A question for atheists

[TallahasseeGrannie]

and almost atheists and sometimes atheists, particularly those who used to be believers and grew up in a church.

When you go to church for, say, a wedding, funeral or some other service you have to attend for family reasons, are you ever "moved" (not persuaded..I'm talking emotion) by the familiar words or music? Or are you angered or annoyed by it? Or somewhere in between? Do you, for example, listen to hymns, Christmas carols or sacred music? Is it a totally secular experience now?

I am very aware there will be multiple answers on this. But I'm very curious how the culture of faith...the music, words, etc., affect the life of a non believer.

I got to thinking about this when I read on here about atheists who attend the Unitarian Church, and I wondered whether it was to satisfy that cultural need.

Your thoughts?

[ScreamingMeemie]

1. Interesting question.

I am not an atheist and was raised in the Catholic Church. In my adulthood I have become apathetic when it comes to the Catholic church. I cannot reconcile too many opposite ideals between me and the faith. But, when I go to mass (usually something to do with my daughter's school) I still find comfort in the tradition of it all. My soul is not lifted, but my mind is comforted.

[pecwae]

2. My husband is atheist

but will attend church, any denomination, for the social interaction. At least, that's what he says. He grew up Presbyterian, attended services and SS regularly. I attribute his sporadic church attendance a habit formed over many years.

[chelsea0011]

3. Hardcore atheist here. I like Xmas carols, and when I attend

any type of church service I even go through the motionswith blessing myself or reciting some prayers. As a guest to these events, I behave like a guest. Nothing angers me but sometimes I do feel like a square peg in a round hole at times.

[notadmblnd]

4. To me, it depends on the church

The bigger they are, the more angry I become. The church I was raised in had about eight pews and was for the most part a humble congregation. The thing I've noticed in these mega churches is that they come off as shallow and pretentious to me. Women in evening gowns greeting parishoners at the door. Designer suits for the minister, grand chandaliers hanging above the alter, parking lot full of Cadillac, Lexus and Audis. This shows me that they don't follow Jesus teachings and that they are in the God business not to help lost souls, but to make money and enrich their pockets.

[Ravenseye]

5. No, no, no, yes, yes

I consider myself more of a nontheistic agnostic, rather than an outright atheist. I'd rather take the position I feel more scientific that while there is no evidence of God at the present time that I feel estabilishes God as true, that doesn't necessarily mean that there is no God. Just to lay out where I stand first.

I'm never moved by any familiar words or music. I may be moved at a wedding or funeral but it's because of what's going on not the religiosity of the moment. Athletic churches like Catholism, and Islam particularly annoy me, because I find hour long ceremonies irritating. The music to me mostly sounds poorly written and does nothing for me.

At Christmas time, we have a tree, and stockings, and Santa Claus and play Christmas music. We dont' have a manager or anything outright religious, but some of the carols on the CD's have a religious basis, and I sing them, but they hold no 'meaning', any more than a song about Hercules would. They're just stories and myths to learn from to me. Nothing to be avoided, but nothing to put up on a pedestal either.

As far as the Unitarian Church, I've been a few times, but it's a bit too....I don't know. It's like listening to NPR with a group of 50 year old hippies playing tamboreens, followed by a half hour of red tape and a corporate meeting. Not my bag. Yet I know people who go because of community. Heck I know people who belong to a Christian church because of the community. Ski trips, and activiy groups, and whatnot. Same thing for people in the Unitarian Church. I know alot of people miss that sort of community group feeling of being a part of like minded individuals. So yeah I'd say it was a cultural need. Personally, I don't need that either. It'd be nice, but not if I have to be bored to tears for an hour a week.

[kwassa]

16. having grown up as a Unitarian ....

Your description made me laugh. My feeling about it, too.

"It's like listening to NPR with a group of 50 year old hippies playing tamboreens, followed by a half hour of red tape and a corporate meeting. Not my bag....I know alot of people miss that sort of community group feeling of being a part of like minded individuals. So yeah I'd say it was a cultural need. Personally, I don't need that either. It'd be nice, but not if I have to be bored to tears for an hour a week."

To me and my way of thinking, it is not a church but a secular humanist or ethical society, which is fine if that is what you want. My experience is that the G-word is never mentioned, which is really the basis for any church, IMHO. The Unitarian church really is a cultural need more than spiritual need, as there is not a common spiritual purpose there, and virtually no spiritual discussion. Just my experience, in multiple churches.

[Ravenseye]

17. I've been to a few

It definately differs church to church. One I went to definately delved into more spirtual stuff, all across the spectrum. From Christianity to Tibbetan Buddhism. Generally though I agree in that it is usualy more a secular humanist society...Just a really boring one, at least to me. ;)

[kwassa]

21. Not my thing, either.

I like more church in church.

[Zhade]

31. Your first paragraph describes atheism.

Strong atheists are the only kind of atheists who don't fit your description.

It looks to me like you're an agnostic atheist - which is what I am.

[Christa]

6. I am never moved

at times I find it hard to swallow, as I feel so digusted by the farce of it all.

[Dhalgren]

7. I was raised a Southern Baptist (it's ok, I'm better, now).

Whenever I am at a church service I view it anthropologically. The fulfillment of the created needs that these services fill in the lives of church members is facinating...

[liberalmuse]

8. Not from the churches I was raised in...

I was raised as Mormon (mom joined when I was 3), and became a born-again Christian as a teenager. I felt guilty when the Mormon hymns would play because I could not stop myself from yawning throughout the songs, which were long, drawn out, and backed up by a droning organ. The Mormon church probably has the most mind-numbingly boring church services (and funerals) I've ever been to. The born again Christian songs were simple, mindless ditties that held little meaning (IMO, that is).

Ave Maria does have meaning for me as a celebration of the feminine within a patriarchal institution that has held power much too long. I love this song and any version will give me chills.

[IntravenousDemilo]

9. I'm from a mixed marriage (i.e., my father atheist, my mother agnostic)

and the atheism/agnosticism goes back at least to my grandparents on both sides. But I still sing at Emmanuel Howard Park United Church down the street. I have neither truck nor trade with divinity of any sort, and going there as an unbeliever just to take part in the services would be hypocritical, but I have a perfectly non-hypocritical, justifiable reason for going: I get paid professionally for the singing. It's a gig. I even solo during the offertory once a month. And yes, I am moved by the music, but then, I'm a musician and there'd be something very wrong if I weren't.

On the other hand, it's also probably the most progressive, left-wing church in Canada, ministering to the poor, to the homeless, to transgendered people, and to socialists who believe in the Methodist social gospel -- basically what rich conservatives would consider the freaks and cast-offs of society -- as well as to ordinary middle-class folks with a decided leftie outlook. The outgoing minister, Dr Cheri DiNovo, was the first minister to solemnize a lesbian wedding in this country, had a show on university radio called "The Radical Reverend", ran in a provincial byelection this month under the New Democratic Party banner, and won handily, so now she's our new Member of the Provincial Parliament. So there is a definite religious left in Canada that influences politics to a profound extent.

[Epiphany4z]

10. I still like

xmas carols and some religious music. I don't know that I would say it moves me..more its like a comfort food...you know something I grew up with that was usually tied to happy memories.

Whenever I have had a reason to be in church...wedding funeral...whatever..I am quite respectful bow my head and reflect one the persons life or whatever reason I am there for .you could not pick me out as a non believer.

[elocs]

11. I can be moved...

I may be more of a deist than an atheist, but it's a close call. It does depend on the church and on its size and beliefs. I was raised a Christian and also have read the entire Bible and understand it. The life of Jesus and his teaching are inspiring and so few Christians live their lives with Jesus as their example. There are Christmas songs, such as "Away in a Manger" that will move me to tears because they remind me of a simple relationship and closeness which I felt with Jesus when I was a little boy, before it was corrupted by theology. So I can be moved in a church, but I suppose it would be different for somebody who always has been an atheist.

[Wilber_Stool]

12. I still like a good

Latin mass in a nice church.

[mcscajun]

13. I only enter churches for ceremonies for people close to me

like weddings or funerals; I don't attend baptisms or confirmations. I also visit important cathedrals when traveling, for their architectural interest. I am not a member of any congregation whatsoever; I left the Roman Catholic Church decades ago.

I am never "moved" by the services; they are something to be endured for the sake of those I love. I still listen to Christmas Carols because I grew up on them, but not sacred music. I prefer the secular Christmas songs, in any case; hell, even the novelty songs. :) So, yes, the music becomes part of the secular experience.

[twilight_sailing]

14. I still like those songs.

I'm not "moved" by the lyrics nor am I annoyed.


"Is it a totally secular experience now?"

Secular wouldn't be the word I would choose to describe it. Christianity is pervasive in our culture. I am still part of the culture even though I no longer subscribe to Christianity.

Thanks for asking.

[Finder]

15. I do find it moving...

and participate fully in the Catholic Mass.(except for receiving communion) I also socialize with a few priests, deacons and nuns.(most are deists at best actually)

I also enjoy UU services but do not get to them often enough. They have some wonderful guest speakers.

I even study with Jehovah Witnesses occasionally. I have for years.

The only services I cannot stomach (and my children refuse to attend)are the fundamentalist ones...the clergy lack an understanding of theology, hold degrees from diploma mills and the sermons are all about fear and guilt. The followers are downright scary with the speaking in tongues and all. One of my sons calls it the "chicken dance church."lol


Most of the freethinkers in my community are ironically religious leaders.lol

[trotsky]

18. Actually, I'm surprised at how unmoved I am.

Took my kids to a Christmas Eve service a couple of years ago, and it had been several years since I had been in a church for any type of worship service (just my grandfather's funeral). So it was kind of odd that as hymns were being sung, liturgy recited, etc., that I felt... absolutely nothing.

Oh I still enjoy a lot of Christmas music, but hymns I never really cared for to begin with.

I do have an atheist friend who sings in a church choir, though. She really likes the music, though it obviously does nothing for her from a religious standpoint!

[Evoman]

19. No, it doesn't move me at all.

In my opinion, there are only 2 things that I find AT ALL redeeming about a visit to church. The first, in some cases, is the architecture. The last wedding I went to was done in an old church, so I sat looking at the wall and gargoyles and angels on the wall more than at the actual ceremony. The second is the sociological aspect....church is a great place to go for the people watching.

To be completely honest with you, I become completely detached at church. I absolutely detest ceremonies of any type...funerals and weddings included. I know they are supposed to have meaning, but I'm just completely bored at them. I've been to two funerals this year...one of them for someone I cared about extremely. In both cases, I felt like they did me more "spiritual" harm than good. I hate funerals, and I honestly can't began to comprehend why other people feel they are so important. I could do without, thank you very much. I came to grips with my cousins death on my own, and with the help of my family. I just felt like the funeral was this stupid farce...meant to jerk as much tears out of you as possible, but not doing anything positive...like a sad chick flick. It didn't help that my cousin was agnostic (borderline atheist) and the ceremony was so fucking religious.

As to your regular church services. I find them stupid. I went to an Anglican church for awhile, because my girlfriend is anglican, and I wanted to experience her faith (what can I say, I'm crazy about her). I found the "zombie-ness" of it scary...when the whole church recites certain parts, out of memory, I probably paled. It just felt like something you might see in a movie with hypnotized people. I found the music dumb...the organ/piano music sounded okay, but most times the music sounds like bad poetry that people are trying to fit with the piano. Sufficed to say, going to church didn't last very long. For either of us. Church bores my gf, and shes kinda been turning agnostic on me...shes a scientist and obviously can't reconcile some of the things she knows, and the christian god. They are basically irreconcilable.

[Zhade]

32. Sorry about your loss, my friend.

:hug:

Couldn't even begin to explain how angry I'd be in your place. I'm leaving strict instructions that my death NOT be commemorated in any way via anything religious.

[hunter]

33. Funerals that do not respect the spiritual beliefs of the dead...

...are loathsome. Nothing quite like being buried by people who are certain you are going to hell. (An opposite case, a religious person buried by atheists is probably much rarer, and almost certainly less toxic.)

This is yet another good reason to support gay marriage. That way a person's life partner can't be overruled by whack-job-anti-gay family (especially parents) who sometimes pull out all the stops an extreme last ditch effort to "save" the dead person's soul, sometimes even by excluding the dead person's life partner and friends.

The best funerals you can go to turn out to be happy celebrations of a person's life.

[Evoman]

34. I was admittedly a little upset about the funeral, but...

funerals are not about the dead. They are about the living. As an atheist, I don't give a fucking shit WHAT they want to do at my funeral. If Jeebus makes people feel better, then so be it, give me a christian funeral.

In the case of my cousin, her husband was a christian. The poor guy...I couldn't ever get really angry at the funeral. I could not ever prevent him from having a christian funeral, if it was any comfort at all to him. I was close to her, yes. We've played together since we were babies, and we went to university together..graduated together. But my Aunt and my cousins Husband...I didn't feel a fraction of their pain. How can you deny them the comfort?

[hunter]

36. If your cousin was agnostic, how were they celebrating her life?

How were they remembering her? My own extended family is pretty ferocious about respecting the beliefs of the deceased. Part of it is a tradition of very rational humanism, but I also think some of it goes way, way back... the superstition that you don't want any unhappy ghosts hanging about. Better give grandma what she wants or her ghost might throw your sorry ass down the cellar stairs.

Even for the very religious the carrying-on and celebration of the wake is not intermingled with the structure of the Mass or other religious service.

[Evoman]

37. Honestly, I hated the funeral

The preacher actually went on and on about jesus. He even talked about atheism *puke*. It was a depressing, sad, mourning. I don't understand funerals AT ALL. Why the fuck do people need so much damn closure and shit like that. I'm clueless. I'm absolutely content acknowledging my sadness, spending time with my family, and then going on with my life. They kept playing sad music...it was designed to make you weep and wail. Why, oh why, would anybody want to make themselves feel worse? And they played Amazing Grace *double puke*.

I hate funerals period....and not just because a loved one died. They are unnecessary and I just feel like they do my psyche more harm than good.

However, I still think that if the funeral is what it takes for her husband to feel at peace or whatever, then its fine. I just wish it wasn't socially unacceptable, being as close as I was to her, to completely miss out on the funeral.

[hunter]

38. It sounds so grim...

... but I think you shouldn't generalize from your own family experience.

You say, "funerals are not about the dead. They are about the living," which is true, but that argument mustn't be used by anyone to monopolize another person's expression of grief. At a wake, anything can happen.

I think I'm lucky. My family and my wife's family have a macabre streak in us that makes us very open to discussions about death. (Is it an Irish thing? I don't know.) People in both our families will joke around saying things like "When I'm dead..." followed by some very explicit instruction on how certain things should be handled. It's just sort of natural to seek advocates in the case of one's own death. My wife and I first had one of these discussions very early in our relationship. Later on, when they made us discuss this topic in Engagement Encounter (EE is a requirement of our church) we really didn't have anything more to discuss, and it was sort of funny because everyone was so damned somber and we were being utterly silly and madly in love. People kept looking at us nervously, like "uh, oh, that marriage is doomed because they won't discuss this," when in fact we had explored the issue on our own in very explicit detail.

Funerals in my family tend to be quirky. My grandmother is buried in a plain wooden box. Her instructions were astonishingly Jewish, which made everyone scratch their heads and go "hmmmmmmmm... could that be why her family so adamantly resisted the Mormons? Maybe they were some kind of Lewis and Clark frontier Jews??? That would explain a lot..."

The last funeral I attended was for a very elderly relative who had always insisted she have a non-religious funeral. She wasn't an atheist, but a very strong agnostic. She and God had some ISSUES and I think she wanted to keep those between her and God, and not have any Reverend stranger usurping this as they were putting her body in the ground. There was no way she was going to "rest in peace" until she'd taken her arguments up to the Head Office, come heaven or hell. The service made some religious people attending uncomfortable, but it was very true to her memory. Anything else would have been starkly inappropriate and hypocritical.

I think if I was an atheist I'd be very concerned about this. I wouldn't want anyone whose motives I didn't trust injecting some false sort of spirituality into people's memories of me.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

45. Evo

I have a different take on funerals. First, I was raised by British wolves. No, wait a minute. Just a British father. But he was as repressed an individual as you'd ever want to meet (and a well-known chemist) but yet very loving. We just never hugged or talked about anything important. But we had a code. Like I might say "I think I'll go take a warm bath" which could mean anything from "I have cramps from hell" or "You have pissed me off so much I want to be alone" or even "I'm dirty." We were great at it. I am a person who rarely cries. I simply can't do it. Lost both my parent dry-eyed. But music releases that. At the churches where their respective funerals were held, I heard the hymns and the tears flowed and it was like a dam breaking and one that needed to be broken. So there is that.

Now, as far as the funeral, itself, personally I needed to see my parents dead. They had both looked very awful when they died and I was with them, in both cases for a couple hours afterwards (during which they looked worse and worse). When I saw them in the funeral home where they had been embalmed by a very good funeral director (not overdone) it was a huge relief to me because while some folks say "I want to remember them alive" all I could remember was how they looked freshly dead, and that is not for the weak-hearted. My dad, especially, who had dementia, looked for the first time in 10 years like he had his dignity back. It was a physical relief when I saw him.

Contrast that experience to my mother in law, who died of lymphoma at 65 and her very tidy German husband had her cremated while we were on the road trying to get there, and the bed thrown away, and the room scrubbed. To this day, all of us in my family (my husband and my kids) dream that she is still alive and comes back. There truly was no closure...it was unreal. We can't figure out where she went.

So to me, funeral practices have merit.

[hunter]

47. One of my grandfathers wanted the "tidy" exit of your mother-in-law.

Old age had not been kind to him -- he very much wanted to be remembered as the handsome military officer and spacecraft engineer. I think a lot of the closure and acceptance happened while he was still hanging onto life, blind, almost deaf, but with a sometimes formidable fraction of his mental capacity fleetingly intact. My wife and I had a pretty good time with him shortly before he died, while we were giving my parents one week respite caring for him. It was one of those things you utterly dread going into, but you end up being thankful you could do it.

My grandfather got his tidy exit, no fancy funerals or memorials, and a quiet place for his ashes to rest. Of all my grandparents, I think his passing has the most closure with me.

[Evoman]

49. Everybody is different.

I'm glad that funerals give you closure. Some of my family was the same way...they needed to see her, they needed to have a ceremony. But funerals just seem...I don't know...TOO BIG. Ceremony, expensive casket, flowers, etc. I like how they did it in the old days...look at body, quick word, bury. I don't get why people have to make these things long and dreary. They played amazing grace, and You Give Me Wings, for gods sakes. What the hell is the purpose of that but to make you feel worse?

The only semi-touching part of the funeral is when my dad and his Latin American Folk group played a song or two. My cousin loved that music..it is part of our culture. And it wasn't depressing.

Maybe I'm just a freak. I don't know. Weddings don't touch me either. Ceremonies and traditions mean close to nothing to me. The only thing that really touches my cold atheist heart is family, friends, and good food.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

50. Yes, we are all different

Thank God. Or the universe. Or whomever.

[Bill McBlueState]

20. communion

Open communion as practiced in some of the Protestant churches can have meaning from a humanist point of view. In open communion, anyone can participate whether or not they're a member of that church or any church. In the United Methodist church, in which I grew up, the language of the communion service (while it still quotes the traditional Bible verses) makes it relatively easy for one to discard the usual cannibalistic undertones and instead interpret communion as the symbolic sharing of a simple meal.

From a secular humanist point of view, one could use the ritual to teach that we can only achieve unity when our basic needs are met, and that we can accomplish that by eating simple foods and distributing them equally. I remember that when we passed the elements through the pews, there was emphasis on serving the elements to one another, which is also important from a humanist perspective.

[neebob]

22. I haven't set foot in a church since at least 1980

and the intervening years have successfully weaseled out of any event that would have required me to do so. The only religious event I've attended was my dad's graveside service, which felt incredibly weird and no, I was not moved.

[muriel_volestrangler]

23. I feel a bit of nostalgia singing some hymns, especially carols

but I think it's not that different from the pleasure you can get from a familiar piece of secular music, though you do get to sing along (without looking silly). I grew up regularly singing hymns at school, and I think it's getting memories of all that that I feel. As far as spoken words, or the words of hymns go, they don't really mean much to me (with the possible exception of the beginning of John's Gospel - a fine bit of poetry, especially in the KJV words). I tend to think about how the other people are feeling, rather than it moving me in any way.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

24. Sure.

But weddings and funerals are moving in themselves, and it has nothing to do with religion.

The most moving wedding I've ever attended was in a courthouse.

[Random_Australian]

25. Aha, good question TG. :) I like to hear sermons, they interest me.

Mind you, I am listening to a lot more of the various subtexts, and gauging reactions and whatnot a lot more than most - exactly how people come to and keep believing this stuff, and the effect it has on their lives, is fascinating.

As for music... I rather like it in church, but I really, really love it when I'm listening to things like "The hallelujah chorus" (My all-time favourite song) and "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" and others.... well. except for that RW jerk-a-thon "My Lord is a Lord of War" or whatever. Also written by Wal George Frederick Handel, (who wrote the first two) more's the pity.

[Book Lover]

26. Yes, totally secular now

I grew up as very religious Roman Catholic, but when I attend a wedding or funeral Mass now, I am no longer moved as I once was. Nor do I feel this to be a loss.

[greendog]

27. Going to mass is kind of like riding a train...

...I just patiently wait for it to roll into the station so I can step off and back into the real world. It doesn't bother me one way or the other.

On the other hand, I'm a big fan of Bluegrass Music and Gospel Music is part of the Bluegrass repertoire. I love it! Just don't play it more than twice in a set.

If you're going to sing about murder, bad men, pretty women, prison ,love, dust bowl farming, heartbreak, drinking, and trains you might as well throw in a little superstition. Also, bluegrass gospel usually involves tight vocal harmonies and a slower tempo so it's a nice break from the hard charging high lonesome sound that defines the bulk of the genre.

I particularly like the songs "Angel Band" and "Working on a Building" but I don't find them any more "moving" than "What Made Milwaukee Famous" or "Hit Parade of Love".

[PinkUnicorn]

28. No moves

Well I only even go near a church for the big three (born, married, death) of a close relative - and sometimes not even then so the most recent analysis comes from about 3 years ago (a wedding).

The liturgies etc bore me to tears - its very similar to University where you get a professor droning on in a monotone and you do things like count the brick on the wall to pass the time. No anger of annoyance but just crushing boredom. The singing and songs also just fade - sort of like a radio playing in the background because my mind is elsewhere counting bricks or or mentally undressing the choir girls (yes, I'm evil :evilgrin: ).

However there is some music of a religious nature I do like - I have a slight like for certain Gregorian chants (not because I understand the words, but more the cadence and intonation), some Muslim music, some of the Native American medicine dances, and specific organ music (for example I can't stand "here come the bride", but love the "death march").

As for carols - well after being submitted to the grating and screeching of mall carols I am afraid that even an organ version accompanied by Gregorian monks chanting "Silent Night", I would go ballistic.

[moobu2]

29. The best way I can explain it is,

I celebrate Christmas with a decorated tree and presents and everything. I get together with family and friends and it can be quite moving and fulfilling and so forth (most of the time), but I still don’t actually believe Santa Clause will sneak in through my chimney on Christmas eve and leave me a bunch of presents his elves made.

It’s the same with Easter and Halloween. I don’t believe in witches and Easter Bunny’s but I still participate in the fun.

Going to Church is the exact same for me. Although I haven’t been in years, I can enjoy it occasionally.

It has to do with cultural identity, Just like Easter, Christmas and Halloween etc...

[Zhade]

30. It's an interesting question.

I'm thinking of attending a UU church, in fact, strictly for the chance to sing with a choir.

I've discovered over the past couple of years that I really, really love music, and singing especially. As I've been cast in a musical (years ago, long before I gained the self-confidence I have these days), I know my voice isn't the worst on the planet. And Harmonix's Karaoke Hero series for the Playstation 2 (which judges your ability on the fly and of which I own three of the five games) has helped me practice - so take that, all those people who think video games do no good! :D (They helped my self-esteem tremendously, but that's another thread).

To me, singing is a form of creation, which explains why I love it so much, and it's the closest thing this atheist will come to spirituality. As a result, I really want to go sing with people, in this case a choir, to both better my skills and share the joy of music with like-minded people.

Of course, most of those people will not be like-minded in one regard: they're believers. Oh, it's an affirming - pro-GLBT - church, very liberal, etc, but believers are probably the majority of its members.

I doubt I'll feel unwelcome, quite the opposite, yet I wonder how I will feel should the conversation turn toward more supernatural unquantifiable ideas. Will I be annoyed at the magical thinking that may pop up? Will I feel tempted to point out the fact that their beliefs have no supporting evidence?

I seriously doubt it, because my secondary goal of attending is to better understand and work with believers while remaining unashamed of my natural inclination not to believe in things for which there is no corroborating evidence. I don't *want* to be a jerk by pointing out flaws in their logic. That's not my goal.

But will I feel the impulse to do so? Part of me worries that it might; the larger part realizes that I'm friends with a few believers and have no problem with them, even when I have to correct their assertions that "the bible is solid history" or "every scholar knows Jesus existed" after they've started the conversation on religion.

I guess, in my case, I might be better able to answer your question after I've gone to my first UU gathering!

[kwassa]

43. In a UU church ....

believers are generally the pagans. Plenty of atheists and agnostics. I doubt you will get any of the Jesus stuff. God is, or was, not discussed, at least when I grew up in the church.

My parents have been in a Unitarian church choir for over 40 years, and have no belief whatsoever, so you will have no problem.

On the other hand, music is the highest form of prayer, to me ...

[TallahasseeGrannie]

46. Gosh, they sound like the Episcopal church

where I grew up. We mentioned God because it was in the script, but outside of church, it simply wasn't done.

Although when sorely pressed my father used to say "God damn it."

[Zhade]

57. As I said, music (and other creative work)...

...is the closest I get to spirituality.

The "god" thing is annoying, but easily dismissed in a non-evangelical environment. It might serve me well to interact with believers in such a place.

(I think this is about the nicest exchange we've ever had. So from now on, we can only speak of music to each other!)

[vi5]

55. Are you talking about unitarian universalism?

If you are and are hesitant, this atheist right here is telling you don't be. There are 2 threads on here that I started about being an atheist who was looking for some kind of spiritual community if only to fulfill a promise I made to the other people of faith in my life. I was directed to the UU's and today marked the second week of my attendance at their service. The references to god were minimal to nonexistent. The talk of love and peace and humanity and kindness was plentiful. I met believers, I met other atheists, I met agnostics, I met those who were raised jewish. It was an incredibly welcoming community.

[cynatnite]

35. Amazing grace will still get to me...

if done by a really good singer. Can't stand it on the bagpipes, though.

Otherwise, no. I haven't stepped inside a church in years and don't plan to unless it's a wedding or funeral.

[BurtWorm]

39. I have been annoyed by the meaningless ritual at the last several funerals

I've attended. Those were the last times I've been in church. I couldn't stomach how much time was devoted to Jesus and how little time was spent dealing with the actual grief of those attending.

As for sacred art, it depends on how well it's executed. Beethoven's Ninth Symphony is not sacred in any conventional sense, but I am often moved to tears when the chorus in the fourth movement suddenly belts out "Welt!" (Which means "World" and is not pronounced like the bodily prominence, in case anyone didn't know. ;) ) What if the word were "Gott!"? I don't know if I'd have the same reaction, frankly. What really hits me about that moment is that the chorus is addressing *me,* as one of this world. Of course they're addressing everyone in the world, but the power of that moment is its amazing ability to connect everyone who hears it, which is, of course, the point of the whole symphony.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

40. Humanists attend UU churches because they still search for the spiritual

They are not deists, but the ones who come to my church seek a spiritual life. It sounds contradictory, but they seem sincere in their search, so I accept their path as being what it is.

There are many paths, but only one God. Gandhi describes Truth as being "many sided" and looking different from different points of view.

(Edited to fix spelling.)

[immoderate]

41. Yes I am moved, but not by the religion.

Sometimes it's the music. A good gospel choir, rouses my emotions, just like hearing Coltrane's "A Love Supreme," which is a religious work, as are many classical pieces. Likewise for "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" which is about war and religion, two things I dislike.

I am moved at weddings, bar mitzvahs, confirmations, baptisms, etc., because they are affirmations of life and human progress.

While I am personally turned off by the supplication, and self denigration of prayer and superstitious ritual, I am for preserving culture of all types, with the exceptions of human and animal sacrifice, no matter how much god loves that stuff.

--IMM

[varkam]

42. My favorite song right now

is Ave Maria by Hans Schubert. It is a breathtakingly beautiful piece of music. Even a heartless, joyless, evil atheist like myself can be moved by a piece of religious art. I wouldn't, however, classify it any different than a secular piece of art. It's not as though it satisfies some deep cultural need in me that I'm not getting because I don't go to church.

As far as when I do go to church, mostly I just feel sad for the people around me. I know they mostly mean well, and I know they get a lot of fulfillment out of religious beliefs - so did I, at one point.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

44. I don't want anyone to think I'm a hit and run poster

I have read all your responses and thank you all. Not only does it help me understand people with other belief systems, it actually helps me understand MYSELF better. Like how much of my religious enthusiasm is actually comfort and culture? These are important things to understand. Thanks to everyone for replying to my little question.

T-Grannie the Fearsome

[edhopper]

48. I was brought up Jewish

The last time I was in temple was for a Bar Mitzvah. My two emotions were how boring it was to go though the long services in a language I didn't understand.
(Hebrew school was a long time ago). The other emotion was sadness for all the congregation. Spending all that time praying to a God that isn't there. Going over fictitious events from a non-existent past thousands of years ago (most of the old testament never happened.)
It felt like such a waste of time.
Even the Bar Mitzvah, a ceremony steeped in a tired tradition that has no relevance to todays society. Your 13 and now a Man, yeah sure.

[charles22]

51. Mostly bored.

Which was pretty much how I experienced when I was young and was forced to go to church.

[skyblue]

52. Agnostic here, like some rituals...

You feel more important when you're a part of a big group like that, especially getting invited to weddings and other ceremonies.

However, when it comes down to it and you realize that people really believe this stuff you get the twilight zone feeling. Especially when the priest sings in a catholic church, it's got that creepy cultish feeling. I wasn't raised as a Catholic, basically as a strongly anti-catholic feminist protestant.

But now with the evils of black holes, Noah's Ark, disease, death, destruction, extinction of millions of years of dinosaurs, I have certainly become an agnostic with questions about polytheism considering that fact that universe seems twisted with it's multitude of empty rocks, and multitude of species of insects.

[skyblue]

53. Adding on to my own comments.....

And if you believe in the evolutionary time line you really do have to consider the millions of years of any type of existence that occured before us so that we could live. Pretty evil that our own spec of existence in time is supposed to make up for what occured before us.

[vi5]

54. The religion or the faith doesn't move me....

..when the actions of the people match that faith and that belief, that is what moves me.

I'm not sure if you are referring to the 2 threads I started about being an atheist and attending a unitarian service. But to me it was the only time I've ever been moved during a "religious" service. Because the people were talking about things I believed in. Peace. Justice. Love. Civil Rights for all people. That was first and foremost upfront in the service. Some people then directed that to god, others to some other spirtual belief. Others, like myself linked it to nothing other than man's community with each other and kindness to fellow man.

But it was the here and now actions and the words which moved me.

When I go to church with my family (catholic, as I was raised) it sickens me. The doom, the gloom, the focus on a man's torture and suffering, the condemnation of others then attempted to be made allright by the whole "love the sinner hate the sin" bullshit. I leave catholic masses, catholic weddings and catholic funerals in a state of depression. Same for most other christian ceremonies and denominations.

I've been to jewish ceremonies and rituals and whatnot and have never felt that way. Even though I'm no more in tune with or o.k. with the jewish religion than I am with the christian religion at least judaism seems to thrive on and encourage self reflection.

[hunter]

59. I know I'm lucky to live in a liberal Catholic parish.

The Children's Mass I attended yesterday was delightful.

One of the things I enjoy about the Catholic Church is our family can go to Mass anywhere. This also means I've been to Mass in places that make my skin crawl. I've also met Priests who are just plain dim lightbulbs and not particularly loving -- who demonstrate little more than the Church's extreme problems finding good people to be Priests.

I honestly have no idea what I'd do if I lived in such a place. Find a liberal Episcopal church, maybe?

[neebob]

56. I will also add to my own comments

upthread - #22, for anyone who cares. There was a long period of time, 1980-2003ish, in which I didn't believe in the man-god I was raised on but didn't give much thought to what I believed instead. During that time, when I still believed (or maybe just wanted to believe) in spirits and universal energies and what have you, I would get chills and other physical feelings in response to certain thoughts and music - general spiritual stuff, not Mormon stuff. I would also cry watching movie Jesus be crucified.

Now, after thinking about it and deciding I absolutely do not believe in anything supernatural, I couldn't produce a tingle or a tear if I tried. For that reason, I'm fully convinced it's all in the mind.

I've thought about testing the Jesus thing by watching The Passion of the Christ, but it just sounds icky.

[CrispyQ]

58. I hate, hate, hate when Onward Christian Soldiers gets stuck in my brain!

I actually liked church. Oh, I didn't listen to the sermon, but I didn't mind an hour of day dreaming & singing. It was Sunday school I hated & I stopped going at nine.

Church is where I learned to sing harmony. You could belt it out & if you were off key, who knew? I always had a pencil so I would doodle on my program. I loved the stained glass windows & had a fave place to sit & watch the colors move across the congregation through the sermon. There was one woman who always wore a felt hat. She was very fashionable & I always checked out her outfit. When I was a kid, people dressed up for church.

I do still love Christmas carols.

[and-justice-for-all]

60. I am an Atheist, but was never poisoned by the Church....

...and their wickedness.

Those you attended any religious services can not call themselves Atheist. They are more so Agnostics, those who ride the religious fence post and can not pry themselves away from the superstitious and dogmatic pull of Religion because they feel there 'might' be a g-d but they just are not quit sure of that. Why, because it can not be proven in anyway, thats why they only have 'faith' that there is a g-d, never any proof of its existence.

Why do people believe in g-d? Because the universe is so complex that one can not begin to wrap their brain around it. So, being lazy and seeking a quick answer they just say "its g-ds will." While an Atheist will not stoop to such low levels of ignorance and short sidedness, but will seek answers through logic and science to obtain tangable proof as to why something is the way it is.

Dogmatic faith is what holds society back from progress, Religion is a fossil that is trying to survive in a world that no longer needs it.

[hunter]

61. So how come you can't type "god?"

Seems a bit superstitious to me. If I was an atheist I would say, "Bah, there is no god."

I don't believe words have any supernatural powers. It's just a data stream flowing out of my brain and through my fingers onto the internet. That dash you use to type g-d is a longer reach than the "o" and if you really mean something like g!@#$%^&*d damned just say so.

Okay, so I got the demons into the pigs, and I chased them into the water, but shit, they just swam away!

[and-justice-for-all]

64. Because I can say it however I chose to do so....thats why.

"Imaginary Friend", "dog', 'false idol', 'yahweh', 'I am'...blah, blah, blah....'g-d'.

[tomcalab]

67. Respect

One can be an atheist, and still have respect for others. I've seen "G_d" frequently used at Jewish sites.

[tomcalab]

62. I hear you, but....

Why would an atheist not go to a relative's wedding or memorial service in a church?

When did science prove that there is no God?

Why are there scientists and people with very high IQs who are not atheist? or convert from atheism?

Why would dogmatic faith affect "progress" in a country where we are free to practice any "dogmatic faith" we choose? I think that depends on what defines "progress". How does dogmatic faith affect improving our infrastucture?

I'm not invalidating any of your responses. I found them very thought provoking. Thank you for sharing them.

[and-justice-for-all]

65. I hear you, but.....

Why would an atheist not go to a relative's wedding or memorial service in a church?

- I do goto memorial service, I dont pray at them. However I do think of the person and acknowledge their passing. As for Weddings, I have only been to 3 wedding that were in a Church, others I have attend were held outside. I do not pray at weddings either.

When did science prove that there is no God?

- When did faith prove there was?

Why are there scientists and people with very high IQs who are not atheist? or convert from atheism?

- Because people are entitled to their pown perspective and interpratations. Unlike Christian Theocractic extremist ans other dangerous religions, Atheism is not a religion. There is no praising of idols or rationallity and realism as perceived by the Atheist.

- There is not converting to Atheism, that would suggest that its a religion, which it is not. Someone calling themselves an Atheist is another way of saying, 'Im not superstitutious'. If you consider someone coming to terms with reality and denounce their religious practice, them from youir persepctive they just 'converted'. But to me, its more of a reality awakening from a delusional state of false preconceived notions that their is a omnipresent being working in mysterious ways.

Why would dogmatic faith affect "progress" in a country where we are free to practice any "dogmatic faith" we choose? I think that depends on what defines "progress". How does dogmatic faith affect improving our infrastucture?

- Faith holds back progress, its the Churches Anti-Christ. Religion, in my opinion, dumbs people down and traps them with a ancient practices that no longer serves a purpose. Yes, you have to right in the US to practice the religion you see fit, to a point. If you were Wiccan, you do not brag about for fear of retribution from the hard nosed christians that litter the landscape. Why? because they are Theocratic Dominist who feel they are superior to all minority groups, there will come a day when all those who follow christianity will be forced to have rude awakening.

- Dogmantic Faith does not inprove our infrastructure, it infest them.

I'm not invalidating any of your responses. I found them very thought provoking. Thank you for sharing them.

- glad I could be of service.

[tomcalab]

66. Well Done!

I really appreciate the time you spent to respond to my questions. Thank you so much. You have really given us a great insight into the logical mind of an atheist. Well done!

[Random_Australian]

63. Oh really? So, instead of atheist meaning one who does not believe in

god, it means what you say, as in, one who has never set foot in a church.


A quick hypothetical - if someone who did not believe in god attended the funeral of a loved one, and it was in a building with a cross on the front, and another person who did not believe in god attended the funeral of a loved one in a building without a cross on the front, why is only the latter an atheist?

How is it that a little cross on the front of a building means more about a person than what is inside their head?

And people have more reasons than that to believe.

If people believed for that reason, why don't you explain the theists who "seek answers through logic and science to obtain tangable proof as to why something is the way it is"?

In other words, why don't you explain why there are theists who don't use the god-of-the-gaps?