Is a Lutheran a devout Catholic? Is an Episcopalian? Neither is Mel Gibson

[pnwmom]

I'm tired of media references to Gibson as a devout Catholic, or a fervent Catholic, or whatever. He's some kind of fundie Christian, not a Catholic.

For the record, Gibson is a member of a church founded by Gibson's father, a nutcase who doesn't believe in the Holocaust. A church that doesn't recognize the papacy and has no link to the Roman Catholic Church, except that it uses the word "Catholic" in its name.

[pagerbear]

1. FWIW

...many Episcopalians consider themselves more Catholic than Protestant, in that the Anglican church evolved in parallel to the Roman Catholic church. While there were changes to the Anglican church in reaction other Protestant factions in Europe, the Anglican church did not split from the RC church over doctrine, but rather over politics.

[pnwmom]

5. And I'm sure Gibson also considers himself a "true Catholic."

Even though he also rejects the papacy.

The point I'm making is that it's sloppy reporting to refer to him in a way that makes other people think he is a member of what is commonly referred to as the Catholic Church.

[pagerbear]

7. Ah, yes, I get your point.

[Vidar]

18. Good point.

[Goblinmonger]

28. So do you follow ALL the tenets of the RCC?

Do you think gays should be married? Do you think homosexual activity is a sin? DO you believe in birth control? Do you believe in transsubstantiation? The list could go on. If you don't believe in those things, then you are no more catholic than Gibson by your standards.

[RB TexLa]

10. Mostly but there were some debate with Rome over transubstantiation

If you put up a picture of the Pope in Episcopalian church I was married in you would never know the difference. But you can walk into some "low" Episcopalian church and think you were in a Baptist church. My wife has always thought of herself as "Anglo-Catholic."

[JVS]

11. Don't forget the 39 articles, lots of differences there

[JVS]

2. I thought Gibson was affiliated with the SSPX

in long form, the Society for the Sainthood of Pius X.

http://www.sspx.org/

According to the wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_St._Pius_X , the SSPX is not outside of the Catholic Church but has been warned that it is perilously close to engaging in schismatic behavior.

If Gibson is a parishoner in one of these Churches then he is infact a Catholic, but one that is part of a group that could get booted. On the otherhand the pressures they are putting on the Vatican may succeed in undoing some of the Vatican II changes.

I think that calling him a fundamentalist, or implying that he is a protestant as a Lutheran or Methodist would be is unfair to those groups. Fundamentalists and Protestants don't get themselves all pissed off about the replacement of the tridentine mass after Vatican II.

[pnwmom]

4. He's and his father have their own churches, which aren't Catholic.

Whatever his affiliations may have been in the past.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_464243.html

[pnwmom]

8. I'm not implying he's a Lutheran. I'm saying his Church is an offshoot of

the Catholic Church, as many Protestant Churches are.

[longship]

3. No a Lutheran is a Catholic who feels guilty about having fun.

:-)

Scandinavians are always joking about their Lutheranism and the classic Lutheran angst about having fun.

A classic flick about Scandenavian Lutheran angst: Babette's Feast. Highly recommended.

[pnwmom]

6. I loved Babette's Feast!

[JVS]

9. The people in that book were Pietists.

Which seems to be to Lutheranism what Methodism is to Anglicanism. If you ever are in a room with members of the ELCA, LCMS, and WELS all you have to do is start talking about the Pietists and they'll join together in the issuing of denunciations.

[nealmhughes]

12. yeah, I think Gibson is some sort of schismatic Latin Rite Catholic.

Probably has a retired priest on the payroll of his private chapel. The rites would be valid, as the priest's ordination would never end, but "irregular," since the bishop of the local diocese would need to license the chapel. That is to say, a old bat they drug out to mumble thru the Tridentine Latin mass would be considered a true sacramental service, any confessions he heard a valid rite of penance, etc., but not being under the authority of his bishop or abbot or whatever heads of orders are, the whole thing would be kinda "extra-ecclesiastical." I think the Gibsons are Latin-onlyers and don't recognize the authority of the Second Vatican Council. Therefore they are not in communion with Rome.

The ECLA and ECUSA are now united in sharing ministry and communion. An ordination of one is valid for the other. A theological degree from either denom is valid for ordination to either denom. Of course now women are ordained to the priesthood and diaconate and now consecrated as bishops in both groups. Lutherans and Episcopalians see RCs, the Orthodox, the Oriental Chruches and Old Catholics as being merely "separated" from themselves and not in schism or their ordinations invalid. Both churches practice open communion where anyone batized with water in the name of the Trinity are invited to partake. That is not true in some severe Lutheran and Presbyterian and the RC and some of the Orthodox.

But I guarantee you, unless it was some old school died in the wool "Rome Only!" or "Constantinople Forever!" minister, were an Episcopal or Lutheran church the only one available and they were at the point of possible death, they would be more than willing to wink at the anathemas that are handed out centuries ago...

The Eucharistic theory is nuanced in all four, but even the United Methodists now publicly claim that it is a sacrament and "something happens spiritually" to the bread and wine when the magic words are said. It's all very complicated and full of Greek and Latin phrases but boils down to the fact that Extreme Protestants, viz., Baptists, Congregationalists, Presbyterians, etc. view Communion as nothing special, just some grape juice and crackers they eat and drink every few months, while Methodists, we Ewhiskeypalians, RC, Orthodox and Lutherans do it at least every week and even daily in our big churches! Except on Good Friday, then we "reserve" it in the tabernacle....Heresy to the Baptists~!

The 39 Articles are a vestige of the Calvinistic extreme of Anglicanism and are not part of official ECUSA doctrine. They are regarded only as historical documents and not formal doctrine.

Next we shall discuss the Vestiture Controversy and the Bangor Affair, Latitudianism and the Oxford Movement as it is expressed through Italian Opera.

[RB TexLa]

13. Thanks for the info on the 39 articles

When it was put in a reply to my post I asked my wife about it, she said she hadn't heard of it and if she had she had forgotten it. I'd suspect the latter which would mean it wasn't talked about much in her church. I had to look it up not being an Episcopal or incredibly studied in their history, but I did think it didn't seem to really fit with the doctrine of the church as I know it to be, IMHO.


Edited to add

I think you are totally correct on Gibson. I've run into these "Catholic but not in Communion with Rome" people, they can be very nutty.

[pnwmom]

15. The Catholic church is a big tent, BUT

it doesn't include people who set up their own tents outside -- as Gibson and his father did, when they set up their own church with a defrocked priest.

I think that's how you can draw the line.

[pnwmom]

14. Actually, his church will be led by a "defrocked priest."

If a priest is defrocked, any rites he performed would be invalid.

And it isn't a little private chapel. It's a church with a congregation.

"Attorney Dan Hewitt, of Latrobe, a member of the Charter Oak congregation, said the building at Mountain View is being purchased by St. Michael's, which was started by the actor's 87-year-old father, who recently moved to Mt. Pleasant Township from Summersville, W.Va. Hutton Gibson could not be reached for comment.

"The church will be led by Leonard Bealko, a defrocked priest from the Greensburg Diocese who was affiliated with the Polish National Catholic Church in Rochester, N.Y., before returning to the area. Bealko, who lives in Commodore, Indiana County, could not be reached for comment."

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_464243.html

[rug]

25. The validity of the Orders is another stumbling block.

Since Leo XIII, Roman Catholic teaching is that the Anglican sacrament of Communion is invalid as its ministers lack priestly ordination, regardless of the theological nuance of the Eucharist.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01491a.htm

[greyl]

16. Are they all Christian? nt

[cosmik debris]

17. Who's to say

This is just another in the long series of threads defining "the other". Theists want to define atheists. Atheists want to define theists. Some Christians want to define other Christians. The only thing the definitions have in common is that they are never flattering definitions. I wonder if the golden rule is in effect here?

[Zhade]

19. Some theists, some atheists. Not all.

NT!

[cosmik debris]

20. My mistake. n/t

[Zhade]

21. It's cool, not annoyed, just don't want more flame wars!

You know those crazy Christians will start one.

(KIDDING! KIDDING!)

[cosmik debris]

22. That's why I asked

"I wonder if the golden rule is in effect here?"

Do the people who are posting all the defining post mind if I join in and do a little defining of my own? Is that the way they wish to be treated? I suspect that the golden rule would be suspended as soon as I got into the fray.

Thanks for being polite. That IS the way I wish to be treated.

[SPKrazy]

24. Wow, That's Interesting

why do you think any "golden rule" would a) exist on a discussion forum; b) if it did exist it would be suspended as soon as you got into the fray?

I'm really confused on this one Cosmik?

[SPKrazy]

23. That's A Little Simplistic

Catholicism is a specific sect of Christianity. The OP is saying that Gibson isn't a member of the Catholic church, but is in fact a member of a different sect that uses the Catholic name in it's name.

That isn't about someone defining someone else as anything else, it is stating a fact, he is being mischaracterized (maybe even by he, himself) as a Catholic.

I haven't seen anyone saying he "isn't a Christian". While I disagree with any sect that seems to be built around antisemitism, I don't have a right to say they aren't "Christian".

If you say you are an atheist, I don't have a right to try to define you, nor have I seen anyone here in this thread trying to define atheists either.

[Solon]

26. Actually, its more proper to say Roman Catholicism is a specific sect...

of Christianity. There are other Catholic churches, some use the Catholic name, others not, like the Maronite Church, which also recognizes Rome, in addition to many others. Generally, Protestant Churches both don't recognize the Pope's authority in addition to not following Catholic rites.

[JerseygirlCT]

27. And then there are churches that very nearly follow the rites

but don't recognize the pope!

A virtual cornucopia!