Oregon governor wants teachers to work for free.

[Reader Rabbit]

http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2009/02/kulongoski_to_teachers_work_fo.html

We all knew it was coming, but even though I was prepared, I still can't believe how angry I am.

[Skinner]

1. Is that even legal?

From Amendment 13 of the Constitution:

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

?

[YvonneCa]

14. It shouldn't be legal. Besides...

...I once worked for a principal who regulary said we teachers always volunteered in our own classrooms...because we were always working past contract hours, coming in early and staying late, conferencing late in the evening or on a Saturday, and using our 'free time' to buy needed things for our classroom, work on report cards, or take a class to keep our credential current.

This is about ending public education. It's not about the kids...or the teachers...anymore. If these politicians cared about the kids, they would support the people who care for them every day.

[musical_soul]

15. Exactly.

I was about to post exactly that. Teachers already work for free sometimes. That's the fun of working on a salary. It seems like nearly everything you see in a teacher's classroom is something they bought with their own money. If they do not get paid as much, they can't buy as much for the classroom.

[YvonneCa]

18. Nice to know I'm not alone. :) Maybe we teachers need...

...to hire a PR Rep (like the Octomom ;) ) to get the truth out there about our job. There are SO many misperceptions out there...and now it's starting to really hurt both teachers...and their students.

[bluestateguy]

2. Let me guess, it's "voluntary"

Which if you don't have tenure means not really voluntary.

I do, however, applaud him for cutting his own pay.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

3. Bingo.

Leaders of Oregon's teachers union did not outright reject the governor's suggestion of unpaid teaching days but said each district would have to figure out a balance between using reserves and other cost-saving measures.

"If we ask school folks to work for free, it means we are going to affect the economy even more greatly," said Gail Rasmussen, vice president of the Oregon Education Association. "These folks, too, are part of the fabric of their communities."

Kulongoski's comments came one day after legislative budget leaders went public with a list of proposed cuts, including a reduction to public schools that would force many districts to close early by an average of five days.

[Reader Rabbit]

5. And Portland Public set a precedent a few years ago.

Their teachers worked a number of days for free in 2003, I think it was. Obviously, their giving in to the emotional blackmail back then did nothing to change the way our state funds its schools.

[Ikonoklast]

4. And what if they get hurt on the job on a "No Pay" day?

Does Worker's Comp cover that? Or will they tell them 'too bad, you were volunteering'?
And what does the IRS feel about the 'working but not paying taxes' aspect of that?
Will they be able to deduct that labor as a 'contribution', or will they be taxed at the same rate because they are still performing labor for an employer?

This is a non-starter.

No PAY, no WORK.

[Reader Rabbit]

6. What's really depressing are the comments after the article.

So many people have disrespect for teachers and what we do. Is it any wonder that we're among the first to get shat on whenever things start going south?

*sigh*

[donco6]

63. Workers Comp covers all employees.

Even if you're not being paid, you don't lose your rights as an employee unless your contract is cancelled. The IRS only cares about what's on the W-2. They could probably deduct the labor as a contribution in kind.

But really, if you're going to have a furlough, everyone should go home. That's just silly to think they would work anyway.

[noamnety]

7. This seems fair. I'd be happy to work four days for free.

assuming, of course, they are going to pay me $93k a year.

Earning enough so there's tens of thousands of dollars extra in your budget makes it much easier to make grand gestures.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. Yeah really. I was going to say the same thing.

Pay me $93K a year and I will come in for free on a regular basis :)

[Catshrink]

8. No freaking way!

Enough of this "think of the poor children" crap. If we teachers want respect we need to stop letting people shitting on us and say no. I think the AEA should organize a "work our contracts" month to demonstrate just how much above and beyond classroom teaching we do.

For me it means arriving at 7:20 (classes begin at 7:30).

No student tutoring during lunchtime.

No serving on committees such as the special ed evaluation team, no club sponsorships (unless there's a stipend which kind of obligates the sponsor to continue).

Leave at 2:50. Period.

Take no work home and have kids grade their own or other student work.

Have kids use textbooks instead of supplemental materials that are far more interesting and better because there is no time to make copies (assuming our supply of paper and toner holds). That way I don't need to spend uncompensated hours at home developing or finding these better materials.

It isn't a strike so they can't fire us.

But if it does happen, I can see them patting us on the heads and saying "nice teacher."

You're right. They just don't value education and the work we do.

[femmocrat]

9. I have finally started to work this way, too. And I have far less stress.

For years I busted my butt, taking home work that would take the entire weekend to complete, serving long hours on committees, chaperoning dances, etc. Not any more.

It got me no where. I was treated like crap while the "in crowd" who palled around together and did nothing extra, got all the perks like cushy schedules and no duties.

I learned the hard way after having killer schedules, being assigned to the worst rooms and students, being furloughed, transferred involuntarily, and just generally treated with no respect. It's not worth it.

Young teachers: Enjoy your life outside the classroom. It's JUST A JOB, not a calling. Take it from someone who has been there.

[ChazII]

10. It has been mentioned

at our association meeting in my school district.

[Catshrink]

11. Here's another angle

We are under contract. They are asking us to change that contract so we don't get paid as much as contractually agreed.

Are they asking others with whom they have contracts -- construction companies, utilities, etc. -- to change the contract so they can pay them less? I bet not.

Your Governor must assume that teachers are easy targets -- they all do. They assume we're altruistic and will bend over backwards "for the children." I'm tired of bending. Let someone else do it or, be mature and responsible and get over the failed Republican meme of "cutting taxes." That's what got us into this bind. So wanna guess what will get us out?

[LWolf]

12. Yes.

In my district, and those in my region, we have not yet discussed working for free.

There HAS been a great deal of frantic discussion about early school closures.

Our superintendent sent us a memo on Friday that said, in the midst of all the rhetoric, "In order to meet the anticipated shortfall for this school year, some combination of reducing staff, salary freezes, elimination of programs, extra-curricular activities, shorter school year, etc., will be considered."

Salaries have already been frozen. Some extra curricular activities have already been canceled. Some programs have been canceled for the remainder of the year. Supply budgets have been, not frozen, but taken back entirely.

Since all that was done BEFORE the lastest news, that leaves staff reductions and a shorter school year, which is a pay cut.

I won't be working for free. I still have to pay for the gas to get to school every day. I'll stay home instead, and do my best to find some odd jobs to make up the difference.

Not that there ARE any other short-term jobs out there. The rest of the community is facing cuts in hours and lay-offs, as well.

[Sabriel]

13. So, will the lawmakers also work for free?

And how about the doctors? And is the power company going to provide 7 days of power but only charge for 6? I think not.

Teaching has traditionally been women's work, and this is yet another way of pressuring women to give in and devalue their own worth.

Arrrrrrrggghhhh.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. "Don't even think about dipping into state reserve accounts to balance the current budget."

You have to wonder what these reserve accounts are for. :wtf:

[Taitertots]

19. Teachers complain so much

I worked everyday in April and May this summer. At least two of the days each week I worked over 12 hours. During that time I was making significantly below teaching salary with no benefits at all. The only reason I don't work everyday now is that I have college classes and a different job. Of course for my current job I get stuck with the occasional 16 hour days.


For a group that gets weekends off, summers off, holidays off, benefits, and high wages teachers seem to complain a lot.

[YvonneCa]

20. Welcome to DU, you poor confused person...

...you.:nopity:

"For a group that gets weekends off, summers off, holidays off, benefits, and high wages teachers seem to complain a lot."

Is this what you really thin? If so, you've fallen for the RW line...

[Taitertots]

21. It must be so hard

...Teachers :nopity:

Are you really going to say that teachers don't get weekends off, have job security, have benefits, and living wages? Sounds like heaven to me.

Compared to how everyone else I know lives with working weekends, no benefits, barely above minimum wage, get fired for nothing, sweating, bleeding, and barely making a living.

If you think teaching is so hard, then you have fallen for the teachers line.

[Goblinmonger]

23. If you think teaching is so easy

then why aren't you doing it? Someone tell you you couldn't go to college and get a degree and then constantly take more classes, have to get a masters so you can actually make more money? Pretty easy to sit on the shore and toss rocks. Why not come into the water if it's so damn easy. I have done all kinds of jobs and this is, by far, the hardest I have ever done.

[Taitertots]

24. Engineering student

The degree I'm working toward isn't going to carry over into teaching. I'm not going to give up my aspirations to teach and prove to you that it is easy. Doesn't that seem counter productive to my education and professional goals?


Where is the hard part? It is pretty easy to sit and exclaim about how hard teaching is, why not explain it to me. I've given you some of the reasons I think it is not, would you care to address them. "oh your not a teacher you can't understand" is about the most meaningless thing that could be put forth.

[YvonneCa]

27. Interesting post. The first part...

...

"The degree I'm working toward isn't going to carry over into teaching. I'm not going to give up my aspirations to teach and prove to you that it is easy. Doesn't that seem counter productive to my education and professional goals?"


...is just to counter the challenge (of the previous poster) that you should try teaching and see if you still think it's an easy job. Your answer is a version of 'how dare you even think I...an engineering student...would stoop so low as to teach.' me,me,me... It's this kind of answer that leads me to think you are young.

The second part of your answer...

"Where is the hard part? It is pretty easy to sit and exclaim about how hard teaching is, why not explain it to me. I've given you some of the reasons I think it is not, would you care to address them. "oh your not a teacher you can't understand" is about the most meaningless thing that could be put forth."


...is priceless. (BTW, the contraction for 'you are' is you're, not your). I'll let that poster give his/her own reasons. Here are a couple of mine:

Teaching, as a job, is hard because it is misunderstood...by students, politicians, parents, and the community as a whole. Teachers spend their hours either working WITH students and their families, PREPARING to work with students or their families, or EXPLAINING/DEFENDING their work with students and/or their families. This does not happen within their contract hours or the district or state's alloted time. Teachers' time is overextended and undervalued...and, thanks to NCLB...that is only getting worse.

While in the classroom, most good teachers...and that includes most of the profession... keep the other stresses away from the students and focus on teaching. To do that well, teachers need support from those around them...particularly principals and school administration. Today, that support has eroded...making the job of teaching very difficult. Because teachers are blamed for the problems of public education, good teachers are leaving the profession and it gets harder and harder to get new teachers to take on the job.

Politicians...maybe with good intentions...are making changes in education (good). Not all those changes make schools work for students, and the teacher is on the front line when that happens...every day.

[Taitertots]

31. I'm not going to become a teacher

Because my degree won't carry over credits. It would cost me two years and well over $10,000. I'm not young, I worked hard at shitty jobs for years before I decided that I needed a college education. Now I'm not going to spend several years and waste thousands of dollars to prove a point to you.

So where is the hard part? Compare teaching to roofing and teaching starts to look very easy. Compare teaching to a moving company and teaching starts to look easy. Compare teaching to getting bitched out by managers, yelled at by customers, and still making dramatically lower wages. Where is the hard part? All you can fall back on is the "you are not a teacher, you can't understand".

[YvonneCa]

34. Are you asking me, or are you...

...responding to goblinmonger?

[Goblinmonger]

42. I've done roofing

and it's a breeze compared to teaching. Biggest reason why: when you are done for the day, you don't have to bring anything home with you--you're done. And if you don't think that teachers get bitched out by students, principals, superintendents, parents, other teachers, you need to rethink that.

And I think you need to rethink the "lower wages" part. Starting teachers in WI make under 30K. That's $15/hour. Plenty of construction people make that and then some. I make more, but I have a masters in the subject I teach and should get paid more.

[joeglow3]

77. Is this a dick waving match?

Straight out of college, I made $37,000 WITH a masters (in accounting). I got 3 weeks off a year. I worked 45 hours most every week. During tax season (Jan 15 - Apr 15), I worked a minimum of 55 hours a week (6 days a week). The last month was about 90-100 hours a week (many days in a row, I worked until 3 in morning and had to be back in the office by 8. I also spent 1-2 months a year traveling, away from my family. Thus, to me, teaching seemed pretty nice (and I did spend some time in college pursuing a teaching degree).

[IrateCitizen]

38. As a former engineer turned teacher...

... I can say without a doubt that my job as an engineer was much, much easier than my job as a teacher.

Teaching can be either the easiest job or the hardest job, depending upon how you approach it. If you are dedicated toward improving your craft, developing interesting and challenging lessons, etc., then it is a very demanding job. It was not uncommon for me to spend 70 hours a week on my job last year, conducting research and developing lessons.

The weekends, summers and breaks are there to help you recharge (they're necessary in that regard, trust me) as well as to take classes and improve your curriculum. After all, good teaching requires a lot of preparation -- and that preparation can't be done at the same time as teaching kids.

[Goblinmonger]

43. Here are some of the reasons

off the top of my head as to why it is not an easy job.

1. Too many people just think it is about standing in front of a class and pontificating. If that is all it was, it would be kind of easy though many people forget to account for the prep that goes into it.
2. You have to stay on top of the educational field. You have to take classes for license renewal and make adjustments to your practice as new studies show what is most effective.
3. You have to stay on top of your discipline. You can't possibly skate by on that which you learned in college. You have to constantly keep up with your discipline. I am constantly reading literature to keep my English skills up.
4. You have to manage a classroom of 30 kids (I teach high school), many of whom don't want to be there and many of whom carry with them enormous baggage from what is going on in their personal life. You need to manage these kids while teaching them your discipline. In your class of 30 you will have geniuses in your subject as well as those that can barely read. You will need to teach those two levels as well as everyone in between in the same 50 minute period.
5. You will have an enormous amount of crap come down the pipe toward you from the administration. Huge amounts of paperwork and stuff they want you to do.
6. You will have more grading than you ever thought. This basically breaks down to about 2-3 hours of my time every night of the week. Granted, I am an English teacher and I knew this came with the job, but I don't have an 8 hour day.
7. You will have to track down kids to get their work done, explain to parents why their kids aren't getting their work done, and deal with 5 million other problems each day.
8. Yes you get prep time, but you won't ever be able to actually prep during that time since you will have #s 1-7 (minus the grading) to get done in that time.
9. You get to do all of these, as well as many other things I don't have the time to type, while making significantly less than those who have the same degree in the private sector.

Look, I like my job. I'm damn good at it and it makes me happy, but it really pisses me off when people think what I do is easy. It isn't. It's a lot of work that comes with very little respect from the public quite often.

[YvonneCa]

48. Great post. And a great...

...list. Mine is similar, except without the prep time (elementary).

I especially like...and agree with... this:

"Look, I like my job. I'm damn good at it and it makes me happy, but it really pisses me off when people think what I do is easy. It isn't. It's a lot of work that comes with very little respect from the public quite often."

Truer words were never spoken. Thank you for what you do for the kids you teach.

[KitSileya]

76. Bravo! It never ceases to amaze me,

that when so many (most?) think that teaching is the easiest job because of "all the vacations", they don't just become teachers themselves? I mean, if it's so cushy, why are we facing a major teacher shortage in a few years (here in Norway, at least?)

Norwegian teachers have it incredibly much better than American ones (a defined work year of 1687,5hrs, honored more in the breach of it, but still; a defined number of lessons taught, between 17 and 24 periods a week in high school depending on subject; less students in class with an average of 27 in ordinary classes and 15 in vocational classes) but our work is as little valued (in both compensation and work conditions) compared to the average Norwegian worker as American teachers are to the average American office worker.

The other day, a colleague dragged out the old chestnut about how the only worker who works less than a teacher is a preacher, for he only works on Sundays!

[YvonneCa]

25. Two things are pretty clear from your...

...posts.

1) You know nothing of schools or teaching, except, maybe, as being a student.

2) You must be pretty young.


I don't think I said "teaching was so hard." What I said was that you have some mistaken ideas about the teaching profession. Teachers work through weekends and holidays and sometimes summers, when they are not taking classes to keep their credentials up-to-date. There is a misperception out there that teachers only work the hours when schools accept students, and that is untrue. The other part of the job they do, without overtime pay, is to work with students one-to-one on academic or behavior needs, call parents, conference, complete report cards, design lessons, create data bases and interpret the data for their students, attend required district meetings, plan for and go to week-long camp experiences, take professional growth classes, etc. NONE of this is for extrqa compensation...and NONE of it can be done during school hours when students are present.

I'll give you a pass on that, because of #2...you seem young. The things you are saying...which sound more like complaining than anything I have said...are true for most jobs. Long hours, benefits gone or going, is the way of the world in the 21st century. Sad, but true. I don't like it either...but that's how it is. Why blame teachers for that?

[Taitertots]

29. I'm not young,

but I'm not Old.

I have had experience teaching, in head start and leading student groups. You can't put teaching on a pedestal where the only way to speak of it is by becoming a full-time teacher. I'm not a full-time teacher, but I have had to be an instructor for children. Several of my close friends are teachers now, and they say it is easier than any of the jobs they had before teaching. The man who was like a second father to me was a teacher for troubled students for over 30 years, and he said it isn't as difficult as any of his jobs before teaching.

I'm not blaming teachers. I'm saying for how good they have it they shouldn't complain nearly as much as some do.

[YvonneCa]

35. I'm not old, but...

...I'm not young, either. :7 Kudos to you for the Head Start work. I really think you have me confused with goblinmonger.


Was I complaining?

[Reader Rabbit]

22. You are being manipulated.

Throughout history, those with power have kept the groundlings under control by keeping us divided. Scapegoating benefits only those in power, who reap all manner of benefits as long as the "little people" fight amongst themselves.

You and many other Americans need to stop thinking hierarchically. You don't need to push someone off the next rung of the ladder in order to get humane treatment from an employer. That's what TPTB want you to think. That way, you're focused on the ladder, instead of on the fat cat sitting on the building the ladder is leaning against. If you do start looking at that guy, he just has to give the ladder a few shakes, to divert your attention to the person you think is on the next rung.

Your anger against teachers—because you perceive that they have cushy jobs, while you work hard for a pittance—helps no one but those who made you a wage slave and who gain from your labor. As long as your resentment is directed at those who you think have it better than you, you will not be questioning your own boss as to why you don't get the same.

In this current financial crises, you have played right into the hands of those who created it and those who are profiting from it. If you want better for yourself, stop going after the corporate-designated scapegoat. Go after the people who are keeping you down: I assure you, it isn't the teachers.

[Taitertots]

26. I'm not angry at teachers

I just recognize that what they have a very good situation and act like it is the most difficult thing on earth. I'm not a hater, mad because they have that situation, I just think people who have it so nice shouldn't complain like its the end of the world. Then if you criticize them for complaining you get a huge diatribe; where they don't explain how hard it is. It just sounds ungrateful to people who don't have it that good.

[YvonneCa]

28. I don't think you're a hater. I just think...

...you are making a judgment on something where you have no experience. Is it possible that you also have a 'tad' of jealousy? If so, why is that?

[Taitertots]

30. Since I'm not a full-time teacher

I can't make a judgment about teachers or teaching.

You have no experience as a administrator so you can't make any judgments about anything they do.

[YvonneCa]

36. But you ARE making a judgment about both...

...the job of teaching AND about teachers. Do you not realize that?


BTW, how do you know I have no experience as an administrator? ;)

[Reader Rabbit]

32. Your own words contradict you.

You state several times that teachers have it "nice" or "easy," despite acknowledging that you have no experience as a full time teacher. When a number of teachers who do have experience seek to correct your misconception, you dismiss their statements out of hand, because they do not agree with your preconceived notions—notions you came to with precious little personal experience.

Simply put, you seem determined to disregard the opinions of the teachers here: This does not strike me as respectful of teachers. In fact, to so cavalierly brush off the opinions of experienced teachers suggests a contempt for the profession.

For my part, I will continue to speak out for myself and my profession when I see injustices or outright inanity. Similarly, I will ignore the opinions of people who think I shouldn't, particularly when said individuals arrive at those opinions with little or no firsthand evidence.

[Taitertots]

33. You don't need to be a firefighter to know its hard

How are calling it nice and easy indicating that I'm mad at them? Just because something is nice and easy doesn't mean it isn't valuable.

I don't have to build a space station to know its not easy. I have met plenty of teachers and have plenty of teachers as friends, family, and teachers. The general consensus is that its not especially demanding and its a pretty sweet deal. Not a one of them ever self aggrandizes or complains as much as some people here.

So should I listen to one complainer on the internet, or the preponderance of personal experience directly contradicting it.

[YvonneCa]

37. You should do more scientific research. To rely on...

...the subjective opinions of ANYONE...friend, family member, or internet buddy...is not a reliable way to know how things really are. If teachers you know are telling you that 'it's not especially demanding'...then I'd like to know where they work, because the teachers I know might want to move there. :)

[Taitertots]

47. Lets objectively look at it

1.If you screw up will you be injured or killed?
2.If you screw something up will other people be injured or killed?
3.Can you be fired for no reason anytime?
4.Do you have to work without vacations or days off?
5.Is the job physically demanding?
6.Is the job mentally demanding?
7.Are you forced to deal with abusive customers?
8.Are you paid below a living wage?
9.Is your job based on the completion of measurable objectives?
10.Do you have work that needs to be completed off work hours?
11.Do you have to work outside or in a uncomfortable environment?

How many of those do you answer yes to for teaching? You can answer and we can compare it to some of the jobs I have had. Then other people on the forum can answer and we can make an objective analysis. You can add some things if you feel the survey is lacking.

Before I started going to college I worked home construction and remodeling.
1.Yes 2.Yes 3.Yes 4.Yes 5.Yes 6.Yes 7.No 8.No 9.Yes 10.No 11.Yes
Last summer I worked as an on-road prototype vehicle driver for one of the big three.
1.Yes 2.Yes 3.Yes 4.Yes 5.No 6.Yes 7.No 8.Yes 9.Yes 10.No 11.Yes

Now my job is easy and I love it. The only thing is that to explain what my current job is tells everyone exactly where I work and they could easily find my work phone number, my bosses phone number, and other personal information about me. I'll admit what I do is the sofa job of all time. Thank god I got that edumuckation.


The real question is if teaching is so hard why are you a teacher and not a construction worker, doctor, police officer, engineer, McDonalds burger flipper, or any other job.

[YvonneCa]

49. No to #4 and #8. Yes to all the ...

...rest. As to the question about teaching being so hard...which I never said, BTW...I'll quote Goblinmonger:

"Look, I like my job. I'm damn good at it and it makes me happy, but it really pisses me off when people think what I do is easy. It isn't. It's a lot of work that comes with very little respect from the public quite often." I'm a teacher because of the kids.

[Taitertots]

53. #1 and #2 really?

There is no way on earth teaching is yes to #1 and #2. I consider teaching to be only yes to 6 and 10, being able to go either way on #3.

5.The most physically demanding thing you have to do is stand and write.
7.Students are not customers, they are a captive audience.
9.Teaching is far from being dependant on measurable objectives. At the end of the day your boss isn't going to fire you for not completing X, Y, or Z.
11.You don't work outside and a class room can't be considered an uncomfortable environment.

Do you wonder why teachers get such little respect, when they act like they can answer yes to #1 and #2?

[YvonneCa]

56. This just shows how little you know about the job of teaching. I'm not going to...

...take my time to go through your whole list, but here are a couple:

Your list:
1.If you screw up will you be injured or killed?
2.If you screw something up will other people be injured or killed?
3.Can you be fired for no reason anytime?
4.Do you have to work without vacations or days off?
5.Is the job physically demanding?
6.Is the job mentally demanding?
7.Are you forced to deal with abusive customers?
8.Are you paid below a living wage?
9.Is your job based on the completion of measurable objectives?
10.Do you have work that needs to be completed off work hours?
11.Do you have to work outside or in a uncomfortable environment?


#2 On my credential, it says BY LAW, that I must report suspected child abuse. If I fail this responsibility, a child could be injured or die. Teachers also take students to camp...sometimes for several days...as part of a science curriculum. If I don't do my job, enforce rules for the kids, they could ge injured or be lost or worse. My answer remains 'yes.'

#5 The job can be very physically demanding. In addition to hiking at camp, teachers have to set up their classrooms every year. Sometimes they must switch rooms in that process. Teachers pack and move their own 'stuff' along with district books, supplies and furniture. 'Sometimes' we get custodial help...but usually they are too overburdened themselves to help much. My answer remains 'yes.'

#7 My customers are students and community members. If you've ever worked in a customer service job, you know that some people are wonderfully nice and helpful and others can be awful and abusive. Most are in the middle. I have worked with abusive parents, students and even abusive principals. My answer remains 'yes.'

As to these words of yours:

5.The most physically demanding thing you have to do is stand and write.
7.Students are not customers, they are a captive audience.
9.Teaching is far from being dependant on measurable objectives. At the end of the day your boss isn't going to fire you for not completing X, Y, or Z.
11.You don't work outside and a class room can't be considered an uncomfortable environment.

None of this is true. Teachers don't just stand and write. While students may be a 'captive audience' by state and federal law which requires a free public education for our children, they are customers (if you use the business model, which doesn't really fit schools).Teachers should be judged on measurable objectives, but society hasn't yet figured out how to do that fairly...and I have been judged SOLELY by student test scores...if you think teachers can't be pushed out because of that, you'd be wrong. Finally, have you ever tried to gain the attention of 34 sweating students in 110 degree weather inside a room the sun beats down on for hours and you know they are just counting the drips of sweat on your face? That's inside, and we teachers also have activities and duties outside, no matter the weather. I'm not complaining, because that's where the students are, too...and they are children. How is it that this country doesn't care about that?

[Smarmie Doofus]

69. The answer to 1 is "yes" and the answer to 2 is also "yes".

You have a limited ( i.e. inacurrate)idea of what is involved in teaching in the year 2009. Perhaps it's different in rural areas. I work in special ed and by definition, many of my students are potentially violent. I work in an urban district. Many of my general ed colleagues have been and contiunue to worry about being assaulted or worse. All of our high schoools have metal detectors. The metal detectors are there do keep kids from bringing in *weaponry*.

Can we agree that the correct answer to # 1 is YES? At least for teachers in schools such as I describe?

And if 1 is YES then , I'm sure you'll agree... since we are responsible for the safety of the minors in our charge, in these same environments ... that # 2 is also, necessarily, YES.


>>>>Do you wonder why teachers get such little respect, when they act like they can answer yes to #1 and #2? >>>>>

I get annoyed with teachers who deny that *some* teachers are goof-offs. And I periodically blast them for this, since I don't see that as an honest answer. But the answer to 1 and 2 is *honestly* YES.... regardless of whatever misconceptions the public may wish to buy into about "teaching."

[tonysam]

70. The Answer to 3 is Yes

It is a MYTH there is job security associated with teaching. It is NOT true, and it is NOT true even after you receive "tenure," or a "post-probationary" contract. I am living proof of that. I was wrongly terminated over filling out an FMLA form out incorrectly because the district decided to retaliate when I had problems with a truly rotten previous administrator. The only thing "tenure" allows for a teacher is the "right" to a hearing before being dismissed, but if you are like me and are dumb enough to go the arbitration route instead of hiring an outside lawyer, you will find the process is a completely rigged game. You are not allowed witnesses on your behalf or can introduce evidence. Yet the district can bring in all kinds of witnesses who lie in front of a hearing officer, even though you supposedly take an oath. But the hearing officer already has decided to find for the district because arbitration is a very lucrative career, and these arbitrators want to keep getting employers' business. An outside attorney friend of mine told me few if any dismissed employees win in arbitrations.

I have two regrets during my tenure as a public school teacher in Nevada (in special education): one, that I didn't immediately report the s.o.b. principal when he tried to con me into violating federal law, and two, when I didn't hire an attorney immediately after being wrongfully terminated.

Now I have to start over. I have never gone through so much crap in my entire life as I went through as a teacher, and it was not because of the kids or even because of the parents; it was the assholes who are put into supervisory positions who should NEVER be there. It is much, much worse than in the private sector.

[Smarmie Doofus]

71. That's disgusting . Yet I'm not surprised.

I has an anlagous experience 10-15 years ago when I was punched and kicked repeatedly by a special ed student. I complained that he was not suspended , though another kid who attacked another teacher two weeks previously had been suspended. Long story short, I went thru the first two grievance steps... encouraged all along by the union rep and was told to prepare for the third step: arbitration. Suddenly all communication from the union rep was cut off. No calls returned. No communication at all. Clearly someone had "reached" him and some kind of under the table arrangement was struck.

Point: you cannot count on the unions: too much propensity for the development of incestuous relationships between the union biggies and the school administrators. After all... they have a lot in common: they both like the systyem the way it is and they both will do ANYTHING to stay out of the classroom. They also spend more time with each other than either of them spend with either rank and file teachers or school children. They start off as natural alllies.

Your case was worse than mine. Sorry for your trouble; don't let them get away with anything and welcome to DU !

[tonysam]

73. I Am VERY Pro-Union,

but unions are basically worthless if they are dealing with individuals; you find out the vaunted "job security" of teaching really doesn't exist. If school district employers want to get rid of you, they can do it, and they have a rigged system in place to make sure they get their way called arbitration. The key is for them and the so-called "unions," called "associations" here in Nevada, to con you into going into a hearing, and you basically sign away ALL your rights to sue. The union's lawyers NEVER told me when I signed the dotted line I would be losing all of my rights to take the district to court in this wrongful termination, and so I went through a rigged tribunal process where I could not call witnesses on my behalf, but the district's witnesses could literally brazenly lie to a hearing officer, which means taking an oath is useless. And the outcome was all preordained and I cannot appeal or file a civil lawsuit against the district. The kicker is the district is now a party in a civil lawsuit filed by the parent of one of my former students, and I am named as a defendant, and the district wants me to bail them out. Here I was, lied about in the hearing, called dishonest, called a liar, called a liar in documents written by a delusional principal (not the one who violated my civil rights by trying to get me to violate NCLB by attempting to pressure me to put kids on alternate testing who did NOT qualify) who was under pressure by human resources to throw me out on my butt, but now the district wants me to cooperate with them. In other words, I was "dishonest" when it was inconvenient for them, but now I am the paragon of integrity when it is convenient. Well, screw that and them. The lawsuit is bogus, but I am not cooperating, and the district will end up coughing up far more money to settle it than they ever had to pay out in sick leave for me.

The district was the worst employer I ever had in 35 years of being in the labor force.

[CRK7376]

60. As a former teacher who misses

the classroom and profession terribly, I have 8-Yes, 1-No, and 2-Yes/No combos n respone to your questions...

1. Yes-Think fire or chemical spill in a Chemistry class or basic gymnastics in a PE class where a student gets hurt, try breaking up a fight in between teenagers male or female in the classroom, hallways or at a ballgame, or try coaching a contact sport-football, wrestling, basketball, lacrosse, field hockey or soccer
2. Yes-Think fire or chemical spill in a Chemistry class or basic gymnastics in a PE class where a student gets hurt, try breaking up a fight between teenagers male or female in the classroom, hallways or at a ballgame or try coaching a contact sport-football, wrestling, basketball, lacrosse, field hockey or soccer
3. No
4. Yes/No Have you earned enough days for a vacation...typical new teachers have not, yes you have the whole summer off, but you are not paid for those months, if you are paid it is prorated over the course of 12 months. Yes you have some, but not all Federal/State/local holidays.
5. Yes/No Standing on a concrete floor without rubber padding or carpet gets old, but may not qualify for your definition of physically demanding....it wasn't for me, but I've been a soldier under horrible work/living conditions, I've done roofing, cinder block work, fence mending, ditch digging, primed tobacco too....
6. Yes-Teaching is mentally demanding and draining by the end of a long day/week/quarter/semester/year
7. Yes-Students and parents who curse and threaten you, students and parents who try to intimidate or start a physical altercation with you
8. Yes-I left teaching because of the low pay. Teaching and coaching two sports and I trying to raise a family of 5 on my teaching salary was impossible. Teaching in a rural school system with a 30 mile daily commute ate up the gas allowance
9. Yes-End of year testing and NCLB
10. Yes-Try grading 5 classes of 30+ students research papers, along with their tests and homework assignments, and the next day/week lesson plan in the 50minute planning period.
11. Yes-Spend time teaching in the rural, humid, south...my classroom for 7 of the 13 years I taught did not have central air conditioning or window units. I had 4-6 windows that only opened to a 45degree angle and temperatures in my classroom constantly exceeded 85 degrees on a daily basis between the start of the school year in mid August through mid October, then a cool spell until late March when the temperatures began rising and by mid April were back in the 80sdaily and by mid May were 85 or hotter....Oh yeah, the classrooms were packed with hot, sweating teenagers and teachers. Not a conducive learning environment if you ask me...
After reading your posts along with the reply, I’m torn in my answer to you. Teaching is the hardest job I’ve ever had. I will retire from the Army in a few more years and return to teaching and coaching which I love. I did not go to college directly from high school as a young man; I needed a break, but knew I would return to education when I was ready. I worked in construction, digging ditches and foundations, primed and strung tobacco in the middle of August and September in the Carolina heat and humidity, worked in a brick/cinder block factory stacking blocks that had just come out of the kiln, worked “piece work” for RJReynolds Tobacco company building shipping pallets for “tobacco hogs”, did some roofing and spent 6 years as an enlisted soldier. Got out of the Army, joined the Army Reserve and went to college on the GI Bill, worked as a student to earn a BA in Education and History. Taught and coached and raised a family. Got in a semester of Grad school until the money ran out and the family needs were more important than my continued education. Reached the breaking point financially and left teaching and coaching to reenter the Army as an Officer. Pay is much better as an officer than teaching, the Army has helped me earn three Masters degrees; an MBA in International Relations, MA in Education and a MS in Strategic Studies from the Army War College, but the hazards and time away from family are greater, the hours longer and yes it is a life or death or serious injury around just about every corner in Iraq, Afghanistan, the Philippines or the Horn of Africa.
Bottom line up front, I cannot wait to retire from the Army in a few more years and return to teaching and coaching. Teaching and coaching young people, kids, is an extremely tough, demanding job. I get fed up with people like you that think teaching is easy; spend a week or two in my boots or in the shoes of any classroom teacher if you want to know what hard work is about. The pay sucks, the rewards of seeing that student excel academically, or the athlete succeed is priceless. The demand for your time, attention, knowledge and compassion are tested on a daily, hourly basis. You, Taitertots, are a JACKASS based on most of your comments up and down this posting. You are mostly clueless about the teaching profession and what it takes. Flame on!

[YvonneCa]

62. Bless you. Thank you for your service...

...both to this country and to children.:patriot:

[LWolf]

39. I invite you to do my job for one school week.

We'll see if you last that long.

:rofl:

[Taitertots]

41. Unless you

Live near Michigan and have classes during the first week of march it probably won't work. I've got my current work and school schedule to deal with. If it could be scheduled I'd do it free just for the resume booster.

Something tells me you won't have a very easy time explaining why someone you have met on the internet is teaching for that week.

[YvonneCa]

44. Oh my goodness...

...the selfishness of it all.

[TruthTeller]

46. Are you up for the challenge?

I do live in Michigan. You are welcome to come to my classroom and teach for the first week of March. Hours that week will be 7:30 AM - 6:00 PM with 40 minute lunch and no breaks. You may need to take some work home so that you can complete all tasks assigned, so don't plan anything in the evenings.

TT

[YvonneCa]

50. ...

...:7

[Taitertots]

54. PM me the details

So I can call the administration and make sure both that you work there and that they will let this happen.

I get the feeling the whole letting someone you have never met teach for you for a week isn't going to play out very well for you. I'm fairly sure that you will lose your job if this happens.

[TruthTeller]

58. I can set it up

First of all, you never answered if you were up for the challenge. Second, I would be working WITH YOU! Seeing that you are not a certified teacher and my area of expertise doesn't just have textbooks to follow. I create my own lessons for 6 different grade levels plus a specialized class. Third, I have worked there since 1993. I would not extend the opportunity to you if I did not work there. Fourth, unless you are a CONVICTED criminal, you would be UNDER MY SUPERVISION! We do not do background checks for volunteers in my district. I CARE TOO MUCH about the safety of my students to allow ANYTHING to happen to them. Lastly, I am NOT STUPID as you implied by your tone of not setting this up with anyone--"oh, by the way, I did ask today already." I have an associates degree, bachelor's, master's and over 15 years experience. I am a district department head, building professional development coordinator, and new teacher mentor. I have been an officer in my association at the district level, representative for my colleagues at the state and national level, and represent two districts as chair of the public affairs committee.

Send me your information and I will begin working on getting things all set.

Your comments throughout this thread lead me to believe that you really are just wanting to blame people and make outrageous statements based on opinions rather than DATA. I suggest you do some research and quit listening to "talking points" which are baseless.

EDITED to ADD: I did not begin college until I was 25 years old. I waitressed for 17 years (many times two jobs) prior to becoming an educator; putting myself through all of the above college while living on my own. I received scholarships and grants by keeping my grade point average at a 3.98 and living below poverty level. I commuted a little over an hour one way to finish my Bachelors of Science and over 30 minutes one way afterschool to complete my Masters.

TT

[YvonneCa]

59. Great post. My story is similar, except that I went back...

...to finish college at 33, and I just retired last June. Thank you for all your hard work in support of children. :)

[LWolf]

51. No problem at all.

Of course, you'd have to pass a security check, like all of our volunteers do. And, of course, I'd be expected to make sure you didn't waste my students' time.

I have classes the first week of March; that's our final week of the 2nd trimester. I'm not in Michigan. I'm on the left coast in Oregon. If you can get here, you can try. You'll be working 7am - 5pm at school, except one evening that will extend to 7:00 for a parent meeting, and taking home another couple of hours of paperwork each evening.

Be sure to show up a few days early so you can get your lesson planning done. I'll bring the standards and the materials available. Let me know when you are done so I can check your plans for suitability.

[Taitertots]

55. Sorry

I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars on a vacation across the country to do your work for you for free.

[LWolf]

57. I think that's the point.

You couldn't do it.

Of course, my governor thinks I should do it "for free," so it's not like you'd be doing anything differently than a whole state full of teachers have been encouraged to do.

All the same, I didn't expect to see you.

Those who can do the job.

Those who can't are armchair quarterbacks.

[Dinger]

61. Weekends Off? Summers Off? High Wages?

You obviously don't have a clue.

[Smarmie Doofus]

66. No offense, guy. But I wish I had your discretionary time and energy:

>>>>Hunting, Fishing, Disc Golf, Golf, Camping, Wrench Turning, and Reading>>>>>

And college classes too?

Something doesn't add up here.

[eagertolearn]

40. I need help over here in La Grande. They've canceled the school play

because of content. I'll try and download the articles from the news paper but if I can't look up La Grande, Observer. A person from our community got a petition signed in her church and then the two lawyers that helped the superintendent to decide if this play is breaking policy are also from the same church. The scary part is that the superindentent agreed with this community member and said that the director had to take out everything she didn't like or pick another play. She wanted all sexual inneundo's taken out, all cuss words and any indication that people are drinking alcohol (the setting is in a bar in Paris???). The play is "Picasso at the Lapin Agile" by Steve Martin. It was just performed by West Linn High School near Portland and they have been selected to be one of the three plays performed at the Oregon State Thespian Conference in Eugene. I've tried to contact the Oregonian but have gotten no response. This is no longer just about the play but about Freedom of speech and censorship. She only supposedly agreed with 37% of the play (reported from my kid not official). How can you cut out 63% of a play? I'm sorry if I put this in the wrong spot but I have been a DU member for a while but have never started a post. Can someone direct me to the right people to help get this out. The play is rated PG13 but take out over half the play????

[YvonneCa]

45. Two ways to do this. You could post it here...

...in the education forum, but it won't be read by many people. Just click on the POST, pencil icon at the top of this page.

To get more viewers, go to DISCUSS(above) and click on that to get the lobby. Then choose General Discussion, GD, and post there the same way. (POST,pencil icon). If you have a link, be sure to add it.

I'm sorry for your situation. Teachers are in a tough spot these days...to blame for everything.

[eagertolearn]

72. Thanks, I finally figured it out.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

52. Several of my teaching friends in the UK have to subsidise their school out of their own pockets.

This isn't at all unprecedented.

Which is not, of course, to say that it's not a bad thing.

[donco6]

64. We're looking at a five-day furlough here.

But no "volunteering." We'd close the district down to the last light bulb.

[Lorax]

65. I am a special ed teacher.

Or I should say I was a special ed teacher until I had a cardiac incident this fall and I realized it was either get out or die in the classroom. Taitertots, here's my answer to your "objective" questions.

1.If you screw up will you be injured or killed?

I have been injured while working. I've had a broken nose, black eyes, and bruises and bites too numerous to count.

2.If you screw something up will other people be injured or killed?

The year I was teaching preK, one of the 4-year-old students went after one of the classroom assistants with a pair of scissors stolen from my desk. If I hadn't been able to stop him, he would have stabbed her. Teachers have to be on the ball every second of the day because it only takes a few seconds for something terrible to happen.

3.Can you be fired for no reason anytime?

Until they earn tenure, teachers can be fired at any time.

4.Do you have to work without vacations or days off?

I can't tell you how many times I pulled all-nighters. I'd work all day in the classroom, come home to eat dinner, then sit down to work on the endless IEP and other documentation paperwork until 5am the next day! By then it was time to take a shower and go back into the classroom to face another day. I did this many, many days and I am not the only special ed teacher I know who has done it. I literally did some kind of paperwork for my kids every single day of the week. I never, ever took a day off.

5.Is the job physically demanding?

How physically demanding do you think it is to repeatedly work 40 hours straight with no sleep? I rarely even ate lunch during the day because there was always a meeting called or a parent who needed something, or a student who needed something. Forget my planning period, I never got to use that either. I can count on one hand the number of times I have actually had time to go to the bathroom during the school day. I used to lose my voice every couple of weeks because of constant overuse.

My husband told me later that I used to look like the walking dead when I was teaching. He said I looked like someone who had just gotten out of combat.

6.Is the job mentally demanding?

At any given time I had up to 12 students on three different grade levels with completely different IEPs. Several of my students had Autism, a few had mental retardation, and a few were actually on grade-level but had behavior issues so severe that they couldn't function in a general education classroom. This made three grade levels more like six grade levels. I was teaching three different curricula at the same time and documenting everything each of those students did every day. Figuring out how to meet the needs of each of these students every day was the most mentally demanding thing I've ever done in my life.

7.Are you forced to deal with abusive customers?

I had a student who used to literally spit in the face of any staff member who told her she couldn't have something she wanted (i.e. something out of my desk). It was not uncommon for students to hit, bite, pinch, or kick in response to not getting their way. Let me just add that when I taught 3rd through 5th, most of these students were bigger than I am. I've had those same students say to me, "what are you gonna do, I'm special ed, you can't do anything to me".

8.Are you paid below a living wage?
I made 40K a year as a special ed teacher. Not a bad salary if you don't factor in all of the hours I worked off the clock. Or the amount of my own money that I spent to provide things for the classroom that the system didn't. If you do factor in all of the hours I worked off the clock, then yes I was paid below a living wage.

9.Is your job based on the completion of measurable objectives?

Each of my students had an IEP. An IEP is a huge document of measurable objectives. Not only was I expected to be teaching academics so that my students could pass the alternative assessments required by NCLB, but I was documenting how I was teaching them to use the toilet, or how to wear a sanitary pad, or how to wipe their face with a napkin after eating. I don't think I would have gotten fired if someone didn't learn to use the toilet but I was expected to document my efforts to try to teach him. And certainly if my kids were failing state assessments (which would cause our entire school to miss AYP) I would get fired.

10.Do you have work that needs to be completed off work hours?

The amount of work I was expected to do was absolutely without a doubt impossible to have been completed within the school day. There is no one in special ed who can get all of it done without taking work home every evening and every weekend.

11.Do you have to work outside or in a uncomfortable environment?

I didn't work outside but I would consider my environment uncomfortable. No air conditioning in a windowless classroom. Standing for 7 hours straight. Working while sick with the flu because I knew that the school couldn't get a sub for my class (no one wants to sub in a special ed class). Not using the bathroom for more than 8 hours.

The constant physical and mental stress of the job led to dangerously high blood pressure and cardiac arrhythmia. I ended up being admitted to the cardiac unit after I went to the ER complaining of chest pain and shortness of breath. While the ER nurses were sticking ECG leads onto my chest, my cell phone was going crazy with messages from the school wanting to know if I was going to get the paperwork in for the meeting that day since I had called out.

I was a career changer. Teaching was literally the hardest job I have ever had in my life, and I have done everything from housekeeping to farm work to "cushy" office jobs. The saddest thing is that I truly loved teaching, I loved my students, and I loved special ed. I just didn't love being a teacher and all of the crap that came with it.

I am a mother and there were many times I couldn't be there for my daughter because I had to do something for someone else's kid. But my daughter understood because she knew those kids needed someone. I am a wife and there were many times I had to ignore or neglect my husband so that I could do something for someone else who was ignored or neglected. Not only did he and my daughter not complain but they helped me out in any and every way they could. They packed my lunch and packed extra sandwiches so I could share with the students who didn't have something for lunch. They sat up with me and helped me make the classroom materials I needed because my school didn't supply them. They never complained but I was filled with guilt. I felt like if I spent the time I should have spent doing stuff for them, then I wouldn't have the time to do what was necessary to be a good teacher. But if I spent my time doing stuff to be a good teacher, then I would be a bad wife and mom. I should not have had to make that choice. Not for $40K a year. I shouldn't have had to sell my soul and when I look back on that it makes me sick.

The thing is that you just don't know until you've been there. You can be an assistant in the classroom, you can even student teach in someone else's classroom. But until it is your name on the door, your signature on all those legal documents, and your ultimate responsibility, you really can't say you know what it is like to be a teacher. And until you are willing to make the same sacrifices I and every other teacher makes, you aren't qualified to pass judgment.

[Smarmie Doofus]

67. KICK for this response alone.

People really don't understand special ed..... including ( especially!) educational administrators.

What a great post.

[CRK7376]

68. Awesome post

I didn't even think of the IEPs when I was replying to taitertots earlier. Although I never taught an entire classroom of SPecial Ed, I did teach many kids that had IEPs throughout my years in the classroom. I forgot about all the paperwork that goes with individual IEPs, you stated it perfectly, tons of it and it never seemed to end. Bless you, I could not work in the Special Ed classrooms.

[YvonneCa]

74. Thank you. From this teacher...

...of 24 years, just retired for the same health reasons, you ARE NOT alone. :hug:

[tonysam]

75. As I mentioned above,

number 3 is yes, regardless of whether you earn "tenure." Tenure is NOT a lifetime job; you can still be fired for any reason. As I mentioned, the key is for the district and union to try to persuade you to go through the rigged tribunal of arbitration, and very seldom do people get their jobs back after they have been terminated.

The only good thing tenure is for is during reductions in force.