--it is ABSOLUTE and is unlike ANYTHING in the private sector. Now they are being told by BloomKlein to get rid of teachers, especially older, senior teachers in order to save money since they make more money than a bimbo right of college or a TFA.

Very few teachers are removed for real misconduct; most are removed for trumped up charges, which are almost always upheld by arbitrators or school boards, depending on the state (NYC has a somewhat higher number of teachers reinstated). Then teachers are typically too poor to appeal the decisions through the court system, as they have to hire attorneys and pay the fees up front. And if teachers have a shitty union like I had, they aren't told they could go to EEOC or DOL and file complaints, but those departments have a very short statute of limitations. Civil courts generally offer little recourse for fired teachers.

Why the hell should teachers be without pay, starving to death, while their "cases" are being adjudicated? The ONLY reason districts don't pay teachers on administrative leave is to starve them into settling. Washoe County School District tried that shit with me, starving me out all the while cutting deals with the so-called union, which didn't do squat for me.

I DIDN'T fucking settle with them--they offered me a piddling $10,000 to settle, and I would have sacrificed UI for it. Screw that shit; I have received FAR more in UI than I would have gotten in a stupid settlement.

[LiberalFighter]

13. Just to be clear. I don't approve of what was happening in that article.

I don't think it right to create the impression that everyone is up on sexual misconduct or other inappropriate charges. And I think that they go at it wrong when they require them to show up every day until there is a final disposition at the expense of taxpayers when it work just as well to restrict access to the schools except for hearings.

The school administrators are a bunch of boneheads.

[BlueInMass]

14. to say that...

a vast majority of them do not belong there is ridiculous. you many be able to say that some do not belong there, even many do not belong there, but a VAST Majority? No, I do not buy that. If people find themselves on the wrong side of their principal, school committee, etc, it is probably (I didn't say always) for a good reason. They may be bad teachers, they may be creepy, they may have attitude issues. By the way, these are things that people get fired for in the non-teaching world also. I believe that everyone should have their say, but to sit 6 years in a rubber room awaiting a trial? I would like to know what happens at the end of these hearings. Do they result in teachers being given their jobs back? do they get a settlement? Do they lose their jobs? I really don't know these answers, so if anyone has any data, I would be interested to find out.

I would think that it would be very hard to go back to the school system that sent you to occupational Siberia. If a settlement is the more common result, why do people wait for their hearing? Wouldn't they want to go do something else instead of sit all day for months or years. their case will be heard whether they are in the rubber room or not, right? If they are not going back to their school, shouldn't they move on?

Perhaps a solution would be, to help this process move forward, to have the teachers in the rubber room pay back all the money they collected if they lose their case? It does sound ridiculous, but is it any more ridiculous than the reality of the rubber room system?

[tonysam]

16. And then the union's lawyers--forget it

The union lawyers are TOTALLY on the take. Case in point, which I mentioned on another board:

Just to illustrate how much in the tank union lawyers are with school
districts, and mine was in Nevada, because I believe at least one of the
documents in my "due process" hearing was falsified, I am trying to get a
copy of this document from the union's lawyer to compare with my original,
which I recently found. His paralegal was going to get it for me, but
evidently he was either told he couldn't do that, or else the document was no
longer in the law firm's copy of the district's exhibit file (all parties in
the hearing had exhibit files from both the union's lawyer's and the
district's). I have had NO problem obtaining other documents from this law
firm or having documents from them sent to other lawyers. But when it comes
to this particular document, the lawyer is stonewalling. He apparently was
told by the school district's outside law firm that I had told them that
among the reasons I was not cooperating in a civil action by a parent in
which I am named as a defendant was because I believed this particular letter
was falsified. I have a right to any documents in those files pertaining to
my hearing. It's that cut and dried. If the document is the same thing as
the original I received, then there shouldn't be any problem in my getting a
copy. But I believe his stonewalling is PROOF the document was altered and
fraud was committed at my hearing by the district's lawyer when he introduced
it as an exhibit and asked me about it. I have now given the union's lawyer
an ultimatum of providing this document or I will report him to the Nevada
State Bar.

He is DEFENDING the district's wrongdoing and covering for its lawyer, a
lawyer who should actually have disciplinary action taken against him if he
has indeed committed fraud against a court, albeit an administrative court.

Ten cents says this "lawyer" will not honor my request for a copy of this document, a document which I had received by mail. As I wrote above, if the document is the same as my original, there is no reason whatsoever not to send it. His behavior is that of a guilty man protecting a colleague from almost certain disciplinary action.

[BlueInMass]

17. Then it sounds like the problem is

the union, not the school system. If a lawyer your union hired is "in the bag" for the school district, then the issue is with the union.

I find it hard to believe that the union would hire an attorney with a history of working to the benefit of the school district. If what you say really is accurate, you are better off without the union's help.

Over half of my family are teachers, including my wife, mother and brother, and they have seen a few teachers put on administrative leave. Each of my family members in the profession has told me that if you get put on leave, there is more than likely a good reason for it, and insubordination counts as a good reason. They can think of very few cases that a colleage of theirs was put on leave and it was unexpected. There are a few cases, though. I will acknowledge that teachers do get railroaded. it is an unfortunate fact. I just disagree with the oft-used premise that "many" or a "vast Majority" of these teachers are completely innocent.

[tonysam]

7. Blame the arbitrators for the hold ups. I believe the arbitrators work five days a month,

and they are backlogged in their cases.

[LiberalFighter]

9. They have teachers that have been on administrative leave for years.

Wouldn't it be more likely that the those there the longest would had been resolved by now? I think there is more that the school administrators let on to be.

[tonysam]

11. See above post about arbitrators

NYC's DOE has a set number of arbitrators who work five days a month. That's where the glitch is.

But you are one who thinks teachers ought to be shitcanned for the stupidest of reasons without any recourse.

[LiberalFighter]

15. I'm beginning to believe that you are not understanding my responses.