Just like Favre to throw a INT when the game is on the line...

[Goblinmonger]

no, wait, that was Rodgers.

:rofl:

[a kennedy]

1. suffered a concussion too...

:cry:

[trotsky]

2. Ted Thompson's faults are going to show again.

The guy just can't maintain depth at the skill positions. Ryan Grant goes down, your running game falls apart. Rodgers goes down, and you turn to experienced vet backup... Matt Flynn? Say what you will about Tarvaris Jackson, but the guy has at least started some NFL games (and won them!).

[LiberalFighter]

3. I wasn't able to watch the game but why didn't they kick a field in OT

when they had the chance?

[Goblinmonger]

4. They were never close enough.

The interception came from mid-field.

[brendan120678]

5. You're a great fortune teller....

cause that's exactly what happened last night against the Jets!

[joeybee12]

7. Yeah, that was amazing...he was 14-34...yup, a gunslinger without

an ounce of sense, apparently both on and OFF the field.

[Goblinmonger]

10. Yeah, the Vikings couldn't handle the Jets like the Pats did.

Oh, wait....that's right. And the Pats got beat without Darrelle Revis on the field. At least the Vikings D kept them in the game unlike losing by 2 TDs.

[joeybee12]

11. If it makes you feel better, go ahead...

Favor is a bum, and you know it.

[Goblinmonger]

13. I have lots of problems with Favre

If the allegations are true coming out of NY, then that needs to be disciplined.

He is nowhere near as good as he was even last year (though I would argue that many of the offensive problems come from personnel issues that are being resolved).

But you clearly have a hard-on for him and the Vikings to the point that you don't even acknowledge that the Jets made your Pats their bitch this year. The Vikings D handled the Jets in a way that the Pats D didn't even come close to. Are the Vikings great? No. As a fan, I'm hoping they pull this season out and there is still time for that to happen. But let's not act like the Jets suck and that the Pats are great. And on a career basis, Brady is not as good a QB as Favre.

[joeybee12]

15. Brady is much better than Bret ever was...

the most over-rated QB in history.

As for the Jets, Let's just wait and see what happens at Foxboro.

Oh, and I hated the Jets as soon as Favor started his little attention-grabbing tantrums and went there. Had nothing againstt he Vikings until they took this schmuck and thought they were somehow going to rule the football world.

[TZ]

16. Was Dan Marino overrated too?

Favre's career stats are better than his. You are less than objective when it comes to Favre. The guys a diva and a jerk but when it comes down to it he's a great QB. He has as many SB victories as Steve Young and more than Dan Fouts.

[joeybee12]

18. Marino doesn't have nearly as many INT as Favor...both gunslingers...

but total yards is not the only thing going into making a great quarterback...they need smarts, too...Favor lacks them both on and OFF the field.

[Goblinmonger]

20. 0.3% is the difference for you in your evaluation?

Marino's INT percentage is 3.0% Favre's is 3.3% THAT'S all you've got?

How about completion %? Marino is 59.4 and Favre is 61.9.
TD %? Both at 5.
Lifetime QB Rating? Both at 86.4.
Win %? Marino 61% Favre 63%

So why is it again that Favre is the "most overrated QB" ever? Because he is at least as good as Marino and probably better once we start getting to passing records. 70000 yards for Christ's sake. 500 TDs. You don't get those numbers if you suck.

(all numbers from http://www.pro-football-reference.com which I have found to be accurate)

[JonLP24]

22. This is a reply to all 3 in this sub-thread

Hard to say Farve is better than Marino because Farve played more games. Longevity counts but in terms of passing numbers I think they are pretty much comparable. To joey-longevity plays a factor when it comes to Farve having more interceptions than anybody. He played more games than any QB(I may be mistaken--but doesn't have as many pass attempts). As you already pointed out they are roughly the same. I'd also add Marino is slightly better at YPA at 7.3 to Farve's 7.1. Farve's 7.1 is very impressive because he maintained a 7 or higher his entire career. Marino is impressive too. For me it is hard to say who is better. I personally think Peyton Manning--barring serious injuries--will come close(hey there is no telling when Brett will retire) to Farve's passing yards and TDs and possibly break them but higher in terms of completion percentage, YPA, and even QB rating.

[TZ]

24. I say better because Favre has won a SB

Which seems to be a category that Joey and many others value..Of course since Mark Rypien and Trent Dilfer also have SB victories that might not be the best stat either.
Edit: I agree that Peyton Manning will probably end up with better statistics but Joey's claim of Favre being terribly ovverated is completely ridiculous. I say that as someone who has never rooted for or agaisnt Favre particularly.

[JonLP24]

31. I agree with you

I was just tackling the issue of longevity which leads to higher career stats but both of those are great QBs. I just disagree about Farve(I'm actually not sure who is better Farve/Marino) having the edge with the SB because didn't win that by himself. That Packers team was great all around. Perhaps if Marino had the same team he may have won the Super Bowl? I'm not sure but SB wins will always count for team stat with me.

[Goblinmonger]

26. I would agree with you.

I think too many people hop on the INT meme when the numbers just don't play him out to be this INT machine (OK, I didn't run a p-score or anything to see if 0.3% is significant, but it just doesn't seem so). When you look at the percentages which minimize longevity, they are virtually similar.

I would put Favre above Marino for the following reasons:
1. I hate Marino (see, I own that up front).
2. Superbowl win
3. More MVPs
4. I hate Marino (I mean I really hate him. In a joey hates Favre way, probably)
5. I think the longevity means something but I realize people hate Favre for that reason (the whole retire/unretire wash-rinse-repeat process).

I didn't know who had the most pass attempts (though Favre has almost 10000) so Wikipedia says Brett has the most attempts and completions (though, again, longevity).

[TZ]

21. Favre has what 3 NFL MVP awards?

I'm sorry---thats NOT a fluke. Those awards pretty much go to someone who really is the best at what they do.

[joeybee12]

27. Those awards are probably the most subjective of all...

they go to the guy the sportswriters have a hard-on for.

[TZ]

29. They had a hard on for Mark Mosely the kicker in 1983?

I actually think they get that vote right more times than not.

[Goblinmonger]

32. I think that's the

"Brady only has 1 MVP Award" talking and not common sense.

[Goblinmonger]

19. I think Marino is overrated.

But I realize I'm in the minority. I will also agree that that opinion is probably because of my hatred of the 'phins while he was there. Interested to see what our Pats fan has to say.

I hate Steve Young, too. Dbag. His lack of ability as an announcer only makes me hate him more.

[PVnRT]

39. Both Marino and Fouts are overrated

[Goblinmonger]

17. The numbers would disagree with you.

My all-time favorite QB would be Tarkenton. But I know that his lack of winning a Bowl keeps him out of the top lists (much like I think it should keep out Marino but I tend to be in the minority on that). Favre is a better QB than Tarkenton for sure. I don't think Brett is the best ever but pretty close.

I wish the Vikings would have had the Jets at home.

[JonLP24]

25. I pretty much agreed with you until this point

(Also Marino being overrated)

I still have the tape of the Packers Super Bowl winning season and that was talented team all around that won the Super Bowl. Farve was great that year but so was the whole team all around. Great defense, great special teams, excellent weapons. My point with that is winning a Super Bowl is a team achievement. I never give sole credit to the QB thus elevating them above other QBs due to lack of championships. Otherwise Trent Dilfer has more of a claim than Dan Marino being among the greats. Marino has it all, nice YPA, pretty good completion percentage, good TD-INT ratio, and the all those long career stats he put up.

[Goblinmonger]

28. I don't have problems with your position on that.

That was a great team. They were a great team the next year but, imho, they let their egos get in the way and Denver just played it smart by staying under the radar and let the Packers think they had it in the bag.

Dilfer is the clear counter-argument. He is certainly the worst QB to win a SB.

But I differ slightly in my analysis because we are talking QB. That person led that team to the win (certainly we can make similar arguments for the D leaders in many, many instances). So I would put the QB on a slightly different level than saying someone is a better receiver because they won the SB which isn't as much about their leadership.

[JonLP24]

34. Denver is my favorite AFC team

so I was happy to see Denver win that one and the next one. To tell you the truth. I was dying for a Minnesota/Denver Super Bowl (Arizona actually made the playoffs that year) the entire season (I wasn't expecting the Cardinals because there were never in the playoffs in my lifetime at that point) that year Atlanta made it.

I think Denver is another good example. While John Elway is a great QB, they had an excellent running game with Terrell Davis with arguably the best O-line that year with Rod Smith, McAffery, and Shannon Sharpe as weapons to throw to. The defense was great, especially Steve Atwater. Romanowski(had a very big year that year), and the big free agent signing before that season was the longtime Chief, Neil Smith to go along with Trevor Pryce and Keith Traylor. I can't emphasize enough how much that crew disrupted backfields and got the QB.

I see what you're saying and makes sense why people rarely if ever bring up SB wins when it comes to comparing players of skill positions.

[PVnRT]

40. Which numbers? The volume stats?

How about we look at career quarterback efficiency?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

1. Steve Young 96.8
2. Philip Rivers 96.7
3. Aaron Rodgers 96.4
4. Peyton Manning 95.4
5. Tony Romo 95.3
6. Tom Brady 93.8
7. Kurt Warner 93.7
8. Joe Montana 92.3
9. Drew Brees 92.1
10. Ben Roethlisberger 91.7

...

17. Brett Favre 86.4

Where he's tied, by the way, with Marino and Donovan McNabb, behind Daunte Culpepper and Jeff Garcia. Granted, the dead-ball era hurts a lot of quarterbacks, but the fact that so many of Favre's contemporaries are on that list ahead of him ought to say something.

[TZ]

42. You really want me to take a list that has TONY ROMO on it seriously?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA....:rofl:

[JonLP24]

46. You should

Lifetime 8.1 YPA which is phenomenal. Great completion percentage, 3,000+ passing yard seasons in every full season he has played. Pretty good TD-INT ratio. The team with him under center has few problems moving the ball down field.

[TZ]

49. Yeah but that proves that stats are ultimately meaningless without context

Romo is one of the WORST QB's around when it comes to winning close games..Whatever people say about Favre, he has a real track record of coming back for last minute wins ..Romo..not so much...

[JonLP24]

51. winning or losing close games

require context too. I mean was there cases the defense that failed to hold the other team's offense from driving down field and making the winning score? I'm sure you could find examples of Romo failing late in the 4th quarter but you can with any QB. You can probably also find examples of him making plays. I remember the last the Cardinals played the Cowboys, Romo threw a late 4th quarter long touchdown pass to Marion Barber to tie the game. In overtime the Cardinals blocked a punt and returned it for the winning touchdown. That close loss wasn't very much his fault.

Either way, it would very difficult to challenge the assertion that he is one of the worst QBs in close games because it would take extensive statistical research and compare game time situations with every QB I can think of.

Also when it comes to Romo/Farve it is too earlier in his career to make those comparisons because Farve has so many years and successful seasons that at this point Farve has had a better career than Tony Romo.

[TZ]

52. The Cowboys have won ONE playoff game in what ten years?

And you don't think bad QB play has something to do with it? Although one year it had to do with a bad hold by Mr. Romo on a field goal kick attempt. Romo is NOT a good pressure player. I watch that team on a pretty regular basis and I can tell you stats or no, he's not good under pressure. In fact, I think he is much much more likely to throw a costly INT than Favre (look at the Titans game just from last Sunday!)

[JonLP24]

53. Well

he's only had a little over 4 seasons of significant playing time so I wouldn't hold the 10 years too much against him. I didn't see the Titans game but I recall he had over 400 yards passing (8.83 YPA) and Miles Austin is so far the best fantasy player I have and I also have Fitzgerald. :) I do note the 3 interceptions which is same amount of interceptions Drew Brees threw last Sunday so it happens. Let me say this, at this point Drew Brees and Brett Farve are better than Tony Romo. However Farve is having a very average season this year.

[HuckleB]

55. At Romo's age, Favre had already won his three MVPs, a Super Bowl, ...

... had passed for almost 31,000 yards, and 207 touchdowns.

Beyond the stats, I'll go subjective and argue that Favre often made a very mediocre Green Bay team competitive. Romo does not lift the Cowboys that way. He has to be surrounded by quality to perform. So do most, but there is no way to put Romo in the category of top flight QBs, at this point in time.

[JonLP24]

56. I wasn't comparing the two

I was defending Romo who even without using QB rating (which I rarely use) he has very impressive passing numbers. The 8.1 lifetime YPA is very hard to pull off and not often see QBs that high. He really hasn't had a bad statistical season so it is unclear if needs to be surrounded by quality to perform when he is performing. In 4 seasons, the Cowboys have had a very good regular season record. I know playoffs but that is a different animal and only 1 team each years makes it all the way through. Romo was un-drafted and didn't see any playing time early in his career so he didn't play as many seasons as Farve so he won't have the passing yards or TDs Farve had despite being the same age as Farve at that point. I'm not saying Farve is better because of any of that, just providing context to why Farve did as much by the time he reached that age and Romo didn't. I say he his top 10 of the QBs there are. I'll put him over Farve this season if Farve continues to play average but not over him meaning he's had a better career than Farve or anything like that.

[HuckleB]

57. He's also not likely to last as long as Favre.

As for YPA, I'm not so sure it means that much. It may simply be an artifact of the type of offensive plays that are run etc... It's one statistic. That's not much to hang one's hat on...

[JonLP24]

58. I think it actually means something

as opposed to passer rating. It might be better to use the adjusted version to account for sacks but that may affect QBs with very poor O-lines. Plus I like to keep things simple. You'll see consistent good QBs get 7 or higher. Someone could have a lot of yards in a season but due to a large number of pass attempts. Someone with a high YPA will have a lot of yards and likely a lot of TDs. Any QB you think is among the best likely regularly get 7s or higher. Farve is lifetime 7.1 which is pretty impressive considering the long career he has maintained that number or higher. What I'm getting at is in 4 season Romo has scored over 8 3 out of 4 years. That is very good. Brees had over 8 last year too. Right now Philip Rivers is tops in YPA at 9.61. Can you not tell me as a QB he is not having one of the best seasons? That is 1,759 yards, tops in the league. 62.8% completion, 11 TDs-4 INTs. The worst in YPA with at least 100 pass attempts is Derek Anderson at 5.70(QB needs to be 6.8+ for the team to be successful) which translates to 51.8%, 670 yds, 3 TDs-5 Ints. I think for this year YPA is making a good case for who is having the best and worst season at QB so far. Romo's YPA also translates to high number of passing yards in a season, great completion percentage, and pretty good TD-INT ratio.

[HuckleB]

59. Looking at the list of YPA all time, I don't buy that it has some great meaning.

The top guys played in an age where they didn't throw that often, so it makes sense that their YPAs are high. Second, in various eras and team strategies, the short throw basically acted as part of the running game for some teams. It doesn't make sense to say the QBs on such teams are lesser because of that strategy. Other teams have had great running games, in eras where the teams ran often and threw long when they through. Does that mean those QBs are better? I'm not of that opinion.

[JonLP24]

60. I know the guy tops on the list

is in the hall of fame. So are the others I believe from similar areas. I do agree the styles were different but it still in a way shows you how the best QBs that year or era. I clicked on the year he had the highest, over 10 and the Browns won the championship that year. Anyways I agree they play a little different now. In the modern area it covers all the throws, short and long so I think it is a good indicator. As far as QBs/teams that use a pass to the running back to replace/act in part the running game would hurt the QB in every category except completion percentage. Warner was a big check down guy and virtually didn't have a running game in '07 and he still got over 7s. I follow the stat (as well as yards,%,TD-INT) every week and every year and it's no coincidence to me the best playing QBs are over 7. It is no surprise to me to see Manning and Brady over 7 again this year. It is not the only number I use but it is the main one and they often translate to positive numbers across the board if it is high. The negative is it doesn't take into account interceptions which the adjusted version does I think. Anyways I think I said all I probably could say on the subject.

[Goblinmonger]

44. Culpepper? That's all you have to know about that list.

Randy Moss made Culpepper look like a professional QB.

[HuckleB]

54. That list ought to make a lot of people wonder about NFL Passer Ratings.

Tony Romo at 5? :rofl:
Aaron Rodgers has been great, but he's only started a couple years.
Philip Rivers is good, but he's number 2?
Matt Schaub, Chad Pennington, Carson Palmer are all above Favre?

And that doesn't even address the guys who were incredibly effective, but are much farther down the list.

[Goblinmonger]

8. Oh, I was pissed to have stayed up to 11:30 for that end

but that was more about the defense of the Jets (which are my AFC team so that made the game a little more weird) than about Favre. If they had figured out the Jets D in the first half like they did the second half, they wouldn't have had to force the ball at the end.

All things being equal, I'm not sure T-Jack would have put the Vikes in a better position.

[PVnRT]

6. No, Favre throws pick-sixes when the game is on the line

[Goblinmonger]

9. Yep, he pulled a Rodgers last night, that's for sure.

Good news is that it looks like you won't have to worry about Rodgers doing that this weekend because you get to see the quarterbacking genius of Matt Flynn. :rofl:

[PVnRT]

12. Apparently you don't understand the difference between

throwing an interception and throwing an interception that's returned for a touchdown. It's OK, though, I don't expect a high level of intelligence from Vikings fans.

[Goblinmonger]

14. The TD was irrelevant.

Clearly a Packers fan would not be able to think that far ahead, but at the time the INT was made, the game was over. The fact it was a Pick 6 made it no more of a choke than Rodgers' pick on Sunday. Rodgers lost the game with the INT. Rationalize it all you want (like I'm sure you did when Favre wore green and gold).

[PVnRT]

41. No, the Packer fans at the bar I was at pretty much left in disgust at that point

Kind of like we did every time Favre choked out a late-game suicide-by-interception.

Face it, had he retired in Green Bay, you'd hate him. Suddenly, though, he plays for your team, so he's OMG AWESOME.

[Goblinmonger]

43. I know you don't know me from Adam, but I liked Favre

when he was on the Packers.

I moved from ND to Wisconsin (about 45 miles south of GB). Though I never really became a Packers "fan" I was happy they won the SB and thought, even then, that Favre was what was good about football. Amidst showboating, he really seemed to love the game and played with his heart. Hated when he played the Vikings, but I liked him. Guess you'll have to take my word at that.

[HuckleB]

48. +1 And LOL! -eom-

[HuckleB]

23. +1

[Goblinmonger]

30. How is the fact it was a pick six relevant?

The INT was the game ender.

[HuckleB]

33. Who cares?

The odds that Favre will throw a game ending interception are far greater than the odds that Rodgers will.

Every quarterback will do it once in a while.

I know that's too complicated for you, but duh.

[Goblinmonger]

35. By maybe 1%.

Of course those numbers aren't on game ending interceptions but interceptions as a whole over their careers.

[HuckleB]

36. Aren't statistics fun!?

If you're using the interception percentage stat, yeah, "it's only one percent," which basically translates to "for every three interceptions Favre throws, Rodgers throws two."

Over the course of the season, or a career, that's a big difference.

[Goblinmonger]

37. That's not that big of a difference

For every 100 pass attempts made, Favre throws 3 and Rodgers throws 2. Yes, it's a difference. Rodgers has a lower percentage. But we'll see what the percentage is as Rodgers has more than 2 years under his belt. How many games does Favre win at the end when they probably "shouldn't" with his passing compared to Rodgers? I think Rodgers falls short in that one, too.

[HuckleB]

47. That's a huge difference.

That costs games, and there aren't that many games to begin with...

[brendan120678]

38. The return for the TD...

helped the Jets cover the spread.

That's why it was important to me!
Otherwise I'd be out $50.

[Goblinmonger]

45. I imagine there are many people angry about that n/t

[joeybee12]

50. Oh helll..this post will get this thread to flame!

But you gotta do what ya gotta do!